I recently tossed out a thread and it appears many people are not happy with the way the RC approaches the banned list. Now after this whole walking dead fiasco it is clear they are making a lot of people unhappy.
Its a crazy idea, I know it would be extremely hard to manage this but what if the community could come together and make our RC, meaning our own banned list (done via voting through straw pull or something like that). The common idea is this is a community driven format, let’s make it that. We can just rename the format EDH-community format?
Again just spitballing this idea. Not trying to get people fired, just seeing what our opinions are.
I hate to say it, but it would never work and you would be better off just running your own local group with house rules. The only thing that gives the RC any amount of authority is that when the format was young, they took up the mantel and everyone was fine with it....then it just became tradition.
On a side note, why is everyone so upset with the walking dead thing? Yeah it is dumb that wizards did it and made them black border, but getting upset that the RC didn’t ban legal black border cards is one of the silliest things I have seen the commander community get upset over and I remember people wanting Concentrated Sphinx banned.
Yeah it's never going to take off. Sorry. Certainly not from this forum of all places. I'm not even sure people would follow the RC if wotc deposed them and took over the format - and they created the format. Some randos on the internet with no established leadership role in the format? Yeah GL with that.
If some famous commander personality like the command zone tried, maybe they'd have SOME traction (although still almost certainly fail). If EDHrec tried, same thing most likely. If WotC DID depose the RC, maybe in the kerfuffle there'd be a chance for someone else to take up the mantle, though it'd still be very unlikely. But randos in the community absolutely no chance ever.
People are upset about the walking dead thing for a lot of reasons, but I think the biggest reason is that how they sell secret lairs is predatory. It's the same BS a lot of video games use, trying to trigger people's FOMO so they'll buy stuff they don't even really want, just because they're worried they won't be able to buy it later, or it'll get way more expensive and they'll wish they had it, etc. When it was just alt versions of existing cards, at least the value of the originals couldn't go up, so it didn't tip people off. With this, it's obvious wotc is preying on commander players specifically. The RC should have banned them to protect the commander community from being taken advantage of.
Plus, I mean, I really don't want to play a version of magic that's getting infested by other franchises. Least of all a crappy one like TWD. If it's silver border I'm usually happy to allow it. But forcing us to accept it is massively overreaching imo. It's the difference between asking to visit and home invasion.
My local store has their Commander banned list posted at the counter. It's similar to, but slightly different from the official banned list.
My playgroup doesn't use a banned list at all. But we're all friends, so we make an effort to be courteous. We try to match power levels. If someone asks "No counters" or "No infinite combos" for a game or two, we will just go along with it.
But it's not going to work on a large scale. If you try to get a game with a stranger, they are going to assume you are using the official list.
I think that the old EDH philosophy and original banned list kind of stand as evidence that this would not work. For a number of years, when people would ask about a banned list, they were directed to the old EDH website. Over time, the disparity between that website and the official WOTC Commander website has diminished as they start to align more and more. No longer is the idea of promoting your own banned list something of note, it is kind of just something older players to the format remember was a thing at one point.
Some stores still do this, our store had a custom banned list for years. Last year one of the owners sold their share of it and the new owner that came in, had simply scrapped it and went with the official list.
Unfortunately, this dumpster fire is blazin' and there isn't really any way to put it out at this point. The RC is what it is and will almost certainly continue.
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Instead of creating your own Rules Committee how about putting Rule Zero to good use? I sympathize with what Mitch from Commander's Quarters on YouTube is trying to do to help save the format yet I don't believe "Captain" is the answer.
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America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I don’t even really understand why TWD cards are a problem. Why do people care about them being legal? Is it because they cannot get their own? They don’t really look broken. Is it because you don’t want TWD character IPs in your game of Magic? What?
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The problem I see with the potential for a new independent rules committee for a new format like Captain is that eventually Wizards of the Coast is going to get them in the same position as the EDH / Commander Rules Committee when getting them to go along with their sales tactics. The odds of that happening are dependent on how many people go along with the idea cause we've seen cases in the past where people have tried to replicate the success of EDH / Commander through variants such as Oathbreaker and Tiny Leaders but have failed every time. Captain is really no different.
Now If Captain banned the use of the Reserve List aside from the Walking Dead Secret Lair cards and similar cards like it then that would only splinter the MTG community further. The problem is how much would Captain differentiate itself from EDH / Commander to where it's just as appealing or more appealing? That's the real challenge that this supposed new committee would need to tackle cause it's not just a matter of introducing a new concept of a format and then just walk away to see If it takes off or not. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was Elder Dragon Highlander (EDH).
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America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I don’t even really understand why TWD cards are a problem. Why do people care about them being legal? Is it because they cannot get their own? They don’t really look broken. Is it because you don’t want TWD character IPs in your game of Magic? What?
There are so, so many problematic things about the product. I'll list some of them out.
1) It's a blatantly predatory business model. "If you miss a drop, it's gone forever" or whatever their stupid slogan is. They're obviously preying on peoples' FOMO to sell these things, because people are worried they might want it later and the price will skyrocket. It's the same psychologically manipulative tactics that mobile games have been "pioneering" in an effort to force people to part with their money as effectively as possible. This was semi-acceptable with reprints since at least those cards were already available at whatever the price was, but with these, there's really no telling where the price will go.
2) The price is extortionary. Ignoring the tokens because who gives a damn, you're paying $10 per card, assuming you're in a place where you don't have to pay import taxes or whatever else. That's a price we're used to because of the singles market, but the reason some singles are worth $10+ is because of all the many, many, many cards that AREN'T worth that much. For every $10 piece of cardboard WotC produces for a penny, they make hundreds of worthless cards for the same cost, and leave it to the secondary market to sort out what is worth what. By straight-up selling cards for $10, they're putting in almost zero effort and blatantly ripping players off.
3) There is already a precedent for crossovers in magic, in fact there have been two: silver border cards, which almost everyone I've met is happy to allow in a game of casual commander so long as they aren't being abused, and the godzilla "alt-art" versions from Ikoria. Either of these would have been acceptable to most people, but they didn't do either - because if they did alt-arts, then they wouldn't be able to prey on FOMO because most people would just pick them up in a normal version, and if they did silver-border, then players wouldn't consider them "real cards" and so they wouldn't feel it as necessary to pick them up and they won't sell as many copies (likely only fans of TWD would pick them up, which imo ought to be the goal anyway). It's a blatantly greedy move to push the cards without regard for how players are going to feel about them.
4) Having non-magic IP, especially modern day real-world-adjacent IP, forced into the game is annoying and immersion breaking. Personally I'm a little luke-warm on this point since I'd be happy to see, for example, a set based around lord of the rings or some similarly venerable IP, but as someone who watched the first 3-4 seasons of TWD, it's a garbage show that gets way more marketing push than it deserves. Having TWD cards forced into the the game feels like an advertisement for a commercial product, not a fun flavor change.
5) Selling these cards online only cuts out the LGS, which are already struggling significantly thanks to the pandemic, and certainly haven't been helped by the advent of arena either. It's a move that feels like it's focused on the short-term gains of "cutting out the middle-man", but at the sacrifice of the long-term health of paper play.
6) These aren't available in all regions, which isn't fair to players in those regions (I'm also lukewarm on this point since I don't think anyone should buy them).
7) If they ever become tournament viable - probably not this batch, but who knows with future batches - not only might that cause a catastrophic price surge, but it also might mean that high-level magic play is being dominated by Mickey Mouse or whatever other cringy IP WotC is shilling for.
8) Probably the most minor note, but I guess Negan has done some bad stuff on the show (beyond the expected murder and whatnot) to where it might be kinda weird to play him as a commander - like imagine if Jeffrey Epstein was a commander. No clue, I finally gave up right about the time he was introduced and at this point I refuse to care about TWD on principle.
9) most importantly, these set a TERRIBLE precedent for what could happen in the future. Tons of crossovers with awful IPs (someone's mentioned fortnite is possible...just shoot me), the potential for legacy-viable cards, or maybe even standard-legal cards, or even just powerful commanders that become must-haves, at extortionary prices that cut out LGSs while they bleed commander players dry. Some of those are more slippery-slopey than others, but the additional IPs is basically confirmed by WotC. If this was a one-and-done product I'd be annoyed but I'd get over it, but I think this is likely to be the beginning of the end for what we once called magic - and I don't say that lightly. I've never felt this way before in almost twenty years of playing, in fact I've usually defended WotC. But this is completely different, and if we don't do something about it, this game is going to go downhill very quickly.
