Not to derail further, but I like that both cEDH and Commander exist - oil and water - and the interplay between the two in the power levels where they can reasonably intermingle are some of the most interesting to me. Taking the ideas generated in cEDH and attempting to casualize it is a lot of fun to me - taking objectively uncompetitive strategies and commanders and attempting to dial them up to 11 with a cEDH mindset. Casual ideas built competitively. I don't know that I'd enjoy as much, the echo chamber that would develop without controversial outside viewpoints.
Holy hell that's an incredibly toxic way of looking at things, Dirk. The scawy cEDH people are definitely not out to get you, but those are some pretty ferocious straw men you've got there.
I sincerely hope you're just trolling and I'm just not catching the sarcasm.
Holy hell that's an incredibly toxic way of looking at things, Dirk. The scawy cEDH people are definitely not out to get you, but those are some pretty ferocious straw men you've got there.
I sincerely hope you're just trolling and I'm just not catching the sarcasm.
I wish it was a straw man. I see it happening online. I see it happening right in front of my face every time I play at my LGS.
When I first started playing commander, playing any infinite combos was tryhard behavior. Now, if I polled the players at my LGS I doubt a single one doesn't have a deck with a combo wincon in it somewhere. I've repeatedly heard people say that they need to have a combo somewhere in the deck to make it viable, and it makes me cringe. When I lose a game, a solid 70% of the time it's from a combo. That used to be almost unheard of. And I know it's not just me because everyone else I've talked to online has seen the format shift more competitive as well. Posts about someone's once-casual group shifting closer to cEDH are commonplace.
How much is this the fault of cEDH as compared to the existence of online resources or wotc's power creep? Hard to say, they all contribute. Is the blurring of the line intentional subversion on cEDH's part - are they "out to get [the format]"? Most likely not. But it's still happening, and cEDH players sure aren't in a hurry to prevent it. They want to talk about their format, the same as everyone else does, and this is the unavoidable result. All the time I'll see people ask for help, get answered by a cEDH player with cEDH advice, and they'll gobble it up because they lack the experience to understand the distinction. I see it online, I see it in person. I see the reverence new players have for the local cEDH players' decks, and how they wish they could build decks like them.
Keeping a casual format casual may well be an impossible task, and one day the difference between commander and cEDH may well be almost indistinguishable. They're getting closer together every day. Of course some people will always keep the flame alive, so the two formats will never truly be one, but mainstream commander is constantly in a slide towards more and more competitive - slow, yes, but inexorable. And cEDH will always be happy to receive the benefits of that, whistling a jaunty tune and pretending that it's just a coincidence.
You're really leaning hard into the victim complex stuff my dude, let's dissect this a bit.
I don't think you can really in good faith make the claim that combo is inherently bad, or that it's wrong to include them in the average deck. Some people enjoy playing combos. Some people just want their decks to be good. It is an unfortunate side-effect of the way the format is meant to be played that aggressive strategies are just not as effective as going infinite. The game has to end at some point, and I know that I've consciously made the decision to include at least one way to immediately end the game in every deck because playing one game that drags on the for the entire night makes me want to kill myself.
And can you really blame people for looking at a cEDH deck and saying 'wow that looks awesome!' when they're such finely tuned works of art? When the cards in them are often obscenely expensive? People like shiny things, and a solid cEDH deck is very, very shiny indeed. Its like gawking at an ancient heirloom katana when you've been playing with boffing sticks. They both have their place and they're both fun, but come on it is only natural.
I wouldn't be too worried about the extinction of casual EDH, from my experience the ends of the format keep getting further and further apart from each other, not closer, as folks naturally separate themselves into distinct cliques based on what they want out of the game.
You're really leaning hard into the victim complex stuff my dude, let's dissect this a bit.
Oh, let's. This is very therapeutic, a long-overdue leeching to get all these bad humors out of my system.
I don't think you can really in good faith make the claim that combo is inherently bad, or that it's wrong to include them in the average deck.
I find combo a very unsatisfying way to end a game - especially when it's the same boring, well-trod combos that have been winning games for years and years. A game that was interesting and unique ending yet again to high tide palinchron is extremely frustrating imo.
Playing a game of commander is like telling a story. A combo win is the equivalent of "rocks fall, everyone dies".
Some people enjoy playing combos.
Great, do it somewhere else.
Some people just want their decks to be good.
Great, do it somewhere else.
It is an unfortunate side-effect of the way the format is meant to be played that aggressive strategies are just not as effective as going infinite. The game has to end at some point, and I know that I've consciously made the decision to include at least one way to immediately end the game in every deck because playing one game that drags on the for the entire night makes me want to kill myself.
That's exactly the logic I hear from players at my LGS. And you know what I think to myself? If you don't like long games, GO PLAY ANOTHER FORMAT. When I started playing, 2+ hour games were the norm, sometimes as long as 5 hours or more. And we loved it.
Part of this is the fault of commander becoming too popular. More people means that it's no longer a specialized format exclusively for people who want a long epic game. Personally I think the life total should be lowered to encourage non-combo strategies, but that's another conversation. There's a multitude of factors pushing commander more and more competitive, few of them intentional. But intentional or not, the ones who benefit from it are the cEDH players, so they receive the brunt of my furious rage.
And can you really blame people for looking at a cEDH deck and saying 'wow that looks awesome!' when they're such finely tuned works of art?
