As long as everyone is playing the same level of thread of deck so the game is close, be it cutthroat or casual is where good games happen.
I completely agree, but that's why I always find it so frustrating when people on these forums will say stuff like "mass LD, that's not commander!" Or when we have a banned list with stuff like Kokusho and Sway of the Stars because they're "unfun," not because they're even remotely overpowered.
I enjoy a wide range of playstyles, including very casual ones, but I wish more people had a grasp of the concept that cutthroat games can be fun too.
I completely agree, but that's why I always find it so frustrating when people on these forums will say stuff like "mass LD, that's not commander!" Or when we have a banned list with stuff like Kokusho and Sway of the Stars because they're "unfun," not because they're even remotely overpowered.
I enjoy a wide range of playstyles, including very casual ones, but I wish more people had a grasp of the concept that cutthroat games can be fun too.
Kokusho I agree with, he's not remotely overpowered without Recurring Nightmare to power him. Sway of the Stars if it resolves basically starts the game over. I can see why people label it unfun, and one spell basically completely restarting a game (I'm looking at you Karn Liberated) can outright suck the fun out of an evening.
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I think you can just sum up everything this way: The only way you play competitive is if you become the Rules Nazi(play as though you were in a tournament with tournament rules and such) or are a bully(means you go to a place with sub optimal decks with your excessively optimal deck and enjoy smashing their face in). This is just how I view it. Play a good deck against other good decks is not a cut throat environment. That is how the environment evolved. If you go into it and get your face smashed in with your Craw Wurm.dec then that is not the groups fault. You need to adapt to your surroundings. If you are the minority in the group you need to adapt. Complaining about how the other decks are better than yours isn't going to change your deck. Now I am a casual player. I find playing a good fun deck(however you define fun)to be good. I expect you to make the best possible play you can make. Anything less is just insulting me.
I think you can just sum up everything this way: The only way you play competitive is if you become the Rules Nazi(play as though you were in a tournament with tournament rules and such) or are a bully(means you go to a place with sub optimal decks with your excessively optimal deck and enjoy smashing their face in). This is just how I view it. Play a good deck against other good decks is not a cut throat environment. That is how the environment evolved. If you go into it and get your face smashed in with your Craw Wurm.dec then that is not the groups fault. You need to adapt to your surroundings. If you are the minority in the group you need to adapt. Complaining about how the other decks are better than yours isn't going to change your deck. Now I am a casual player. I find playing a good fun deck(however you define fun)to be good. I expect you to make the best possible play you can make. Anything less is just insulting me.
This is what I have been trying to explain to my playgroup for a long time. I think the ultimate truth of EDH is versatility. A good deck is perpared for any and all situations no matter how crazy/unlikely/almost unbeatable the situation may be.
Many EDH players would call it cutthroat - lots of mass LD, infinite combos encouraged, etc. At the same time, everybody's just playing to have fun, we don't really care that much about winning, we let people take back misplays, we drink a beer, we laugh and have a good time.
I agree with you on that, and while we were all playing reasonably serious decks, nobody was playing the role of a rule lawyer or acting overly grumpy about things. The Isamaru player who was most crippled by the rolling LD laughed at one point and revealed an Armageddon in his hand, stating it was the worst possible draw in that game.
I also agree with you on your concept of epic games, the one before that I spell jacked a Mirrari's Wake, and then someone resolved the new Wildfire, so all of my lands except one were blown up. Next turn I dropped another land and played Mirrari's Wake, having enough to cast a Mind over Matter and draw into another combo using that plus temple bell. I needed one more land drop to win or one more card in hand, so I passed the turn and it was a tense moment as the Red Akroma LD played thought if he could kill me that turn or not. These games just created a lot of interesting and tense moments when nobody was quite sure of how things would end.
Oh, and I generally bring a couple decks with me, one always being more combo-LD-Cutthroat goodness and the other being a more creature rawr-smash slower deck, so that whichever group I'm playing with I can be in the right power level to some extent.
Went to the LGS to play some 4 man pods today and was completely disappointed. People are playing EDH decks that can go off turn 4 or 5. We seriously played 3, 4 man pods in less than an hour. It seems that everyone is playing prison/combo/lock the game down type decks and do it extremely fast. Either you have to build specificly for said decks or just lose.
Went to the LGS to play some 4 man pods today and was completely disappointed. People are playing EDH decks that can go off turn 4 or 5. We seriously played 3, 4 man pods in less than an hour. It seems that everyone is playing prison/combo/lock the game down type decks and do it extremely fast. Either you have to build specificly for said decks or just lose.
Just find a playgroup that doesnt do that. You should be okay. Some guys I play with do that, and granted some of MY decks do that too but then again others dont.
Went to the LGS to play some 4 man pods today and was completely disappointed. People are playing EDH decks that can go off turn 4 or 5. We seriously played 3, 4 man pods in less than an hour. It seems that everyone is playing prison/combo/lock the game down type decks and do it extremely fast. Either you have to build specificly for said decks or just lose.
I wouldn't exactly say that, as a deck that isn't built to specifically hate such decks can still be fine against them, given that it's built well. Last week we had a game with Combo Oona, my Hanna deck, a Kaalia deck, and a Kresh deck.
The Oona deck, despite having plenty of heavy mana out really wasn't getting very far, as the Kresh player tutored and played a Damping Matrix shutting out Oona and Helm, without hurting himself very much aside from being able to sacrifice Sakura Tribe-Elder, while Attrition kept other creatures in check. I ended up countering his Mind over Matter and the game kept going even if the Kaalia player wasn't really in it because his mana wasn't showing up.
In short, the Kresh player won in a game that went for over an hour of back and forth, even though there were a bunch of fast decks. He didn't play anything he wouldn't want to play anyway and was able to pretty much hate out most of the combos effectively. It's not that you have to tailor your deck to beat them, it's just that you need to have a specific plan that also disrupts them in the process of accomplishing your goals... Oh, and it helps when at least three players are running decks with similar power levels as to keep things balanced as opposed to two having to balance each other out alone.
I wouldn't exactly say that, as a deck that isn't built to specifically hate such decks can still be fine against them, given that it's built well. Last week we had a game with Combo Oona, my Hanna deck, a Kaalia deck, and a Kresh deck.
The Oona deck, despite having plenty of heavy mana out really wasn't getting very far, as the Kresh player tutored and played a Damping Matrix shutting out Oona and Helm, without hurting himself very much aside from being able to sacrifice Sakura Tribe-Elder, while Attrition kept other creatures in check. I ended up countering his Mind over Matter and the game kept going even if the Kaalia player wasn't really in it because his mana wasn't showing up.
In short, the Kresh player won in a game that went for over an hour of back and forth, even though there were a bunch of fast decks. He didn't play anything he wouldn't want to play anyway and was able to pretty much hate out most of the combos effectively. It's not that you have to tailor your deck to beat them, it's just that you need to have a specific plan that also disrupts them in the process of accomplishing your goals... Oh, and it helps when at least three players are running decks with similar power levels as to keep things balanced as opposed to two having to balance each other out alone.
The table consisted of 1 Arcum Dagsson deck, 1 Jhoira deck, one mono blue deck (forgot his commander), and me playing Rafiq. It was a table full of controlish combo type decks but the Arcum and Jhoira decks were incredibily fast and powerful. The mono blue player ran out of counters or mana every game and I just couldnt answer every threat they threw at us. It more or less felt like the Jhoira and Arcum decks were playing a 1 v 1 game with me and the mono blue guy as just speed bumps to the 'real game'.
I was just simply amazed at how fast and consistant those 2 decks were for being 100 card singleton decks.
The table consisted of 1 Arcum Dagsson deck, 1 Jhoira deck, one mono blue deck (forgot his commander), and me playing Rafiq. It was a table full of controlish combo type decks but the Arcum and Jhoira decks were incredibily fast and powerful. The mono blue player ran out of counters or mana every game and I just couldnt answer every threat they threw at us. It more or less felt like the Jhoira and Arcum decks were playing a 1 v 1 game with me and the mono blue guy as just speed bumps to the 'real game'.
I was just simply amazed at how fast and consistant those 2 decks were for being 100 card singleton decks.
Arcum and Jhoira are very powerful generals and I won't deny that they can easily be some of the most degenerate ones when it comes to EDH. However, it sounds like the two of you were answering their decks in a very temporary manner that let them play that 1 on 1 game. Both of their decks are rather general dependant and a single tuck, Declaration of Naught, Damping Matrix, or whatever should be enough to at least slow them down enough for you to manage them.
I mean I can see that some generals are harder to deal with than others, but I doubt you have to build to specifically beat each general separately, to the extent that you're deviating from your initial game play to an extreme extent.
I have just got into Commander. I was previously a pretty cut throat 100 card singleton player.
I picked up Ghave and started to refine the deck from an aggro build to a more combo themed deck. The transition sort of happened on its own.
