How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I know your signature has been around for a while because I remember reading it a couple years ago, but I've never found it more fitting than a thread like this where people insist Commander has evolved past the RC and that they're out of touch. It makes me wonder who is actually narrow-minded.
I know your signature has been around for a while because I remember reading it a couple years ago, but I've never found it more fitting than a thread like this where people insist Commander has evolved past the RC and that they're out of touch. It makes me wonder who is actually narrow-minded.
Someone who wants to push out all the casual or "help them evolve into more competitive" is extremely narrow minded.
People will want to play casual no matter what. People have fun that way and won't move no matter what.
I have become a way better player since i started. I crafted Prossh and Sharuum combo decks. I even tried to craft some modern decks. In the end they were just boring to me and came to casual EDH. Now i'm happy with my dinosaur deck which has no chance against any tier deck yet it's so fun. I still keep my wurm cards in a binder and i collect wurms every new set, hoping to see a dedicated legendary someday. Which won't be competitive at all but will be surely fun.
There are plenty of people like me who want "their format" and are happy that the RC exists, since nothing else looks like a voice for casual players as the RC.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
To say that the RC is why Commander has exploded... is pretty naive.
The reality is that Commander grew from the limitless application of the format and sure, that started before WOTC got involved. But the format really gained traction when people were given the opportunity to find more excitement in the format via things like spoiler seasons offering up new possibilities. This is a direct result of WOTC acknowledging the format and injecting cards that not only help bring modern design up to par with older and much more difficult cards to find, but also inject a ton of new possibility into the format which has greatly allowed for more customization.
Ultimately, the format has seen a natural progression, and you can argue that the RC made if possible for WOTC to pick up the format, but that isn't the same as making the format explode.
I also believe that the RC has reneged a lot of their traditional views on the format and as such, are kind of lost in their own format and how the format works these days.
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To say that the RC is why Commander has exploded... is pretty naive.
The reality is that Commander grew from the limitless application of the format and sure, that started before WOTC got involved. But the format really gained traction when people were given the opportunity to find more excitement in the format via things like spoiler seasons offering up new possibilities. This is a direct result of WOTC acknowledging the format and injecting cards that not only help bring modern design up to par with older and much more difficult cards to find, but also inject a ton of new possibility into the format which has greatly allowed for more customization.
Ultimately, the format has seen a natural progression, and you can argue that the RC made if possible for WOTC to pick up the format, but that isn't the same as making the format explode.
I also believe that the RC has reneged a lot of their traditional views on the format and as such, are kind of lost in their own format and how the format works these days.
I liken it to the arc of GameStop. Someone had a good idea (a videogame store! where you can buy and sell used games!) and then slowly made every effort to drive it into the ground with a dumbfounding lack of management skill, but it was held up for many years as a shining paragon of everything right in the world by people who couldn't see past 'a video game store!' to all the *****ty practices the company engaged in from day one. Eventually the shine came off, and people started questioning whether the folks steering the ship had any idea what they were doing. Turns out, sometimes you get lucky and stumble across success, but if you don't have the wherewithal to manage that success then the gas from that initial luck runs out eventually.
I fully expect that years from now, much like GameStop, we're going to see all of these blindly zealous RC supporters become their most vocal critics. All it takes is one big headliner mistake and they'll jump right past our gentle but fair criticism to frothing rage. And I'll honestly feel bad for the RC when that inevitably happens, because I don't think they're bad people, they're just in way over their heads.
WotC printed product for brawl. If WotC support is the critical element, why hasn't that exploded?
The fact is, commander has become extremely popular while the RC was managing it AND while wotc was supporting it. There's no way to tell "how much popularity" each was responsible for, but going off the brawl example it's pretty clear that there's something about the commander format itself that works for people, and which wotc can't take credit for. Anyone who claims to know whether wotc or the RC is responsible for the popularity is deluding themselves.
It'a also worth noting that commander went from absolutely nothing to being very popular with absolutely zero support. Percentage-wise, guaranteed the RC can claim more based on that alone. By late 2009 most magic players at my uni were playing commander and wotc wasn't directly supporting the format at all.
Personally I think commander is TOO popular at this point. I kinda wish whoever was making is so popular would dial it back a bit.
@Cranky I think you're giving way too much weight to the banlist. If the RC vanished tomorrow and the banlist was gone, I doubt the format would change very much, because it's mostly regulated by social contract anyway.
In order to kill the format and/or make everyone mad, they'd have to make a bunch of really haphazard bans, which isn't likely to happen based on past performance. Until that time, they'll have a few detractors and a few supporters when they ban contentious cards like Iona or PE, and most of the format won't really care.
This isn't standard where a mismanaged banlist is going to destroy the format. Commander is all but unkillable.
The ruleset has been in place since the dawn of the format... That doesn't mean that the RC is responsible for the sudden rapid acceleration of growth within that format. I think you are forgetting what draws players to the format, and subsequently relating it to Brawl.
BRAWL
Rotates
Requires constant investment
Covers a fraction of a player's collection
Suffers from a significant lack of diversity and customization
Commander doesn't suffer from any of that. Which is important to consider, because WOTC has all but abandoned eternal playability from a design standpoint and, arguably, a printing standpoint. So when they instead, acknowledge something like Commander by strategically focusing on reprints and new designs, it is pretty silly to attribute the growing complexity, diversity, and customization that appeals to people - to the RC.
Additionally, the unification of the format under WoTC as Commander (instead of EDH) has birthed a standardized banned list. This induction of it as an official format has greatly extended its reach and taken it from a back room hobby store format to a format that covers a great deal of different player demographics.
Outside of the final notation about a banned list, what has the RC done to reach other players, particularly new ones? Nothing. It is all on the back of WoTC.
The ruleset has been in place since the dawn of the format... That doesn't mean that the RC is responsible for the sudden rapid acceleration of growth within that format. I think you are forgetting what draws players to the format, and subsequently relating it to Brawl.
BRAWL
Rotates
Requires constant investment
Covers a fraction of a player's collection
Suffers from a significant lack of diversity and customization
Commander doesn't suffer from any of that. Which is important to consider, because WOTC has all but abandoned eternal playability from a design standpoint and, arguably, a printing standpoint. So when they instead, acknowledge something like Commander by strategically focusing on reprints and new designs, it is pretty silly to attribute the growing complexity, diversity, and customization that appeals to people - to the RC.