Whoever first thought up [insert combo/deck here] has my respect - although I still don't want to play with them. The million imitators? No, I think it's boring as hell. Plagiarism isn't a work of art. It's a competitive necessity, but art it ain't. And while I understand people netdecking for standard, I find netdecking for commander to be nothing short of pathetic. And I think the only people who would find it "awesome" are those too green to know any better.
When the cards in them are often obscenely expensive? People like shiny things, and a solid cEDH deck is very, very shiny indeed. Its like gawking at an ancient heirloom katana when you've been playing with boffing sticks. They both have their place and they're both fun, but come on it is only natural.
I get why new players are impressed by expensive cards, and I know that's part of the allure of playing these decks. I'm not complaining when people are impressed by my collection, it's kinda fun. I don't blame them, it's nobody's fault, really. But that doesn't mean it's not contributing to the degradation of the format.
A cEDH player is exactly the kind of person I'd expect would make a metaphor involving katanas. No offense.
I wouldn't be too worried about the extinction of casual EDH, from my experience the ends of the format keep getting further and further apart from each other, not closer, as folks naturally separate themselves into distinct cliques based on what they want out of the game.
That experience has not been mine, nor most people's from what I can tell.
I don't think it'll ever go extinct by any stretch. But the line will be less and less well-defined. Most people at my LGS are still playing at a relatively low power level and I don't think that'll change - thank god for the reserved list sometimes. But will change, and is changing, is the culture. cEDH is less and less a separate format now than it was a few years ago, or a few years before that. The new players aspire to play at the cEDH table, held back only by budget and skill (skill in cedh, lol that must have been a typo). cEDH decks are more and more likely to join in at non-cEDH tables. Because there aren't "cEDH decks" and "everything else" anymore, it's a slow gradation of power as people strive to push their decks to the lofty plateau of perceived cEDH greatness. Some people self-limit, to be sure, but that percentage is getting lower and lower with every year. And wotc doesn't exactly help when they print obnoxious commanders every set, making it easier and easier to stretch the limits of what power level is acceptable.
For someone called cranky, I am out-cranky-ing the hell out of you right now.
I think that it is true to some extent that the RC's views are narrow but its more so because there is no national meta. Every meta is different with commander and a lot of levels of play exist where as when you look at other formats like modern, standard, legacy there are tournament results to fall back on and in most LGS you will see some level of presence of national meta decks trickle down.
I don't think its really the RC's fault and I don't really think there is an easy solution to solve it. The concept of the advisor's committee giving additional feedback is a decent idea but I think it far from solves the problem of needing more exposure to more metas for additional sample size data.
I think as a whole, the RC does a decent job. I personally would prefer a larger banned list but I think given what objectives the RC has set out with they have managed their banned list fairly close to how I would want it given the objective of a smaller banned list.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
People don't want narrative in games, they just want power.
I agree cEDH ruins everything.
To the surprise of no one one new guy who turned up for a week or two who had the cEDH mindset ended up getting himself banned after arguing with the store manager. Not a related matter but it's reflective of the overall personality.
I know what the c really stands for and it's not something pleasant I can say on the forums.
People don't want narrative in games, they just want power.
I agree cEDH ruins everything.
To the surprise of no one one new guy who turned up for a week or two who had the cEDH mindset ended up getting himself banned after arguing with the store manager. Not a related matter but it's reflective of the overall personality.
I know what the c really stands for and it's not something pleasant I can say on the forums.
That just blows my mind, I've had the exact opposite experience. I've yet to have one issue with anyone who plays cEDH, but I've got a thousand lifetimes worth of horror stories about being aggressively mistreated by casual players. In particular the more casual they claim to be, the nastier they seem to get. There's a super-budget EDH variant in this area and they're absolutely the meanest players I've ever met. You ever get yelled at by a guy who played 4 mana doublers on his last turn for countering his full-tap Stroke of Genius, because you're somehow supposed to know that he has no win-condition?
I know I was not going to partake in this conversation anymore, but this tab was still open in my laptop browser and it refreshed so I figured I would see where the discussion went.
I think this "combo players need to go play somewhere else" stance is kind of foolish.
Perhaps the biggest issue in Commander these days, is the sitdown and play mentality. People who don't curate their playgroups with either close friends or players that operate on the same axis, are the ones having the most issues with the format. People who have regular groups that have been curated, don't have these issues. It is an inevitable situation, really, but I would say that if you are really having issues with players sitting down and playing Combo decks vs your precons... stop letting random people sit down and play with you.
I ran a Commander League for a while, and pulled together a committee of players to help try and ensure that all players could be represented and allowed to play the way that they wanted to play. It was quite a challenge to meet the expectations of everyone, and ultimately it never truly was fair to everyone. People need to understand that concessions need to be made if you are going to try and include everyone, and if you are not willing to concede to a few things, then stop sitting down with random people. The biggest complaint I got, was from players who wanted to bring cheap fun commanders... and their chief complaints were people countering their spells. I don't recall ever hearing about the more serious players taking issue with more casual players.
If anyone is interested in the set up I used for the league you can download a word doc HERE.
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The "combo players should play somewhere else" stance is definitely foolish coming from anyone against counterspells. You can't be both an advocate for interactivity, and of the position that if you cast a spell, you are 100% entitled to its effect/ETB. Imagine the confidence of looking at your hand and never having to worry about when to cast it, because you know that doing anything about it is wrong.