I noticed when someone would whine that my deck wasnt casual enough also went with that they were really bad at assesing the board state prior to me comboing out. If anything else they were too busy trying to mana ramp or too focused that someone played a money card like Bayou.
The worst part isnt me playing combo even though everyone tapped out or didnt attempt to join forces to disrupt me. The worst part is the person who starts complaining that playing combo is an auto win or boring. In the end all this does is stifle everyones ability to improve. Every deck should have a way to deal with aggro or contol/combo. Investing in Money cards isnt the solution as much as being able to get over one's ego and address where problems as a deck builder/player are.
I am always impressed when someone points out that I play an overpowered money deck when I play something like Bayou, but won't pay attention when I play Crop Rotation.
The table consisted of 1 Arcum Dagsson deck, 1 Jhoira deck, one mono blue deck (forgot his commander), and me playing Rafiq. It was a table full of controlish combo type decks but the Arcum and Jhoira decks were incredibily fast and powerful. The mono blue player ran out of counters or mana every game and I just couldnt answer every threat they threw at us. It more or less felt like the Jhoira and Arcum decks were playing a 1 v 1 game with me and the mono blue guy as just speed bumps to the 'real game'.
I was just simply amazed at how fast and consistant those 2 decks were for being 100 card singleton decks.
It sounds like you're experiencing the competitive multiplayer EDH meta for the first time. Many decks have the potential to go off really fast, but those decks are also pretty easily disrupted if your deck is built correctly. It's not that you need to run specific hosers, it's just that you need to get a feel for what's good and bad in a competitive meta.
I mean, imagine you'd just played kitchen table standard your whole life, so bomby stuff (like Sphinx of Uthuun or whatever) seems amazing to you. Then you go to an FNM where every deck is tuned and it's going to seem like these lightning fast and consistent strategies are unbeatable. Obviously they're very beatable, but you can't bring your casual Sphinx deck and expect to make a splash. This isn't me saying your deck is bad, or anything, I have no idea what your deck is like. All I'm trying to say is that what works in a casual meta (play lots of big spells, don't run much spot removal) doesn't fly in cutthroat metas.
It sounds like you're experiencing the competitive multiplayer EDH meta for the first time. Many decks have the potential to go off really fast, but those decks are also pretty easily disrupted if your deck is built correctly. It's not that you need to run specific hosers, it's just that you need to get a feel for what's good and bad in a competitive meta.
I mean, imagine you'd just played kitchen table standard your whole life, so bomby stuff (like Sphinx of Uthuun or whatever) seems amazing to you. Then you go to an FNM where every deck is tuned and it's going to seem like these lightning fast and consistent strategies are unbeatable. Obviously they're very beatable, but you can't bring your casual Sphinx deck and expect to make a splash. This isn't me saying your deck is bad, or anything, I have no idea what your deck is like. All I'm trying to say is that what works in a casual meta (play lots of big spells, don't run much spot removal) doesn't fly in cutthroat metas.
Actually I have been playing competitive EDH for quite some time. Just have not come across decks that were immune to alot of the things you mention as cards that slow them down. I was raised on cutthroat metas ;). Its just when you grip one of the guys combo pieces and he goes oh o.k., and resolves another combo to lock you out or kill you turn 4 or 5 its annoying. It was like knowing you were going to die, just pick your way of doing it.
In my opinion, it depends largely on the card choices ... looking at them you see if somebody is competitive and serious about the game. Also competitive games can be fun. Everybody should have to chance to play the deck several rounds. However, where I play maybe the nationals' side event of commander is the most serious event. I mean, you don't win money or something in this format. Serious may be more the term of passion and knowledge with and about the format (and tuning up a personal deck), but not just kill turn five ... it's like just said before, you can't just stop people from going crazy with there combos, they have to much backup, a full hand, and and and ... and maybe a commander like Azusa or Sharum ... I don't play flavor decks myself, but there's something between weakness and brokenness.
In my opinion, it depends largely on the card choices ... looking at them you see if somebody is competitive and serious about the game. Also competitive games can be fun. Everybody should have to chance to play the deck several rounds. However, where I play maybe the nationals' side event of commander is the most serious event. I mean, you don't win money or something in this format. Serious may be more the term of passion and knowledge with and about the format (and tuning up a personal deck), but not just kill turn five ... it's like just said before, you can't just stop people from going crazy with there combos, they have to much backup, a full hand, and and and ... and maybe a commander like Azusa or Sharum ... I don't play flavor decks myself, but there's something between weakness and brokenness.
Honestly if you want to break down the specific differences between casual and competitive it comes to a few things.
1) Attitude. If you're going into it with a "I will win no matter what" attitude you're playing competitively regardless of anything else. If you're going into it with a "I'm going to try to win but if I don't it's not like it really matters" then you're in a casual mindset and will play casually most likely.
2) Cards. You're running Sharuum combo control, you're probably playing it competitively. You could be playing it casually though, and not making all the "optimal" plays for sake of winning, and playing "badly" to an extent just to see what everyone else is doing. At that point you become more of a casual player at the time. Or you can run craw-blade.dec and just be interested in turning your creatures sideways, alternately you could run it with a cut-throat I'm gonna surprise win everyone kind of mindset and move to the competitive scale.
3)Knowledge. You know every single in and out, rules hiccup, and nuance to every major deck archetype and you've got a counter strategy for most of them. Congrats on your competitive deck and playstyle. I know absolutely nothing about this game but I'm going to win regardless of the fact. Also competitive. I've been playing since Alpha I've got full playsets of P9 and I have a signed original print run Necropotence, but I kinda want to try out this really weird Atogatog build and see if it's fun or not. You're more in the casual mindset.
4)Meta. My group plays mostly Sharuum, Zur, Omnath, and Azusa decks that are tuned and optimized. You're probably gravitating to a more competitive playstyle. My group runs Ashling the Extinguisher, Garza Zol, Sisters of Stonedeath, and one guy has a Genju of the Realms deck that isn't really a legal general but the deck is kinda cool so we really don't care. That's a more casual group and you probably are a more casual player.
All that said though, you can be a mix of Casual and Competitive. "I run Zur but I don't really like how broken some of the things he does can get so I don't run Necropotence, and everyone knows I don't so I get a little less hate than most Zur players." That's an example of a mix of casual and competitive. Or "I run Lyzolda the Blood Witch but I've ramped in a few extra things like Reiterate Wild Ricochet Wake of Destruction and Pox just to keep other people from building against me while I build up my 6 piece sac engine combo of doom." Would be another competitive/casual mix.
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all i know is people who make decks with infinite combos are annoying. I have basically just timmy decks with tokens and dragons for blatant ridiculous, answerable fun. Meanwhile I got this guy next to me who combos out turn 3. We just look at him and go "yeah, you won. Cool, were gonna keep playing.. see ya"
And we just continue on. Its meant to be at a table with people. Big decks, lots of cards, and crazy interactions on the board (especially multi-player) not combo out then just win. To which everyone looks at you and is disgusted. Thats just my opinion.
I play enough competitive standard to want to just have some fun with a format thats blatantly for people to have a good time making a themed deck.
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I've been a judge at our local store for a few years now, and we've been havingUltimately, whether play is being casual or competitive is up to the players to decide. I think it's pretty obvious that if you go to a competitive REL event, and enroll in one of the commander side events, everyone there is going to be playing for blood. That's pretty clearly competitive.
It's when you play with your friends at your local store, or maybe late one night at one of your apartments, that you get into the "is this competitive or casual" question.
I think there is a heavy correlation between infinite combos (whether they be infinite mana, damage, draw, turns, whatever) and the casual/competitive aspect. Notice that I used the word correlation. A lot of people have heard the phrase "correlation does not equal causation." Just because there is a correlation does not mean that one causes the other. I believe there is a correlation between the two, but an infinite loop does not necessarily mean that you're playing competitively. I think they just happen more often in competitive play, because... well, you're trying to win the game, and win it in the most aggressive way possible... and that often uses infinite combos to remove the rest of the players in one go.
I think the single determining factor in this age-old dispute is this: the players' attitudes. I believe you can sit down at a table to play casually, but as soon as someone takes something personally, or as soon as someone's pride is on the line, I think that it becomes competitive, or at least it does to that person. I don't believe that this is right, necessarily, I think you should be able to play a game all the way through, laughing and enjoying yourselves, but eventually that one person sits down with a deck that just obliterates everyone else, and nobody likes it. When that happens, casual kind of goes out the window. Now everybody is tense, ready to take offense at which direction spells go. "Why are you attacking me?" "Why are you countering my spell? What'd I do to you?"
There is no way you can give a clear-cut answer to whether a game is competitive or casual... it just happens. The players determine it with whether they're smiling and joking when they play.
I noticed when someone would whine that my deck wasnt casual enough also went with that they were really bad at assesing the board state prior to me comboing out. If anything else they were too busy trying to mana ramp or too focused that someone played a money card like Bayou.
You know I experienced this for the first time last week, I did a random game with new people at the LGS I normally go to (Which no one normally plays infinity combos at, btw). Turn one I dropped a Underground Sea and got the "Oh your that guy" speech. To which I pointed out that the pack it came in was only $1.50. Ironically enough the guy that said that was playing a 5 color goodstuff deck and tried to go infinity creatures. I had a repercussions in play and cast a starstorm to kill him. He looked kinda of upset. Cause clearly the Underground Sea was unfair....
My playgroup cries if they see anything with infect. Seriously, I put in Putrefax for Mimeoplasm and make it obvious that he is coming back and there is always the groans. I just took the stuff they object to out most of the time. The only time I've told my group to straight up deal with it is shadow on Nether Traitor.
I don't think it is being casual or competitive but just not wanting to get answers. People want their creations to work and don't like someone getting in the way.
Lately I've been playing Commander with a few players outside of my usual, close-knit playgroup.
I've been finding that some people refuse to play against counterspells, others hate Darksteel artifacts - the range of objections varies enormously.
I've compiled my own thoughts on the matter, and am presenting it to people as a kinda 'Commander CV' for them to reference and help us decide if we can play together or not. It's in my sig, below.
But what I'd also like to get input on is how to deal with people from outside one's normal playgroup. Not only how to deal with the whining, but also...how is it possible to convince someone that they really shouldn't object to Capsize when they're playing Sheoldred, Whispering One??? Is it even possible at all.
The division between casual and competitive seems fairly straightforward to me, yet I seem to run into all kinds of bother.
Any input appreciated.
Your definition of casual EXCLUDES the Praetors? What?
My view on casual: It's casual. If you're applying a bunch of rules to it, you're rsetricting the casualness of it. The only decks I will really object to are super-tuned combo decks like Hermit Druid that aim at ending the game turn 3-4 every time with the exact same sequence of cards.
I view the Praetors as the DEFINITION of casual. They're huge, expensive creatures with a large impact on the game. This is what casual is all about.
Infinite combos I see as perfectly legitimate as long as they are not pushed too hard. If your chosen method of ending the game is a 3-4 card combo that happens to do something infinite, that's just fine. In a game where you're dealing with potentially 120-200 opposing life, relying on huge beaters to end it is not going to get games over with quickly at all. Your choices are generally general damage, poison damage, or infinite combo.
There are also plenty of Finite combos that are just as lethal. Bant Charm/Hinder/etc + Tunnel Vision will mill a player completely out. Hydra Omnivore + Grafted Exoskeleton means lethal poison to every opponent. Heartless Hidestugu + Gratuitous Violence gets everyone to 1 or 0 in one swing. Helm of Obedience + Leyline of the Void exiles someone's entire library every turn, etc.
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People moan and groan like the world is ending if someone executes an infinite combo or blows out land in my meta. Stay out of those areas and there arent many complaints in my meta. Sadly you just have to take the moans or alter your decks for the specific metas.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
We can sit here on our computers all day arguing/talking/typing about these issues - and I know I see it a lot in the groups out here - but after 2 years of this discussion the only conclusions I have come to are these:
1. No group will be 100% in agreement on 100% of the issues. If you are super Land Destruction guy and hyper competitive, you have to acquiesce to the group or you won't have a group anymore. If you are a laid back player that thinks counterspells and Stax decks are evil (or worse, that the people that pilot those decks are evil) you need to let them play their game as well. You will never find a good group that has the same goals. If you do there is undoubtedly something wrong.
2. Don't argue about it on MTGS. Talk to your damn friends! Explain to them what you want out of a game but also be open to the idea that YOU need to change your mind about things too. We all want the group to play the way WE like to play... the other guy does too. The politics of EDH is not how to deflect attention from yourself so you can pull ahead and win. That **** is easy. The real politics is figuring out how to get a group of people to compromise and communicate so that everybody is happy.
Edit:
Some of the people in my playgroup that frequent these boards are SurgingChaos, BaconoftheArk, Wasmachdurgen, and Biomechanika. Seriously, look at what each of these guys are posting here. We have to communicate about our games a lot but I also find a lot of value in their different approaches.... and oddly I think I have made a deck in response to each of these guys.
I completely agree, but that's why I always find it so frustrating when people on these forums will say stuff like "mass LD, that's not commander!" Or when we have a banned list with stuff like Kokusho and Sway of the Stars because they're "unfun," not because they're even remotely overpowered.
I enjoy a wide range of playstyles, including very casual ones, but I wish more people had a grasp of the concept that cutthroat games can be fun too.
Kokusho I agree with, he's not remotely overpowered without Recurring Nightmare to power him. Sway of the Stars if it resolves basically starts the game over. I can see why people label it unfun, and one spell basically completely restarting a game (I'm looking at you Karn Liberated) can outright suck the fun out of an evening.
Mono-Black Oona, Queen of the Fae
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This is what I have been trying to explain to my playgroup for a long time. I think the ultimate truth of EDH is versatility. A good deck is perpared for any and all situations no matter how crazy/unlikely/almost unbeatable the situation may be.
I agree with you on that, and while we were all playing reasonably serious decks, nobody was playing the role of a rule lawyer or acting overly grumpy about things. The Isamaru player who was most crippled by the rolling LD laughed at one point and revealed an Armageddon in his hand, stating it was the worst possible draw in that game.
I also agree with you on your concept of epic games, the one before that I spell jacked a Mirrari's Wake, and then someone resolved the new Wildfire, so all of my lands except one were blown up. Next turn I dropped another land and played Mirrari's Wake, having enough to cast a Mind over Matter and draw into another combo using that plus temple bell. I needed one more land drop to win or one more card in hand, so I passed the turn and it was a tense moment as the Red Akroma LD played thought if he could kill me that turn or not. These games just created a lot of interesting and tense moments when nobody was quite sure of how things would end.
Oh, and I generally bring a couple decks with me, one always being more combo-LD-Cutthroat goodness and the other being a more creature rawr-smash slower deck, so that whichever group I'm playing with I can be in the right power level to some extent.
Just find a playgroup that doesnt do that. You should be okay. Some guys I play with do that, and granted some of MY decks do that too but then again others dont.
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I wouldn't exactly say that, as a deck that isn't built to specifically hate such decks can still be fine against them, given that it's built well. Last week we had a game with Combo Oona, my Hanna deck, a Kaalia deck, and a Kresh deck.
The Oona deck, despite having plenty of heavy mana out really wasn't getting very far, as the Kresh player tutored and played a Damping Matrix shutting out Oona and Helm, without hurting himself very much aside from being able to sacrifice Sakura Tribe-Elder, while Attrition kept other creatures in check. I ended up countering his Mind over Matter and the game kept going even if the Kaalia player wasn't really in it because his mana wasn't showing up.
In short, the Kresh player won in a game that went for over an hour of back and forth, even though there were a bunch of fast decks. He didn't play anything he wouldn't want to play anyway and was able to pretty much hate out most of the combos effectively. It's not that you have to tailor your deck to beat them, it's just that you need to have a specific plan that also disrupts them in the process of accomplishing your goals... Oh, and it helps when at least three players are running decks with similar power levels as to keep things balanced as opposed to two having to balance each other out alone.
The table consisted of 1 Arcum Dagsson deck, 1 Jhoira deck, one mono blue deck (forgot his commander), and me playing Rafiq. It was a table full of controlish combo type decks but the Arcum and Jhoira decks were incredibily fast and powerful. The mono blue player ran out of counters or mana every game and I just couldnt answer every threat they threw at us. It more or less felt like the Jhoira and Arcum decks were playing a 1 v 1 game with me and the mono blue guy as just speed bumps to the 'real game'.
I was just simply amazed at how fast and consistant those 2 decks were for being 100 card singleton decks.
Arcum and Jhoira are very powerful generals and I won't deny that they can easily be some of the most degenerate ones when it comes to EDH. However, it sounds like the two of you were answering their decks in a very temporary manner that let them play that 1 on 1 game. Both of their decks are rather general dependant and a single tuck, Declaration of Naught, Damping Matrix, or whatever should be enough to at least slow them down enough for you to manage them.
I mean I can see that some generals are harder to deal with than others, but I doubt you have to build to specifically beat each general separately, to the extent that you're deviating from your initial game play to an extreme extent.
I picked up Ghave and started to refine the deck from an aggro build to a more combo themed deck. The transition sort of happened on its own.
I noticed when someone would whine that my deck wasnt casual enough also went with that they were really bad at assesing the board state prior to me comboing out. If anything else they were too busy trying to mana ramp or too focused that someone played a money card like Bayou.