Additionally, the unification of the format under WoTC as Commander (instead of EDH) has birthed a standardized banned list. This induction of it as an official format has greatly extended its reach and taken it from a back room hobby store format to a format that covers a great deal of different player demographics.
Outside of the final notation about a banned list, what has the RC done to reach other players, particularly new ones? Nothing. It is all on the back of WoTC.
In 2009 commander was, to my knowledge, already a major up-and-coming popular new format that took over my playgroup by storm. In mid 2009 none of us had heard of it. By late 2009, we were all playing it. By 2010, we were hardly playing anything else. All of this was before wotc was directly involved. I don't have a graph of "number of commander players over time" but, from my experience, the format did a very good job of promoting itself without any interaction from wotc. Without a parallel universe in which wotc never prints commander products, there's no way to determine how important their role has been. But it's worth remembering that wotc started printing cards for commander because it was already popular, and becoming more popular, and they wanted to promote it and make more money off it. Who knows what would have happened without them, but I think it's very likely that commander would have continued to become more popular without wotcs direct support, because that's what it was already doing.
At the end of the day, unless you're about to reveal that you're actually part of wotcs market research team, neither of us have evidence beyond our personal experiences about (1) how the popularity of commander has increased over time (although maybe this info is available somewhere?), and (2) what is responsible for that popularity (which is essentially unknowable and also not even a reasonable question because, without both parties, commander wouldn't even exist).
Personally, I suspect that the #1 thing that contributed to commander's success is simply that the basic rules are super fun. When we all first started playing the format, it wasn't because we cared about the banlist, and no commander product has really made me think "oh boy, if I wasn't sold on commander already, THIS is the thing that would get me excited!" It was because the core concept, putting a face on a deck and building around a card you thought was cool, was such a neat idea, and a departure from the normal "build 60 card jank until you're good enough to play standard" track that was the dominant way to play before commander existed. The RC and WotC have both presumably contributed to that popularity - and FWIW I don't think the ongoing management of the banlist is terribly important, as I've said - but I think that initial spark of an idea was EVERYTHING. You can say "without wotc, commander would only have half as many players" or whatever, and maybe you'd be right, but without that initial idea NOBODY would be playing commander. And probably a lot fewer people would be playing magic at all.
EDIT: while it's not really relevant, for my money:
Rotates - I'd argue as a positive since it prevents the same cards from dominating in perpetuity and keeps the metagame from becoming stale
Requires constant investment - so does commander, at least the way I play
Covers a fraction of a player's collection - sure, it's nice to have someplace to use older cards, but that doesn't preclude it from existing alongside commander.
Suffers from a significant lack of diversity and customization - There's still a lot of options, we've got 17 commander choices just in ZNR.
In 2009 commander was, to my knowledge, already a major up-and-coming popular new format that took over my playgroup by storm. In mid 2009 none of us had heard of it. By late 2009, we were all playing it. By 2010, we were hardly playing anything else. All of this was before wotc was directly involved. I don't have a graph of "number of commander players over time" but, from my experience, the format did a very good job of promoting itself without any interaction from wotc. Without a parallel universe in which wotc never prints commander products, there's no way to determine how important their role has been. But it's worth remembering that wotc started printing cards for commander because it was already popular, and becoming more popular, and they wanted to promote it and make more money off it. Who knows what would have happened without them, but I think it's very likely that commander would have continued to become more popular without wotcs direct support, because that's what it was already doing.
At the end of the day, unless you're about to reveal that you're actually part of wotcs market research team, neither of us have evidence beyond our personal experiences about (1) how the popularity of commander has increased over time (although maybe this info is available somewhere?), and (2) what is responsible for that popularity (which is essentially unknowable and also not even a reasonable question because, without both parties, commander wouldn't even exist).
Personally, I suspect that the #1 thing that contributed to commander's success is simply that the basic rules are super fun. When we all first started playing the format, it wasn't because we cared about the banlist, and no commander product has really made me think "oh boy, if I wasn't sold on commander already, THIS is the thing that would get me excited!" It was because the core concept, putting a face on a deck and building around a card you thought was cool, was such a neat idea, and a departure from the normal "build 60 card jank until you're good enough to play standard" track that was the dominant way to play before commander existed. The RC and WotC have both presumably contributed to that popularity - and FWIW I don't think the ongoing management of the banlist is terribly important, as I've said - but I think that initial spark of an idea was EVERYTHING. You can say "without wotc, commander would only have half as many players" or whatever, and maybe you'd be right, but without that initial idea NOBODY would be playing commander. And probably a lot fewer people would be playing magic at all.
EDIT: while it's not really relevant, for my money:
Rotates - I'd argue as a positive since it prevents the same cards from dominating in perpetuity and keeps the metagame from becoming stale
Requires constant investment - so does commander, at least the way I play
Covers a fraction of a player's collection - sure, it's nice to have someplace to use older cards, but that doesn't preclude it from existing alongside commander.
Suffers from a significant lack of diversity and customization - There's still a lot of options, we've got 17 commander choices just in ZNR.
So here is my question, with functionally the same ruleset as Commander, albeit some slight variations, why did Tiny Leaders not follow the same exact trend?
The Commander boom didn't start in 2009, I wouldn't even say it started in 2013... So between 2013 and now, what has the RC done to expand the format and allow it to reach the potential it has reached now?
RC saving WOTC from killing the format with insane design ideas, isn't the same as growing the format. 2009 was organic growth. The same organic growth Tiny leaders received. The only difference was WOTC was able to step in and stop Commander from stagnating, by injecting new cards, themes, and a sense of unity, into the format. You still don't have an answer to my question of "What has the RC done to growth te game and bring in new players?", and the reason is simple: that isn't what they do and it isn't what they are responsible for.
What you are providing, are not counterpoints - they are justifications.
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So here is my question, with functionally the same ruleset as Commander, albeit some slight variations, why did Tiny Leaders not follow the same exact trend?
1) as I said, popularity is everything and tiny leaders never got that popular, at least where I was playing.
2) it didn't do anything novel that commander didn't already do - the core commander concept scratched an itch people didn't know they had, TL just tried to ape that same success (much the same as brawl did, although at least brawl brought some better ideas to the table imo).
The Commander boom didn't start in 2009, I wouldn't even say it started in 2013... So between 2013 and now, what has the RC done to expand the format and allow it to reach the potential it has reached now?
Can you please show me what your evidence for this timetable is?
I do find it kind of silly that, whatever growth the format experienced between 2013 and now was a "boom"...whereas growing from basically nothing to nationwide popularity over the course of a couple years wasn't a "boom" for some reason.
RC saving WOTC from killing the format with insane design ideas, isn't the same as growing the format. 2009 was organic growth. The same organic growth Tiny leaders received. The only difference was WOTC was able to step in and stop Commander from stagnating, by injecting new cards, themes, and a sense of unity, into the format. You still don't have an answer to my question of "What has the RC done to growth te game and bring in new players?", and the reason is simple: that isn't what they do and it isn't what they are responsible for.
What you are providing, are not counterpoints - they are justifications.
Oh, I don't think the RC has done anything super important for the format in the past 10 years tbh. I think having no banlist at all, the format still would have grown just fine. I also think it would have grown just fine without wotc support. I put the vast majority of the credit to the core idea by Adam Staley, and the initial spark that got it going from Sheldon and the other early RC members.
Unlike TL, commander didn't have competition. Nobody said "why would I play commander when I could just play X"...which is exactly what people say when something like TL comes along, where X = commander. And since commander was the first to market, it's got the popularity and momentum on its side against any newcomers like TL or OB or brawl of whatever other thing people come up with. Until someone has a truly novel great idea, like commander was to begin with, I doubt it'll be unseated as the king of casual - no matter what wotc or the RC do to help or hinder it.
New sets inject new material for commander, just the same as they did in 2009. If wotc closed their doors, maybe the format would stagnate - if that's even a thing commander can do - but with or without official commander products the format is consistently fresh, primarily because it's a casual format that doesn't revolve around solving a metagame, which keeps the pool of decks all-but-limitless. Sure, commander needs wotc - without wotc mtg wouldn't exist after all - but their ongoing support isn't crucial imo.
I'm not sure what that last sentence is in reference to.
I guess you are right, it couldn’t possibly be an exponentially larger demand now than in 2009, or 2013...
WoTC going from 0 commander products a year to 4+ is merely a coincidence...
There are more 5G towers than last year, and we didn't have any coronavirus last year ... 5G towers cause coronavirus!
Correlation is not causation.
I don't know how popular commander would be without direct wotc support, and neither do you. Until you can produce some sort of evidence to back up your point - perhaps a graph showing the number of commander players jumping up with commander product releases? - you've got nothing but an opinion.
But really, this argument is stupid and I'm not sure what the point is. The original topic of the thread is that the RC is out of touch - presumably with the implication that their handling of the banlist is detrimental to the format. I don't know about that - there are certainly some cards I'd like banned, and a couple I'd like unbanned (c'mon, gifts). There's room for improvement, sure, but you can't please everyone.
But even if Sheldon was divine will made manifest, and he could craft a perfect banlist and ruleset that pleased every commander player present and future, it'd still be stupid to compare the RC to wotc. Wotc is responsible for making every card in the format. Every fun deck you love was built with 100% wotc produced cards. How the hell is managing a banlist going to compete with that? The RC is responsible for the early growth of commander by getting the word out, but at this point their impact - for good or ill - is pretty minor, unless they went absolutely nuts and started banning hundreds of cards, or drastically changed the rules. Whatever reach they could possibly have is dwarfed by the large corporation of WotC, and there's just nothing sexy about a banlist compared to making whole new cards to get people hyped up - especially in a format where the banlist isn't particularly important.
We could could argue about whether early growth or sustained popularity is harder to cultivate, but really it's all moot because the original topic was "does the RCs approach hurt the format", and that conversation has nothing to do with that topic - and honestly I'm not sure what the point of that conversation would even be. I do think the RC's approach probably encourages more casual players to join, and pushes away more competitive ones - and personally I am 100% on board for that, even if I might quibble over the details.
I... don’t think you are very good at pattern recognition nor understanding market trends. So I am just gonna see my way out of this conversation, as it doesn’t seem to be all that stimulating. Sorry.
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What is your argument at this point? WotC has had more to do with the growth of commander since 2013 than the RC? Yeah, probably. Because they have totally different jobs with very different impacts on the format.
What does that have to do with the topic of this thread exactly?
I... don’t think you are very good at pattern recognition nor understanding market trends. So I am just gonna see my way out of this conversation, as it doesn’t seem to be all that stimulating. Sorry.
You don't seem very good at recognizing patterns either. Tiny leaders/oathbreaker/whatever failed. Brawl isn't very popular. It's pretty clear that wotc and RC are working in synergy to make the format shine. After 10+ years of RC alone.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
One of the reasons Commander is successful, is because an influential force pushes back against the natural trend towards cEDH, and that force is the RC. Commander is unique because competition naturally breeds improvement, which trends towards a singular endpoint, and the RC have accumulated the gravitas to tell people willing to listen, "not here". I don't know that cEDH wouldn't be the norm if not for a relentless PR effort to the contrary. Casuals are a large voice in MtG, but they're a quiet voice. I feel like the RC is their megaphone. By "staying in 2010", the RC prevents the so called Overton Window from constantly redefining what casual is, as what competitive is consistently pushes ever forward.
One of the reasons Commander is successful, is because an influential force pushes back against the natural trend towards cEDH, and that force is the RC. Commander is unique because competition naturally breeds improvement, which trends towards a singular endpoint, and the RC have accumulated the gravitas to tell people willing to listen, "not here". I don't know that cEDH wouldn't be the norm if not for a relentless PR effort to the contrary. Casuals are a large voice in MtG, but they're a quiet voice. I feel like the RC is their megaphone. By "staying in 2010", the RC prevents the so called Overton Window from constantly redefining what casual is, as what competitive is consistently pushes ever forward.
My experience has been exactly the opposite, actually.
Casual players are the largest, loudest voice in MtG, and generally have no trouble making sure that their voice is heard, especially whilst demonizing competitive players. What I've found is that the RC's relentless, dismissive rhetoric in regards to the natural progression of competition in this inherently competitive game has encouraged the average player (through modeling) to see anyone who doesn't play the same way as morally bankrupt, and to treat them accordingly.
Anecdotally, all of the worst experiences I've ever had playing the game have been the result of self-professed casual players being viciously prejudiced against anything 'other.' One time I walked into one of my two main LGSs, after not showing up for a while, with my favorite new Vial Smasher/Kraum deck looking to cast Logic Knot for 50 and spin the wheel of fate. Nothing too strong, but not the casual 5/10. I sat down at a table of strangers, rolled out my deck, and during the process of introductions one of them started calling me an ******** and rifled around in his bag for a mono-blue deck that he said he only pulls out to focus down pricks with competitive decks, and slammed it on the table. He proceeded to stare at me across the table and windmill slam a counter or removal spell for everything I did, making everyone uncomfortable all game, frothing about 'the spirit of the format.' When he of course lost as a result of poor play and threat assessment, he stormed away from the table and started telling players in other parts of the store very loudly to watch out for me.
This is an extreme example, but it is recurring behavior I've witnessed in the community, something I've never seen from cEDH players who have been nothing but chill and welcoming even when I bring suboptimal decks to the table. Casual players by no means whatsoever are any sort of oppressed or silent majority. The largest group with the loudest voice and the most privilege has no claim to needing any sort of advocacy from the RC. Meanwhile the poor neglected cEDH crowd literally had to beg the RC to fix their own mistake and ban Flash after unleashing Protean Hulk into the meta for no discernible reason.
[quote from="BaronCappuccino »" url="/forums/the-game/commander-edh/818857-rules-committee-narrow-minded?comment=42"]Meanwhile the poor neglected cEDH crowd literally had to beg the RC to fix their own mistake and ban Flash after unleashing Protean Hulk into the meta for no discernible reason.
No more neglected than the poor casual Legacy or Modern player as WotC won't do anything about netdecking and forcing creativity at their events (absurd, of course and I'm not vouching for this because it's dumb). The player in your post was of course, entirely out of line, but we know, as evidenced by all the other formats, what happens when casual isn't heavily defended. Poor neglected cEDH swore that banning Flash would solve their problems with homogeneity, but rumor has it, now they're grumbling about partners. Homogeneity is as much an inevitability as the sun going red giant and swallowing everything through Mars. There's almost no room for compromise. The middle ground of 2010 between a casual deck and a tryhard deck and the middle ground of today are so far apart that you could likely fit the entire spectrum of 2010 in between the middle ground and each extreme. Without drawing a line in the sand, the results are inevitable.
I definitely agree that in an inherently competitive game like Magic that it is inevitable that optimal strategy will approach perfect uniformity given enough time and lack of change. Fortunately WotC keeps injecting new cards at a breakneck pace so we don't have to worry about it becoming entirely stagnant.
I'll push back a little on the partner thing, since it is really just Thrasios who is a problem. You can pair him with a ham sandwich and your deck will probably be pretty good as long as you have counterspells, ramp, and an infinite mana package. Beyond that, the rest of the mechanic is fair to middling. Given that the RC has said repeatedly that they don't care about balancing the format, I think it was necessary to downplay public enemy No.2 when entreating them to fix public enemy No.1 because they have very clearly stated that they think banning for cEDH is a slippery slope.
Solving for that unfortunate misconception, I've come to the conclusion that there's no reason to even HAVE one for casual play, and the only cards that need to be banned are the ones breaking the top end of the format. Casual players are happy to play with house rules, or soft-ban cards that aren't fun, or just exert social pressure on people playing things they don't like, which solves for 99% of problems you'd likely see from a completely open format. Meanwhile competitive players are always looking to bring the biggest guns to pummel their buddies with, so taking the broken toys away is important. Looking at it from that perspective, I think the perfect banlist would probably be ~a dozen cards max. It should be entirely possible to provide for both casual and competitive players with an extremely light touch. For the most part cards that are broken aren't even fun in casual.
Literally just unban everything, ban the small selection of cards ruining high-end games, and everyone wins including the RC, since both camps stop complaining and the criteria for banning becomes crystal clear, making their job easier at the end of the day.
As for your last point, it is crazy to think about how far we've come isn't it? I remember how insurmountably broken Azami and Rofellos were considered back in the day, and while the average deck hasn't really gotten much better (I'd argue that it has in fact gotten worse), the top end of the format has absolutely left those old bogeymen in the dust.
Every logical bone in my body agrees with your premise that casual Commander should be just fine with a social contract and house rules, and that the banned list need only pluck a handful of utterly format-breaking cards. That said, sometimes life isn't logical, and I think things are better the way they are now than they would be if I were running the show and deregulated the format into a wild west 100 card vintage with additional deck construction rules, with the caveat that players would have my permission to agree with their friends on other changes if they're playing Commander in their homes.
Every logical bone in my body agrees with your premise that casual Commander should be just fine with a social contract and house rules, and that the banned list need only pluck a handful of utterly format-breaking cards. That said, sometimes life isn't logical, and I think things are better the way they are now than they would be if I were running the show and deregulated the format into a wild west 100 card vintage with additional deck construction rules, with the caveat that players would have my permission to agree with their friends on other changes if they're playing Commander in their homes.
Hey, that's a better response than the spitting venom and ad hominem attacks I usually get for that suggestion, so I'll take it lol. Thanks for being reasonable on the internet, you're rare and appreciated.
Solving for that unfortunate misconception, I've come to the conclusion that there's no reason to even HAVE one for casual play, and the only cards that need to be banned are the ones breaking the top end of the format. Casual players are happy to play with house rules, or soft-ban cards that aren't fun, or just exert social pressure on people playing things they don't like, which solves for 99% of problems you'd likely see from a completely open format. Meanwhile competitive players are always looking to bring the biggest guns to pummel their buddies with, so taking the broken toys away is important. Looking at it from that perspective, I think the perfect banlist would probably be ~a dozen cards max. It should be entirely possible to provide for both casual and competitive players with an extremely light touch. For the most part cards that are broken aren't even fun in casual.
Literally just unban everything, ban the small selection of cards ruining high-end games, and everyone wins including the RC, since both camps stop complaining and the criteria for banning becomes crystal clear, making their job easier at the end of the day.
I'm going to push back on that one hard. As someone who plays at LGSs with whoever happens to show up, social pressure is not a terribly effective tool, nor are house rules or any of that other stuff. Sometimes people are amenable to trying to balance the table so everyone has a similar-power deck, and sometimes people aren't. When the alternative is sitting on the sidelines for another hour waiting for a spot to open up, I'm going to have to deal with whatever they happen to be playing and hope it's not too obnoxious.