The "combo players should play somewhere else" stance is definitely foolish coming from anyone against counterspells. You can't be both an advocate for interactivity, and of the position that if you cast a spell, you are 100% entitled to its effect/ETB. Imagine the confidence of looking at your hand and never having to worry about when to cast it, because you know that doing anything about it is wrong.
Yeah I always roll my eyes at those folks. Interaction and counterpunching are the best parts of the game! Every strategy is more-or-less viable, and every strategy has counterplay, which is what makes the game exciting. Playing large dudes and turning them sideways with no tricks, blocking, or removal is disturbingly popular and I cannot wrap my mind around it.
Tangentially related: I've got a 9, 8, 7, and 6 deck, and I'm currently working on a 5 which should definitionally be an absolutely average deck. To make it a meme, I pulled up the single most popular general, took the aggregate average decklist, and its... umm... painful. 1 counterspell. 5 instants total. Almost no removal. 3 card advantage spells. More than half of the deck is lands and ramp. The only wincon is incidental beats from ETB creatures. I want to cry.
I think this "combo players need to go play somewhere else" stance is kind of foolish.
Perhaps the biggest issue in Commander these days, is the sitdown and play mentality. People who don't curate their playgroups with either close friends or players that operate on the same axis, are the ones having the most issues with the format. People who have regular groups that have been curated, don't have these issues. It is an inevitable situation, really, but I would say that if you are really having issues with players sitting down and playing Combo decks vs your precons... stop letting random people sit down and play with you.
So your solution is basically just to have the exact same playgroup situation that you do. Very helpful.
Two things:
1) A lot of people aren't playing dedicated combo decks, just decks that happen to have a combo or two in them. While I don't mind a wild janky 4-card combo, especially if I haven't seen it before, when someone sticks DEN and peregrine drake into their blink deck because one is a powerful etb enabler and one is a powerful etb, it's still a pretty boring way for the game to end - and even more frustrating in some ways, because at least the fast combo deck will end a short game in a boring way and you can quickly recalibrate. The accidental combo deck ends a long and interesting game in a boring way.
2) I've had many different groups I play with come and go over the years, and that's not necessarily a cure-all either since even friends are going to have disagreements about how they want the game to go. It can help. But I'm not going to stay in one place my whole life just to avoid new playgroups. I'm still relatively new to this country, and the few friends here I do have don't play magic, so I don't have a ton of alternatives to playing at an LGS, and whoever/whatever shows up, shows up. We can have the power level conversation and that might head off the cEDH combo decks, but the blink deck that happens to have a combo is probably not.
People don't want narrative in games, they just want power.
I agree cEDH ruins everything.
To the surprise of no one one new guy who turned up for a week or two who had the cEDH mindset ended up getting himself banned after arguing with the store manager. Not a related matter but it's reflective of the overall personality.
I know what the c really stands for and it's not something pleasant I can say on the forums.
That just blows my mind, I've had the exact opposite experience. I've yet to have one issue with anyone who plays cEDH, but I've got a thousand lifetimes worth of horror stories about being aggressively mistreated by casual players. In particular the more casual they claim to be, the nastier they seem to get. There's a super-budget EDH variant in this area and they're absolutely the meanest players I've ever met. You ever get yelled at by a guy who played 4 mana doublers on his last turn for countering his full-tap Stroke of Genius, because you're somehow supposed to know that he has no win-condition?
Just chiming in to say this has been my experience too.
The more casual a player claims to be, or their build claims to be, the nastier theyve been.
Ive seen no less than three people throw their decks physically and rage sell their entire collection after a loss. One guy threatened a beating after he used slaughter pact and his only swamp was vindicated. Its okay when they counterspell your cultivate but its rage time if you spell pierce their genesis wave.
My solution is: be willing to compromise. It is either be willing to compromise or deal with having fewer people to play with.
If you are having an unfun experience in Commander, that is on you. It shouldn't be up to other players to cater to you because you don't want to play Combo. Maybe have a bit of accountability for your experiences within the format... seems you are sidestepping that little tidbit.
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My solution is: be willing to compromise. It is either be willing to compromise or deal with having fewer people to play with.
If you are having an unfun experience in Commander, that is on you. It shouldn't be up to other players to cater to you because you don't want to play Combo. Maybe have a bit of accountability for your experiences within the format... seems you are sidestepping that little tidbit.
Prettymuch this. Personally, the power level I enjoy building at is about an 8 or a 9, but the average player runs 4s and 5s (not 7, the obsession with lying and saying 7 people have is infuriating) so I have to build much weaker decks to ensure that the experience isn't lopsided (pubstomping is the opposite of fun).
Taking responsibility for your own fun is a pretty fair ask for everyone involved, and arguments to the contrary are churlish at best.
Just chiming in to say this has been my experience too.
The more casual a player claims to be, or their build claims to be, the nastier theyve been.
Ive seen no less than three people throw their decks physically and rage sell their entire collection after a loss. One guy threatened a beating after he used slaughter pact and his only swamp was vindicated. Its okay when they counterspell your cultivate but its rage time if you spell pierce their genesis wave.
