Most of the games I play are sanctioned because my LGS is doing commander FNMs (or rather was due to that icky poo that's going around right now) and I have missed only a few in last few years (mainly due to business trips but I always took couple decks with me to play abroad). But that's technicality as nothing changes when we play when there is no FNM going on.
Let me illustrate something. Lets assume you want to play a game of standard, so you walk into LGS and ask around if anyone have a deck and wants to play sandard. You find someone, sit, play a few turns and at some point your opponent casts Granted (Fae of Wishes). What do you expect will happen in that situation if the spell resolves? What do you think your opponent expects? Would the answers to those questions change if it was you casting Granted? The answers would for most people be aligned with how the rules work in sanctioned event even though you play a casual game. Do you agree that this is how this situation would look like in almost all cases?
There are multiple places in comp rules that describe how "outside the game" works (like 108.3, 400.10 etc) and the ruling on wish cards is a clarification/abbreviation of those. I think that rule 11 was put there as a way to clarify how those situations work and unify casual and sanctioned commander games. If that's how you define "ugly hack" then I agree, it is that. For me it's an convenient way players can understand how this part of the game will work in commander format without studying the maze that we have instead of rules.
I would realy, really want to have Ikoria FAQ and CR update (and possibly IPG/MTR update) to have clear picture how this mechanic will exactly work instead of 2m video or new set introductory article on mothership.
OK, tbh I didn't expect you to double down on that one. You really think this is argument worth having, let alone one you can win?
To my understanding the vast majority of commander games are unsanctioned. If your LGS wants to run sanctioned events, neat. Although I don't see anything in the official commander rules about sideboards at all tbh (in fact, searching the mtgcommander website for sideboard returned nothing). So if your LGS wanted to have sideboards for multi-game matches there would be nothing stopping them, and thus rule 11 would be the only thing stopping those sideboards from working with wishes. So I'm still not sure why you think it's redundant, even in that unusual context.
If I sat down for a game of standard at my LGS (lol as if) the assumption is probably that we're playing the decks we intend to use for FNMs etc for practice purposes, and not a completely casual game, so we'd be trying to mimic the competitive environment. But sure, it's true that, according to the official rules, if someone used a wish in a nonsanctioned game they could go grab something from their binder. Those are literally the rules. Your claim is that rule 11 is redundant because social convention (for a different, competitive format) would mean that wishes = sideboards, when the rules literally, explicitly contradict that?
Neither 108.3 nor 400.10 explain, in any way, which cards wishes are allowed to get, beyond confirming that sideboards are included within the set of cards outside the game. The ruling on wish cards gives information that does not exist in the comprehensive rules. Maybe it's in there, but I don't see it - I found the same rulings you found and they definitely don't state anything close to what the wish ruling says. It's in no way an "abbreviation" of those rules.
Rule 11 exists because, without it, in a unsanctioned you're legally able to retrieve any card that you own with wishes. Those are literally the rules of the game. It's not a clarification. It's a rule that has functional meaning, and that meaning is to disable any wish effects while playing commander. In my subjective opinion, that's an ugly hack as it drastically changes the functionality of those cards, to the point of rendering most of them almost completely useless.
You may notice that my points are backed up by the official rules of the game taken literally, and yours are backed up by "illustrations" and "expectations". Take that as you will.
As far as how companions will work, the specific wording the RC uses will be somewhat interesting, but I don't think we need anything terribly comprehensive to understand how it will work for practical purposes. Did you have any questions about it? I feel like it's pretty self-explanatory (in comparison to mutate which is kind of a corner-case nightmare).
Say hello to the newset three companions in the discussion.
