"I don't find X fun so I'm going to stop playing at the shop."
That's immature behavior. The great thing about this format is you're always in a learning curve. It's not like standard where you have to build jund or be Brian Kibler brew master to win games. Knowing the game, smart deck building, and being open to playing any strategy makes you a better pilot and deck builder in this format. EDH is for players who love discovering cards, brewing, and having an ever evolving deck. Making meta calls, tuning accordingly, and adding new cards to a deck is why we show up every week to play. When you decide X cards and X strategies are un fun and bad for the format, Just because you personally find them un fun, you're being selfish and taking away the enjoyment of the format for others.
....
For me this is terribly wrong. I love having to hit the lab to tune my deck. The shop and guys I play with magically got a huge boner for combo? Awesome! I get to dig through my cards and make adjustments. A guy put Telemin Performance in his deck just to hose my creature less dromar deck! was I mad when he played it? **** no. I laughed.
Phil, you're right in spirit about dealing with problems by adapting rather than banning them, but remember, they play in a store. A store has to do what is ultimately in its best interests. If that means house-banning things for maximum enjoyment of players in order to keep people coming into the store, then so be it.
As for having to swap cards constantly, some players may like to constantly adapt their decks (and better players know that a deck is a living entity), but I would wager that most players would rather find a shop with a stable ban-list than have to constantly wonder when something will arbitrarily be banned. Leagues are nice because they can ban something for a period, and players are generally fine, providing they have adequate notice.
Phil, you're right in spirit about dealing with problems by adapting rather than banning them, but remember, they play in a store. A store has to do what is ultimately in its best interests. If that means house-banning things for maximum enjoyment of players in order to keep people coming into the store, then so be it.
As for having to swap cards constantly, some players may like to constantly adapt their decks (and better players know that a deck is a living entity), but I would wager that most players would rather find a shop with a stable ban-list than have to constantly wonder when something will arbitrarily be banned. Leagues are nice because they can ban something for a period, and players are generally fine, providing they have adequate notice.
But if the majority of the store, say 10 players, all decide "land destruction!? Boo!" Then it Alienates the 7 other guys who have no issue with it. Case in point. Myself and about 6 others have decided not to go to one shop anymore because we're sick of the rampant proxy abuse and belly aching the majority of the players have for anything besides mindless battle cruiser. Having house rules and a like mined group is fine. But forcing values and play styles on others just because majority rules is not.
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The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
But if the majority of the store, say 10 players, all decide "land destruction!? Boo!" Then it Alienates the 7 other guys who have no issue with it. Case in point. Myself and about 6 others have decided not to go to one shop anymore because we're sick of the rampant proxy abuse and belly aching the majority of the players have for anything besides mindless battle cruiser. Having house rules and a like mined group is fine. But forcing values and play styles on others just because majority rules is not.
Well 10 out of 17 may be the majority, but not by much. There's enough players that want to play MLD that you should be able to either socially come to an agreement or play in different pods. As for the proxying, you're proving my point. If a LGS fosters an environment that people don't like, those people won't play and their patronage will decline. I suspect that at Sheldon's shop, the majority of players there enjoy a certain style, and thus can come to social agreements.
We're getting side-tracked from the actual banlist though.
However, this seems to add much value to such banlist discussions.
More then lets say, another ban Sylvan Primordial discussion..
Here's the issue (and I'm speaking as myself and not a mod):
- This thread is supposed to be solely for discussing the actual ban list.
- The ban list is designed from a certain mindset and towards a targeted group of players.
- To change the way the ban list is approached, we must discuss who makes up the majority of EDH players and what level of competition is acceptable.
- There is already an existing thread for the eternal debate over how competitive EDH is.
So you see, there's a fine line about what it on-topic for this thread. Add to this that EDH is a social format and groups should adjust how they play accordingly, and taking discussions outside of the actual ban list is a recipe for arguments and infractions on this thread.
As a mod, if you can keep the discussion relevant to the ban list, I don't care what you talk about so long as it remains civil. I agree that fresh discussion beats rehashed arguments about the same cards.