Hahaha, seriously? That's wild. I've never seen anyone do either of those things, not in any commander game, prerelease, or limited tournament I've played in over the years. I definitely get a little salty sometimes (hell, my opponent last night was quite a salt-monster after I beat him) but that's mind-blowing to me. Worst I ever saw, that I can recall, was my opponent stand up and slam his hands on the wall when I (admittedly rather dickishly) got him on a rules technicality during a prerelease. He still won anyway...I probably deserved it.
My solution is: be willing to compromise. It is either be willing to compromise or deal with having fewer people to play with.
If you are having an unfun experience in Commander, that is on you. It shouldn't be up to other players to cater to you because you don't want to play Combo. Maybe have a bit of accountability for your experiences within the format... seems you are sidestepping that little tidbit.
How does one compromise in an LGS environment? If my opponent plays a combo deck, I have essentially no control over that. For that matter, if I wanted to play a nasty deck (which I sometimes do on accident, usually followed by apologies and a deck switch), they wouldn't have any control over that either.
One of the biggest differences in the mentality between standard/modern/legacy/vintage/KBPTL/etc is that commander was built on acknowledging accountability for your opponents' fun. Yes, compromise would be ideal, and that's something that's possible with an established group, but in an LGS environment that's not really an option.
Part of what annoys me is that, for the majority of these players, they don't seem to WANT to play combo. They just put it in to compete with the other decks doing the same. After a game ends in a combo, rarely does anyone actually seem pleased, even the person who did it. The player gleefully assembling a crazy combo I don't begrudge, that can be a fantastic ending to the game, but when the game has gotten less fun for everyone because of the increased power level I think we've made a wrong step somewhere.
Prettymuch this. Personally, the power level I enjoy building at is about an 8 or a 9, but the average player runs 4s and 5s (not 7, the obsession with lying and saying 7 people have is infuriating) so I have to build much weaker decks to ensure that the experience isn't lopsided (pubstomping is the opposite of fun).
Taking responsibility for your own fun is a pretty fair ask for everyone involved, and arguments to the contrary are churlish at best.
If you thought pubstomping WAS fun, though, would that make it OK? You'd still be taking responsibility for your own fun, wouldn't you?
It's really convenient when the things you find fun is also what will make the game fun for your opponents - that's great, genuinely. But what about when the things you find fun AREN'T fun for your opponents? I don't think taking responsibility SOLELY for your own fun is enough, you have to also keep your opponents' experiences in mind.
Not that this seems to apply to my meta though - nobody really seems to enjoy combo, they just do it anyway to stay competitive.
How does one compromise in an LGS environment? If my opponent plays a combo deck, I have essentially no control over that. For that matter, if I wanted to play a nasty deck (which I sometimes do on accident, usually followed by apologies and a deck switch), they wouldn't have any control over that either.
One of the biggest differences in the mentality between standard/modern/legacy/vintage/KBPTL/etc is that commander was built on acknowledging accountability for your opponents' fun. Yes, compromise would be ideal, and that's something that's possible with an established group, but in an LGS environment that's not really an option.
Part of what annoys me is that, for the majority of these players, they don't seem to WANT to play combo. They just put it in to compete with the other decks doing the same. After a game ends in a combo, rarely does anyone actually seem pleased, even the person who did it. The player gleefully assembling a crazy combo I don't begrudge, that can be a fantastic ending to the game, but when the game has gotten less fun for everyone because of the increased power level I think we've made a wrong step somewhere.
You are missing the point. You do not have control over what decks your opponents play. What you DO have control over, is who you play with. Even in a LGS enviroment, you can curate these groups. I live in a town of 17k people and Commander is popular enough that I have been able to identify what intensity players like to play at - and I simply don't play with people who don't fall similarly on the spectrum as I do. If I can do that in my small town, I am more than certain most places can.
As for your comments about other formats, Commander is no different in how people play the game. The only difference is that people who don't have Tier legacy decks, don't play the format. The compromise is that they are unwilling to play that format because it heavily leans towards a highly competitive set of decks. I think the issue is that Commander players feel way too entitled and think that the power scale should be non-existent, and that is an impossible demand.
If your table seems completely unhappy with the game ending in a combo, especially the person initiating the combo, then your group sounds like it really suffers from a lack of basic communication and/or you are too willing to play with people you are unfamiliar with. If you are going to engage in open play, then you need to compromise and accept that people are just going to combo out. If you have an issue accepting that, then don't partake in open play... it is simple.
You really strike me as someone who feels some sort of entitlement, either that or someone who thinks they like Commander but really... doesn't. Maybe you should sleep on that and revaluate, I don't know. Not sure there is anything more I can tell you.
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You are missing the point. You do not have control over what decks your opponents play. What you DO have control over, is who you play with. Even in a LGS enviroment, you can curate these groups. I live in a town of 17k people and Commander is popular enough that I have been able to identify what intensity players like to play at - and I simply don't play with people who don't fall similarly on the spectrum as I do. If I can do that in my small town, I am more than certain most places can.
As for your comments about other formats, Commander is no different in how people play the game. The only difference is that people who don't have Tier legacy decks, don't play the format. The compromise is that they are unwilling to play that format because it heavily leans towards a highly competitive set of decks. I think the issue is that Commander players feel way too entitled and think that the power scale should be non-existent, and that is an impossible demand.
If your table seems completely unhappy with the game ending in a combo, especially the person initiating the combo, then your group sounds like it really suffers from a lack of basic communication and/or you are too willing to play with people you are unfamiliar with. If you are going to engage in open play, then you need to compromise and accept that people are just going to combo out. If you have an issue accepting that, then don't partake in open play... it is simple.
You really strike me as someone who feels some sort of entitlement, either that or someone who thinks they like Commander but really... doesn't. Maybe you should sleep on that and revaluate, I don't know. Not sure there is anything more I can tell you.
It’s an LGS. Pods form as people arrive, and usually don’t reorg unless games happen to end at the same time, at least until people start leaving. I’m usually waiting 30 minutes to an hour for a pod to form. If I’m refusing to play with certain people, not only is that going to be pretty damn awkward to explain, it’s probably going to mean waiting hours for a game, if I can get one at all. Also, I wouldn’t say it’s any players in particular really, but the general culture that’s at fault. By my estimate, a lot of decks have combos in them “to stay competitive“.
As long as we’re playing armchair psychologist, you strike me as someone who’s been in the same small town most of their life and can’t relate to anyone in different circumstances. I’m one of the newest arrivals at this LGS, and most people have been playing there for years and years, often with tight-knit groups that sometimes don’t even consider playing with other people. It can be quite difficult already just finding a game when everyone else has a ton of history together, and I’m frequently the odd man out. I’m in no position to make demands or be selective who I play with.
I’ve read your second paragraph a dozen times and it still makes no sense to me. Legacy players mostly have tiered decks - yes, sure. The compromise is not playing legacy - what? How is that a compromise exactly? Players play commander instead of legacy as a refuge from the repetitive nature of legacy and other constructed formats. Players feel the power scale should be non-existent - not remotely? Nearly everyone tries to put a number on their decks in an effort to keep everyone at the same level of power. Is that not what you mean by power scale? I’m Seriously confused.
Don’t get me wrong - I still enjoy it. A lot. Sitting around waiting for a pod sucks, but actually playing is great 90%+ of the time. And I’ve started to make some friends, even among the more obstinate combo players. And I’m certainly not having problems with my win%. But it’s frustrating to have games end in such a deflating way sometimes, and for players to be seemingly unaware or unwilling to remove those cards even when no one seems to like them, because they think they’re supposed to play them. But I still look forward to commander night(s) every time it comes around, 100%. And while I do ***** and moan about the LGS environment, it has the perk of endless variety. It’s really not that bad, I’m just disappointed that it could be better so easily and isn’t. So you can stop with the nonsense psychoanalysis routine.
I’d hardly call it “my group“, it’s clearly been going on for quite a while and I have Almost no control over It. I do try to change people’s minds when I think it’s appropriate, but it’s a rotating cast of 30+ people, so anything I do is pretty much a drop in the bucket.
I’ll give Sheldon and his group a little credit for promoting the format in its hay days but I seriously doubt they were a huge contributing factor to the popularity of the format.
Either way I think they need to take a look outside their tiny metagame
I dont know who to quote here but there are absolutely times where you vant curate your pods. Where you have no choice in who you play and refusing to means no game.
For instance one shop here gets about 8 players. Thats two pods. If you refuse to play against someone, well youre ***** out of luck that round.
Another place gets about 40 people. They only do 2 or 3 rounds. Again, if you refuse to play against someone... well maybe you can swap but chances are your ass is skipping that round
Point is that for some places edh night is organized and structured. Social contract and communication on power level just does not work in that environment because you cant predict what youre going to be up against, and everyone is playing for different reasons. Discussing it doesnt always do anything because some people only bring one deck, some people have different perceptions of power levels, sometimes youre the 8th man at an 8 person event where the 7 others are friends and go full bore where you cant.
I dont know who to quote here but there are absolutely times where you vant curate your pods. Where you have no choice in who you play and refusing to means no game.
For instance one shop here gets about 8 players. Thats two pods. If you refuse to play against someone, well youre ***** out of luck that round.
Another place gets about 40 people. They only do 2 or 3 rounds. Again, if you refuse to play against someone... well maybe you can swap but chances are your ass is skipping that round
Point is that for some places edh night is organized and structured. Social contract and communication on power level just does not work in that environment because you cant predict what youre going to be up against, and everyone is playing for different reasons. Discussing it doesnt always do anything because some people only bring one deck, some people have different perceptions of power levels, sometimes youre the 8th man at an 8 person event where the 7 others are friends and go full bore where you cant.
Edh experiences vary.
And yet the only person responsible for your fun, is still you...
I am not sure why this is such a hard concept for some of you all to grasp, but you can skip structured commander nights at your LGS and instead call or text friends to schedule time to sit down and play, any other night of the week...
This arguments here for how that is impossible, are absolutely comical.
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LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
It strikes me that all of the people arguing that its difficult to find a pickup game of appropriate power level by talking to people are an extremely good argument for actually having a governing body that is interested in balancing the format
We have such, and the results are an exercise in the practical differences in balancing for competition and balancing for fun. Your banned list would strive to set an equal playing field. Their banned list strives to baby-proof the house where baby Timmies are growing up. Keeping the tide pods on a high shelf won't stop an adult from having a bad day if one so chooses, but it'll stop a kid from thinking its candy. That's how the current banlist works - or my impression of it. They'll never make commander unbreakable, so they don't try. Think of the children.
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I sincerely hope you're just trolling and I'm just not catching the sarcasm.
When I first started playing commander, playing any infinite combos was tryhard behavior. Now, if I polled the players at my LGS I doubt a single one doesn't have a deck with a combo wincon in it somewhere. I've repeatedly heard people say that they need to have a combo somewhere in the deck to make it viable, and it makes me cringe. When I lose a game, a solid 70% of the time it's from a combo. That used to be almost unheard of. And I know it's not just me because everyone else I've talked to online has seen the format shift more competitive as well. Posts about someone's once-casual group shifting closer to cEDH are commonplace.
How much is this the fault of cEDH as compared to the existence of online resources or wotc's power creep? Hard to say, they all contribute. Is the blurring of the line intentional subversion on cEDH's part - are they "out to get [the format]"? Most likely not. But it's still happening, and cEDH players sure aren't in a hurry to prevent it. They want to talk about their format, the same as everyone else does, and this is the unavoidable result. All the time I'll see people ask for help, get answered by a cEDH player with cEDH advice, and they'll gobble it up because they lack the experience to understand the distinction. I see it online, I see it in person. I see the reverence new players have for the local cEDH players' decks, and how they wish they could build decks like them.
Keeping a casual format casual may well be an impossible task, and one day the difference between commander and cEDH may well be almost indistinguishable. They're getting closer together every day. Of course some people will always keep the flame alive, so the two formats will never truly be one, but mainstream commander is constantly in a slide towards more and more competitive - slow, yes, but inexorable. And cEDH will always be happy to receive the benefits of that, whistling a jaunty tune and pretending that it's just a coincidence.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I don't think you can really in good faith make the claim that combo is inherently bad, or that it's wrong to include them in the average deck. Some people enjoy playing combos. Some people just want their decks to be good. It is an unfortunate side-effect of the way the format is meant to be played that aggressive strategies are just not as effective as going infinite. The game has to end at some point, and I know that I've consciously made the decision to include at least one way to immediately end the game in every deck because playing one game that drags on the for the entire night makes me want to kill myself.
And can you really blame people for looking at a cEDH deck and saying 'wow that looks awesome!' when they're such finely tuned works of art? When the cards in them are often obscenely expensive? People like shiny things, and a solid cEDH deck is very, very shiny indeed. Its like gawking at an ancient heirloom katana when you've been playing with boffing sticks. They both have their place and they're both fun, but come on it is only natural.
I wouldn't be too worried about the extinction of casual EDH, from my experience the ends of the format keep getting further and further apart from each other, not closer, as folks naturally separate themselves into distinct cliques based on what they want out of the game.
I find combo a very unsatisfying way to end a game - especially when it's the same boring, well-trod combos that have been winning games for years and years. A game that was interesting and unique ending yet again to high tide palinchron is extremely frustrating imo.
Playing a game of commander is like telling a story. A combo win is the equivalent of "rocks fall, everyone dies".
Great, do it somewhere else.
Great, do it somewhere else.
That's exactly the logic I hear from players at my LGS. And you know what I think to myself? If you don't like long games, GO PLAY ANOTHER FORMAT. When I started playing, 2+ hour games were the norm, sometimes as long as 5 hours or more. And we loved it.
Part of this is the fault of commander becoming too popular. More people means that it's no longer a specialized format exclusively for people who want a long epic game. Personally I think the life total should be lowered to encourage non-combo strategies, but that's another conversation. There's a multitude of factors pushing commander more and more competitive, few of them intentional. But intentional or not, the ones who benefit from it are the cEDH players, so they receive the brunt of my furious rage.
Whoever first thought up [insert combo/deck here] has my respect - although I still don't want to play with them. The million imitators? No, I think it's boring as hell. Plagiarism isn't a work of art. It's a competitive necessity, but art it ain't. And while I understand people netdecking for standard, I find netdecking for commander to be nothing short of pathetic. And I think the only people who would find it "awesome" are those too green to know any better.
I get why new players are impressed by expensive cards, and I know that's part of the allure of playing these decks. I'm not complaining when people are impressed by my collection, it's kinda fun. I don't blame them, it's nobody's fault, really. But that doesn't mean it's not contributing to the degradation of the format.
A cEDH player is exactly the kind of person I'd expect would make a metaphor involving katanas. No offense.
That experience has not been mine, nor most people's from what I can tell.
I don't think it'll ever go extinct by any stretch. But the line will be less and less well-defined. Most people at my LGS are still playing at a relatively low power level and I don't think that'll change - thank god for the reserved list sometimes. But will change, and is changing, is the culture. cEDH is less and less a separate format now than it was a few years ago, or a few years before that. The new players aspire to play at the cEDH table, held back only by budget and skill (skill in cedh, lol that must have been a typo). cEDH decks are more and more likely to join in at non-cEDH tables. Because there aren't "cEDH decks" and "everything else" anymore, it's a slow gradation of power as people strive to push their decks to the lofty plateau of perceived cEDH greatness. Some people self-limit, to be sure, but that percentage is getting lower and lower with every year. And wotc doesn't exactly help when they print obnoxious commanders every set, making it easier and easier to stretch the limits of what power level is acceptable.
For someone called cranky, I am out-cranky-ing the hell out of you right now.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
You ain't kidding bud
I don't think its really the RC's fault and I don't really think there is an easy solution to solve it. The concept of the advisor's committee giving additional feedback is a decent idea but I think it far from solves the problem of needing more exposure to more metas for additional sample size data.