The worst part isnt me playing combo even though everyone tapped out or didnt attempt to join forces to disrupt me. The worst part is the person who starts complaining that playing combo is an auto win or boring. In the end all this does is stifle everyones ability to improve. Every deck should have a way to deal with aggro or contol/combo. Investing in Money cards isnt the solution as much as being able to get over one's ego and address where problems as a deck builder/player are.
I am always impressed when someone points out that I play an overpowered money deck when I play something like Bayou, but won't pay attention when I play Crop Rotation.
It sounds like you're experiencing the competitive multiplayer EDH meta for the first time. Many decks have the potential to go off really fast, but those decks are also pretty easily disrupted if your deck is built correctly. It's not that you need to run specific hosers, it's just that you need to get a feel for what's good and bad in a competitive meta.
I mean, imagine you'd just played kitchen table standard your whole life, so bomby stuff (like Sphinx of Uthuun or whatever) seems amazing to you. Then you go to an FNM where every deck is tuned and it's going to seem like these lightning fast and consistent strategies are unbeatable. Obviously they're very beatable, but you can't bring your casual Sphinx deck and expect to make a splash. This isn't me saying your deck is bad, or anything, I have no idea what your deck is like. All I'm trying to say is that what works in a casual meta (play lots of big spells, don't run much spot removal) doesn't fly in cutthroat metas.
So obviously this post can't really be a primer on how to beat fast decks, but just be aware that little things like Pithing Needle, Damping Matrix, Krosan Grip, Counterspell, Tormod's Crypt, etc go a long way.
Actually I have been playing competitive EDH for quite some time. Just have not come across decks that were immune to alot of the things you mention as cards that slow them down. I was raised on cutthroat metas ;). Its just when you grip one of the guys combo pieces and he goes oh o.k., and resolves another combo to lock you out or kill you turn 4 or 5 its annoying. It was like knowing you were going to die, just pick your way of doing it.
Honestly if you want to break down the specific differences between casual and competitive it comes to a few things.
1) Attitude. If you're going into it with a "I will win no matter what" attitude you're playing competitively regardless of anything else. If you're going into it with a "I'm going to try to win but if I don't it's not like it really matters" then you're in a casual mindset and will play casually most likely.
2) Cards. You're running Sharuum combo control, you're probably playing it competitively. You could be playing it casually though, and not making all the "optimal" plays for sake of winning, and playing "badly" to an extent just to see what everyone else is doing. At that point you become more of a casual player at the time. Or you can run craw-blade.dec and just be interested in turning your creatures sideways, alternately you could run it with a cut-throat I'm gonna surprise win everyone kind of mindset and move to the competitive scale.
3)Knowledge. You know every single in and out, rules hiccup, and nuance to every major deck archetype and you've got a counter strategy for most of them. Congrats on your competitive deck and playstyle. I know absolutely nothing about this game but I'm going to win regardless of the fact. Also competitive. I've been playing since Alpha I've got full playsets of P9 and I have a signed original print run Necropotence, but I kinda want to try out this really weird Atogatog build and see if it's fun or not. You're more in the casual mindset.
4)Meta. My group plays mostly Sharuum, Zur, Omnath, and Azusa decks that are tuned and optimized. You're probably gravitating to a more competitive playstyle. My group runs Ashling the Extinguisher, Garza Zol, Sisters of Stonedeath, and one guy has a Genju of the Realms deck that isn't really a legal general but the deck is kinda cool so we really don't care. That's a more casual group and you probably are a more casual player.
All that said though, you can be a mix of Casual and Competitive. "I run Zur but I don't really like how broken some of the things he does can get so I don't run Necropotence, and everyone knows I don't so I get a little less hate than most Zur players." That's an example of a mix of casual and competitive. Or "I run Lyzolda the Blood Witch but I've ramped in a few extra things like Reiterate Wild Ricochet Wake of Destruction and Pox just to keep other people from building against me while I build up my 6 piece sac engine combo of doom." Would be another competitive/casual mix.
And we just continue on. Its meant to be at a table with people. Big decks, lots of cards, and crazy interactions on the board (especially multi-player) not combo out then just win. To which everyone looks at you and is disgusted. Thats just my opinion.
I play enough competitive standard to want to just have some fun with a format thats blatantly for people to have a good time making a themed deck.
Modern:
Affinity
EDH:
Rhys (Tokens)
Karrthus (Dragons)
Bruna (Auras OP)
It's when you play with your friends at your local store, or maybe late one night at one of your apartments, that you get into the "is this competitive or casual" question.