My playgroup doesn't use a banned list at all. But we're all friends, so we make an effort to be courteous. We try to match power levels. If someone asks "No counters" or "No infinite combos" for a game or two, we will just go along with it.
This. As long as you can communicate among members of your playgroup it makes the game not need a ban list at all. Most people I've played with even outside my play group will announce ahead of time if they have some sort of truly perverse deck that's going to leave you traumatized for life. Like a deck that goes infinite with release the ants on turn one or two - and no one is banning release the ants.
If you have a fear of missing out on these products, then try to buy them. If you miss out on them, so what? You suddenly cannot play commander and have fun anymore?
Limited print runs also drastically reduces the odds that these cards even make it into your commander experience. So I am not sure the IP bleeding is really a valid argument.
I think the crossover stuff is incredibly cringe. Godzilla cards were pretty gross. D&D crossover sounds even more disgusting. These TWD cards are pretty deplorable.
But to call for the cancelation of the RC over this stuff, seems kind of petty. We have commander players here that loved the Godzilla cards but have never played them. They just stuck them in their show off binder and called it a day. New mechanics also rarely have enough support to spawn a consistent enough deck where crossover cards are going to thematically make a game feel off.
I think people are completely overreacting here.
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If you have a fear of missing out on these products, then try to buy them. If you miss out on them, so what? You suddenly cannot play commander and have fun anymore?
Limited print runs also drastically reduces the odds that these cards even make it into your commander experience. So I am not sure the IP bleeding is really a valid argument.
I think the crossover stuff is incredibly cringe. Godzilla cards were pretty gross. D&D crossover sounds even more disgusting. These TWD cards are pretty deplorable.
But to call for the cancelation of the RC over this stuff, seems kind of petty. We have commander players here that loved the Godzilla cards but have never played them. They just stuck them in their show off binder and called it a day. New mechanics also rarely have enough support to spawn a consistent enough deck where crossover cards are going to thematically make a game feel off.
I think people are completely overreacting here.
I think you've completely missed the point. This is not a question about me personally, and it's not really about these products specifically either. It's about the direction this game is headed as a whole, and how WotC is treating its customers.
WotC's predatory model here isn't bad because I personally might miss out, or worry about missing out. It's bad because it's simply morally wrong. There are many people out there - and while do I have these tendencies, personally I can keep them in check in this instance - who are going to see a product that's only available for a short time and decide they have to buy it, not because they actually want it, but because they're worried they might want it later. And in particular the structure of MtG makes they predatory practice really powerful, because unlike a limited edition figurine or whatever, not just the value but also the function of these cards could change with the release of future cards. Maybe Rick doesn't look legacy viable now, but maybe WotC makes some really pushed human tribal cards in the future and suddenly he's an in-demand 3-of for a top-tier legacy deck. There's also such a short window between the announcement and the "gotta buy it right now" window that there's not much time to test these cards with proxies, for players who might want to do some research for buying, or who just might want more time to think it over. Most cards are easily available for years before supplies start to dry up, which gives plenty of time for those cards to be tested and proven in various formats - whether that's a competitive format or casual commander. With these, you've gotta buy 'em RIGHT NOW BUY THEM RIGHT NOW OR YOU'LL NEVER HAVE THEM. And who knows what the next set will look like, or the next, or the next? It took WotC TWO unique BaB promos to screw up and make one standard-competitive. We're just going to hope that doesn't happen again, except potentially much worse, this time? They're playing with fire here, fire they've proven they cannot control, and they're doing it out of greed, pure and simple. It's wrong and they know it's wrong.
And the price point, seriously, is just so egregious. I don't know what their margins are, but it's safe to say that this is absolutely insane. Normal packs you're getting 15 pieces of cardboard for $3, give or take. $1 for 5. This is fifty times that price for the same stuff. Yes, singles get expensive, but they get expensive on the backs of all the other cards that wotc makes that don't. And more importantly, wotc isn't directly benefitting off the skyrocketing cost of cards, especially old cards, whereas in this case they're deliberately causing it. It's the difference between someone dying in an accident and being murdered.
I don't necessarily mind IP bleed as much as most - I love seeing pop culture alters for the most part (I've got an genie transforming abu alter of [[pongify]] for example), I'm happy to play against silver-bordered cards, and I love P3k - in fact I wish they did more similar things, because I really don't give a crap about the MtG story or characters and everything I read from it makes me cringe. But The Walking Dead is, imo, a very very poor choice of crossover IP for a couple reasons:
1) It takes place in a near-real-world, and the cards depict real human actors. This is way more jarring to me than any Kaiju.
2) More importantly, TWD is a currently running commercial product, and WotC partnering with them is essentially selling us advertisements for that show. That is a huge difference between, say, P3K which afaik isn't shilling for any Chinese history books. Luckily I'm not super interested in the design of any of these cards, but if I were, I'd be very bothered by being forced to run one themed around another commercial property like TWD. Sure, Godzilla technically is too, but I sure haven't seen any movies advertised for Spacegodzilla or Mechagodzilla or whatever. They're old enough to feel like general cultural consciousness, and not something trying to sell itself right now. And more importantly they're available in normal "magic" versions so I'm not forced to play with them, and I don't (except death corona because that's too gold to pass up).
3) Less importantly, The Walking Dead is just the worst show. It blows my mind that people still watch that dreck and think it's actually good. Season 1 was mediocre and then season 2 was already unforgivably bad in so many ways - boring, contrived, nonsensical, boring, poorly-written, under-budgeted, boring, and with few, if any, redeeming characters. If this was a crossover with a property I had even a modicum of respect for, I'd be a lot more conflicted, but there are few shows I have less respect for than TWD. Thirteen Reasons Why, there we go, I found one. If they partner with 13RW I will throw my magic collection off a bridge.
By making these cards TWD, they're saying that if I want to play these cards, I have to support the walking dead and play with cards that have their names and images on them. That is a massive barf from me. As mentioned, none of these hugely appeal (I guess I might want to try Negan out? But it's certainly not a pressing need) but who knows what the future might hold with future lairs that might have more interesting mechanics with flavor I dislike? I also don't relish the idea of getting my ass kicked by Ronald McDonald because they pushed their mcdonalds crossover to hell and back. Silver border lets me say "no", black border does not.
All that said, I'm certainly not calling for deposing the RC. I wish they had banned them, and I think they should have, but I do understand their reasoning - a banlist really isn't the "proper" way to prevent these things from happening. I happen to think it's still an effective way, and that when faced with the potential ruination of the format, efficacy is more important that decorum, but I don't think they should get removed for their opinion, definitely not.
People have too much free time on their hands right now so they spend it all screeching about things that don't really matter instead of using that energy doing something useful.
For an apples to apples comparison, there are people on YouTube having complete mental breakdowns about Steve making it into Smash, proclaiming that the game is dead and that if you're happy about it you're a bad person. Un-*******-real. Meanwhile the community reaction in general has been so wholesome and delightful. How are we more toxic than the Smash community? The one where the pedophiles hang out?
Like, have y'all never experienced any sort of strife before? Just because a company produces a product that you don't like doesn't mean the world is ending. SMDH, I'm out here working my butt off every day, protesting injustice in the streets when I have time, there's a constant stream of news about more murder and disease, and every day now I'm coming home to read hyperbolic melodrama about Magic being dead. Its like watching the Kardashians these people are so out of touch with reality.
Magic is fine. Commander/EDH is fine. Everybody breath. It is ok to not like something. The world doesn't end when you don't like something.
(That said, I don't really hate the idea of taking the format away from the RC but that's an unrelated matter lolol)
I mean I think I agree with you that people are overreacting about the particular cards being discussed. If someone shows up with a Tegen deck I would welcome them to the table the same way I would anyone else. And actually, I think the card design and the artwork on the cards are pretty cool.
I think you've completely missed the point. This is not a question about me personally, and it's not really about these products specifically either. It's about the direction this game is headed as a whole, and how WotC is treating its customers.
I don't think I missed the point at all. People are clamoring about making a new RC and canceling Commander and the RC in favor of Captain...
I asked WHY, and your response seems to either have nothing to do with the situation as it pertains to Commander, or they are naive points. I think it is as cringe as the next guy, but this discussion of canceling the RC and Commander is pretty rediculous.
WotC's predatory model here isn't bad because I personally might miss out, or worry about missing out. It's bad because it's simply morally wrong. There are many people out there - and while do I have these tendencies, personally I can keep them in check in this instance - who are going to see a product that's only available for a short time and decide they have to buy it, not because they actually want it, but because they're worried they might want it later. And in particular the structure of MtG makes they predatory practice really powerful, because unlike a limited edition figurine or whatever, not just the value but also the function of these cards could change with the release of future cards. Maybe Rick doesn't look legacy viable now, but maybe WotC makes some really pushed human tribal cards in the future and suddenly he's an in-demand 3-of for a top-tier legacy deck. There's also such a short window between the announcement and the "gotta buy it right now" window that there's not much time to test these cards with proxies, for players who might want to do some research for buying, or who just might want more time to think it over. Most cards are easily available for years before supplies start to dry up, which gives plenty of time for those cards to be tested and proven in various formats - whether that's a competitive format or casual commander. With these, you've gotta buy 'em RIGHT NOW BUY THEM RIGHT NOW OR YOU'LL NEVER HAVE THEM. And who knows what the next set will look like, or the next, or the next? It took WotC TWO unique BaB promos to screw up and make one standard-competitive. We're just going to hope that doesn't happen again, except potentially much worse, this time? They're playing with fire here, fire they've proven they cannot control, and they're doing it out of greed, pure and simple. It's wrong and they know it's wrong.
Yet this isn't new. People have been dealing with card availability in MTG since... forever. People will meet this situation as they always have in the format... just proxy them. Exclusivity is nothing new to the game, the only difference is that now it isn't driven by the secondary market. Plenty of companies market on this axis without being called predatory, so why is MTG unable to do the same without receiving backlash?
I don't necessarily mind IP bleed as much as most - I love seeing pop culture alters for the most part (I've got an genie transforming abu alter of [[pongify]] for example), I'm happy to play against silver-bordered cards, and I love P3k - in fact I wish they did more similar things, because I really don't give a crap about the MtG story or characters and everything I read from it makes me cringe. But The Walking Dead is, imo, a very very poor choice of crossover IP for a couple reasons:
1) It takes place in a near-real-world, and the cards depict real human actors. This is way more jarring to me than any Kaiju.
2) More importantly, TWD is a currently running commercial product, and WotC partnering with them is essentially selling us advertisements for that show. That is a huge difference between, say, P3K which afaik isn't shilling for any Chinese history books. Luckily I'm not super interested in the design of any of these cards, but if I were, I'd be very bothered by being forced to run one themed around another commercial property like TWD. Sure, Godzilla technically is too, but I sure haven't seen any movies advertised for Spacegodzilla or Mechagodzilla or whatever. They're old enough to feel like general cultural consciousness, and not something trying to sell itself right now. And more importantly they're available in normal "magic" versions so I'm not forced to play with them, and I don't (except death corona because that's too gold to pass up).
3) Less importantly, The Walking Dead is just the worst show. It blows my mind that people still watch that dreck and think it's actually good. Season 1 was mediocre and then season 2 was already unforgivably bad in so many ways - boring, contrived, nonsensical, boring, poorly-written, under-budgeted, boring, and with few, if any, redeeming characters. If this was a crossover with a property I had even a modicum of respect for, I'd be a lot more conflicted, but there are few shows I have less respect for than TWD. Thirteen Reasons Why, there we go, I found one. If they partner with 13RW I will throw my magic collection off a bridge.
The product is limited to the point where I think these complaints are just kind of ridiculous to draw the conclusion that they are ruining the game. You are talking about the exclusiveness of the product while simultaneously advocating that it is going to heavily permeate MTG to the point where it is shoved in everyone's face. Talk about speaking in hyperbole.
By making these cards TWD, they're saying that if I want to play these cards, I have to support the walking dead and play with cards that have their names and images on them. That is a massive barf from me. As mentioned, none of these hugely appeal (I guess I might want to try Negan out? But it's certainly not a pressing need) but who knows what the future might hold with future lairs that might have more interesting mechanics with flavor I dislike? I also don't relish the idea of getting my ass kicked by Ronald McDonald because they pushed their mcdonalds crossover to hell and back. Silver border lets me say "no", black border does not.
You know what else lets you say "no"? Curating a playgroup like people did when EDH first got off the ground. I am unsure why so many people seem to think that you have to play the format in an open table setting as opposed to a kitchen table style setting in which the format was birthed. It is rather comical whilst being very confusing.
All that said, I'm certainly not calling for deposing the RC. I wish they had banned them, and I think they should have, but I do understand their reasoning - a banlist really isn't the "proper" way to prevent these things from happening. I happen to think it's still an effective way, and that when faced with the potential ruination of the format, efficacy is more important that decorum, but I don't think they should get removed for their opinion, definitely not.
I still have not seen a single justifiable reason for banning them. Being cringe isn't really a valid reason. Ruining the format is a pretty bold claim.
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Like, have y'all never experienced any sort of strife before? Just because a company produces a product that you don't like doesn't mean the world is ending. SMDH, I'm out here working my butt off every day, protesting injustice in the streets when I have time, there's a constant stream of news about more murder and disease, and every day now I'm coming home to read hyperbolic melodrama about Magic being dead.
Pre-Covid, I'd estimate I spent about ~16 hours a week playing magic, and probably ~5 hours working on decks.
It's a major part of my life. If I think it's under threat, yeah, I'm going to take that seriously. And for the record, this is the only time I've felt this way, and I've been playing for 18 years. I'm not a constant "sky is falling" guy when it comes to magic. This is unprecedented. I'm sympathetic to BLM protesters (I went to one climate protest...It's not much, but tbh it really just wasn't my speed), but I'm a selfish guy and I focus on what affects me most, personally. Magic affects me a lot. And as someone who spends a lot of money on the game and a lot of time talking about it, I actually have a relatively loud voice compared to my opinions on police brutality and carbon emissions.
I asked WHY, and your response seems to either have nothing to do with the situation as it pertains to Commander, or they are naive points. I think it is as cringe as the next guy, but this discussion of canceling the RC and Commander is pretty rediculous.
I never advocated removing the RC so please stop bringing it up - that's never been my argument. I disagree strongly with them but I don't have any intention to disassociate the format from them.
It pertains strongly to commander (and the reason why banning them would have likely been very effective) because these are clearly targeted at commander players. Remove them from the format and WotC will be disincentivized from producing similar products in black border, which is the goal. Is the banlist the "right" way to do that? Not really, but when somebody is trying to kill me, if I've got a fork at hand I'm not going to quibble over whether stabbing is the proper use of a fork.
(what a weird metaphor)
Yet this isn't new. People have been dealing with card availability in MTG since... forever. People will meet this situation as they always have in the format... just proxy them. Exclusivity is nothing new to the game, the only difference is that now it isn't driven by the secondary market. Plenty of companies market on this axis without being called predatory, so why is MTG unable to do the same without receiving backlash?
Yes, lots of mobile/VG companies pull similar stunts, because they've done lots of research on how to build perfect skinner boxes for separating people from their money. And yes, those companies are called predatory and rightfully so, and they do receive backlash. Forgive me if I'm not thrilled to see WotC taking a massive step down the same path.
Card availability has been a problem, yes, but say what you will about the reserved list - wotc doesn't benefit from it. If anything it hurts them, probably quite a bit. Intent matters. There's a big difference between something happening accidentally and something happening on purpose. A volcano killing someone is unfortunate, but it's not evil. When a person kills someone else intentionally, then it's time to start laying down the moral judgments.
The product is limited to the point where I think these complaints are just kind of ridiculous to draw the conclusion that they are ruining the game. You are talking about the exclusiveness of the product while simultaneously advocating that it is going to heavily permeate MTG to the point where it is shoved in everyone's face. Talk about speaking in hyperbole.
When have I ever said that these were going to heavily permeate magic? Seriously, what is this insane straw man bull*****?
For that matter, I haven't really said much about it being exclusive - it's region exclusive, yes, but anyone who really wants to can certainly get one via the secondary market. It might get very expensive later, but it's hard to say.
Stop putting words in my mouth and then calling me hyperbolic. And I definitely didn't say anything even close to that in the part you quoted. If I said something like that elsewhere, then quote the relevant part, don't make me go hunt it down.
You know what else lets you say "no"? Curating a playgroup like people did when EDH first got off the ground. I am unsure why so many people seem to think that you have to play the format in an open table setting as opposed to a kitchen table style setting in which the format was birthed. It is rather comical whilst being very confusing.
Because some of us don't live in the same city our whole lives. And not very many of my friends play commander, nor are my friends who DO play commander necessarily the most fun to play commander against, especially when I want more variety. If you're happy playing against the same people over and over over, then bully for you. I've gone through many, many playgroups, through both necessity and choice. This is now likely to be a discussion I have to have with every playgroup I join for the rest of my life.
Not a big fan of that.
I still have not seen a single justifiable reason for banning them. Being cringe isn't really a valid reason. Ruining the format is a pretty bold claim.
These cards alone will probably not ruin the format single-handedly. But the trend of WotC printing commander-targeted cards for $10 each using scummy marketing tactics and cutting out LGSs is absolutely a bad road to walk down and I think could easily lead towards the eventual destruction of the format and magic as a whole. I've already seen quite a few people talk about quitting the game over this (though how serious they are, it's hard to be sure of course).
This isn't the end. But by the time we get to the end, it'll be way too late to do anything about it. This is a critical turning point in the game, and if we don't do something now before it gets worse, I think it might be too late.
I still have not seen a single justifiable reason for banning them. Being cringe isn't really a valid reason. Ruining the format is a pretty bold claim.
In their defense, the existence of this Secret Lair has led multiple content creators to behave wildly irresponsibly with their platforms (in particular Brian and Mitch) and potentially do serious damage to some EDH communities with their hyperbole and petulance. That 'Captain' format is some W I L D 'take my ball and go home' *****. Funny that the people claiming to care about the format are the ones trying to tear it apart lol.
For an apples to apples comparison, there are people on YouTube having complete mental breakdowns about Steve making it into Smash, proclaiming that the game is dead and that if you're happy about it you're a bad person. Un-*******-real. Meanwhile the community reaction in general has been so wholesome and delightful. How are we more toxic than the Smash community? The one where the pedophiles hang out?
I wanted to address this comparison real quick, because I think it's pretty far off. Granted, I don't play smash, and haven't since it was on the N64 (and even then, only at my friends' house and I was always trash at it). The main criticisms of this product fall into buckets of(1) magic shouldn't cross over with (commercial) properties in black border, and (2) printing functionally unique cards only available via secret lair is both predatory and dangerous to the health of tournament formats.
From what I know of smash, it's a format that is nothing BUT crossovers, so complaining about that seems fairly ridiculous to me. Maybe there's a line because it's microsoft instead of nintendo, but at least categorically there's nothing unusual about a crossover within that context, so that's a big strike one. And as far as being predatory, I don't see that either, unless they're selling Steve separately for a limited time only. I'm not saying it's unreasonable for fans to be unhappy with having a character they don't like in the game they love, but it's nowhere near "apples to apples" with this situation.
The original poster has the other RC thread (currently below) and I was super flippant in that thread.
But I finally bothered to watch the videos he linked to trying to work out what his particular problem with the RS is.
The obvious one is that his games do not play out how the RCs games do, but no group will ever be the same as any other group. So making a new RC doesn't fix thatm just makes another RC for people to disagree with.
What is the specific issue do you have with the ban list? because if you are talking about fast mana and combo cards there is basically infinite combo cards there is no way to stop someone determined to combo from comboing or someone out to stax from staxing. Clearly the current RC is banning on popularity, which is why a card like prophet got the axe. It is interesting that they don't think rift is an issue and that we should play around it which is amusing.
As for the walking dead, they made a promise not to do exactly this back when Mana crypt was put into books and it wasn't popular until commander so it wasn't a problem and now they have to keep reprinting it. I think the practice and presicent by WotC is very bad but I see 0 reason for them to be banned in commander when none of them are broken in anyway.
It's got less to do with the cards being broken when it's more about the precedent it sets for future IP Crossovers where Wizards of the Coast has realized that MTG's lore isn't enough to help sell the game to reach a broader audience which is ironic considering that the game never really had to rely on it's own source material or lack there of in order to get to where it became today. It was just something that most players and collectors took for granted when they were more drawn by it's unique gameplay mechanics, tangibility as a collectible item, card combination synergy / possibilities, and it's ability to provide the kind of social interaction that often nowadays gets neglected due to recent advancements in technology.
MTG isn't losing players and collectors because of the game's own lore, they're losing players and collectors because of Wizards of the Coast's own incompetence by only looking out for their shareholders at Hasbro instead of the best interests of the MTG community overall which they've been neglecting ever since they hired Chris Cocks as their CEO to help MTG compete in the digital market more. So until there's a major shakeup within the company and Wizards of the Coast stops lying to Hasbro by pretending their product has sold more than what it actually did by sitting at a warehouse not getting shipped by local distributors to Local Game Stores then nothing is going to change.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I will say though, considering how some of the art sports 'real world' things (leather jackets, baseball bats), i'm not too keen on how WotC decided to go back on their attitude on keeping the aesthetic of magic congruent.
I miss the days where silly looking art and quite serious ones can all come in the same booster pack. I thought i understood wotc's approach in wanting the game to have a more cohesive look, and then they pull out these black bordered life-like, modern era images...
And for what it's worth, there was a 5-0 humans list, i believe it was, in legacy, featuring Rick and Michonne. Yes, they are definitely competitive-format playable.
It's got less to do with the cards being broken when it's more about the precedent it sets for future IP Crossovers where Wizards of the Coast has realized that MTG's lore isn't enough to help sell the game to reach a broader audience which is ironic considering that the game never really had to rely on it's own source material or lack there of in order to get to where it became today. It was just something that most players and collectors took for granted when they were more drawn by it's unique gameplay mechanics, tangibility as a collectible item, card combination synergy / possibilities, and it's ability to provide the kind of social interaction that often nowadays gets neglected due to recent advancements in technology.
I don't know what that actually has to do with trying to encourage the abandonment of something like the RC and Commander in favor of something like Captain and a publicly established committee to manage it. This problem isn't specific to Commander, in any way really.
MTG isn't losing players and collectors because of the game's own lore, they're losing players and collectors because of Wizards of the Coast's own incompetence by only looking out for their shareholders at Hasbro instead of the best interests of the MTG community overall which they've been neglecting ever since they hired Chris Cocks as their CEO to help MTG compete in the digital market more. So until there's a major shakeup within the company and Wizards of the Coast stops lying to Hasbro by pretending their product has sold more than what it actually did by sitting at a warehouse not getting shipped by local distributors to Local Game Stores then nothing is going to change.
I am going to reiterate my misunderstanding here. I don't understand what the problem with these cards are (as it pertains to Commander and the RC). They do not seem particularly broken. Why are people upset that these are legal in Commander?
I get why people do not like them as it pertains to IP bleed and realistic/relatable art. But that has nothing to do with Commander. You don't see people abandoning Legacy or Modern because of them, or even really threatening to...
The conclusion I am going to come to here is that people crying out for bans really have no legitimate reasoning for doing so and their arguments for why they are advocating abandoning the format and RC, are pretty ridiculous. These are the kind of players who I personally feel should just leave the format. It appears they don't seem to enjoy it enough to come up with stronger reasoning for why these cards are a problem (as it pertains to commander), and ultimately appear to be in denial about how they truly feel about the format.
That might seem harsh, but perhaps the 2 biggest problems I have with commander are:
1. Players feeling entitled to play open games with randoms and cry about playing decks they don't like.
2. Players virtue-signaling this 'love' for the format but do nothing other than complain.
People have seem to have forgotten the days where not everyone played Commander outside of you and your close friends. You didn't like something, you talked to them and everyone often kept each other on the same page. It is almost like players these days don't understand how to properly curate a group who shares similar values.
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Just to chime in on the 'Magic is dying' bit: No. Magic is doing great. They literally cannot get enough product to us fast enough. We couldn't fill all of our Jumpstart or Zendikar Rising preorders because distributors shorted us on our shipments due to demand wildly outstripping supply. I get a fatpack from every new set and I can't even find one right now.
Is it doing as well as it was prior to Covid? Of course not, this is a global pandemic and overall spending on luxury items is down. It is by no means in danger though.
I don't understand what the problem with these cards are (as it pertains to Commander and the RC). They do not seem particularly broken. Why are people upset that these are legal in Commander?
I'm fairly certain no one has said that any of them are broken as a reason for disliking/banning them. Ergo, I think one could reasonably surmise that isn't the problem people have with them, and you don't have to keep bringing up that they aren't. We all know they aren't.
People are upset for a lot of reasons, of which I already listed out many but I could certainly list out more. Here's another one that bothers me more, the more I've thought about it - I don't hate these designs. They don't blow me away but I could see playing them. But if I wanted to do that, unless something changes, I would HAVE to play with a card themed around the walking dead, a show that sucks and I don't want to support, or be seen supporting. And frankly, I don't want to look at it when I play my deck either. And who knows what the next cards they might create could be. By branding unique cards around some other IP, they're basically saying "if you want to play these cards, you HAVE to support this IP". That's why godzilla didn't bother me (plus Godzilla doesn't reek of desperate marketing like the walking dead does). I could just choose not to use those versions of the cards. But not so, moving forward.
Largely speaking, there are 2 main problems with many facets: 1) people don't like the flavor, and 2) people don't like the distribution. For my money, #2 is the bigger problem but they're both real bad precedents imo.
I get why people do not like them as it pertains to IP bleed and realistic/relatable art. But that has nothing to do with Commander.
Why does that have nothing to do with commander? If someone plays them, you're going to see that art/IP. If you want to play them because you think they're interesting mechanically, you're going to see that IP/art (unless you proxy them, which you absolutely should).
I mean sure, that's not traditionally a reason to ban a card. I'm not sure putting this at the feet of the RC is fair. But it's 100% relevant to commander as a whole.
You don't see people abandoning Legacy or Modern because of them, or even really threatening to...
1) I think most people assume these won't make an impact on legacy or vintage (I don't believe these are legal in modern). Granted, people are trying, so who knows. I hope they dominate the format and force wotc to address the problem, personally.
2) anyone who's seriously into legacy or vintage (I don't believe these are legal in modern) is probably too invested to want to quit very easily. So until these are actually making a big impact, it's probably not going to send people packing.
3) Tournament magic tends to be a lot less focused on things like flavor. Sure, pros will talk about how they like the flavor, but nobody who takes magic seriously at high REL is going to make any decisions based on the flavor of the card. If Pikachu is a good card in legacy, he's getting played.
The conclusion I am going to come to here is that people crying out for bans really have no legitimate reasoning for doing so and their arguments for why they are advocating abandoning the format and RC, are pretty ridiculous.
Just because you don't agree with the reasons don't mean they aren't legitimate.
I don't think this is good grounds for harassing or hating on the RC. But if this is the direction magic is going, I have to admit I have my doubts that I'll want to stick around forever - as someone who's been playing a long time and has never felt that way before.
These are the kind of players who I personally feel should just leave the format. It appears they don't seem to enjoy it enough to come up with stronger reasoning for why these cards are a problem (as it pertains to commander), and ultimately appear to be in denial about how they truly feel about the format.
This armchair psychologist stuff is both insulting and absurd. Sure, there are people that complain a lot about the format, and maybe some that aren't actually enjoying it - but polls from reddit had something like 93% - with 30,000 votes iirc - in favor of banning these cards. And that's just BANNING, not even the people who dislike them but don't think banning is the right solution. Are you the only person who genuinely likes the format? Everyone else is just a bunch of whiners?
Seriously, cut this out. You sound ridiculous.
That might seem harsh, but perhaps the 2 biggest problems I have with commander are:
1. Players feeling entitled to play open games with randoms and cry about playing decks they don't like.
Even in open games with "randoms" (though there are certainly different degrees of randomness), players can absolutely still avoid decks that they aren't interested in, the majority of the time. It helps to have a discussion ahead of time about power level, and sometimes there are misunderstandings.
Back in 2011 or so, commander was rare enough that I usually had a dedicated group to play in. These days, it's popular enough that it isn't the default anymore, at least in my experience. If only a few people are playing a format, obviously you're going to need to stick with each other so you can actually play. When most players are all playing commander, you're no longer constrained to the same small group, and most people are happy to go out and meet new people when they play. But of course that can cause conflict when expectations differ. That's not unique to commander. It's true of most social interactions, tbh.
Stick to playing with the same people over and over and over if you want. Sounds terribly boring to me.
2. Players virtue-signaling this 'love' for the format but do nothing other than complain.
What a ridiculous use of the phrase "virtue signaling", a phrase that has already been abused so badly I'm not sure it has any meaning at all. I think people just like saying it to demean others. You SAY you love commander, but you don't REALLY, because only I know how to love commander PROPERLY.
Some people complain a lot, yeah. They complain because they care about the format, and that care is built from positive experiences. People don't get so angry about stuff that they don't care about. Maybe for some people those positive experiences are too distant and few, and they should let the format go. But staaaahhhp pretending like you're the one guy who truly loves commander, just because you're happy to accept this ugly corporate shillery from WotC. Or because you haven't gotten bored of playing the same people over and over.
People have seem to have forgotten the days where not everyone played Commander outside of you and your close friends. You didn't like something, you talked to them and everyone often kept each other on the same page. It is almost like players these days don't understand how to properly curate a group who shares similar values.
It's almost like that's not the way many people play commander.
"I don't understand why people are upset about people cheating in video games - back in my day we only ever did LAN parties, so you could just talk it over with your friends!"
Yeah, ok, cool solution grandpa. Let's all pretend it's 2009 again. Best solution ever.
EDIT: Having thought it over some more, I think the "but you can just ban them with the 3 friends you've played commander with for the past decade" isn't so much an infeasible solution so much as a misdirect. These five/six cards are only a tiny part of the problem with this product and the signal it sends. It's a signal that wotc is going to become more predatory towards its customers, that it's going to sell out the aesthetics of the game to whoever it thinks stands to get it the most money. You can hide in a hole and ban those cards in a local group every time they come up, but that's the direction the game as a whole is going if this progress continues.
Personally, even if I was in a situation where everyone I played with agreed not to play these cards, that still wouldn't fix the problem for me - not at all, really. Because the problem isn't the cards, the problem is that I don't want to support a company that cares so little about its customers that it will gouge them $50 for 6 cards and prey on their FOMO to sell it. I don't want to support a company that's so desperate to wring every last dollar from its product that it'll cut out LGSs, even if it'll hurt the game long-term. I don't want to support a company that will whore itself out to a trashy show like The Walking Dead to make a quick buck. I thought Magic had more integrity than that. And if WotC's message to its customers is "hey, we don't care about making a great game that will please our customers - we care about wringing money out of them no matter the cost", then I don't really want to support them anymore.
You came to a thread complaining about them in Commander - to talk about how legitimate people's complaints are, outside the context of commander...
Is the long and short of it. You also have the gall to act like I am where the breakdown in communication is, when you are starting to straw man this entire thread lol.
What a joke.
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Its a crazy idea, I know it would be extremely hard to manage this but what if the community could come together and make our RC, meaning our own banned list (done via voting through straw pull or something like that). The common idea is this is a community driven format, let’s make it that. We can just rename the format EDH-community format?
Again just spitballing this idea. Not trying to get people fired, just seeing what our opinions are.
On a side note, why is everyone so upset with the walking dead thing? Yeah it is dumb that wizards did it and made them black border, but getting upset that the RC didn’t ban legal black border cards is one of the silliest things I have seen the commander community get upset over and I remember people wanting Concentrated Sphinx banned.
If some famous commander personality like the command zone tried, maybe they'd have SOME traction (although still almost certainly fail). If EDHrec tried, same thing most likely. If WotC DID depose the RC, maybe in the kerfuffle there'd be a chance for someone else to take up the mantle, though it'd still be very unlikely. But randos in the community absolutely no chance ever.
People are upset about the walking dead thing for a lot of reasons, but I think the biggest reason is that how they sell secret lairs is predatory. It's the same BS a lot of video games use, trying to trigger people's FOMO so they'll buy stuff they don't even really want, just because they're worried they won't be able to buy it later, or it'll get way more expensive and they'll wish they had it, etc. When it was just alt versions of existing cards, at least the value of the originals couldn't go up, so it didn't tip people off. With this, it's obvious wotc is preying on commander players specifically. The RC should have banned them to protect the commander community from being taken advantage of.
Plus, I mean, I really don't want to play a version of magic that's getting infested by other franchises. Least of all a crappy one like TWD. If it's silver border I'm usually happy to allow it. But forcing us to accept it is massively overreaching imo. It's the difference between asking to visit and home invasion.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
My local store has their Commander banned list posted at the counter. It's similar to, but slightly different from the official banned list.
My playgroup doesn't use a banned list at all. But we're all friends, so we make an effort to be courteous. We try to match power levels. If someone asks "No counters" or "No infinite combos" for a game or two, we will just go along with it.
But it's not going to work on a large scale. If you try to get a game with a stranger, they are going to assume you are using the official list.
Some stores still do this, our store had a custom banned list for years. Last year one of the owners sold their share of it and the new owner that came in, had simply scrapped it and went with the official list.
Unfortunately, this dumpster fire is blazin' and there isn't really any way to put it out at this point. The RC is what it is and will almost certainly continue.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
Now If Captain banned the use of the Reserve List aside from the Walking Dead Secret Lair cards and similar cards like it then that would only splinter the MTG community further. The problem is how much would Captain differentiate itself from EDH / Commander to where it's just as appealing or more appealing? That's the real challenge that this supposed new committee would need to tackle cause it's not just a matter of introducing a new concept of a format and then just walk away to see If it takes off or not. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was Elder Dragon Highlander (EDH).
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
1) It's a blatantly predatory business model. "If you miss a drop, it's gone forever" or whatever their stupid slogan is. They're obviously preying on peoples' FOMO to sell these things, because people are worried they might want it later and the price will skyrocket. It's the same psychologically manipulative tactics that mobile games have been "pioneering" in an effort to force people to part with their money as effectively as possible. This was semi-acceptable with reprints since at least those cards were already available at whatever the price was, but with these, there's really no telling where the price will go.
2) The price is extortionary. Ignoring the tokens because who gives a damn, you're paying $10 per card, assuming you're in a place where you don't have to pay import taxes or whatever else. That's a price we're used to because of the singles market, but the reason some singles are worth $10+ is because of all the many, many, many cards that AREN'T worth that much. For every $10 piece of cardboard WotC produces for a penny, they make hundreds of worthless cards for the same cost, and leave it to the secondary market to sort out what is worth what. By straight-up selling cards for $10, they're putting in almost zero effort and blatantly ripping players off.
3) There is already a precedent for crossovers in magic, in fact there have been two: silver border cards, which almost everyone I've met is happy to allow in a game of casual commander so long as they aren't being abused, and the godzilla "alt-art" versions from Ikoria. Either of these would have been acceptable to most people, but they didn't do either - because if they did alt-arts, then they wouldn't be able to prey on FOMO because most people would just pick them up in a normal version, and if they did silver-border, then players wouldn't consider them "real cards" and so they wouldn't feel it as necessary to pick them up and they won't sell as many copies (likely only fans of TWD would pick them up, which imo ought to be the goal anyway). It's a blatantly greedy move to push the cards without regard for how players are going to feel about them.
4) Having non-magic IP, especially modern day real-world-adjacent IP, forced into the game is annoying and immersion breaking. Personally I'm a little luke-warm on this point since I'd be happy to see, for example, a set based around lord of the rings or some similarly venerable IP, but as someone who watched the first 3-4 seasons of TWD, it's a garbage show that gets way more marketing push than it deserves. Having TWD cards forced into the the game feels like an advertisement for a commercial product, not a fun flavor change.
5) Selling these cards online only cuts out the LGS, which are already struggling significantly thanks to the pandemic, and certainly haven't been helped by the advent of arena either. It's a move that feels like it's focused on the short-term gains of "cutting out the middle-man", but at the sacrifice of the long-term health of paper play.
6) These aren't available in all regions, which isn't fair to players in those regions (I'm also lukewarm on this point since I don't think anyone should buy them).
7) If they ever become tournament viable - probably not this batch, but who knows with future batches - not only might that cause a catastrophic price surge, but it also might mean that high-level magic play is being dominated by Mickey Mouse or whatever other cringy IP WotC is shilling for.
8) Probably the most minor note, but I guess Negan has done some bad stuff on the show (beyond the expected murder and whatnot) to where it might be kinda weird to play him as a commander - like imagine if Jeffrey Epstein was a commander. No clue, I finally gave up right about the time he was introduced and at this point I refuse to care about TWD on principle.
9) most importantly, these set a TERRIBLE precedent for what could happen in the future. Tons of crossovers with awful IPs (someone's mentioned fortnite is possible...just shoot me), the potential for legacy-viable cards, or maybe even standard-legal cards, or even just powerful commanders that become must-haves, at extortionary prices that cut out LGSs while they bleed commander players dry. Some of those are more slippery-slopey than others, but the additional IPs is basically confirmed by WotC. If this was a one-and-done product I'd be annoyed but I'd get over it, but I think this is likely to be the beginning of the end for what we once called magic - and I don't say that lightly. I've never felt this way before in almost twenty years of playing, in fact I've usually defended WotC. But this is completely different, and if we don't do something about it, this game is going to go downhill very quickly.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
This. As long as you can communicate among members of your playgroup it makes the game not need a ban list at all. Most people I've played with even outside my play group will announce ahead of time if they have some sort of truly perverse deck that's going to leave you traumatized for life. Like a deck that goes infinite with release the ants on turn one or two - and no one is banning release the ants.
If you have a fear of missing out on these products, then try to buy them. If you miss out on them, so what? You suddenly cannot play commander and have fun anymore?
Limited print runs also drastically reduces the odds that these cards even make it into your commander experience. So I am not sure the IP bleeding is really a valid argument.
I think the crossover stuff is incredibly cringe. Godzilla cards were pretty gross. D&D crossover sounds even more disgusting. These TWD cards are pretty deplorable.
But to call for the cancelation of the RC over this stuff, seems kind of petty. We have commander players here that loved the Godzilla cards but have never played them. They just stuck them in their show off binder and called it a day. New mechanics also rarely have enough support to spawn a consistent enough deck where crossover cards are going to thematically make a game feel off.
I think people are completely overreacting here.
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WotC's predatory model here isn't bad because I personally might miss out, or worry about missing out. It's bad because it's simply morally wrong. There are many people out there - and while do I have these tendencies, personally I can keep them in check in this instance - who are going to see a product that's only available for a short time and decide they have to buy it, not because they actually want it, but because they're worried they might want it later. And in particular the structure of MtG makes they predatory practice really powerful, because unlike a limited edition figurine or whatever, not just the value but also the function of these cards could change with the release of future cards. Maybe Rick doesn't look legacy viable now, but maybe WotC makes some really pushed human tribal cards in the future and suddenly he's an in-demand 3-of for a top-tier legacy deck. There's also such a short window between the announcement and the "gotta buy it right now" window that there's not much time to test these cards with proxies, for players who might want to do some research for buying, or who just might want more time to think it over. Most cards are easily available for years before supplies start to dry up, which gives plenty of time for those cards to be tested and proven in various formats - whether that's a competitive format or casual commander. With these, you've gotta buy 'em RIGHT NOW BUY THEM RIGHT NOW OR YOU'LL NEVER HAVE THEM. And who knows what the next set will look like, or the next, or the next? It took WotC TWO unique BaB promos to screw up and make one standard-competitive. We're just going to hope that doesn't happen again, except potentially much worse, this time? They're playing with fire here, fire they've proven they cannot control, and they're doing it out of greed, pure and simple. It's wrong and they know it's wrong.
And the price point, seriously, is just so egregious. I don't know what their margins are, but it's safe to say that this is absolutely insane. Normal packs you're getting 15 pieces of cardboard for $3, give or take. $1 for 5. This is fifty times that price for the same stuff. Yes, singles get expensive, but they get expensive on the backs of all the other cards that wotc makes that don't. And more importantly, wotc isn't directly benefitting off the skyrocketing cost of cards, especially old cards, whereas in this case they're deliberately causing it. It's the difference between someone dying in an accident and being murdered.
I don't necessarily mind IP bleed as much as most - I love seeing pop culture alters for the most part (I've got an genie transforming abu alter of [[pongify]] for example), I'm happy to play against silver-bordered cards, and I love P3k - in fact I wish they did more similar things, because I really don't give a crap about the MtG story or characters and everything I read from it makes me cringe. But The Walking Dead is, imo, a very very poor choice of crossover IP for a couple reasons:
1) It takes place in a near-real-world, and the cards depict real human actors. This is way more jarring to me than any Kaiju.
2) More importantly, TWD is a currently running commercial product, and WotC partnering with them is essentially selling us advertisements for that show. That is a huge difference between, say, P3K which afaik isn't shilling for any Chinese history books. Luckily I'm not super interested in the design of any of these cards, but if I were, I'd be very bothered by being forced to run one themed around another commercial property like TWD. Sure, Godzilla technically is too, but I sure haven't seen any movies advertised for Spacegodzilla or Mechagodzilla or whatever. They're old enough to feel like general cultural consciousness, and not something trying to sell itself right now. And more importantly they're available in normal "magic" versions so I'm not forced to play with them, and I don't (except death corona because that's too gold to pass up).
3) Less importantly, The Walking Dead is just the worst show. It blows my mind that people still watch that dreck and think it's actually good. Season 1 was mediocre and then season 2 was already unforgivably bad in so many ways - boring, contrived, nonsensical, boring, poorly-written, under-budgeted, boring, and with few, if any, redeeming characters. If this was a crossover with a property I had even a modicum of respect for, I'd be a lot more conflicted, but there are few shows I have less respect for than TWD. Thirteen Reasons Why, there we go, I found one. If they partner with 13RW I will throw my magic collection off a bridge.
By making these cards TWD, they're saying that if I want to play these cards, I have to support the walking dead and play with cards that have their names and images on them. That is a massive barf from me. As mentioned, none of these hugely appeal (I guess I might want to try Negan out? But it's certainly not a pressing need) but who knows what the future might hold with future lairs that might have more interesting mechanics with flavor I dislike? I also don't relish the idea of getting my ass kicked by Ronald McDonald because they pushed their mcdonalds crossover to hell and back. Silver border lets me say "no", black border does not.
All that said, I'm certainly not calling for deposing the RC. I wish they had banned them, and I think they should have, but I do understand their reasoning - a banlist really isn't the "proper" way to prevent these things from happening. I happen to think it's still an effective way, and that when faced with the potential ruination of the format, efficacy is more important that decorum, but I don't think they should get removed for their opinion, definitely not.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
That's really the long-and-short of all of this.
People have too much free time on their hands right now so they spend it all screeching about things that don't really matter instead of using that energy doing something useful.
For an apples to apples comparison, there are people on YouTube having complete mental breakdowns about Steve making it into Smash, proclaiming that the game is dead and that if you're happy about it you're a bad person. Un-*******-real. Meanwhile the community reaction in general has been so wholesome and delightful. How are we more toxic than the Smash community? The one where the pedophiles hang out?
Like, have y'all never experienced any sort of strife before? Just because a company produces a product that you don't like doesn't mean the world is ending. SMDH, I'm out here working my butt off every day, protesting injustice in the streets when I have time, there's a constant stream of news about more murder and disease, and every day now I'm coming home to read hyperbolic melodrama about Magic being dead. Its like watching the Kardashians these people are so out of touch with reality.
Magic is fine. Commander/EDH is fine. Everybody breath. It is ok to not like something. The world doesn't end when you don't like something.
(That said, I don't really hate the idea of taking the format away from the RC but that's an unrelated matter lolol)
They're cool cards - there I said it.
It's the model that flips me out.
I don't think I missed the point at all. People are clamoring about making a new RC and canceling Commander and the RC in favor of Captain...
I asked WHY, and your response seems to either have nothing to do with the situation as it pertains to Commander, or they are naive points. I think it is as cringe as the next guy, but this discussion of canceling the RC and Commander is pretty rediculous.
Yet this isn't new. People have been dealing with card availability in MTG since... forever. People will meet this situation as they always have in the format... just proxy them. Exclusivity is nothing new to the game, the only difference is that now it isn't driven by the secondary market. Plenty of companies market on this axis without being called predatory, so why is MTG unable to do the same without receiving backlash?
The product is limited to the point where I think these complaints are just kind of ridiculous to draw the conclusion that they are ruining the game. You are talking about the exclusiveness of the product while simultaneously advocating that it is going to heavily permeate MTG to the point where it is shoved in everyone's face. Talk about speaking in hyperbole.
You know what else lets you say "no"? Curating a playgroup like people did when EDH first got off the ground. I am unsure why so many people seem to think that you have to play the format in an open table setting as opposed to a kitchen table style setting in which the format was birthed. It is rather comical whilst being very confusing.
I still have not seen a single justifiable reason for banning them. Being cringe isn't really a valid reason. Ruining the format is a pretty bold claim.
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It's a major part of my life. If I think it's under threat, yeah, I'm going to take that seriously. And for the record, this is the only time I've felt this way, and I've been playing for 18 years. I'm not a constant "sky is falling" guy when it comes to magic. This is unprecedented. I'm sympathetic to BLM protesters (I went to one climate protest...It's not much, but tbh it really just wasn't my speed), but I'm a selfish guy and I focus on what affects me most, personally. Magic affects me a lot. And as someone who spends a lot of money on the game and a lot of time talking about it, I actually have a relatively loud voice compared to my opinions on police brutality and carbon emissions.
I never advocated removing the RC so please stop bringing it up - that's never been my argument. I disagree strongly with them but I don't have any intention to disassociate the format from them.
It pertains strongly to commander (and the reason why banning them would have likely been very effective) because these are clearly targeted at commander players. Remove them from the format and WotC will be disincentivized from producing similar products in black border, which is the goal. Is the banlist the "right" way to do that? Not really, but when somebody is trying to kill me, if I've got a fork at hand I'm not going to quibble over whether stabbing is the proper use of a fork.
(what a weird metaphor)
Yes, lots of mobile/VG companies pull similar stunts, because they've done lots of research on how to build perfect skinner boxes for separating people from their money. And yes, those companies are called predatory and rightfully so, and they do receive backlash. Forgive me if I'm not thrilled to see WotC taking a massive step down the same path.
Card availability has been a problem, yes, but say what you will about the reserved list - wotc doesn't benefit from it. If anything it hurts them, probably quite a bit. Intent matters. There's a big difference between something happening accidentally and something happening on purpose. A volcano killing someone is unfortunate, but it's not evil. When a person kills someone else intentionally, then it's time to start laying down the moral judgments.
When have I ever said that these were going to heavily permeate magic? Seriously, what is this insane straw man bull*****?
For that matter, I haven't really said much about it being exclusive - it's region exclusive, yes, but anyone who really wants to can certainly get one via the secondary market. It might get very expensive later, but it's hard to say.
Stop putting words in my mouth and then calling me hyperbolic. And I definitely didn't say anything even close to that in the part you quoted. If I said something like that elsewhere, then quote the relevant part, don't make me go hunt it down.
Because some of us don't live in the same city our whole lives. And not very many of my friends play commander, nor are my friends who DO play commander necessarily the most fun to play commander against, especially when I want more variety. If you're happy playing against the same people over and over over, then bully for you. I've gone through many, many playgroups, through both necessity and choice. This is now likely to be a discussion I have to have with every playgroup I join for the rest of my life.
Not a big fan of that.
These cards alone will probably not ruin the format single-handedly. But the trend of WotC printing commander-targeted cards for $10 each using scummy marketing tactics and cutting out LGSs is absolutely a bad road to walk down and I think could easily lead towards the eventual destruction of the format and magic as a whole. I've already seen quite a few people talk about quitting the game over this (though how serious they are, it's hard to be sure of course).
This isn't the end. But by the time we get to the end, it'll be way too late to do anything about it. This is a critical turning point in the game, and if we don't do something now before it gets worse, I think it might be too late.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
In their defense, the existence of this Secret Lair has led multiple content creators to behave wildly irresponsibly with their platforms (in particular Brian and Mitch) and potentially do serious damage to some EDH communities with their hyperbole and petulance. That 'Captain' format is some W I L D 'take my ball and go home' *****. Funny that the people claiming to care about the format are the ones trying to tear it apart lol.
From what I know of smash, it's a format that is nothing BUT crossovers, so complaining about that seems fairly ridiculous to me. Maybe there's a line because it's microsoft instead of nintendo, but at least categorically there's nothing unusual about a crossover within that context, so that's a big strike one. And as far as being predatory, I don't see that either, unless they're selling Steve separately for a limited time only. I'm not saying it's unreasonable for fans to be unhappy with having a character they don't like in the game they love, but it's nowhere near "apples to apples" with this situation.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
But I finally bothered to watch the videos he linked to trying to work out what his particular problem with the RS is.
The obvious one is that his games do not play out how the RCs games do, but no group will ever be the same as any other group. So making a new RC doesn't fix thatm just makes another RC for people to disagree with.
What is the specific issue do you have with the ban list? because if you are talking about fast mana and combo cards there is basically infinite combo cards there is no way to stop someone determined to combo from comboing or someone out to stax from staxing. Clearly the current RC is banning on popularity, which is why a card like prophet got the axe. It is interesting that they don't think rift is an issue and that we should play around it which is amusing.
As for the walking dead, they made a promise not to do exactly this back when Mana crypt was put into books and it wasn't popular until commander so it wasn't a problem and now they have to keep reprinting it. I think the practice and presicent by WotC is very bad but I see 0 reason for them to be banned in commander when none of them are broken in anyway.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
MTG isn't losing players and collectors because of the game's own lore, they're losing players and collectors because of Wizards of the Coast's own incompetence by only looking out for their shareholders at Hasbro instead of the best interests of the MTG community overall which they've been neglecting ever since they hired Chris Cocks as their CEO to help MTG compete in the digital market more. So until there's a major shakeup within the company and Wizards of the Coast stops lying to Hasbro by pretending their product has sold more than what it actually did by sitting at a warehouse not getting shipped by local distributors to Local Game Stores then nothing is going to change.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I miss the days where silly looking art and quite serious ones can all come in the same booster pack. I thought i understood wotc's approach in wanting the game to have a more cohesive look, and then they pull out these black bordered life-like, modern era images...
And for what it's worth, there was a 5-0 humans list, i believe it was, in legacy, featuring Rick and Michonne. Yes, they are definitely competitive-format playable.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
I don't know what that actually has to do with trying to encourage the abandonment of something like the RC and Commander in favor of something like Captain and a publicly established committee to manage it. This problem isn't specific to Commander, in any way really.
I am going to reiterate my misunderstanding here. I don't understand what the problem with these cards are (as it pertains to Commander and the RC). They do not seem particularly broken. Why are people upset that these are legal in Commander?
I get why people do not like them as it pertains to IP bleed and realistic/relatable art. But that has nothing to do with Commander. You don't see people abandoning Legacy or Modern because of them, or even really threatening to...
The conclusion I am going to come to here is that people crying out for bans really have no legitimate reasoning for doing so and their arguments for why they are advocating abandoning the format and RC, are pretty ridiculous. These are the kind of players who I personally feel should just leave the format. It appears they don't seem to enjoy it enough to come up with stronger reasoning for why these cards are a problem (as it pertains to commander), and ultimately appear to be in denial about how they truly feel about the format.
That might seem harsh, but perhaps the 2 biggest problems I have with commander are:
1. Players feeling entitled to play open games with randoms and cry about playing decks they don't like.
2. Players virtue-signaling this 'love' for the format but do nothing other than complain.
People have seem to have forgotten the days where not everyone played Commander outside of you and your close friends. You didn't like something, you talked to them and everyone often kept each other on the same page. It is almost like players these days don't understand how to properly curate a group who shares similar values.
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Is it doing as well as it was prior to Covid? Of course not, this is a global pandemic and overall spending on luxury items is down. It is by no means in danger though.
I'm fairly certain no one has said that any of them are broken as a reason for disliking/banning them. Ergo, I think one could reasonably surmise that isn't the problem people have with them, and you don't have to keep bringing up that they aren't. We all know they aren't.
People are upset for a lot of reasons, of which I already listed out many but I could certainly list out more. Here's another one that bothers me more, the more I've thought about it - I don't hate these designs. They don't blow me away but I could see playing them. But if I wanted to do that, unless something changes, I would HAVE to play with a card themed around the walking dead, a show that sucks and I don't want to support, or be seen supporting. And frankly, I don't want to look at it when I play my deck either. And who knows what the next cards they might create could be. By branding unique cards around some other IP, they're basically saying "if you want to play these cards, you HAVE to support this IP". That's why godzilla didn't bother me (plus Godzilla doesn't reek of desperate marketing like the walking dead does). I could just choose not to use those versions of the cards. But not so, moving forward.
Largely speaking, there are 2 main problems with many facets: 1) people don't like the flavor, and 2) people don't like the distribution. For my money, #2 is the bigger problem but they're both real bad precedents imo.
Why does that have nothing to do with commander? If someone plays them, you're going to see that art/IP. If you want to play them because you think they're interesting mechanically, you're going to see that IP/art (unless you proxy them, which you absolutely should).
I mean sure, that's not traditionally a reason to ban a card. I'm not sure putting this at the feet of the RC is fair. But it's 100% relevant to commander as a whole.
1) I think most people assume these won't make an impact on legacy or vintage (I don't believe these are legal in modern). Granted, people are trying, so who knows. I hope they dominate the format and force wotc to address the problem, personally.
2) anyone who's seriously into legacy or vintage (I don't believe these are legal in modern) is probably too invested to want to quit very easily. So until these are actually making a big impact, it's probably not going to send people packing.
3) Tournament magic tends to be a lot less focused on things like flavor. Sure, pros will talk about how they like the flavor, but nobody who takes magic seriously at high REL is going to make any decisions based on the flavor of the card. If Pikachu is a good card in legacy, he's getting played.
Just because you don't agree with the reasons don't mean they aren't legitimate.
I don't think this is good grounds for harassing or hating on the RC. But if this is the direction magic is going, I have to admit I have my doubts that I'll want to stick around forever - as someone who's been playing a long time and has never felt that way before.
This armchair psychologist stuff is both insulting and absurd. Sure, there are people that complain a lot about the format, and maybe some that aren't actually enjoying it - but polls from reddit had something like 93% - with 30,000 votes iirc - in favor of banning these cards. And that's just BANNING, not even the people who dislike them but don't think banning is the right solution. Are you the only person who genuinely likes the format? Everyone else is just a bunch of whiners?
Seriously, cut this out. You sound ridiculous.
Even in open games with "randoms" (though there are certainly different degrees of randomness), players can absolutely still avoid decks that they aren't interested in, the majority of the time. It helps to have a discussion ahead of time about power level, and sometimes there are misunderstandings.
Back in 2011 or so, commander was rare enough that I usually had a dedicated group to play in. These days, it's popular enough that it isn't the default anymore, at least in my experience. If only a few people are playing a format, obviously you're going to need to stick with each other so you can actually play. When most players are all playing commander, you're no longer constrained to the same small group, and most people are happy to go out and meet new people when they play. But of course that can cause conflict when expectations differ. That's not unique to commander. It's true of most social interactions, tbh.
Stick to playing with the same people over and over and over if you want. Sounds terribly boring to me.
What a ridiculous use of the phrase "virtue signaling", a phrase that has already been abused so badly I'm not sure it has any meaning at all. I think people just like saying it to demean others. You SAY you love commander, but you don't REALLY, because only I know how to love commander PROPERLY.
Some people complain a lot, yeah. They complain because they care about the format, and that care is built from positive experiences. People don't get so angry about stuff that they don't care about. Maybe for some people those positive experiences are too distant and few, and they should let the format go. But staaaahhhp pretending like you're the one guy who truly loves commander, just because you're happy to accept this ugly corporate shillery from WotC. Or because you haven't gotten bored of playing the same people over and over.
It's almost like that's not the way many people play commander.
"I don't understand why people are upset about people cheating in video games - back in my day we only ever did LAN parties, so you could just talk it over with your friends!"
Yeah, ok, cool solution grandpa. Let's all pretend it's 2009 again. Best solution ever.
EDIT: Having thought it over some more, I think the "but you can just ban them with the 3 friends you've played commander with for the past decade" isn't so much an infeasible solution so much as a misdirect. These five/six cards are only a tiny part of the problem with this product and the signal it sends. It's a signal that wotc is going to become more predatory towards its customers, that it's going to sell out the aesthetics of the game to whoever it thinks stands to get it the most money. You can hide in a hole and ban those cards in a local group every time they come up, but that's the direction the game as a whole is going if this progress continues.
Personally, even if I was in a situation where everyone I played with agreed not to play these cards, that still wouldn't fix the problem for me - not at all, really. Because the problem isn't the cards, the problem is that I don't want to support a company that cares so little about its customers that it will gouge them $50 for 6 cards and prey on their FOMO to sell it. I don't want to support a company that's so desperate to wring every last dollar from its product that it'll cut out LGSs, even if it'll hurt the game long-term. I don't want to support a company that will whore itself out to a trashy show like The Walking Dead to make a quick buck. I thought Magic had more integrity than that. And if WotC's message to its customers is "hey, we don't care about making a great game that will please our customers - we care about wringing money out of them no matter the cost", then I don't really want to support them anymore.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Is the long and short of it. You also have the gall to act like I am where the breakdown in communication is, when you are starting to straw man this entire thread lol.
What a joke.
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