I think as a whole, the RC does a decent job. I personally would prefer a larger banned list but I think given what objectives the RC has set out with they have managed their banned list fairly close to how I would want it given the objective of a smaller banned list.
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[Modern] Allies
I agree cEDH ruins everything.
To the surprise of no one one new guy who turned up for a week or two who had the cEDH mindset ended up getting himself banned after arguing with the store manager. Not a related matter but it's reflective of the overall personality.
I know what the c really stands for and it's not something pleasant I can say on the forums.
That just blows my mind, I've had the exact opposite experience. I've yet to have one issue with anyone who plays cEDH, but I've got a thousand lifetimes worth of horror stories about being aggressively mistreated by casual players. In particular the more casual they claim to be, the nastier they seem to get. There's a super-budget EDH variant in this area and they're absolutely the meanest players I've ever met. You ever get yelled at by a guy who played 4 mana doublers on his last turn for countering his full-tap Stroke of Genius, because you're somehow supposed to know that he has no win-condition?
I think this "combo players need to go play somewhere else" stance is kind of foolish.
Perhaps the biggest issue in Commander these days, is the sitdown and play mentality. People who don't curate their playgroups with either close friends or players that operate on the same axis, are the ones having the most issues with the format. People who have regular groups that have been curated, don't have these issues. It is an inevitable situation, really, but I would say that if you are really having issues with players sitting down and playing Combo decks vs your precons... stop letting random people sit down and play with you.
I ran a Commander League for a while, and pulled together a committee of players to help try and ensure that all players could be represented and allowed to play the way that they wanted to play. It was quite a challenge to meet the expectations of everyone, and ultimately it never truly was fair to everyone. People need to understand that concessions need to be made if you are going to try and include everyone, and if you are not willing to concede to a few things, then stop sitting down with random people. The biggest complaint I got, was from players who wanted to bring cheap fun commanders... and their chief complaints were people countering their spells. I don't recall ever hearing about the more serious players taking issue with more casual players.
If anyone is interested in the set up I used for the league you can download a word doc HERE.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
Yeah I always roll my eyes at those folks. Interaction and counterpunching are the best parts of the game! Every strategy is more-or-less viable, and every strategy has counterplay, which is what makes the game exciting. Playing large dudes and turning them sideways with no tricks, blocking, or removal is disturbingly popular and I cannot wrap my mind around it.
Tangentially related: I've got a 9, 8, 7, and 6 deck, and I'm currently working on a 5 which should definitionally be an absolutely average deck. To make it a meme, I pulled up the single most popular general, took the aggregate average decklist, and its... umm... painful. 1 counterspell. 5 instants total. Almost no removal. 3 card advantage spells. More than half of the deck is lands and ramp. The only wincon is incidental beats from ETB creatures. I want to cry.
So your solution is basically just to have the exact same playgroup situation that you do. Very helpful.
Two things:
1) A lot of people aren't playing dedicated combo decks, just decks that happen to have a combo or two in them. While I don't mind a wild janky 4-card combo, especially if I haven't seen it before, when someone sticks DEN and peregrine drake into their blink deck because one is a powerful etb enabler and one is a powerful etb, it's still a pretty boring way for the game to end - and even more frustrating in some ways, because at least the fast combo deck will end a short game in a boring way and you can quickly recalibrate. The accidental combo deck ends a long and interesting game in a boring way.
2) I've had many different groups I play with come and go over the years, and that's not necessarily a cure-all either since even friends are going to have disagreements about how they want the game to go. It can help. But I'm not going to stay in one place my whole life just to avoid new playgroups. I'm still relatively new to this country, and the few friends here I do have don't play magic, so I don't have a ton of alternatives to playing at an LGS, and whoever/whatever shows up, shows up. We can have the power level conversation and that might head off the cEDH combo decks, but the blink deck that happens to have a combo is probably not.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Just chiming in to say this has been my experience too.
The more casual a player claims to be, or their build claims to be, the nastier theyve been.
Ive seen no less than three people throw their decks physically and rage sell their entire collection after a loss. One guy threatened a beating after he used slaughter pact and his only swamp was vindicated. Its okay when they counterspell your cultivate but its rage time if you spell pierce their genesis wave.
My solution is: be willing to compromise. It is either be willing to compromise or deal with having fewer people to play with.
If you are having an unfun experience in Commander, that is on you. It shouldn't be up to other players to cater to you because you don't want to play Combo. Maybe have a bit of accountability for your experiences within the format... seems you are sidestepping that little tidbit.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
Prettymuch this. Personally, the power level I enjoy building at is about an 8 or a 9, but the average player runs 4s and 5s (not 7, the obsession with lying and saying 7 people have is infuriating) so I have to build much weaker decks to ensure that the experience isn't lopsided (pubstomping is the opposite of fun).
Taking responsibility for your own fun is a pretty fair ask for everyone involved, and arguments to the contrary are churlish at best.
Hahaha, seriously? That's wild. I've never seen anyone do either of those things, not in any commander game, prerelease, or limited tournament I've played in over the years. I definitely get a little salty sometimes (hell, my opponent last night was quite a salt-monster after I beat him) but that's mind-blowing to me. Worst I ever saw, that I can recall, was my opponent stand up and slam his hands on the wall when I (admittedly rather dickishly) got him on a rules technicality during a prerelease. He still won anyway...I probably deserved it.