Jegantha can be run in 5-color decks that accommodate it. Just not ones that run something like Worldpurge or Kaya's Wrath. Probably great for sliver tribal decks like Morophon, the Boundless which rarely if never has more than one of the same mana symbol in their casting cost
Zirda only cares if your starting deck has permanents with activated abilities. Gives you Training Grounds for activated abilities, and even applies to ones that are not on the battlefield. Eternal Dragon for example has an activated ability that would be affected by this ability that can only be activated during the upkeep, but it also has a cycling ability which is an activated ability. Making the overall cost to recur this dragon and cycle it again for another plains card just 2WW instead of 5WW, and if you were willing to pay an extra 1 on top of the effective original cost, you can get two plains cards such as a Savannah and a Hallowed Fountain.
Kaheera is obviously more about tribal and is less explosive, but it already has a home in decks such as Arahbo, Roar of the World.
My vote is to allow these, since Jegantha slots right into my favorite deck. It's domain legends with Sisay, Weatherlight Captain, one legend of each double and triple color combination (none of which have more than one of each color), the 10 BBD partners and some appropriate filling. I could see myself abusing Zirda in the near future as well, though it's squishier than Training Grounds.
1) some of them have alternative modes that still work fine
2) it means they have to day-1-ban any new card with outside-the-game effect.
It would also inflate the banlist by a lot, although they could just add a section for them like the ante or conspiracy cards, so then it doesn't look so bad.
I don’t like companion in commander. I’ve never been fond of “outside the game” cards though. It just isn’t for me. I don’t mind others using it but it’s awkward.
Both of my major groups and other local friends I've talked with have all agreed that it's a forgettable mechanic and the legendary creatures should just be used as a commander instead of card #101.
I do forsee possible unhappy game politics when different metas collide although - where someone with a companion that ends up being fairly consistently useful to an obnoxious degree starts playing with us, and we all view it as a semi-cheat since we don't use the mechanic.
That's the cost of our group coming to a landslide agreement but still willing to play with outsiders. It's happened before and it will continue to happen as long as r&d devise cool new mechanics that were not intended for commander.
1) companion cards come from the command zone, which is a defined zone inside the game. This goes to whomever is trying to argue this mechanic is like a wish or somehow out of the game. You're simply not correct. Stop.
2) I sure would love to be able to cast Burning Wish in commander with a wishboard. That'd be fantastic. But I also understand it's not going to change officially. Wishing otherwise is pointless.
1) companion cards come from the command zone, which is a defined zone inside the game. This goes to whomever is trying to argue this mechanic is like a wish or somehow out of the game. You're simply not correct. Stop.
They don't come from the command zone, unless they are your commander. You cast them from your sideboard or from your collection.
1) companion cards come from the command zone, which is a defined zone inside the game. This goes to whomever is trying to argue this mechanic is like a wish or somehow out of the game. You're simply not correct. Stop.
They don't come from the command zone, unless they are your commander. You cast them from your sideboard or from your collection.
None of these rulings mention the Command Zone for companions. Where did you get this idea?
That's only in constructed formats. Commander doesn't follow all these rules, and if it were to not grand companion to commander decks, Sheldon and the RC would have said otherwise by now, rather than banning one card. Pretty basic stuff.
First off, Lutri is banned. I feel like Lutri was a big reason why this mechanic got its sour taste.
Next off wishes: when using wish cards, the card itself allows a break in the color pie AND gives you more than one option of what you can grab. Yes there are colored Eldrazi and artifacts.
What if the monoblack deck uses death wish to cast vandalblast or worse, something like beacon of immortality that shuffled into their deck (mana rocks that produce any color are a thing, before anyone asks how casting these spells is possible)?
The deal with wish cards is that it doesn’t give just one extra card, it gives X where X is the number of cards in your collection and the best thing is, it only searches for the one you want, not all the others you don’t need, so you never draw into those cards either.
Wishboards=sideboards. No matter how you slice it, even if they are “worse” sideboards.
so companions: limit your deck build not just by color identity but also by their own printed limitations.
I wanted to ru the OP’s as my companion for a Golgari artifact deck but quickly realized that wouldn’t work as if need an artifact Golgari commander :/ hippo is defeated by void winnower. companions are so much worse than wishes.
While RC is not owned by WotC, they do have a responsibility to the player base. New mechanics interest people and get them brewing new decks which is good for the format. Day zero banning a card is bad enough, I remember the day zero errata that occurred pre-modern.
They are in a lose-lose situation too, the RC that is. Ban a mechanic before the player base gets to it and they seem overzealous and afraid of change. Let the players see how bused the mechanic is and they don’t get the pleasure of “I told you s because people will be asking why it wasn’t done from the start.
so companions for me? Sure. Silver border is also welcome to my table. If I don’t like why you re playing, I’ll find a new table.
That's only in constructed formats. Commander doesn't follow all these rules, and if it were to not grand companion to commander decks, Sheldon and the RC would have said otherwise by now, rather than banning one card. Pretty basic stuff.
None of that explains where you got the idea that Companions would use the command zone.
One thing I'm interested in: It appears to me that you can use a Companion that doesn't fit your color identity, as long as your deck fulfills the Companion's requirements, since the companion isn't considered part of your deck.
It's a pretty reasonable idea, and how I figured they would work, as it's an otherwise catchall zone. It's just probably incorrect. I can't find an up to date comprehensive rules to check it so it may even be true.
That's only in constructed formats. Commander doesn't follow all these rules, and if it were to not grand companion to commander decks, Sheldon and the RC would have said otherwise by now, rather than banning one card. Pretty basic stuff.
None of that explains where you got the idea that Companions would use the command zone.
One thing I'm interested in: It appears to me that you can use a Companion that doesn't fit your color identity, as long as your deck fulfills the Companion's requirements, since the companion isn't considered part of your deck.
That is incorrect. Your companion also needs to adhere to your commander's color identity. It has been confirmed a couple of times. I think Eli and Sheldon have both said it on Twitter.
To my understanding the vast majority of commander games are unsanctioned. If your LGS wants to run sanctioned events, neat. Although I don't see anything in the official commander rules about sideboards at all tbh (in fact, searching the mtgcommander website for sideboard returned nothing). So if your LGS wanted to have sideboards for multi-game matches there would be nothing stopping them, and thus rule 11 would be the only thing stopping those sideboards from working with wishes. So I'm still not sure why you think it's redundant, even in that unusual context.
If I sat down for a game of standard at my LGS (lol as if) the assumption is probably that we're playing the decks we intend to use for FNMs etc for practice purposes, and not a completely casual game, so we'd be trying to mimic the competitive environment. But sure, it's true that, according to the official rules, if someone used a wish in a nonsanctioned game they could go grab something from their binder. Those are literally the rules. Your claim is that rule 11 is redundant because social convention (for a different, competitive format) would mean that wishes = sideboards, when the rules literally, explicitly contradict that?
Neither 108.3 nor 400.10 explain, in any way, which cards wishes are allowed to get, beyond confirming that sideboards are included within the set of cards outside the game. The ruling on wish cards gives information that does not exist in the comprehensive rules. Maybe it's in there, but I don't see it - I found the same rulings you found and they definitely don't state anything close to what the wish ruling says. It's in no way an "abbreviation" of those rules.
Rule 11 exists because, without it, in a unsanctioned you're legally able to retrieve any card that you own with wishes. Those are literally the rules of the game. It's not a clarification. It's a rule that has functional meaning, and that meaning is to disable any wish effects while playing commander. In my subjective opinion, that's an ugly hack as it drastically changes the functionality of those cards, to the point of rendering most of them almost completely useless.
You may notice that my points are backed up by the official rules of the game taken literally, and yours are backed up by "illustrations" and "expectations". Take that as you will.
As far as how companions will work, the specific wording the RC uses will be somewhat interesting, but I don't think we need anything terribly comprehensive to understand how it will work for practical purposes. Did you have any questions about it? I feel like it's pretty self-explanatory (in comparison to mutate which is kind of a corner-case nightmare).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Jegantha can be run in 5-color decks that accommodate it. Just not ones that run something like Worldpurge or Kaya's Wrath. Probably great for sliver tribal decks like Morophon, the Boundless which rarely if never has more than one of the same mana symbol in their casting cost
Zirda only cares if your starting deck has permanents with activated abilities. Gives you Training Grounds for activated abilities, and even applies to ones that are not on the battlefield. Eternal Dragon for example has an activated ability that would be affected by this ability that can only be activated during the upkeep, but it also has a cycling ability which is an activated ability. Making the overall cost to recur this dragon and cycle it again for another plains card just 2WW instead of 5WW, and if you were willing to pay an extra 1 on top of the effective original cost, you can get two plains cards such as a Savannah and a Hallowed Fountain.
Kaheera is obviously more about tribal and is less explosive, but it already has a home in decks such as Arahbo, Roar of the World.
1) some of them have alternative modes that still work fine
2) it means they have to day-1-ban any new card with outside-the-game effect.
It would also inflate the banlist by a lot, although they could just add a section for them like the ante or conspiracy cards, so then it doesn't look so bad.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I do forsee possible unhappy game politics when different metas collide although - where someone with a companion that ends up being fairly consistently useful to an obnoxious degree starts playing with us, and we all view it as a semi-cheat since we don't use the mechanic.
That's the cost of our group coming to a landslide agreement but still willing to play with outsiders. It's happened before and it will continue to happen as long as r&d devise cool new mechanics that were not intended for commander.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
Lutri can go in any edh deck as 101
And then yorion can go in no edh deck as 101
1) companion cards come from the command zone, which is a defined zone inside the game. This goes to whomever is trying to argue this mechanic is like a wish or somehow out of the game. You're simply not correct. Stop.
2) I sure would love to be able to cast Burning Wish in commander with a wishboard. That'd be fantastic. But I also understand it's not going to change officially. Wishing otherwise is pointless.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
They don't come from the command zone, unless they are your commander. You cast them from your sideboard or from your collection.
Check this - https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Companion
None of these rulings mention the Command Zone for companions. Where did you get this idea?
That's only in constructed formats. Commander doesn't follow all these rules, and if it were to not grand companion to commander decks, Sheldon and the RC would have said otherwise by now, rather than banning one card. Pretty basic stuff.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Next off wishes: when using wish cards, the card itself allows a break in the color pie AND gives you more than one option of what you can grab. Yes there are colored Eldrazi and artifacts.
What if the monoblack deck uses death wish to cast vandalblast or worse, something like beacon of immortality that shuffled into their deck (mana rocks that produce any color are a thing, before anyone asks how casting these spells is possible)?
The deal with wish cards is that it doesn’t give just one extra card, it gives X where X is the number of cards in your collection and the best thing is, it only searches for the one you want, not all the others you don’t need, so you never draw into those cards either.
Wishboards=sideboards. No matter how you slice it, even if they are “worse” sideboards.
so companions: limit your deck build not just by color identity but also by their own printed limitations.
I wanted to ru the OP’s as my companion for a Golgari artifact deck but quickly realized that wouldn’t work as if need an artifact Golgari commander :/ hippo is defeated by void winnower. companions are so much worse than wishes.
While RC is not owned by WotC, they do have a responsibility to the player base. New mechanics interest people and get them brewing new decks which is good for the format. Day zero banning a card is bad enough, I remember the day zero errata that occurred pre-modern.
They are in a lose-lose situation too, the RC that is. Ban a mechanic before the player base gets to it and they seem overzealous and afraid of change. Let the players see how bused the mechanic is and they don’t get the pleasure of “I told you s because people will be asking why it wasn’t done from the start.
so companions for me? Sure. Silver border is also welcome to my table. If I don’t like why you re playing, I’ll find a new table.
None of that explains where you got the idea that Companions would use the command zone.
One thing I'm interested in: It appears to me that you can use a Companion that doesn't fit your color identity, as long as your deck fulfills the Companion's requirements, since the companion isn't considered part of your deck.