An interesting idea I had was multiple banned lists.
What if Wizards released multiple banned lists that could be agreed upon by a group?
For example:
Level 1 banned list - The casual list:
This list removes mass LD and many combo pieces. This caters to the battlecruiser magic that some enjoy.
Level 2 banned list - The normal list:
Uses the current banned list. Sort of an intermediate list. Allows combo and fast decks, but limits some of the highly degenerate things.
Level 3 banned list - Duel list:
A WotC version of the French list, for 1v1 players. This would also benefit the people that do not like the explosiveness of artifact ramp and cheap tutors.
Now, I know that this is a casual format and that entitles groups to make their own rules, but I'd bet there would be a lot less strife if WotC gave people set choices rather than forcing them to moderate their own banned list.
But people already have these options. You're just giving them the WotC logo.
That's pretty much the point.
Many players have an incredibly skewed opinion on what is ban-worthy or not. If the people in charge of regulating the EDH provide ban list options to allow players to achieve their desired meta, then you will see a lot less issue within groups. I know someone that is utterly convinced that Putrefy is broken because it's better than Terror or another guy that just ragequits when his spells get countered. I'm sure everyone knows someone like that, but I'm sure most of us can agree that Putrefy and counterspells do not need banning.
What if Wizards released multiple banned lists that could be agreed upon by a group?
The problem is that requires a group to agree on a list. Any stable group with few incoming/outgoing members should probably consider having a supplemental or alternative banlist based on the feelings of the group that uses the official list as a starting point. The primary point to having an official list is so that players who have never met can play a game without having to worry about certain things (namely, the cards on the banlist and having to come up with a list for that match). While I think of my 'meta' as the bar I've taken to playing magic at most frequently, I additionally play at three shops at varying frequencies, occasionally additional shops that I happen to be near, and a school. Adding extra lists would slow every game with unfamiliar players down and add the bookkeeping of 'I use these for this list, those for that list' and just remembering each list.
(Also, I can't really imagine a list for the casual ruleset that would be able to stop fast and powerful combos if that's what a player wanted, unless, perhaps, if deck searching was banned.)
What if Wizards released multiple banned lists that could be agreed upon by a group?
This presents a deck building problem. Hypothetical situation:
I show up at new LGS with my Level 2 banned list legal deck (I only have 1 and really want to get into Commander!). But everyone else at the store plays with Level 1 banned list rules.
I decide to go to a different store, where people play with Level 3 banned list decks.
I can't play without modifying my deck significantly or having multiple decks built to meet different banned list standards. "Commander is too hard! There are too many banned cards/lists!" I don't get to play any games and never go back to either store.
An interesting idea I had was multiple banned lists.
What if Wizards released multiple banned lists that could be agreed upon by a group?
For example:
Level 1 banned list - The casual list:
This list removes mass LD and many combo pieces. This caters to the battlecruiser magic that some enjoy.
Level 2 banned list - The normal list:
Uses the current banned list. Sort of an intermediate list. Allows combo and fast decks, but limits some of the highly degenerate things.
Level 3 banned list - Duel list:
A WotC version of the French list, for 1v1 players. This would also benefit the people that do not like the explosiveness of artifact ramp and cheap tutors.
Now, I know that this is a casual format and that entitles groups to make their own rules, but I'd bet there would be a lot less strife if WotC gave people set choices rather than forcing them to moderate their own banned list.
Many players have an incredibly skewed opinion on what is ban-worthy or not. If the people in charge of regulating the EDH provide ban list options to allow players to achieve their desired meta, then you will see a lot less issue within groups. I know someone that is utterly convinced that Putrefy is broken because it's better than Terror or another guy that just ragequits when his spells get countered. I'm sure everyone knows someone like that, but I'm sure most of us can agree that Putrefy and counterspells do not need banning.
Well first, WotC doesn't regulate the ban list, the Rules Committee does, which is a separate entity from Wizards.
Second, you're trading the convenience of having one list that a person can comfortably build around and know that they can probably take into an unknown meta for having a "set" banlist which relies on all players evaluating their decks similarly.
Whether you have one list or multiple lists, if a person thinks "casual" is no counterspells and one person thinks anything but MLD and combo is casual, you're still going to be at a disagreement.
Guys I was thinking, would a ban on Mycosynth Lattice be justified? Its far from the most broken of cards and seems relatively innocuous but...
... I can't think of any legitimate uses for the card. Its used in arcum daggson for a very unfun combo, it works very awkwardly with march of the machines, hellkite tyrant and vandalblast. But I can't think of any other reasons people run it.
Do I think this card needs banning? Not necessarily. But would the format be better off without it? I think it would. What do you reckon? Intelligent responses, rather than the vitriolic flaming associated with this thread, would be nice
Guys I was thinking, would a ban on Mycosynth Lattice be justified? Its far from the most broken of cards and seems relatively innocuous but...
... I can't think of any legitimate uses for the card. Its used in arcum daggson for a very unfun combo, it works very awkwardly with march of the machines, hellkite tyrant and vandalblast. But I can't think of any other reasons people run it.
Do I think this card needs banning? Not necessarily. But would the format be better off without it? I think it would. What do you reckon? Intelligent responses, rather than the vitriolic flaming associated with this thread, would be nice
I think if you have to preface it with "Its far from the most broken of cards and seems relatively innocuous but..." then it's probably not worth a ban.
For more of an answer you're looking for, there's absolutely no reason to put that in your deck unless you have specific intentions (like Darksteel Forge to protect everything, or Vandalblast to blow up everything). Frankly, the only time this card is going to accidentally ruin a game is when Player 1 drops it and Player 2 casts Vandalblast. But, as I stated, it's not a card that is casually played, so that's probably Player 1's fault for not having DSF out yet.
Cards like ML shouldn't be banned because you can't stop a player from "ruining" a game with an obscure combo without a very long ban list. Besides, if someone drops ML and then Vandalblasts, it should be a very short game after that. If it isn't that player did it wrong and should be socially corrected.
I doubt I ever thought of it being banned, but now that you mention it, I feel like I see it used like once a week and every time it ends up paired with Karn, Silver Golem, Nevinyrral's Disk, or something similar. I don't know if I would go so far as to say it's ban worthy, but I've seen it cause some scoops.
... I can't think of any legitimate uses for the card. Its used in arcum daggson for a very unfun combo, it works very awkwardly with march of the machines, hellkite tyrant and vandalblast. But I can't think of any other reasons people run it.
It's so much fun, especially with Sen Triplets. Sadly I had to cut it; I just don't think it's good enough to run, at least in my decks. If you want to blow up everything there are easier ways to do it. It's a cool win condition in Scion with Hellkite, but you have to connect. If Hellkite gets removed you've opened yourself up to MLD and that kind of owns five color voltron.
So, ignoring the fact that I enjoy everything you are complaining about: the card just isn't bannable. It's a dead draw a great deal of the time and does nothing by itself. If Bitter Ordeal isn't bannable then this card sure as heck isn't.
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If combo should die before I wake I'll slide a Smokestack in every deck I play, roll in every shop wreck the Spirit of EDH.
Lattice's only real issue (IMO) is when the guy playing it intends to drop Null Rod/Stony Silence and force everyone at the table to concede. That's more of an issue with those two not excluding mana abilities though.
Lattice's only real issue (IMO) is when the guy playing it intends to drop Null Rod/Stony Silence and force everyone at the table to concede. That's more of an issue with those two not excluding mana abilities though.
There are other hard locks that aren't banned though.
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If combo should die before I wake I'll slide a Smokestack in every deck I play, roll in every shop wreck the Spirit of EDH.
There are other hard locks that aren't banned though.
To be fair, this lock stops everyone from doing anything but attacking/blocking. At least with Tefari/Pool, the controller can still progress the game.
Personally I would like to see Protean Hulk, come off the banned list.
Here is my argument. For what it does, there are better, faster, cheaper ways to do it. It can add an effect to other colors that it might otherwise not have. It's 5GG for a 6/6 that has to make it to the graveyard for it's ability to trigger. It allows instant recovery after a board wipe.
Arguments against; Flash (nobody plays this anyways). Requires 2+ colors to abuse heavily. It's almost more of a setup card, as opposed to an efficient beatstick. It might start a clone war, but not more then C. Sphinx. I don't think.
I just feel that there are more scarier things out there than the hulk, especially with the primordials and the ETB triggers.
The time has long passed for the perceived notion of how abusive this creature might be.
To be fair, this lock stops everyone from doing anything but attacking/blocking. At least with Tefari/Pool, the controller can still progress the game.
Personally I would like to see Protean Hulk, come off the banned list.
Here is my argument. For what it does, there are better, faster, cheaper ways to do it. It can add an effect to other colors that it might otherwise not have. It's 5GG for a 6/6 that has to make it to the graveyard for it's ability to trigger. It allows instant recovery after a board wipe.
Arguments against; Flash (nobody plays this anyways). Requires 2+ colors to abuse heavily. It's almost more of a setup card, as opposed to an efficient beatstick. It might start a clone war, but not more then C. Sphinx. I don't think.
I just feel that there are more scarier things out there than the hulk, especially with the primordials and the ETB triggers.
The time has long passed for the perceived notion of how abusive this creature might be.
The Hulk, on its OWN, wins games. Sac out lets are plentiful. Creature choices are infinite. And now with Malestrom, you can even cascade into it.
The Hulk, on its OWN, wins games. Sac out lets are plentiful. Creature choices are infinite. And now with Malestrom, you can even cascade into it.
Ban forever.
Oh god, please unban hulk. I will steal my buddy's Kresh deck. Then unban Primetime and Griselbrand and Channel and Balance and Gifts and Nightmare. So much fun!
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If combo should die before I wake I'll slide a Smokestack in every deck I play, roll in every shop wreck the Spirit of EDH.
Personally I would like to see Protean Hulk, come off the banned list.
Here is my argument. For what it does, there are better, faster, cheaper ways to do it. It can add an effect to other colors that it might otherwise not have. It's 5GG for a 6/6 that has to make it to the graveyard for it's ability to trigger. It allows instant recovery after a board wipe.
Arguments against; Flash (nobody plays this anyways). Requires 2+ colors to abuse heavily. It's almost more of a setup card, as opposed to an efficient beatstick. It might start a clone war, but not more then C. Sphinx. I don't think.
I just feel that there are more scarier things out there than the hulk, especially with the primordials and the ETB triggers.
The time has long passed for the perceived notion of how abusive this creature might be.
I think this card is pretty dangerous, but to get truly degenerate with it you need to be in 2+ colors and know exactly what you're doing. I want it legal so I can abuse the heck out of it, but it's probably better off banned as an efficient tutor.
True, but as I said before, this only hits your opponents so you can still go on to with the game. Lattice/Null Rod stops everyone from doing anything except attacking.
Phil, you're right in spirit about dealing with problems by adapting rather than banning them, but remember, they play in a store. A store has to do what is ultimately in its best interests. If that means house-banning things for maximum enjoyment of players in order to keep people coming into the store, then so be it.
As for having to swap cards constantly, some players may like to constantly adapt their decks (and better players know that a deck is a living entity), but I would wager that most players would rather find a shop with a stable ban-list than have to constantly wonder when something will arbitrarily be banned. Leagues are nice because they can ban something for a period, and players are generally fine, providing they have adequate notice.
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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What up, Steiny! lol this thread has so much mad
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But if the majority of the store, say 10 players, all decide "land destruction!? Boo!" Then it Alienates the 7 other guys who have no issue with it. Case in point. Myself and about 6 others have decided not to go to one shop anymore because we're sick of the rampant proxy abuse and belly aching the majority of the players have for anything besides mindless battle cruiser. Having house rules and a like mined group is fine. But forcing values and play styles on others just because majority rules is not.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Well 10 out of 17 may be the majority, but not by much. There's enough players that want to play MLD that you should be able to either socially come to an agreement or play in different pods. As for the proxying, you're proving my point. If a LGS fosters an environment that people don't like, those people won't play and their patronage will decline. I suspect that at Sheldon's shop, the majority of players there enjoy a certain style, and thus can come to social agreements.
We're getting side-tracked from the actual banlist though.
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
However, this seems to add much value to such banlist discussions.
More then lets say, another ban Sylvan Primordial discussion..
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Here's the issue (and I'm speaking as myself and not a mod):
- This thread is supposed to be solely for discussing the actual ban list.
- The ban list is designed from a certain mindset and towards a targeted group of players.
- To change the way the ban list is approached, we must discuss who makes up the majority of EDH players and what level of competition is acceptable.
- There is already an existing thread for the eternal debate over how competitive EDH is.
So you see, there's a fine line about what it on-topic for this thread. Add to this that EDH is a social format and groups should adjust how they play accordingly, and taking discussions outside of the actual ban list is a recipe for arguments and infractions on this thread.
As a mod, if you can keep the discussion relevant to the ban list, I don't care what you talk about so long as it remains civil. I agree that fresh discussion beats rehashed arguments about the same cards.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
What if Wizards released multiple banned lists that could be agreed upon by a group?
For example:
Now, I know that this is a casual format and that entitles groups to make their own rules, but I'd bet there would be a lot less strife if WotC gave people set choices rather than forcing them to moderate their own banned list.
That's pretty much the point.
Many players have an incredibly skewed opinion on what is ban-worthy or not. If the people in charge of regulating the EDH provide ban list options to allow players to achieve their desired meta, then you will see a lot less issue within groups. I know someone that is utterly convinced that Putrefy is broken because it's better than Terror or another guy that just ragequits when his spells get countered. I'm sure everyone knows someone like that, but I'm sure most of us can agree that Putrefy and counterspells do not need banning.
Well, all groups I know irl don't use their "options" and use this banlist.
It's due to situations like,
"let's play without the sundering titan ban"
and when he hits the field,
"omg he should really be banned and I shall take this excuse as the reason I'm losing and scoop with lots of rage and swear words"
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
The problem is that requires a group to agree on a list. Any stable group with few incoming/outgoing members should probably consider having a supplemental or alternative banlist based on the feelings of the group that uses the official list as a starting point. The primary point to having an official list is so that players who have never met can play a game without having to worry about certain things (namely, the cards on the banlist and having to come up with a list for that match). While I think of my 'meta' as the bar I've taken to playing magic at most frequently, I additionally play at three shops at varying frequencies, occasionally additional shops that I happen to be near, and a school. Adding extra lists would slow every game with unfamiliar players down and add the bookkeeping of 'I use these for this list, those for that list' and just remembering each list.
(Also, I can't really imagine a list for the casual ruleset that would be able to stop fast and powerful combos if that's what a player wanted, unless, perhaps, if deck searching was banned.)
This presents a deck building problem. Hypothetical situation:
I show up at new LGS with my Level 2 banned list legal deck (I only have 1 and really want to get into Commander!). But everyone else at the store plays with Level 1 banned list rules.
I decide to go to a different store, where people play with Level 3 banned list decks.
I can't play without modifying my deck significantly or having multiple decks built to meet different banned list standards. "Commander is too hard! There are too many banned cards/lists!" I don't get to play any games and never go back to either store.
Commander dies...
Well first, WotC doesn't regulate the ban list, the Rules Committee does, which is a separate entity from Wizards.
Second, you're trading the convenience of having one list that a person can comfortably build around and know that they can probably take into an unknown meta for having a "set" banlist which relies on all players evaluating their decks similarly.
Whether you have one list or multiple lists, if a person thinks "casual" is no counterspells and one person thinks anything but MLD and combo is casual, you're still going to be at a disagreement.
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... I can't think of any legitimate uses for the card. Its used in arcum daggson for a very unfun combo, it works very awkwardly with march of the machines, hellkite tyrant and vandalblast. But I can't think of any other reasons people run it.
Do I think this card needs banning? Not necessarily. But would the format be better off without it? I think it would. What do you reckon? Intelligent responses, rather than the vitriolic flaming associated with this thread, would be nice
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
I think if you have to preface it with "Its far from the most broken of cards and seems relatively innocuous but..." then it's probably not worth a ban.
For more of an answer you're looking for, there's absolutely no reason to put that in your deck unless you have specific intentions (like Darksteel Forge to protect everything, or Vandalblast to blow up everything). Frankly, the only time this card is going to accidentally ruin a game is when Player 1 drops it and Player 2 casts Vandalblast. But, as I stated, it's not a card that is casually played, so that's probably Player 1's fault for not having DSF out yet.
Cards like ML shouldn't be banned because you can't stop a player from "ruining" a game with an obscure combo without a very long ban list. Besides, if someone drops ML and then Vandalblasts, it should be a very short game after that. If it isn't that player did it wrong and should be socially corrected.
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I doubt I ever thought of it being banned, but now that you mention it, I feel like I see it used like once a week and every time it ends up paired with Karn, Silver Golem, Nevinyrral's Disk, or something similar. I don't know if I would go so far as to say it's ban worthy, but I've seen it cause some scoops.
It's so much fun, especially with Sen Triplets. Sadly I had to cut it; I just don't think it's good enough to run, at least in my decks. If you want to blow up everything there are easier ways to do it. It's a cool win condition in Scion with Hellkite, but you have to connect. If Hellkite gets removed you've opened yourself up to MLD and that kind of owns five color voltron.
So, ignoring the fact that I enjoy everything you are complaining about: the card just isn't bannable. It's a dead draw a great deal of the time and does nothing by itself. If Bitter Ordeal isn't bannable then this card sure as heck isn't.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
Driving Stick with Isochron Scepter.
Trinkets and Treasure: An Artificer's Toolbox.
Proc Drops: Playing with One Drops.
Deck Primer: Toshiro Umezawa
There are other hard locks that aren't banned though.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
To be fair, this lock stops everyone from doing anything but attacking/blocking. At least with Tefari/Pool, the controller can still progress the game.
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Here is my argument. For what it does, there are better, faster, cheaper ways to do it. It can add an effect to other colors that it might otherwise not have. It's 5GG for a 6/6 that has to make it to the graveyard for it's ability to trigger. It allows instant recovery after a board wipe.
Arguments against; Flash (nobody plays this anyways). Requires 2+ colors to abuse heavily. It's almost more of a setup card, as opposed to an efficient beatstick. It might start a clone war, but not more then C. Sphinx. I don't think.
I just feel that there are more scarier things out there than the hulk, especially with the primordials and the ETB triggers.
The time has long passed for the perceived notion of how abusive this creature might be.
Linvala, Keeper of Silence + Living Plane/Nature's Revolt is a thing, and fairly early.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
The Hulk, on its OWN, wins games. Sac out lets are plentiful. Creature choices are infinite. And now with Malestrom, you can even cascade into it.
Ban forever.
Oh god, please unban hulk. I will steal my buddy's Kresh deck. Then unban Primetime and Griselbrand and Channel and Balance and Gifts and Nightmare. So much fun!
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
I think this card is pretty dangerous, but to get truly degenerate with it you need to be in 2+ colors and know exactly what you're doing. I want it legal so I can abuse the heck out of it, but it's probably better off banned as an efficient tutor.
True, but as I said before, this only hits your opponents so you can still go on to with the game. Lattice/Null Rod stops everyone from doing anything except attacking.
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Not if you can generate mana as a triggered ability Black Market, Braid of Fire, Carpet of Flowers... still it's a pretty hard lock.