How does one compromise in an LGS environment? If my opponent plays a combo deck, I have essentially no control over that. For that matter, if I wanted to play a nasty deck (which I sometimes do on accident, usually followed by apologies and a deck switch), they wouldn't have any control over that either.
One of the biggest differences in the mentality between standard/modern/legacy/vintage/KBPTL/etc is that commander was built on acknowledging accountability for your opponents' fun. Yes, compromise would be ideal, and that's something that's possible with an established group, but in an LGS environment that's not really an option.
Part of what annoys me is that, for the majority of these players, they don't seem to WANT to play combo. They just put it in to compete with the other decks doing the same. After a game ends in a combo, rarely does anyone actually seem pleased, even the person who did it. The player gleefully assembling a crazy combo I don't begrudge, that can be a fantastic ending to the game, but when the game has gotten less fun for everyone because of the increased power level I think we've made a wrong step somewhere.
If you thought pubstomping WAS fun, though, would that make it OK? You'd still be taking responsibility for your own fun, wouldn't you?
It's really convenient when the things you find fun is also what will make the game fun for your opponents - that's great, genuinely. But what about when the things you find fun AREN'T fun for your opponents? I don't think taking responsibility SOLELY for your own fun is enough, you have to also keep your opponents' experiences in mind.
Not that this seems to apply to my meta though - nobody really seems to enjoy combo, they just do it anyway to stay competitive.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
You are missing the point. You do not have control over what decks your opponents play. What you DO have control over, is who you play with. Even in a LGS enviroment, you can curate these groups. I live in a town of 17k people and Commander is popular enough that I have been able to identify what intensity players like to play at - and I simply don't play with people who don't fall similarly on the spectrum as I do. If I can do that in my small town, I am more than certain most places can.
As for your comments about other formats, Commander is no different in how people play the game. The only difference is that people who don't have Tier legacy decks, don't play the format. The compromise is that they are unwilling to play that format because it heavily leans towards a highly competitive set of decks. I think the issue is that Commander players feel way too entitled and think that the power scale should be non-existent, and that is an impossible demand.
If your table seems completely unhappy with the game ending in a combo, especially the person initiating the combo, then your group sounds like it really suffers from a lack of basic communication and/or you are too willing to play with people you are unfamiliar with. If you are going to engage in open play, then you need to compromise and accept that people are just going to combo out. If you have an issue accepting that, then don't partake in open play... it is simple.
You really strike me as someone who feels some sort of entitlement, either that or someone who thinks they like Commander but really... doesn't. Maybe you should sleep on that and revaluate, I don't know. Not sure there is anything more I can tell you.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
As long as we’re playing armchair psychologist, you strike me as someone who’s been in the same small town most of their life and can’t relate to anyone in different circumstances. I’m one of the newest arrivals at this LGS, and most people have been playing there for years and years, often with tight-knit groups that sometimes don’t even consider playing with other people. It can be quite difficult already just finding a game when everyone else has a ton of history together, and I’m frequently the odd man out. I’m in no position to make demands or be selective who I play with.
I’ve read your second paragraph a dozen times and it still makes no sense to me. Legacy players mostly have tiered decks - yes, sure. The compromise is not playing legacy - what? How is that a compromise exactly? Players play commander instead of legacy as a refuge from the repetitive nature of legacy and other constructed formats. Players feel the power scale should be non-existent - not remotely? Nearly everyone tries to put a number on their decks in an effort to keep everyone at the same level of power. Is that not what you mean by power scale? I’m Seriously confused.
Don’t get me wrong - I still enjoy it. A lot. Sitting around waiting for a pod sucks, but actually playing is great 90%+ of the time. And I’ve started to make some friends, even among the more obstinate combo players. And I’m certainly not having problems with my win%. But it’s frustrating to have games end in such a deflating way sometimes, and for players to be seemingly unaware or unwilling to remove those cards even when no one seems to like them, because they think they’re supposed to play them. But I still look forward to commander night(s) every time it comes around, 100%. And while I do ***** and moan about the LGS environment, it has the perk of endless variety. It’s really not that bad, I’m just disappointed that it could be better so easily and isn’t. So you can stop with the nonsense psychoanalysis routine.
I’d hardly call it “my group“, it’s clearly been going on for quite a while and I have Almost no control over It. I do try to change people’s minds when I think it’s appropriate, but it’s a rotating cast of 30+ people, so anything I do is pretty much a drop in the bucket.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
Either way I think they need to take a look outside their tiny metagame
For instance one shop here gets about 8 players. Thats two pods. If you refuse to play against someone, well youre ***** out of luck that round.
Another place gets about 40 people. They only do 2 or 3 rounds. Again, if you refuse to play against someone... well maybe you can swap but chances are your ass is skipping that round
Point is that for some places edh night is organized and structured. Social contract and communication on power level just does not work in that environment because you cant predict what youre going to be up against, and everyone is playing for different reasons. Discussing it doesnt always do anything because some people only bring one deck, some people have different perceptions of power levels, sometimes youre the 8th man at an 8 person event where the 7 others are friends and go full bore where you cant.
Edh experiences vary.
And yet the only person responsible for your fun, is still you...
I am not sure why this is such a hard concept for some of you all to grasp, but you can skip structured commander nights at your LGS and instead call or text friends to schedule time to sit down and play, any other night of the week...
This arguments here for how that is impossible, are absolutely comical.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE