I love the CommandZone podcast, gameknights and all their content, but sometimes I get the perception that they made some missplays on purpose, it is my perception or you yhink it too.
He choses to play and pass hopping it to stick.. but came on, wuld you play it without having the green mana for the activation?
Then later in the same episode he plays Beastmaster ascension with no creatures in play that cann atack, I would never play beastmaster unless I have at least enought creatures available to atack right there and get those counters because if you do like Josh did then every single opponent will have just too much time to respond.
I am missing something? they are playing bad on purpose just for the show or I am the one not seing properly the plays?}
I have seen sevrral times this kind of plays in other episodes
It seems like you're expecting a different level and style of play from them than others do. For example, the 'misplays' you describe here would be fairly common plays in my own fairly casual group. If you've got the mana, and nothing else to play, why not drop one of these cards for future use if they don't get removed? Don't answer that, I understand why it'd be considered sub-optimal, I just can't be bothered to hold onto cards I could play for turn after turn without doing anything until I've got enough mana to do all the things at once.
Now, there might still be some aspect of keeping the show in mind here. A game where everyone is only playing lands and ramps and then passing until they've got enough mana to win outright would be pretty boring, even if it might be optimal, but I think that the considerations here is to have fun and exciting games by not playing a 100% tuned competitive playstyle, and the fact that this makes for better youtube is a secondary concern.
It seems like you're expecting a different level and style of play from them than others do. For example, the 'misplays' you describe here would be fairly common plays in my own fairly casual group. If you've got the mana, and nothing else to play, why not drop one of these cards for future use if they don't get removed? Don't answer that, I understand why it'd be considered sub-optimal, I just can't be bothered to hold onto cards I could play for turn after turn without doing anything until I've got enough mana to do all the things at once.
Now, there might still be some aspect of keeping the show in mind here. A game where everyone is only playing lands and ramps and then passing until they've got enough mana to win outright would be pretty boring, even if it might be optimal, but I think that the considerations here is to have fun and exciting games by not playing a 100% tuned competitive playstyle, and the fact that this makes for better youtube is a secondary concern.
Not to "win out right" but... In my playgroup a bestmaster ascension wount last a turn and trust me, the decks in my playgroup dont get the 10% levels of those decks, we dont have gaias cradle nor the fast mana rocks or legacy duals , So, you actually think they play that way because is good for the show
Not to "win out right" but... In my playgroup a bestmaster ascension wount last a turn and trust me, the decks in my playgroup 10% of those decks, we dont have gaias cradle nor the fast mana rocks or legacy duals , So, you actually think they play that way because is good for the show
How heavily tuned and how competitive a group is isn't just a function of card cost.
Anyway, in my own group a card like beastmaster's ascension might get countered on cast, might get killed in a turn, or might remain in play for quite a while, especially if the caster can't immediately capitalize on it and there are other targets. How long such a card remains in play depends entirely on the style of decks you play and the kind of meta your local group uses. You state that in your group, such a card would get removed immediately. In mine, that'd only happen if it was a must-answer threat the moment it got played, and fi someone actually had an answer in their hand.
What I'm trying to say here is: "Don't confuse 'playing to a different meta' with 'misplays'."
Can't remember which episode, but I believe there was one where someone had a win right in front of them, but didn't take it and lost.
In all the groups I've played with, most players make an astounding number of mistakes. Commander is very complex as a format, and many commander players haven't really played on the competitive side of the game to hone their fundamentals. I see mistakes whenever I watch CMZ play, but a lot fewer than I see locally.
It is a little annoying that, afaik, there's no one famous as being great at commander. Josh is fine but I've met plenty of people who are better (and if I'm being honest and a little braggy, I think I'm better). At the end of the day, with no high profile tournaments to identify the best players, it's just down to what gets the views, and most people watching those shows are the same people making horrendous misplays at my LGS. To them, Josh is probably indistinguishable from a pro.
It's also likely that they're focusing on showmanship - not in terms of making intentionally bad plays, but just that they're distracted. They're trying to act and play magic simultaneously. I know when I'm trying to play a tight game, whether at a tournament or just a critical turn in a casual commander game, I'm not exactly interesting to watch. I'm 100% focused on the cards, and everything outside of that may as well not exist. In the tank, as it were. Not exactly what you want when you're trying to make an exciting youtube video. They're probably shooting from the hip and not thinking too carefully, because they're focused more on trying to be personable instead of magic-playing robots.
EDIT: here's the episode: https://youtu.be/H1dMKyOpoEg?t=2083 If Jimmy had just used Huatli's 3rd ability to remove blockers while Josh was defenseless, he would have won.
Also the prof was horrific at politics and threat assessment, but that's more complex than simply throwing away unavoidable lethal.
There's probably a lot of factors going on here. I have noticed a tendency to let things sit for at least a turn order often enough, I believe in order to build up height and let various cards get to show what they can do - it's not always very exciting if someone plays a [[Mind's Eye]] and it immediately gets destroyed. They're making a show as well as playing a game.
And that can lead to these things happening as well - remember, they ARE making a show. This means that they have a lot more going on, and a lot more to think about at any given time. They'll likely also periodically need to pause, in order to clean up the board for a certain camera shot/angle. They have a lot of effects, where you see the board, and a bunch of things get destroyed disappearing from the board. This takes at least two shots - the before and after, while being careful not to disrupt too much of the rest of the board so the editor can fix it, and everyone has to back up during that shot. This adds a lot of overhead to filming the game, so it's understandable that certain pieces of the game can get missed.
Obviously, I assume all of their asides get filmed after the game is done, when they can choose what seemed like the most impactful plays, and likely record far more than they actually air - but just remember there's still a lot that goes into this. Even while the game is going on.
Also, I do feel they play at a more relaxed/casual/kitchen level - which is mostly where my playgroup likes to chill as well.
In this case, I'm not sure about labeling this as a misplay. He got another creature on the board for Cradle, and got a snake out of it because it came in with a -1 counter, which sets up some defensive plays. While I question running out the Elder so early as well, I can see the benefits to it too.
I'd say the biggest case of Command Zone people playing weirdly to try to achieve a certain outcome was that one game where Melissa DeTora was playing the enchantress deck and The Professor was playing without any of his sanity whatsoever. It was really obvious the aim of that game was "Let's have an episode where we teach a serious pro player about the wonders of politics" first and foremost.
I don't know If Josh is trying to hold back on purpose for the show due to how skilled his deck building for EDH / Commander is. It could be that the amount of access he has to a lot of expensive cards compared to other players makes it easier for him to acquire the type of consistency he's looking for in most of his builds. It almost kind of feels as though Jimmy doesn't put in as much effort to his EDH / Commander decks because he's more casual than Josh is where his play style tends to lean a bit toward cEDH without being cEDH. Either that or Jimmy doesn't run enough card advantage to prevent his decks from running out of gas often which seems to be a recurring theme I've noticed on Game Knights.
I think it's more due to the amount of time they have to build decks between each Game Knights episode. Skilled deck building in EDH / Commander requires thinking outside the box more in terms of data mining all possible synergies, card interactions, and consistency in order to get the best results whether it's interactive or non-interactive. It's probably got less to do with misplays and more about making sure the decks they build don't unintentionally create a non-interactive board state that's too difficult for other players at the table to answer. As long as you've thought ahead of how the cards work then normally you shouldn't have a problem. You want to create opportunities for other players to counteract with your board state.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
In my opinion they definitely make sub-optimal plays. Some of them probably on purpose for the sake of better content. They want games to be entertaining for the audience, and they want games to develop in a certain way. Many threats just go unanswered for WAY too long in my opinion. It does seem sometimes they play cards "just because" instead of holding them back for maximum impact.
One thing I have noticed with many commander game play channels is the lack of removal. Overall things don't get killed very often, which leads to crowded board states. But watching those board states breakdown in spectacular fashion can be entertaining. Game play is not as fun to watch when every threat gets answered in 1 turn rotation, but my games never play out like theirs. Maybe because I am the one packing larger removal suites? I don't like to get blown out by a single card.
In a recent CMZ Josh copied a Selvala and it remained for almost the entirety of the game making 6+ mana every turn. No one felt obliged to target it with anything.
A point made above is that all their table talk and politicing does probably distract from perfect lines of play. I know when I want to play serious, conversation is at a minimum, and politics change the dynamic of the game where the "optimal" play may not be the "right" one.
I gave up on them a while ago. I used to enjoy them when they were in rocket jump, but when they started recording live I kinda lost interest. The main problem is that they don't have a defined audience. I just don't understand what type of commander person they make content for.
And it's not just them. "Many magic content creators" have become boring and changed focus from providing quality content to just providing content.
I'm not sure if this is accurate or not, but in current SCG edh content they rarely cut to showing what's in players hands - specifically Jeremy's. I used to dm and ask why players chose the suboptimal route instead of closing out a game, and all to frequently the response was, in short, to prolong the footage. Which means the game wasn't authentic and I just lost interest.
I get that youtube is a platform where the content creators need to do specific things to make ends meet, but eventually a player becomes better at the game and format they recognize purposeful misplays, or worse when they use editing to cut and play a stacked deck just to showcase cards and interactions so passively push sales for their sponsors.
Another concern is the voice of some of these channels impacting the actual format. "Its paradox engine good" is just a funny joke in our meta, who is competitive but not cEDH. Every time we heard that phrase we lost a bit more faith in their channel, and we worry that popular channels voicing an opinion (if it's right or wrong) ended up impacting the actual banlist.
To date my favorite edh footage will always be early scg content with McDarby and West. 2nd to that is either goldfish for casual fun or PK for actually relevant commentary.
I found it ironic how the Command Zone recently posted a YouTube video telling their viewers to learn from their mistakes just days after this thread was posted. So it's good to know that they still follow MTGS given the popularity of Social Media outlets with reddit, Twitter, and Facebook. There's also MTGNexus which doesn't get as much traffic sadly but it's there.
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"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I found it ironic how the Command Zone recently posted a YouTube video telling their viewers to learn from their mistakes just days after this thread was posted. So it's good to know that they still follow MTGS given the popularity of Social Media outlets with reddit, Twitter, and Facebook. There's also MTGNexus which doesn't get as much traffic sadly but it's there.
I dont hink they did that video because of this particular thread because in that case they would adress the "bad moves" we quote here, I think they had that video in the queue for a while and was a coincidence they release it now.
I think they read or have people who read the forums , maybe in a couple of moths they would do a 2nd part of that video including our views here
For example, in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqalJabqJsA at minute 7.47 Josh decide to play Wickerbough elder and he tapped out, he has a lot of pretty good targets for the ability but no mana for the activation.
He choses to play and pass hopping it to stick.. but came on, wuld you play it without having the green mana for the activation?
Then later in the same episode he plays Beastmaster ascension with no creatures in play that cann atack, I would never play beastmaster unless I have at least enought creatures available to atack right there and get those counters because if you do like Josh did then every single opponent will have just too much time to respond.
I am missing something? they are playing bad on purpose just for the show or I am the one not seing properly the plays?}
I have seen sevrral times this kind of plays in other episodes
EDH: RWB Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
EDH: UWG Phelddagrif, The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Alela, Artful provocateur The current updated decklist is here
EDH: GB Hapatra, vizier of poisons The current updated decklist is here
Now, there might still be some aspect of keeping the show in mind here. A game where everyone is only playing lands and ramps and then passing until they've got enough mana to win outright would be pretty boring, even if it might be optimal, but I think that the considerations here is to have fun and exciting games by not playing a 100% tuned competitive playstyle, and the fact that this makes for better youtube is a secondary concern.
Not to "win out right" but... In my playgroup a bestmaster ascension wount last a turn and trust me, the decks in my playgroup dont get the 10% levels of those decks, we dont have gaias cradle nor the fast mana rocks or legacy duals , So, you actually think they play that way because is good for the show
EDH: RWB Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
EDH: UWG Phelddagrif, The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Alela, Artful provocateur The current updated decklist is here
EDH: GB Hapatra, vizier of poisons The current updated decklist is here
How heavily tuned and how competitive a group is isn't just a function of card cost.
Anyway, in my own group a card like beastmaster's ascension might get countered on cast, might get killed in a turn, or might remain in play for quite a while, especially if the caster can't immediately capitalize on it and there are other targets. How long such a card remains in play depends entirely on the style of decks you play and the kind of meta your local group uses. You state that in your group, such a card would get removed immediately. In mine, that'd only happen if it was a must-answer threat the moment it got played, and fi someone actually had an answer in their hand.
What I'm trying to say here is: "Don't confuse 'playing to a different meta' with 'misplays'."
In all the groups I've played with, most players make an astounding number of mistakes. Commander is very complex as a format, and many commander players haven't really played on the competitive side of the game to hone their fundamentals. I see mistakes whenever I watch CMZ play, but a lot fewer than I see locally.
It is a little annoying that, afaik, there's no one famous as being great at commander. Josh is fine but I've met plenty of people who are better (and if I'm being honest and a little braggy, I think I'm better). At the end of the day, with no high profile tournaments to identify the best players, it's just down to what gets the views, and most people watching those shows are the same people making horrendous misplays at my LGS. To them, Josh is probably indistinguishable from a pro.
It's also likely that they're focusing on showmanship - not in terms of making intentionally bad plays, but just that they're distracted. They're trying to act and play magic simultaneously. I know when I'm trying to play a tight game, whether at a tournament or just a critical turn in a casual commander game, I'm not exactly interesting to watch. I'm 100% focused on the cards, and everything outside of that may as well not exist. In the tank, as it were. Not exactly what you want when you're trying to make an exciting youtube video. They're probably shooting from the hip and not thinking too carefully, because they're focused more on trying to be personable instead of magic-playing robots.
EDIT: here's the episode: https://youtu.be/H1dMKyOpoEg?t=2083 If Jimmy had just used Huatli's 3rd ability to remove blockers while Josh was defenseless, he would have won.
Also the prof was horrific at politics and threat assessment, but that's more complex than simply throwing away unavoidable lethal.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
And that can lead to these things happening as well - remember, they ARE making a show. This means that they have a lot more going on, and a lot more to think about at any given time. They'll likely also periodically need to pause, in order to clean up the board for a certain camera shot/angle. They have a lot of effects, where you see the board, and a bunch of things get destroyed disappearing from the board. This takes at least two shots - the before and after, while being careful not to disrupt too much of the rest of the board so the editor can fix it, and everyone has to back up during that shot. This adds a lot of overhead to filming the game, so it's understandable that certain pieces of the game can get missed.
Obviously, I assume all of their asides get filmed after the game is done, when they can choose what seemed like the most impactful plays, and likely record far more than they actually air - but just remember there's still a lot that goes into this. Even while the game is going on.
Also, I do feel they play at a more relaxed/casual/kitchen level - which is mostly where my playgroup likes to chill as well.
In this case, I'm not sure about labeling this as a misplay. He got another creature on the board for Cradle, and got a snake out of it because it came in with a -1 counter, which sets up some defensive plays. While I question running out the Elder so early as well, I can see the benefits to it too.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I mean yeah at the end of the day it IS a show.
I think it's more due to the amount of time they have to build decks between each Game Knights episode. Skilled deck building in EDH / Commander requires thinking outside the box more in terms of data mining all possible synergies, card interactions, and consistency in order to get the best results whether it's interactive or non-interactive. It's probably got less to do with misplays and more about making sure the decks they build don't unintentionally create a non-interactive board state that's too difficult for other players at the table to answer. As long as you've thought ahead of how the cards work then normally you shouldn't have a problem. You want to create opportunities for other players to counteract with your board state.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
One thing I have noticed with many commander game play channels is the lack of removal. Overall things don't get killed very often, which leads to crowded board states. But watching those board states breakdown in spectacular fashion can be entertaining. Game play is not as fun to watch when every threat gets answered in 1 turn rotation, but my games never play out like theirs. Maybe because I am the one packing larger removal suites? I don't like to get blown out by a single card.
In a recent CMZ Josh copied a Selvala and it remained for almost the entirety of the game making 6+ mana every turn. No one felt obliged to target it with anything.
A point made above is that all their table talk and politicing does probably distract from perfect lines of play. I know when I want to play serious, conversation is at a minimum, and politics change the dynamic of the game where the "optimal" play may not be the "right" one.
And it's not just them. "Many magic content creators" have become boring and changed focus from providing quality content to just providing content.
I'm not sure if this is accurate or not, but in current SCG edh content they rarely cut to showing what's in players hands - specifically Jeremy's. I used to dm and ask why players chose the suboptimal route instead of closing out a game, and all to frequently the response was, in short, to prolong the footage. Which means the game wasn't authentic and I just lost interest.
I get that youtube is a platform where the content creators need to do specific things to make ends meet, but eventually a player becomes better at the game and format they recognize purposeful misplays, or worse when they use editing to cut and play a stacked deck just to showcase cards and interactions so passively push sales for their sponsors.
Another concern is the voice of some of these channels impacting the actual format. "Its paradox engine good" is just a funny joke in our meta, who is competitive but not cEDH. Every time we heard that phrase we lost a bit more faith in their channel, and we worry that popular channels voicing an opinion (if it's right or wrong) ended up impacting the actual banlist.
To date my favorite edh footage will always be early scg content with McDarby and West. 2nd to that is either goldfish for casual fun or PK for actually relevant commentary.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I dont hink they did that video because of this particular thread because in that case they would adress the "bad moves" we quote here, I think they had that video in the queue for a while and was a coincidence they release it now.
I think they read or have people who read the forums , maybe in a couple of moths they would do a 2nd part of that video including our views here
EDH: RWB Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
EDH: UWG Phelddagrif, The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Alela, Artful provocateur The current updated decklist is here
EDH: GB Hapatra, vizier of poisons The current updated decklist is here