So I sold out of magic to get into warhammer around 2017, and I am now building a couple of EDH decks to play with a couple of friends and I have to ask.....why the hell is the blue/red otter banned?
Companion is supposed to offer a trade-off. You must meet some restriction to get the benefit. Lutri, however, has a condition that is automatically met just by playing Commander; there is zero drawback for a free 101st card and there is literally no reason not to run it in any deck containing blue and red. Note that it was banned under the initial Companion rules, and once the nerfed the ability (because it was badly designed and poorly implemented for all formats), it may not have been so powerful, but it's still free card #101 with no drawback.
If you counted it as one of your 99 cards it'd be even MORE powerful.
This is yet another reason I hate hate HATE the "fix" wotc imposed on companions btw, it doesn't fix "free" companions at all, because even at 3 more they're still a free card. Just a free crappy card instead of a free good one. If the fix was, say, you lose 5 life at the start of the game if you have a companion, then Lutri probably could have joined commander, and people wouldn't run free companions just because they're free (like the kaheera in creatureless vintage/legacy, although at least it costs a sideboard spot in that format).
Because banned as companion was 'too complex' which is a complete underestimation of the intelligence of the average player.
When the average player figures out deodorant I'll have more faith in bans like that.
On one hand, 'Banned as Commander' and 'Banned as Companion' are super simple concepts that even a toddler can grasp, making their decision to eschew those options more than a little insulting.
On the other, the average EDH player could probably stand to take a shower more than once a month :B
It's not that the concept is difficult. It's that the upside is very low. In Lutri's case especially, we get one more card available in the format? Out of tens of thousands? That's really not worth adding a whole new category of ban imo.
Plus I'm sure most people wouldn't mind you playing it anyway (outside the companion zone obviously) if you ask in advance.
Also, while it's easy enough now, ten years down the line it might be a lot more confusing to need to learn a barely-used decade-old mechanic just to understand the banlist. And god forbid they add more "banned as X" lists. For simplicity's sake, I think it was absolutely the correct call.
Probably picked the worst time to get into the format with the Rules Committee actively splitting the EDH / Commander Community apart by siding with Wizards of the Coast in regards to the kind of precedent that the Walking Dead Secret Lair cards have made. EDH / Commander is by far my favorite format in Paper Magic but with the way things are going lately it's almost as If everything's going to hell in a hand basket. 2020 was a literal dumpster fire.
I'm just glad I didn't spend as much on the format as other people have where I only have two EDH / Commander decks. I have Nissa, Vastwood Seer and Kenrith, the Returned King while my other friend has Breya, Etherium Shaper and Alela, Artful Provocateur. Losing the ability to play EDH / Commander at my Local Game Stores would be a major blow to Paper Magic as a whole IMO.
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America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I definitely agree that making an entirely new category for Lutri probably isn't worth the effort.
'Banned as Commander,' however, was absolutely kiboshed explicitly because they didn't think people were smart enough to remember two lists, so forgive me if I'm insulted and suspicious when a committee of knuckle-dragging morons try to tell me something is for the best lol
'Banned as Commander,' however, was absolutely kiboshed explicitly because they didn't think people were smart enough to remember two lists, so forgive me if I'm insulted and suspicious when a committee of knuckle-dragging morons try to tell me something is for the best lol
I don't remember the announcement super well, but complexity is complexity. Obviously one additional list doesn't suddenly make the format too complex, but it's worth simplifying the format if it doesn't cost much elsewhere. It took a while for the format to become more streamlined and I think it's better for it.
So what did we lose by dropping BaaC? Erayo, oh, what a bummer, what a fun card to play against. Braids, oh, what a bummer, what a fun card to play against. Rofellos, oh great, another expensive reserved list auto-include for mono-green (speaking as someone who still owns one, btw). More importantly, we're talking about a tiny number of cards in the grand scheme of things. Having a whole additional rule and banned list, just so a few people get to play with one questionable card they like is not a worthwhile tradeoff of complexity for payoff.
I'm happy to complain about the RC kowtowing to wotc over this walking dead disaster, but this whinging over BaaC has got to STOP. It's been what, five years? And a whopping THREE CARDS? Holy hell, GET OVER IT.
lol there's really not anything valid to complain about re: TWD, what're you on about? Disaster nothing this secret lair is HYPE.
My biggest gripe about losing the 'Banned as Commander' list was that the list was ALREADY IN PLACE and it wasn't hurting anyone. Meanwhile it gave folks who wanted to play specific edge-case legendaries a chance to play them. It was only a positive thing. And then it got taken away for no legitimate reason, and the rationale given at the time boiled down to 'y'all are too dumb to remember two lists.'
I wouldn't have minded if there had never been a list in the first place. Really I wouldn't. But they made it, and it was a good thing, and they took it away while telling us all we're stupid.
****. That.
Banning Lutri is whatever, I wish I got to play with his adorable little otter ass and its sad that he'll never see play anywhere in spite of being so cute, but at least we never really HAD him before losing him.
lol there's really not anything valid to complain about re: TWD, what're you on about? Disaster nothing this secret lair is HYPE.
We found the worst take. Congratulations.
Even if you don't care about the predatory business model, even if you don't care about the risks to tournament formats, even if you don't care about the effective extending of the reserved list, even if you don't care about the international magic community, even if you don't care about having functional advertisements for a commercial product in the middle of your game, even if you like the walking dead for some reason (why am I not surprised you like that god-awful excuse for television?), even if you think the designs are interesting, even if you don't care about magic get polluted with every IP WotC can whore itself out to, even if you don't care about the sanctity of black borders, even if you don't find the depiction of living actors on magic cards cringey as hell, even if you don't care about the health of LGSs which are already dying...why on this green Earth would any human being get "HYPED" to pay $50 for 5 unproven cards that cost wotc pennies to make? Do you just love getting ripped off?