And on the flip side, I've played a very fun casual Thrasios deck and I'd be profoundly annoyed if he was banned just to suit the cEDH crowd. Because in an LGS environment, people are going to follow the letter of the law, so if he's banned, he's banned.
Basically what you're saying is "instead of trying to have a banlist for the casual format which is the vast majority of the target of commander, let's completely disregard that and instead have a banlist whose only goal is to appeal to the small percentage of cEDH players."
I'll say what I always say in these circumstances - if cEDH dislikes the banlist so much, then they should just make their own.
Here's the thing: stripping the banlist and then rebuilding it for the top end of the format would have little to no effect on casual games, since in reality the list would become much smaller and only really contain cards that casual players weren't playing much anyways. For every player who would hate to see a pet card go, there would be a player who is ecstatic to get a chance to play with a pet card currently on the banlist. I'm not even 100% convinced that Thrasios would be on that list, but if a card is broken it is broken, regardless of how fairly you play it.
There's definitely no valid reason to otherize players who just want to see the banlist make sense. Casual EDH players, competitive EDH players, and everyone in between, we're all just EDH players.
I agree that Rule Zero is stupid though and shouldn't be a hand-waving cure-all for problems with the format, but it is what it is.
Here's the thing: stripping the banlist and then rebuilding it for the top end of the format would have little to no effect on casual games
What are you basing that on exactly? Paradox engine was getting played a LOT before it got banned, and it was obnoxious as hell. I see no reason to assume it wouldn't become popular against if it got unbanned. Simply being an annoying card is not sufficient to keep people from playing certain cards. Some cards probably wouldn't see much play in normal commander because the social contract might prevent people from playing, for example, limited resources (the same reason winter orb isn't banned). Some other stuff might be fine (I wouldn't mind gifts coming off). But there are still lots of cards that would be unfun to play against that people wouldn't self-regulate. I know I'd be pretty unhappy if the game ended out of nowhere to a biorhythm, but it's not a card that I think people would avoid using, were it not on the banlist. That is, surprise surprise, why it's on there.
If a card like demonic consultation got added to the banlist, which has very little application in regular EDH but is nasty in cEDH, I wouldn't mind that much - depending on the specific card. But stripping everything off the banlist? No. Adding cards that are fun in normal commander, like Thrasios? No.
if a card is broken it is broken, regardless of how fairly you play it.
I disagree very strongly with this logic. Tazri was, for a time, among the strongest - if not the strongest - cEDH deck because she provided a reliable wincon for food chain combo with as few cards as possible. Does that mean Tazri was broken? Should we take away tribal ally decks from commander players for playing a "broken" commander?
Thrasios's ability is really not that strong in a vacuum. 4 mana is a lot for that effect. He's an outlet for infinite mana that lets you play a lot of colors, and sometimes he generates incremental advantage, but to my understanding the most important part of him for cEDH purposes is that he provides an outlet for infinite mana and a lot of colors. In normal commander, that's not really a problem, and besides, infinite mana also wins with completely innocuous cards that no one would call broken.
Nothing is broken in a vacuum. It depends on the cards around it. Thrasios in a cEDH deck with infinite mana combos might be broken, but in a normal deck where he's just a decent draw engine, he's not even close.
There's definitely no valid reason to otherize players who just want to see the banlist make sense. Casual EDH players, competitive EDH players, and everyone in between, we're all just EDH players.
And we're all just magic players, and we're all just people, and we're all just vertebrates, and we're all just animals, and we're all just carbon-based objects. We've got plenty of things in common, yes, but we've also got some pretty important differences that have a pretty profound impact on how we'd like to shape the format.
I don't have any problem with people playing cEDH in their own isolated bubble - that doesn't bother me at all. But that's not how the world works. cEDH players talk online with other commander players, they play at their LGSs. cEDH players want their format to grow, the same as any player, but the spaces they take up are often the same ones other commander players use. When a new commander player goes online to see how to improve their deck, the information they get - through EDHrec, through forums, through posted decklists - will often include cEDH.
Let's say a new player, excited about the Otrimi deck they picked up and looking to improve it after losing at their LGS, goes online for advice. And they happen to see a Cazur + Ukkima cEDH decklist that looks very strong. They might not have the experience to understand the difference between commander and cEDH. They might even get excited at the strategy of the deck, and want to show it off to their friends. Most other games and formats don't have this self-regulating aspect that commander does. Someone fresh off hearthstone - where sure, there are better and worse decks, and there are dumb meme decks, but everything has to withstand the power of the standard meta, there is no true "casual" - may not understand where the line is between improving a deck and what's pushing it too far.
So when they get this cEDH information, they consume it uncritically, and push their deck to the limit. And then they show up to their LGS and play this deck. And some people, the veterans, might say "hey, that's a bit too cEDH, can you play something else?" But the other newer players, in the same boat as the Cazur player without a good grasp of the separation between cEDH and commander, might think "wow, that deck was really strong, I should look up ways to make my deck stronger to compete". It doesn't always happen that way, of course. But it rarely goes back the other direction, from more competitive to less competitive. cEDH is entropy, slowly decaying what it touches.
This is why I dislike cEDH more than standard or modern or legacy or vintage or any other format. Because those other formats stay in their own lane. If someone wants to play standard, then I might not join them, but they're not affecting the culture around my format. cEDH - online and in person - has done permanent harm by insinuating their format with commander, and I suspect a lot of that is intentional to draw more players in. And while there are no doubt plenty of noble cEDH players who try avoid blurring the line between cEDH and commander, there are many more who are happy to spread their format around at the expense of commander. I see the entire format of cEDH as an existential threat to the future of commander and I wish it could be scrubbed off the face of the earth.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
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Someone who wants to push out all the casual or "help them evolve into more competitive" is extremely narrow minded.
People will want to play casual no matter what. People have fun that way and won't move no matter what.
I have become a way better player since i started. I crafted Prossh and Sharuum combo decks. I even tried to craft some modern decks. In the end they were just boring to me and came to casual EDH. Now i'm happy with my dinosaur deck which has no chance against any tier deck yet it's so fun. I still keep my wurm cards in a binder and i collect wurms every new set, hoping to see a dedicated legendary someday. Which won't be competitive at all but will be surely fun.
There are plenty of people like me who want "their format" and are happy that the RC exists, since nothing else looks like a voice for casual players as the RC.
The reality is that Commander grew from the limitless application of the format and sure, that started before WOTC got involved. But the format really gained traction when people were given the opportunity to find more excitement in the format via things like spoiler seasons offering up new possibilities. This is a direct result of WOTC acknowledging the format and injecting cards that not only help bring modern design up to par with older and much more difficult cards to find, but also inject a ton of new possibility into the format which has greatly allowed for more customization.
Ultimately, the format has seen a natural progression, and you can argue that the RC made if possible for WOTC to pick up the format, but that isn't the same as making the format explode.
I also believe that the RC has reneged a lot of their traditional views on the format and as such, are kind of lost in their own format and how the format works these days.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
I liken it to the arc of GameStop. Someone had a good idea (a videogame store! where you can buy and sell used games!) and then slowly made every effort to drive it into the ground with a dumbfounding lack of management skill, but it was held up for many years as a shining paragon of everything right in the world by people who couldn't see past 'a video game store!' to all the *****ty practices the company engaged in from day one. Eventually the shine came off, and people started questioning whether the folks steering the ship had any idea what they were doing. Turns out, sometimes you get lucky and stumble across success, but if you don't have the wherewithal to manage that success then the gas from that initial luck runs out eventually.
I fully expect that years from now, much like GameStop, we're going to see all of these blindly zealous RC supporters become their most vocal critics. All it takes is one big headliner mistake and they'll jump right past our gentle but fair criticism to frothing rage. And I'll honestly feel bad for the RC when that inevitably happens, because I don't think they're bad people, they're just in way over their heads.
The fact is, commander has become extremely popular while the RC was managing it AND while wotc was supporting it. There's no way to tell "how much popularity" each was responsible for, but going off the brawl example it's pretty clear that there's something about the commander format itself that works for people, and which wotc can't take credit for. Anyone who claims to know whether wotc or the RC is responsible for the popularity is deluding themselves.
It'a also worth noting that commander went from absolutely nothing to being very popular with absolutely zero support. Percentage-wise, guaranteed the RC can claim more based on that alone. By late 2009 most magic players at my uni were playing commander and wotc wasn't directly supporting the format at all.
Personally I think commander is TOO popular at this point. I kinda wish whoever was making is so popular would dial it back a bit.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Because complexity is attractive and Brawl is insanely limited in every meteric - when compared to Commander...
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
In order to kill the format and/or make everyone mad, they'd have to make a bunch of really haphazard bans, which isn't likely to happen based on past performance. Until that time, they'll have a few detractors and a few supporters when they ban contentious cards like Iona or PE, and most of the format won't really care.
This isn't standard where a mismanaged banlist is going to destroy the format. Commander is all but unkillable.
And is wotc responsible for the ruleset of commander, the thing that has apparently made it so popular?
(btw I actually like brawl quite a bit, but popularity is sort of everything. I'm not going to play a format if I can't find games)
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
BRAWL
Additionally, the unification of the format under WoTC as Commander (instead of EDH) has birthed a standardized banned list. This induction of it as an official format has greatly extended its reach and taken it from a back room hobby store format to a format that covers a great deal of different player demographics.
Outside of the final notation about a banned list, what has the RC done to reach other players, particularly new ones? Nothing. It is all on the back of WoTC.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
In 2009 commander was, to my knowledge, already a major up-and-coming popular new format that took over my playgroup by storm. In mid 2009 none of us had heard of it. By late 2009, we were all playing it. By 2010, we were hardly playing anything else. All of this was before wotc was directly involved. I don't have a graph of "number of commander players over time" but, from my experience, the format did a very good job of promoting itself without any interaction from wotc. Without a parallel universe in which wotc never prints commander products, there's no way to determine how important their role has been. But it's worth remembering that wotc started printing cards for commander because it was already popular, and becoming more popular, and they wanted to promote it and make more money off it. Who knows what would have happened without them, but I think it's very likely that commander would have continued to become more popular without wotcs direct support, because that's what it was already doing.
At the end of the day, unless you're about to reveal that you're actually part of wotcs market research team, neither of us have evidence beyond our personal experiences about (1) how the popularity of commander has increased over time (although maybe this info is available somewhere?), and (2) what is responsible for that popularity (which is essentially unknowable and also not even a reasonable question because, without both parties, commander wouldn't even exist).
Personally, I suspect that the #1 thing that contributed to commander's success is simply that the basic rules are super fun. When we all first started playing the format, it wasn't because we cared about the banlist, and no commander product has really made me think "oh boy, if I wasn't sold on commander already, THIS is the thing that would get me excited!" It was because the core concept, putting a face on a deck and building around a card you thought was cool, was such a neat idea, and a departure from the normal "build 60 card jank until you're good enough to play standard" track that was the dominant way to play before commander existed. The RC and WotC have both presumably contributed to that popularity - and FWIW I don't think the ongoing management of the banlist is terribly important, as I've said - but I think that initial spark of an idea was EVERYTHING. You can say "without wotc, commander would only have half as many players" or whatever, and maybe you'd be right, but without that initial idea NOBODY would be playing commander. And probably a lot fewer people would be playing magic at all.
EDIT: while it's not really relevant, for my money:
Rotates - I'd argue as a positive since it prevents the same cards from dominating in perpetuity and keeps the metagame from becoming stale
Requires constant investment - so does commander, at least the way I play
Covers a fraction of a player's collection - sure, it's nice to have someplace to use older cards, but that doesn't preclude it from existing alongside commander.
Suffers from a significant lack of diversity and customization - There's still a lot of options, we've got 17 commander choices just in ZNR.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
So here is my question, with functionally the same ruleset as Commander, albeit some slight variations, why did Tiny Leaders not follow the same exact trend?
The Commander boom didn't start in 2009, I wouldn't even say it started in 2013... So between 2013 and now, what has the RC done to expand the format and allow it to reach the potential it has reached now?
RC saving WOTC from killing the format with insane design ideas, isn't the same as growing the format. 2009 was organic growth. The same organic growth Tiny leaders received. The only difference was WOTC was able to step in and stop Commander from stagnating, by injecting new cards, themes, and a sense of unity, into the format. You still don't have an answer to my question of "What has the RC done to growth te game and bring in new players?", and the reason is simple: that isn't what they do and it isn't what they are responsible for.
What you are providing, are not counterpoints - they are justifications.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
1) as I said, popularity is everything and tiny leaders never got that popular, at least where I was playing.
2) it didn't do anything novel that commander didn't already do - the core commander concept scratched an itch people didn't know they had, TL just tried to ape that same success (much the same as brawl did, although at least brawl brought some better ideas to the table imo).
Can you please show me what your evidence for this timetable is?
I do find it kind of silly that, whatever growth the format experienced between 2013 and now was a "boom"...whereas growing from basically nothing to nationwide popularity over the course of a couple years wasn't a "boom" for some reason.
Oh, I don't think the RC has done anything super important for the format in the past 10 years tbh. I think having no banlist at all, the format still would have grown just fine. I also think it would have grown just fine without wotc support. I put the vast majority of the credit to the core idea by Adam Staley, and the initial spark that got it going from Sheldon and the other early RC members.
Unlike TL, commander didn't have competition. Nobody said "why would I play commander when I could just play X"...which is exactly what people say when something like TL comes along, where X = commander. And since commander was the first to market, it's got the popularity and momentum on its side against any newcomers like TL or OB or brawl of whatever other thing people come up with. Until someone has a truly novel great idea, like commander was to begin with, I doubt it'll be unseated as the king of casual - no matter what wotc or the RC do to help or hinder it.
New sets inject new material for commander, just the same as they did in 2009. If wotc closed their doors, maybe the format would stagnate - if that's even a thing commander can do - but with or without official commander products the format is consistently fresh, primarily because it's a casual format that doesn't revolve around solving a metagame, which keeps the pool of decks all-but-limitless. Sure, commander needs wotc - without wotc mtg wouldn't exist after all - but their ongoing support isn't crucial imo.
I'm not sure what that last sentence is in reference to.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
WoTC going from 0 commander products a year to 4+ is merely a coincidence...
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
There are more 5G towers than last year, and we didn't have any coronavirus last year ... 5G towers cause coronavirus!
Correlation is not causation.
I don't know how popular commander would be without direct wotc support, and neither do you. Until you can produce some sort of evidence to back up your point - perhaps a graph showing the number of commander players jumping up with commander product releases? - you've got nothing but an opinion.
But really, this argument is stupid and I'm not sure what the point is. The original topic of the thread is that the RC is out of touch - presumably with the implication that their handling of the banlist is detrimental to the format. I don't know about that - there are certainly some cards I'd like banned, and a couple I'd like unbanned (c'mon, gifts). There's room for improvement, sure, but you can't please everyone.
But even if Sheldon was divine will made manifest, and he could craft a perfect banlist and ruleset that pleased every commander player present and future, it'd still be stupid to compare the RC to wotc. Wotc is responsible for making every card in the format. Every fun deck you love was built with 100% wotc produced cards. How the hell is managing a banlist going to compete with that? The RC is responsible for the early growth of commander by getting the word out, but at this point their impact - for good or ill - is pretty minor, unless they went absolutely nuts and started banning hundreds of cards, or drastically changed the rules. Whatever reach they could possibly have is dwarfed by the large corporation of WotC, and there's just nothing sexy about a banlist compared to making whole new cards to get people hyped up - especially in a format where the banlist isn't particularly important.
We could could argue about whether early growth or sustained popularity is harder to cultivate, but really it's all moot because the original topic was "does the RCs approach hurt the format", and that conversation has nothing to do with that topic - and honestly I'm not sure what the point of that conversation would even be. I do think the RC's approach probably encourages more casual players to join, and pushes away more competitive ones - and personally I am 100% on board for that, even if I might quibble over the details.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
What does that have to do with the topic of this thread exactly?
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Lol, it's wotc who decided to make brawl rotate and the RC who did not for commander.
You don't seem very good at recognizing patterns either. Tiny leaders/oathbreaker/whatever failed. Brawl isn't very popular. It's pretty clear that wotc and RC are working in synergy to make the format shine. After 10+ years of RC alone.
My experience has been exactly the opposite, actually.
Casual players are the largest, loudest voice in MtG, and generally have no trouble making sure that their voice is heard, especially whilst demonizing competitive players. What I've found is that the RC's relentless, dismissive rhetoric in regards to the natural progression of competition in this inherently competitive game has encouraged the average player (through modeling) to see anyone who doesn't play the same way as morally bankrupt, and to treat them accordingly.
Anecdotally, all of the worst experiences I've ever had playing the game have been the result of self-professed casual players being viciously prejudiced against anything 'other.' One time I walked into one of my two main LGSs, after not showing up for a while, with my favorite new Vial Smasher/Kraum deck looking to cast Logic Knot for 50 and spin the wheel of fate. Nothing too strong, but not the casual 5/10. I sat down at a table of strangers, rolled out my deck, and during the process of introductions one of them started calling me an ******** and rifled around in his bag for a mono-blue deck that he said he only pulls out to focus down pricks with competitive decks, and slammed it on the table. He proceeded to stare at me across the table and windmill slam a counter or removal spell for everything I did, making everyone uncomfortable all game, frothing about 'the spirit of the format.' When he of course lost as a result of poor play and threat assessment, he stormed away from the table and started telling players in other parts of the store very loudly to watch out for me.
This is an extreme example, but it is recurring behavior I've witnessed in the community, something I've never seen from cEDH players who have been nothing but chill and welcoming even when I bring suboptimal decks to the table. Casual players by no means whatsoever are any sort of oppressed or silent majority. The largest group with the loudest voice and the most privilege has no claim to needing any sort of advocacy from the RC. Meanwhile the poor neglected cEDH crowd literally had to beg the RC to fix their own mistake and ban Flash after unleashing Protean Hulk into the meta for no discernible reason.
No more neglected than the poor casual Legacy or Modern player as WotC won't do anything about netdecking and forcing creativity at their events (absurd, of course and I'm not vouching for this because it's dumb). The player in your post was of course, entirely out of line, but we know, as evidenced by all the other formats, what happens when casual isn't heavily defended. Poor neglected cEDH swore that banning Flash would solve their problems with homogeneity, but rumor has it, now they're grumbling about partners. Homogeneity is as much an inevitability as the sun going red giant and swallowing everything through Mars. There's almost no room for compromise. The middle ground of 2010 between a casual deck and a tryhard deck and the middle ground of today are so far apart that you could likely fit the entire spectrum of 2010 in between the middle ground and each extreme. Without drawing a line in the sand, the results are inevitable.
I'll push back a little on the partner thing, since it is really just Thrasios who is a problem. You can pair him with a ham sandwich and your deck will probably be pretty good as long as you have counterspells, ramp, and an infinite mana package. Beyond that, the rest of the mechanic is fair to middling. Given that the RC has said repeatedly that they don't care about balancing the format, I think it was necessary to downplay public enemy No.2 when entreating them to fix public enemy No.1 because they have very clearly stated that they think banning for cEDH is a slippery slope.
Solving for that unfortunate misconception, I've come to the conclusion that there's no reason to even HAVE one for casual play, and the only cards that need to be banned are the ones breaking the top end of the format. Casual players are happy to play with house rules, or soft-ban cards that aren't fun, or just exert social pressure on people playing things they don't like, which solves for 99% of problems you'd likely see from a completely open format. Meanwhile competitive players are always looking to bring the biggest guns to pummel their buddies with, so taking the broken toys away is important. Looking at it from that perspective, I think the perfect banlist would probably be ~a dozen cards max. It should be entirely possible to provide for both casual and competitive players with an extremely light touch. For the most part cards that are broken aren't even fun in casual.
Literally just unban everything, ban the small selection of cards ruining high-end games, and everyone wins including the RC, since both camps stop complaining and the criteria for banning becomes crystal clear, making their job easier at the end of the day.
As for your last point, it is crazy to think about how far we've come isn't it? I remember how insurmountably broken Azami and Rofellos were considered back in the day, and while the average deck hasn't really gotten much better (I'd argue that it has in fact gotten worse), the top end of the format has absolutely left those old bogeymen in the dust.
Hey, that's a better response than the spitting venom and ad hominem attacks I usually get for that suggestion, so I'll take it lol. Thanks for being reasonable on the internet, you're rare and appreciated.
And on the flip side, I've played a very fun casual Thrasios deck and I'd be profoundly annoyed if he was banned just to suit the cEDH crowd. Because in an LGS environment, people are going to follow the letter of the law, so if he's banned, he's banned.
Basically what you're saying is "instead of trying to have a banlist for the casual format which is the vast majority of the target of commander, let's completely disregard that and instead have a banlist whose only goal is to appeal to the small percentage of cEDH players."
I'll say what I always say in these circumstances - if cEDH dislikes the banlist so much, then they should just make their own.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
There's definitely no valid reason to otherize players who just want to see the banlist make sense. Casual EDH players, competitive EDH players, and everyone in between, we're all just EDH players.
I agree that Rule Zero is stupid though and shouldn't be a hand-waving cure-all for problems with the format, but it is what it is.
If a card like demonic consultation got added to the banlist, which has very little application in regular EDH but is nasty in cEDH, I wouldn't mind that much - depending on the specific card. But stripping everything off the banlist? No. Adding cards that are fun in normal commander, like Thrasios? No.
I disagree very strongly with this logic. Tazri was, for a time, among the strongest - if not the strongest - cEDH deck because she provided a reliable wincon for food chain combo with as few cards as possible. Does that mean Tazri was broken? Should we take away tribal ally decks from commander players for playing a "broken" commander?
Thrasios's ability is really not that strong in a vacuum. 4 mana is a lot for that effect. He's an outlet for infinite mana that lets you play a lot of colors, and sometimes he generates incremental advantage, but to my understanding the most important part of him for cEDH purposes is that he provides an outlet for infinite mana and a lot of colors. In normal commander, that's not really a problem, and besides, infinite mana also wins with completely innocuous cards that no one would call broken.
Nothing is broken in a vacuum. It depends on the cards around it. Thrasios in a cEDH deck with infinite mana combos might be broken, but in a normal deck where he's just a decent draw engine, he's not even close.
And we're all just magic players, and we're all just people, and we're all just vertebrates, and we're all just animals, and we're all just carbon-based objects. We've got plenty of things in common, yes, but we've also got some pretty important differences that have a pretty profound impact on how we'd like to shape the format.
I don't have any problem with people playing cEDH in their own isolated bubble - that doesn't bother me at all. But that's not how the world works. cEDH players talk online with other commander players, they play at their LGSs. cEDH players want their format to grow, the same as any player, but the spaces they take up are often the same ones other commander players use. When a new commander player goes online to see how to improve their deck, the information they get - through EDHrec, through forums, through posted decklists - will often include cEDH.
Let's say a new player, excited about the Otrimi deck they picked up and looking to improve it after losing at their LGS, goes online for advice. And they happen to see a Cazur + Ukkima cEDH decklist that looks very strong. They might not have the experience to understand the difference between commander and cEDH. They might even get excited at the strategy of the deck, and want to show it off to their friends. Most other games and formats don't have this self-regulating aspect that commander does. Someone fresh off hearthstone - where sure, there are better and worse decks, and there are dumb meme decks, but everything has to withstand the power of the standard meta, there is no true "casual" - may not understand where the line is between improving a deck and what's pushing it too far.
So when they get this cEDH information, they consume it uncritically, and push their deck to the limit. And then they show up to their LGS and play this deck. And some people, the veterans, might say "hey, that's a bit too cEDH, can you play something else?" But the other newer players, in the same boat as the Cazur player without a good grasp of the separation between cEDH and commander, might think "wow, that deck was really strong, I should look up ways to make my deck stronger to compete". It doesn't always happen that way, of course. But it rarely goes back the other direction, from more competitive to less competitive. cEDH is entropy, slowly decaying what it touches.
This is why I dislike cEDH more than standard or modern or legacy or vintage or any other format. Because those other formats stay in their own lane. If someone wants to play standard, then I might not join them, but they're not affecting the culture around my format. cEDH - online and in person - has done permanent harm by insinuating their format with commander, and I suspect a lot of that is intentional to draw more players in. And while there are no doubt plenty of noble cEDH players who try avoid blurring the line between cEDH and commander, there are many more who are happy to spread their format around at the expense of commander. I see the entire format of cEDH as an existential threat to the future of commander and I wish it could be scrubbed off the face of the earth.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6