I will not mourn the loss of either card. I agree that Iona doesn't deserve to be banned.
I like to read how other people build their versions of my favorite commanders, and I certainly got sick of seeing Paradox Engine as the go-to and build-around card in almost all of those decks.
Mizzix of the Paradox Engine.
Breya, Paradox Engine Shaper.
Inalla, Paradox Engine Ritualist.
Roon of the Hidden Paradox Engine.
Okay, we get it, the card is good, but maybe we can get back to those deck following their central theme instead of being PE clones?
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I think the role of the ban list is to stop people from "accidentally" making a bad gameplay experience, doing it deliberately is pretty much impossible to stop.
If you are playing with Iona in your deck even in a silly angels deck you can just accidentally lock a player out of the game and it sucks for that one player. I think to break Painter you have to work for it, it has a lot more upside for doing fun things so I think it is a net positive... hopefully.
Paradox engine was laughably easy to combo within pretty much any deck with a few mana rocks, it really was having a Prophet of Kruphix effect it wasn't the worst card in commander for degeneracy just that you could shove it into anything and it would become degenerate.
Personally, I still want Cyclonic Rift banned its just such a catch-all groaner that's hard to stop form having a big impact, I am just super sick of it.
Are you speaking of multi-player games? Iona is a 7/7 flyer without any protection. She will not be on the battlefield forever. The monocolor player doesn't have to sit there and wait. He can give up and leave if he wants. Triumpf of hordes often kills just one player. That player has to wait until the game is finished or find another group. Is basically the same.
No not everyone has to play colorless removal because not everyone is playing mono color decks. You should know your game group and you can perfectly adjust your deck to your meta.
There are better ways to keep other players from playing magic. She is an iconic card for me. One of the first creature I got by trading with friends. I have good memories with her, like preventing some Bord wipes or protection from counters.
If other players aren't affected (or majorly affected) by iona, they may well get an advantage from her existing and want to protect her, so that the mono-colored player is locked out. So yes, Iona can survive for a long time and meanwhile you're stuck there doing nothing. Does it always play out that way? Well no. But the range of "how annoying is Iona" goes from "pretty annoying" to "incredibly annoying" with no real room for "actually pretty fun".
My meta is like 30 people. If you get knocked out early, you can find other people to play with. Not a big problem. But I'm supposed to tailor my decks to 30-odd people playing hundreds of different decks of wildly different power levels?
Are you speaking of multi-player games? Iona is a 7/7 flyer without any protection. She will not be on the battlefield forever. The monocolor player doesn't have to sit there and wait. He can give up and leave if he wants. Triumpf of hordes often kills just one player. That player has to wait until the game is finished or find another group. Is basically the same.
No not everyone has to play colorless removal because not everyone is playing mono color decks. You should know your game group and you can perfectly adjust your deck to your meta.
There are better ways to keep other players from playing magic. She is an iconic card for me. One of the first creature I got by trading with friends. I have good memories with her, like preventing some Bord wipes or protection from counters.
If other players aren't affected (or majorly affected) by iona, they may well get an advantage from her existing and want to protect her, so that the mono-colored player is locked out. So yes, Iona can survive for a long time and meanwhile you're stuck there doing nothing. Does it always play out that way? Well no. But the range of "how annoying is Iona" goes from "pretty annoying" to "incredibly annoying" with no real room for "actually pretty fun".
My meta is like 30 people. If you get knocked out early, you can find other people to play with. Not a big problem. But I'm supposed to tailor my decks to 30-odd people playing hundreds of different decks of wildly different power levels?
What you mentioned with other people not being affected or just lightly affected and protecting Iona by spending resources is actually great. Is *****ty for the one player but great in a political/multiplayer way. If they keep spending resources in a card that they are not even controlling just to lock the mono-color player, than maybe that player has done something wrong or was leading anyways. I mean look yes she can be odd in some games but there are cards that do this for every player and they are legal. Color hate, stax cards etc. for far less mana. And painter open up combos much more disgusting that Iona could ever be.
So if someone has a stasis/orb lock online everything is okay because he wins the game and the other 3 player can give up because they can do nothing. But if a mono-color player get locked by an Iona than everything is miserable because he has to sit there and do nothing? Where is the different for you to be defeated early in the game or be locked?
And no you don't have to tailor your decks to 30-odd people but you can prepare yourself for the one hate card out there that seemly is destroying your day/fun.
But well this discussion won't change any opinions. She is banned now and will disappear in my binder.
I wish Sheldon&con would ban more often because of the funny, dumb comments that are said after every announce.
While nothing will ever be funnier than the discussion regarding sylvan primordial, this is getting pretty fun too.
Iona lovers, i'm pretty sure your friends will still let you run her, since she's such a fun and fair card, no one will have a problem with that, right?
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I think the role of the ban list is to stop people from "accidentally" making a bad gameplay experience, doing it deliberately is pretty much impossible to stop.
I think this is the important point that too many people seem not to get. The banlist philosophy is pretty straightforward.
If you want to do broken and unpleasant stuff, they cannot stop you. There are too many powerful cards, and there is no way to police all of them without making the banlist 10 times the size it currently is.
Primeval Titan is banned. Hermit Druid is not.
You can do much more broken things with the druid than with the titan - not close.
But unless your trying to do (and set up for) broken things, the druid is innocuous and tends not to be anything other than a nice card.
The titan, on the other hand, changes/warps/wrecks the game regardless of whether you try and set up silly things or just love his value.
If you want to watch the world burn, the rules committee cannot stop you. Their goal seems to be to remove the most common causes of accidental fires, and it seems to be working well.
PE ban is an incredibly personal and biased decision. Only casuals want this card banned. There's a stronger case for PE not to be banned than for it to be banned. Not only does PE only fit into decks that run large amounts of rocks or dorks, it also requires set up and does nothing by itself. The card doesn't even untap lands, and there are multiple ways to deal with it before it goes off. This is a casual salt ban for a card which wasn't a problem in cedh. Now casuals will just find somehitng new to complain about and flashhulk has become more oppressive for no reason in cedh.
paradox engine being banned should have happened a long time ago you can claim it doesn’t break the moment it enters nope every single game I was in/watch the moment it popped out it ended the game and I even did a few game Enders with it
Iona yea she was a good decision to ban mono color decks I just rising up in popularity and it just hoses mono decks instantly when she pops out
Now as for painter risky and not to bad of a decision at the same time I mean we know instant wins with painter exist that are not banned the most known is grindstone and hoser of specific cards could rise up better with it unbanned too and Iona was the biggest reason of its banning to begin with
What you mentioned with other people not being affected or just lightly affected and protecting Iona by spending resources is actually great. Is *****ty for the one player but great in a political/multiplayer way. If they keep spending resources in a card that they are not even controlling just to lock the mono-color player, than maybe that player has done something wrong or was leading anyways. I mean look yes she can be odd in some games but there are cards that do this for every player and they are legal. Color hate, stax cards etc. for far less mana. And painter open up combos much more disgusting that Iona could ever be.
So if someone has a stasis/orb lock online everything is okay because he wins the game and the other 3 player can give up because they can do nothing. But if a mono-color player get locked by an Iona than everything is miserable because he has to sit there and do nothing? Where is the different for you to be defeated early in the game or be locked?
And no you don't have to tailor your decks to 30-odd people but you can prepare yourself for the one hate card out there that seemly is destroying your day/fun.
But well this discussion won't change any opinions. She is banned now and will disappear in my binder.
Oh I haven't actually played against Iona recently. Maybe in years tbh. I don't think it was an emergency ban. But it's a card that only serves to make games suck, so it does deserve a ban imo.
The difference between Iona and, say, stasis, is that (1) iona needs no effort to break the symmetry, and more importantly (2) Iona is a big sweet-looking angel that casuals will actually want to put in their decks. Casuals aren't lining up to put winter orb in their decks because they'll have to build around it, and because it's not very "fun". Iona looks like she might be fun but is, in fact, not.
That's the argument the RC uses, as well as I can recite it. You're free to disagree with the way they ban cards, but that's how they go about doing it. By their criteria, Iona is definitely more deserving of banning that stasis.
PE ban is an incredibly personal and biased decision. Only casuals want this card banned.
Awesome, then they made the right call, since this is a casual format.
There's a stronger case for PE not to be banned than for it to be banned. Not only does PE only fit into decks that run large amounts of rocks or dorks, it also requires set up and does nothing by itself.
Good thing mana rocks are niche cards that barely see play.
The card doesn't even untap lands, and there are multiple ways to deal with it before it goes off. This is a casual salt ban for a card which wasn't a problem in cedh.
Then cEDH players can ignore the ban and keep playing it.
Now casuals will just find somehitng new to complain about and flashhulk has become more oppressive for no reason in cedh.
How can a "not a problem" card create more of a problem for a combo that is way faster? Given the choice of playing a deck that's not a problem and one that is, shouldn't the default be to play the latter?
I'm just going to post here the official format philosophy document that was posted at the same time as the new ban announcements. I think it might enlighten some people about why certain cards will be banned and others won't.
Quote from Sheldon »
The Philosophy of Commander
Commander is for fun. It’s a socially interactive, multiplayer Magic: the Gathering format full of wild interactions and epic plays, specifically designed as an alternative to tournament Magic. As is fitting for a format in which you choose an avatar to lead your forces into battle, Commander focuses on a resonant experience. Each game is a journey the players share, relying on a social contract in which each player is considerate of the experiences of everyone involved--this promotes player interaction, inter-game variance, a variety of play styles, and a positive communal atmosphere. At the end of an ideal Commander game, someone will have won, but all participants will have had the opportunity to express themselves through their deck building and game play.
The rules of Commander are designed to maximize these experiences within a game of Magic. The addition of a commander, larger life total, and deck building restrictions emphasize the format’s flavor; they increase deck variance and add more opportunities for participation and expression.
The goal of the ban list is similar; it does not seek to regulate competitive play or power level, which are decisions best left to individual play groups. The ban list seeks to demonstrate which cards threaten the positive player experience at the core of the format or prevent players from reasonable self-expression. The primary focus of the list is on cards which are problematic because of their extreme consistency, ubiquity, and/or ability to restrict others’ opportunities.
No single rule can establish criteria for a ban; there are many mitigating or exacerbating factors. Some cards will represent an extreme on a single axis; others are a confluence of multiple smaller issues. The following list isn’t exhaustive, nor is it a checklist, but it represents ways in which cards challenge the positive experiences players look for in commander games. It includes cards which easily or excessively
• Cause severe resource imbalances
• Allow players to win out of nowhere
• Prevent players from contributing to the game in a meaningful way.
• Cause other players to feel they must play certain cards, even though they are also problematic.
• Are very difficult for other players to interact with, especially if doing so requires dedicated, narrow responses when deck-building.
• Interact poorly with the multiplayer nature of the format or the specific rules of Commander.
• Lead to repetitive game play.
Cards which are banned likely meet a few of these criteria in a significant way; not all cards which meet some of the criteria need to banned.
We prefer to be conservative with what goes on or comes off the ban list. Commander players often become emotionally attached to their decks through play and personalization, and we value that experience highly. We only want to disrupt that bond when necessary.
Commander is designed to be a malleable format. We encourage groups to use the rules and the ban list as a baseline to optimize their own experience. This is not license for an individual to force their vision onto a play group, but encouragement for players to discuss their goals and how the rules might be adjusted to suit those goals. The format can be broken; we believe games are more fun if you don’t.
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Sorry for my possible english mistakes, I'm not a native speaker.
She's a card that locks out monocolor decks. Colorless solutions are mostly on very bad rate. It's not the same as packing graveyard answers, for example, those are basically always vastly more efficient than what's necessiated to remove the angel. In addition, it requires a singular removal piece in a 100 card deck, intended for a particular card whose problems aren't truly mirrored in other cards.
For example, graveyard removal is always worth it to include a few effective pieces of. Same with artifact and enchantment removal. How many cards require similar removal to Iona, really? In a monocolor deck? There are plenty of impossibly resilient threats that you can try and race, for example. Iona is just a singular piece of frustration that either warps deckbuilding or ruins the games played.
No, I haven't seen her much. But it's because the people I play with remove her after trying her out. Because she ruins the games.
She's a card that locks out monocolor decks. Colorless solutions are mostly on very bad rate. It's not the same as packing graveyard answers, for example, those are basically always vastly more efficient than what's necessiated to remove the angel. In addition, it requires a singular removal piece in a 100 card deck, intended for a particular card whose problems aren't truly mirrored in other cards.
For example, graveyard removal is always worth it to include a few effective pieces of. Same with artifact and enchantment removal. How many cards require similar removal to Iona, really? In a monocolor deck? There are plenty of impossibly resilient threats that you can try and race, for example. Iona is just a singular piece of frustration that either warps deckbuilding or ruins the games played.
No, I haven't seen her much. But it's because the people I play with remove her after trying her out. Because she ruins the games.
And yet despite the number of people who have stopped playing her because of what she can do to a game, players still are upset because they keep playing her casually in their angel deck. It's almost like she is a card that is a trap, unlike Armageddon, for example.
People need to stop acting like painter/grindstone being in the format changes anything outside of perhaps cEDH. The combo existed already with RiP/Void Helm. Sure, painter stone is faster and colorless, but it's not new, and unless I'm reading it wrong it can only take out one player per turn like RiP Helm. Blood Clock requires more setup but kills the table.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
People need to stop acting like painter/grindstone being in the format changes anything outside of perhaps cEDH. The combo existed already with RiP/Void Helm. Sure, painter stone is faster and colorless, but it's not new, and unless I'm reading it wrong it can only take out one player per turn like RiP Helm. Blood Clock requires more setup but kills the table.
Duskmantle/Mindcrank been around for years too.
I really think people are confused if they think this combo is anything but hot garbage ready to get blown out by Volrath's Stronghold and Academy Ruins over and over again.
While there's a bit of a Timmy element to Iona it's not a trap card. As nuts as, say, Paradox Engine is a new player could easily slot it into a deck just trying to generate value before realizing how east it is to break.
Iona, on the other hand, is very up front about what she does. Even the Timmiest Timmy runs her to kick the mono colored decks in the groin. It's also not like Armageddon; land destruction is often followed by "now what?" Iona's "now what?" is beats.
Of course there's a lot of people who justifiably don't want to worry about Iona showing up at the table. I don't blame them. But it's not a trap, it's not an accident, and treating it as such masks what it does. It's a hard control option on a stick, not a mythical Timmy-tricking boogeyman.
Iona, on the other hand, is very up front about what she does. Even the Timmiest Timmy runs her to kick the mono colored decks in the groin. It's also not like Armageddon; land destruction is often followed by "now what?" Iona's "now what?" is beats.
Of course there's a lot of people who justifiably don't want to worry about Iona showing up at the table. I don't blame them. But it's not a trap, it's not an accident, and treating it as such masks what it does. It's a hard control option on a stick, not a mythical Timmy-tricking boogeyman.
I dont think this is true. Many people play multicolors, and big costly angels seem cool and fun. Maybe after it ruins a few games people come around, but I can see for sure why new folks think it looks cool.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
While there's a bit of a Timmy element to Iona it's not a trap card. As nuts as, say, Paradox Engine is a new player could easily slot it into a deck just trying to generate value before realizing how east it is to break.
Iona, on the other hand, is very up front about what she does. Even the Timmiest Timmy runs her to kick the mono colored decks in the groin. It's also not like Armageddon; land destruction is often followed by "now what?" Iona's "now what?" is beats.
Of course there's a lot of people who justifiably don't want to worry about Iona showing up at the table. I don't blame them. But it's not a trap, it's not an accident, and treating it as such masks what it does. It's a hard control option on a stick, not a mythical Timmy-tricking boogeyman.
In my experience, the Timmy use is to runnit as blue protection in your jank deck. Only sometimes the best line of play I'd to name a different color that hits more players. Or maybe it's just to lock that one person out who is ahead. And you know what happens when one person is handicapped in the game and the other opponents aren't? "Phew, good thing that card doesn't affect me and I don't have to expend resources dealing with it!"
So yeah, it's a trap card, because the target audience isn't intentionally playing a prison deck, any more than they were playing MLD but still wanted to use Sundering Titam in order to keep ramp in check.
No, I haven't seen her much. But it's because the people I play with remove her after trying her out. Because she ruins the games. And yet despite the number of people who have stopped playing her because of what she can do to a game, players still are upset because they keep playing her casually in their angel deck. It's almost like she is a card that is a trap, unlike Armageddon, for example.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
There is always someone who want to use the broken card for the easy win and finally games are over can't get over it and work a little to find a new broken toy.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
If someone was able to achieve that, it seems like an epic & memorable play. It's also imminently stoppable. And if you do it once, the salt-level would probably get you hated out of doing anything for the rest of the day.
If someone won with a Craterhoof (btw, winning a game is more productive and actually easier than stopping others from winning the game), the salt-level is no where near the same as with the Iona scenario. And even if you did it again and again, what are your opponents going to do about it? Countering ETB's is tougher than removing a creature.
The Problem i saw with PE was that if you had a somewhat heavy artifact deck you should have PE. It almost didnt matter what the deck did as long as you had a good amount of artifacts it was a must add and made the deck a lot better, with some minor tweaks can make it game ending.
Iona is different though. she is not played in every single white deck. The decks she is mostly found in are Angle theme (have lots of other big angle threats), stasis/broad control (she will not be the only thing locking people down), GY rez decks (lots of other juicy targets). The point is yes she is strong but she mostly just a piece to something bigger and unless 1v1 is not game winning at 9 mana. There are a bunch of other cards that you can ramp into or cheat into play that will just flat out win the game or knock someone out right away, but preventing a color from playing is too much? I have seen games where a player gets knocked out of the game very early and has to wait a long time just for the others to finish. At least with Iona IF the user was mono color you have other players to help, deals to be made and still have options of colorless tech.
Speaking of colorless tech one big thing i like about commander is that your deck is never finished and it changes depending on your meta. you play, change and adapt to type of decks you play against. If i have a mono color deck im going to pack in a few things in colorless to help with my short commings, and if Iona is in my meta id probably add colorless removal. If your play group keeps on complaining about certain decks or cards and then continue to do nothing about it, that's on them (granted if the overall power level of your deck does not match your meta then thats on you. Dont bring competitive decks to causal tables). Even If they dont draw the needed cards and is locked down there is nothing preventing them from table talking to get help or setup an alliance to destroy Iona and even that player.
Banning a card because its not fun, i get it. but then you might as well ban any and all stax effects and mass LD. Because I dont get to play when people play that way. Combo's should be ban too because i didnt get to play or do much before they combo off and im not playing blue so i cant counter. Play more removal/answers you say? well, isn't that the answer to most treats, including Iona?
There are a lot of other things that can be said about why a card should/should not be banned, but Iona to me is just a creature that will most likly die from the next board-wipe that's commonly played in this format.
as far as PS goes, I have looked at PS before but mostly ignored because it was banned so im not sure what it can fully do, but one thing about it is that its not going to be played in every single deck, and the decks it is played in will most likely been seen as any other combo piece and be treated that way by the others and if not removed right away/shortly will either combo off or be removed by a board-wipe.
-because Iona can disproportionately effect one player more than another, it can lock one player out completely, while doing absolutely nothing to another player - thus providing an incentive for the unaffected player to keep it alive, up to countering removal aimed at it, even if they aren't the controller. Most stax cards effect all enemy players in at least reasonably equal ways, and so they don't generally create this dynamic.
-because Iona is a big dumb creature, she gets put into decks and metas that wouldn't consider playing something like, say, stasis. cEDH gonna cEDH, they can have their efficient stax pieces that only exist to do stax things. Iona isn't a cEDH stax card though - she looks like a casual card but plays like a stax card. So she inserts stax into metas that otherwise wouldn't be playing it.
I like to read how other people build their versions of my favorite commanders, and I certainly got sick of seeing Paradox Engine as the go-to and build-around card in almost all of those decks.
Mizzix of the Paradox Engine.
Breya, Paradox Engine Shaper.
Inalla, Paradox Engine Ritualist.
Roon of the Hidden Paradox Engine.
Okay, we get it, the card is good, but maybe we can get back to those deck following their central theme instead of being PE clones?
I think the role of the ban list is to stop people from "accidentally" making a bad gameplay experience, doing it deliberately is pretty much impossible to stop.
If you are playing with Iona in your deck even in a silly angels deck you can just accidentally lock a player out of the game and it sucks for that one player. I think to break Painter you have to work for it, it has a lot more upside for doing fun things so I think it is a net positive... hopefully.
Paradox engine was laughably easy to combo within pretty much any deck with a few mana rocks, it really was having a Prophet of Kruphix effect it wasn't the worst card in commander for degeneracy just that you could shove it into anything and it would become degenerate.
Personally, I still want Cyclonic Rift banned its just such a catch-all groaner that's hard to stop form having a big impact, I am just super sick of it.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
My meta is like 30 people. If you get knocked out early, you can find other people to play with. Not a big problem. But I'm supposed to tailor my decks to 30-odd people playing hundreds of different decks of wildly different power levels?
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
What you mentioned with other people not being affected or just lightly affected and protecting Iona by spending resources is actually great. Is *****ty for the one player but great in a political/multiplayer way. If they keep spending resources in a card that they are not even controlling just to lock the mono-color player, than maybe that player has done something wrong or was leading anyways. I mean look yes she can be odd in some games but there are cards that do this for every player and they are legal. Color hate, stax cards etc. for far less mana. And painter open up combos much more disgusting that Iona could ever be.
So if someone has a stasis/orb lock online everything is okay because he wins the game and the other 3 player can give up because they can do nothing. But if a mono-color player get locked by an Iona than everything is miserable because he has to sit there and do nothing? Where is the different for you to be defeated early in the game or be locked?
And no you don't have to tailor your decks to 30-odd people but you can prepare yourself for the one hate card out there that seemly is destroying your day/fun.
But well this discussion won't change any opinions. She is banned now and will disappear in my binder.
While nothing will ever be funnier than the discussion regarding sylvan primordial, this is getting pretty fun too.
Iona lovers, i'm pretty sure your friends will still let you run her, since she's such a fun and fair card, no one will have a problem with that, right?
I think this is the important point that too many people seem not to get. The banlist philosophy is pretty straightforward.
If you want to do broken and unpleasant stuff, they cannot stop you. There are too many powerful cards, and there is no way to police all of them without making the banlist 10 times the size it currently is.
Primeval Titan is banned. Hermit Druid is not.
You can do much more broken things with the druid than with the titan - not close.
But unless your trying to do (and set up for) broken things, the druid is innocuous and tends not to be anything other than a nice card.
The titan, on the other hand, changes/warps/wrecks the game regardless of whether you try and set up silly things or just love his value.
If you want to watch the world burn, the rules committee cannot stop you. Their goal seems to be to remove the most common causes of accidental fires, and it seems to be working well.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Iona yea she was a good decision to ban mono color decks I just rising up in popularity and it just hoses mono decks instantly when she pops out
Now as for painter risky and not to bad of a decision at the same time I mean we know instant wins with painter exist that are not banned the most known is grindstone and hoser of specific cards could rise up better with it unbanned too and Iona was the biggest reason of its banning to begin with
The difference between Iona and, say, stasis, is that (1) iona needs no effort to break the symmetry, and more importantly (2) Iona is a big sweet-looking angel that casuals will actually want to put in their decks. Casuals aren't lining up to put winter orb in their decks because they'll have to build around it, and because it's not very "fun". Iona looks like she might be fun but is, in fact, not.
That's the argument the RC uses, as well as I can recite it. You're free to disagree with the way they ban cards, but that's how they go about doing it. By their criteria, Iona is definitely more deserving of banning that stasis.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Awesome, then they made the right call, since this is a casual format.
Good thing mana rocks are niche cards that barely see play.
Then cEDH players can ignore the ban and keep playing it.
How can a "not a problem" card create more of a problem for a combo that is way faster? Given the choice of playing a deck that's not a problem and one that is, shouldn't the default be to play the latter?
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
She's a card that locks out monocolor decks. Colorless solutions are mostly on very bad rate. It's not the same as packing graveyard answers, for example, those are basically always vastly more efficient than what's necessiated to remove the angel. In addition, it requires a singular removal piece in a 100 card deck, intended for a particular card whose problems aren't truly mirrored in other cards.
For example, graveyard removal is always worth it to include a few effective pieces of. Same with artifact and enchantment removal. How many cards require similar removal to Iona, really? In a monocolor deck? There are plenty of impossibly resilient threats that you can try and race, for example. Iona is just a singular piece of frustration that either warps deckbuilding or ruins the games played.
No, I haven't seen her much. But it's because the people I play with remove her after trying her out. Because she ruins the games.
And yet despite the number of people who have stopped playing her because of what she can do to a game, players still are upset because they keep playing her casually in their angel deck. It's almost like she is a card that is a trap, unlike Armageddon, for example.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Duskmantle/Mindcrank been around for years too.
I really think people are confused if they think this combo is anything but hot garbage ready to get blown out by Volrath's Stronghold and Academy Ruins over and over again.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Iona, on the other hand, is very up front about what she does. Even the Timmiest Timmy runs her to kick the mono colored decks in the groin. It's also not like Armageddon; land destruction is often followed by "now what?" Iona's "now what?" is beats.
Of course there's a lot of people who justifiably don't want to worry about Iona showing up at the table. I don't blame them. But it's not a trap, it's not an accident, and treating it as such masks what it does. It's a hard control option on a stick, not a mythical Timmy-tricking boogeyman.
I dont think this is true. Many people play multicolors, and big costly angels seem cool and fun. Maybe after it ruins a few games people come around, but I can see for sure why new folks think it looks cool.
In my experience, the Timmy use is to runnit as blue protection in your jank deck. Only sometimes the best line of play I'd to name a different color that hits more players. Or maybe it's just to lock that one person out who is ahead. And you know what happens when one person is handicapped in the game and the other opponents aren't? "Phew, good thing that card doesn't affect me and I don't have to expend resources dealing with it!"
So yeah, it's a trap card, because the target audience isn't intentionally playing a prison deck, any more than they were playing MLD but still wanted to use Sundering Titam in order to keep ramp in check.
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
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Lol
people defended primeval titan
people defended sylvan primordial
people defended prophet of kruphix
There is always someone who want to use the broken card for the easy win and finally games are over can't get over it and work a little to find a new broken toy.
To be fair, there's a fair argument that Helm of the Host + Iona, Shield of Emeria is fun and games in and of itself.
If someone was able to achieve that, it seems like an epic & memorable play. It's also imminently stoppable. And if you do it once, the salt-level would probably get you hated out of doing anything for the rest of the day.
If someone won with a Craterhoof (btw, winning a game is more productive and actually easier than stopping others from winning the game), the salt-level is no where near the same as with the Iona scenario. And even if you did it again and again, what are your opponents going to do about it? Countering ETB's is tougher than removing a creature.
Iona is different though. she is not played in every single white deck. The decks she is mostly found in are Angle theme (have lots of other big angle threats), stasis/broad control (she will not be the only thing locking people down), GY rez decks (lots of other juicy targets). The point is yes she is strong but she mostly just a piece to something bigger and unless 1v1 is not game winning at 9 mana. There are a bunch of other cards that you can ramp into or cheat into play that will just flat out win the game or knock someone out right away, but preventing a color from playing is too much? I have seen games where a player gets knocked out of the game very early and has to wait a long time just for the others to finish. At least with Iona IF the user was mono color you have other players to help, deals to be made and still have options of colorless tech.
Speaking of colorless tech one big thing i like about commander is that your deck is never finished and it changes depending on your meta. you play, change and adapt to type of decks you play against. If i have a mono color deck im going to pack in a few things in colorless to help with my short commings, and if Iona is in my meta id probably add colorless removal. If your play group keeps on complaining about certain decks or cards and then continue to do nothing about it, that's on them (granted if the overall power level of your deck does not match your meta then thats on you. Dont bring competitive decks to causal tables). Even If they dont draw the needed cards and is locked down there is nothing preventing them from table talking to get help or setup an alliance to destroy Iona and even that player.
Banning a card because its not fun, i get it. but then you might as well ban any and all stax effects and mass LD. Because I dont get to play when people play that way. Combo's should be ban too because i didnt get to play or do much before they combo off and im not playing blue so i cant counter. Play more removal/answers you say? well, isn't that the answer to most treats, including Iona?
There are a lot of other things that can be said about why a card should/should not be banned, but Iona to me is just a creature that will most likly die from the next board-wipe that's commonly played in this format.
as far as PS goes, I have looked at PS before but mostly ignored because it was banned so im not sure what it can fully do, but one thing about it is that its not going to be played in every single deck, and the decks it is played in will most likely been seen as any other combo piece and be treated that way by the others and if not removed right away/shortly will either combo off or be removed by a board-wipe.
-because Iona can disproportionately effect one player more than another, it can lock one player out completely, while doing absolutely nothing to another player - thus providing an incentive for the unaffected player to keep it alive, up to countering removal aimed at it, even if they aren't the controller. Most stax cards effect all enemy players in at least reasonably equal ways, and so they don't generally create this dynamic.
-because Iona is a big dumb creature, she gets put into decks and metas that wouldn't consider playing something like, say, stasis. cEDH gonna cEDH, they can have their efficient stax pieces that only exist to do stax things. Iona isn't a cEDH stax card though - she looks like a casual card but plays like a stax card. So she inserts stax into metas that otherwise wouldn't be playing it.
That's why she's banned.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6