I think there is a heavy correlation between infinite combos (whether they be infinite mana, damage, draw, turns, whatever) and the casual/competitive aspect. Notice that I used the word correlation. A lot of people have heard the phrase "correlation does not equal causation." Just because there is a correlation does not mean that one causes the other. I believe there is a correlation between the two, but an infinite loop does not necessarily mean that you're playing competitively. I think they just happen more often in competitive play, because... well, you're trying to win the game, and win it in the most aggressive way possible... and that often uses infinite combos to remove the rest of the players in one go.
I think the single determining factor in this age-old dispute is this: the players' attitudes. I believe you can sit down at a table to play casually, but as soon as someone takes something personally, or as soon as someone's pride is on the line, I think that it becomes competitive, or at least it does to that person. I don't believe that this is right, necessarily, I think you should be able to play a game all the way through, laughing and enjoying yourselves, but eventually that one person sits down with a deck that just obliterates everyone else, and nobody likes it. When that happens, casual kind of goes out the window. Now everybody is tense, ready to take offense at which direction spells go. "Why are you attacking me?" "Why are you countering my spell? What'd I do to you?"
There is no way you can give a clear-cut answer to whether a game is competitive or casual... it just happens. The players determine it with whether they're smiling and joking when they play.
There's my 2 cents, anyway.
You know I experienced this for the first time last week, I did a random game with new people at the LGS I normally go to (Which no one normally plays infinity combos at, btw). Turn one I dropped a Underground Sea and got the "Oh your that guy" speech. To which I pointed out that the pack it came in was only $1.50. Ironically enough the guy that said that was playing a 5 color goodstuff deck and tried to go infinity creatures. I had a repercussions in play and cast a starstorm to kill him. He looked kinda of upset. Cause clearly the Underground Sea was unfair....
I don't think it is being casual or competitive but just not wanting to get answers. People want their creations to work and don't like someone getting in the way.
You: "I play counterspell"
Them: "I scoop"
You: "Yeah, I win. Play again?"
There is nothing wrong with counterspells. And even less wrong with darksteel artifacts.
That said, if you want to play in their group, you'll unfortunately have to play with their rules.
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Your definition of casual EXCLUDES the Praetors? What?
My view on casual: It's casual. If you're applying a bunch of rules to it, you're rsetricting the casualness of it. The only decks I will really object to are super-tuned combo decks like Hermit Druid that aim at ending the game turn 3-4 every time with the exact same sequence of cards.
I view the Praetors as the DEFINITION of casual. They're huge, expensive creatures with a large impact on the game. This is what casual is all about.
Infinite combos I see as perfectly legitimate as long as they are not pushed too hard. If your chosen method of ending the game is a 3-4 card combo that happens to do something infinite, that's just fine. In a game where you're dealing with potentially 120-200 opposing life, relying on huge beaters to end it is not going to get games over with quickly at all. Your choices are generally general damage, poison damage, or infinite combo.
There are also plenty of Finite combos that are just as lethal. Bant Charm/Hinder/etc + Tunnel Vision will mill a player completely out. Hydra Omnivore + Grafted Exoskeleton means lethal poison to every opponent. Heartless Hidestugu + Gratuitous Violence gets everyone to 1 or 0 in one swing. Helm of Obedience + Leyline of the Void exiles someone's entire library every turn, etc.
Currently Playing:
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And make them gain a bunch of life?
Sign me up!
1. No group will be 100% in agreement on 100% of the issues. If you are super Land Destruction guy and hyper competitive, you have to acquiesce to the group or you won't have a group anymore. If you are a laid back player that thinks counterspells and Stax decks are evil (or worse, that the people that pilot those decks are evil) you need to let them play their game as well. You will never find a good group that has the same goals. If you do there is undoubtedly something wrong.
2. Don't argue about it on MTGS. Talk to your damn friends! Explain to them what you want out of a game but also be open to the idea that YOU need to change your mind about things too. We all want the group to play the way WE like to play... the other guy does too. The politics of EDH is not how to deflect attention from yourself so you can pull ahead and win. That **** is easy. The real politics is figuring out how to get a group of people to compromise and communicate so that everybody is happy.
Edit:
Some of the people in my playgroup that frequent these boards are SurgingChaos, BaconoftheArk, Wasmachdurgen, and Biomechanika. Seriously, look at what each of these guys are posting here. We have to communicate about our games a lot but I also find a lot of value in their different approaches.... and oddly I think I have made a deck in response to each of these guys.
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