My biggest gripe about losing the 'Banned as Commander' list was that the list was ALREADY IN PLACE and it wasn't hurting anyone. Meanwhile it gave folks who wanted to play specific edge-case legendaries a chance to play them. It was only a positive thing. And then it got taken away for no legitimate reason, and the rationale given at the time boiled down to 'y'all are too dumb to remember two lists.'
I wouldn't have minded if there had never been a list in the first place. Really I wouldn't. But they made it, and it was a good thing, and they took it away while telling us all we're stupid.
****. That.
Every new player to the game would need to learn the additional rules, it's not already in place for new players who may be deterred by convoluted rules like multiple banlists. And by this point, most players who play commander probably started playing without BaaC existing. So it's no longer "already in place".
I cannot fathom why someone could care so much about losing 3 cards. If they banned my three favorite cards in the whole game (maybe...life from the loam, sunforger, and Phelddagrif?) I wouldn't still be whining about it five years later. WotC has printed thousand and thousands of cards since that time, pick some of those to play and GET OVER IT.
Just a reminder to be polite. People have a right to be upset, but people also have a right to be excited and enjoy the cards. Simply because someone feels differently about these cards and what they mean does not make them bad, or even wrong. Everyone in this discussion loves Magic. Just keep that in mind when replying to anyone.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
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This is yet another reason I hate hate HATE the "fix" wotc imposed on companions btw, it doesn't fix "free" companions at all, because even at 3 more they're still a free card. Just a free crappy card instead of a free good one. If the fix was, say, you lose 5 life at the start of the game if you have a companion, then Lutri probably could have joined commander, and people wouldn't run free companions just because they're free (like the kaheera in creatureless vintage/legacy, although at least it costs a sideboard spot in that format).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
When the average player figures out deodorant I'll have more faith in bans like that.
On one hand, 'Banned as Commander' and 'Banned as Companion' are super simple concepts that even a toddler can grasp, making their decision to eschew those options more than a little insulting.
On the other, the average EDH player could probably stand to take a shower more than once a month :B
Plus I'm sure most people wouldn't mind you playing it anyway (outside the companion zone obviously) if you ask in advance.
Also, while it's easy enough now, ten years down the line it might be a lot more confusing to need to learn a barely-used decade-old mechanic just to understand the banlist. And god forbid they add more "banned as X" lists. For simplicity's sake, I think it was absolutely the correct call.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I'm just glad I didn't spend as much on the format as other people have where I only have two EDH / Commander decks. I have Nissa, Vastwood Seer and Kenrith, the Returned King while my other friend has Breya, Etherium Shaper and Alela, Artful Provocateur. Losing the ability to play EDH / Commander at my Local Game Stores would be a major blow to Paper Magic as a whole IMO.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
'Banned as Commander,' however, was absolutely kiboshed explicitly because they didn't think people were smart enough to remember two lists, so forgive me if I'm insulted and suspicious when a committee of knuckle-dragging morons try to tell me something is for the best lol
So what did we lose by dropping BaaC? Erayo, oh, what a bummer, what a fun card to play against. Braids, oh, what a bummer, what a fun card to play against. Rofellos, oh great, another expensive reserved list auto-include for mono-green (speaking as someone who still owns one, btw). More importantly, we're talking about a tiny number of cards in the grand scheme of things. Having a whole additional rule and banned list, just so a few people get to play with one questionable card they like is not a worthwhile tradeoff of complexity for payoff.
I'm happy to complain about the RC kowtowing to wotc over this walking dead disaster, but this whinging over BaaC has got to STOP. It's been what, five years? And a whopping THREE CARDS? Holy hell, GET OVER IT.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
My biggest gripe about losing the 'Banned as Commander' list was that the list was ALREADY IN PLACE and it wasn't hurting anyone. Meanwhile it gave folks who wanted to play specific edge-case legendaries a chance to play them. It was only a positive thing. And then it got taken away for no legitimate reason, and the rationale given at the time boiled down to 'y'all are too dumb to remember two lists.'
I wouldn't have minded if there had never been a list in the first place. Really I wouldn't. But they made it, and it was a good thing, and they took it away while telling us all we're stupid.
****. That.
Banning Lutri is whatever, I wish I got to play with his adorable little otter ass and its sad that he'll never see play anywhere in spite of being so cute, but at least we never really HAD him before losing him.
Even if you don't care about the predatory business model, even if you don't care about the risks to tournament formats, even if you don't care about the effective extending of the reserved list, even if you don't care about the international magic community, even if you don't care about having functional advertisements for a commercial product in the middle of your game, even if you like the walking dead for some reason (why am I not surprised you like that god-awful excuse for television?), even if you think the designs are interesting, even if you don't care about magic get polluted with every IP WotC can whore itself out to, even if you don't care about the sanctity of black borders, even if you don't find the depiction of living actors on magic cards cringey as hell, even if you don't care about the health of LGSs which are already dying...why on this green Earth would any human being get "HYPED" to pay $50 for 5 unproven cards that cost wotc pennies to make? Do you just love getting ripped off?
Every new player to the game would need to learn the additional rules, it's not already in place for new players who may be deterred by convoluted rules like multiple banlists. And by this point, most players who play commander probably started playing without BaaC existing. So it's no longer "already in place".
I cannot fathom why someone could care so much about losing 3 cards. If they banned my three favorite cards in the whole game (maybe...life from the loam, sunforger, and Phelddagrif?) I wouldn't still be whining about it five years later. WotC has printed thousand and thousands of cards since that time, pick some of those to play and GET OVER IT.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek