CARDS
Paradox Engine is banned
Iona, Shield of Emeria is banned
Painter’s Servant is unbanned
RULES
No changes.
The Philosophy Document update coalesces the important elements of how we think about the format into a concise and easily-digestible set of ideals, answering the question “what is Commander?” We haven’t changed the underlying philosophy of Commander: it’s specifically intended to be something other than a tournament format in which players consider each other’s experiences alongside their own. You’ll notice that we’ve eliminated categories for banning cards. We’d found that many folks misinterpreted them as hard criteria for banning as opposed the guidelines we always considered them. There might be some common threads among banned cards, but the primary reason cards get put on the list is that they challenge the positive experience we want to promote.
Paradox Engine is a card that has proven to be intensely problematic. Not only does it provide easy wins seemingly out of nowhere, it has demonstrated the potential to unintentionally wreck games. Easily inserted into any deck, it combines with cards which players already have heavy incentives to play, generating a great deal of mana with virtually no deck building cost. While we don’t ban cards which are only problematic if you build around them, Paradox Engine has clearly demonstrated that it doesn’t need to be built around to be broken.
Iona, Shield of Emeria creates a negative experience for many players without the benefit of a positive application. We had previously considered its high mana cost sufficient to keep it from getting played, but deeper investigation demonstrated many ways of getting it onto the battlefield without paying that cost. Iona, Shield of Emeria is also an exemplar as the type of card which creates an experience we wish to discourage, namely shutting players out of games.
Painter’s Servant is a card that’s been discussed for a long time and it’s time to take off the shackles. We feel as though there are now more weird and fun uses for the card than there are dangerous ones. The card will provide deck builders with some additional paths to explore in expressing their creativity.
Many thanks to the Commander Advisory Group for the input and insights into putting together this update. Their presence continues to add great value to the format.
I feel it's equally important for everyone to read the new philosophy document as well as take in the new bans, so please give it a read once the mtgcommander.net site gets back up.
That said, I'm happy to answer questions anyone might have about the announcement, so hmu.
I feel it's equally important for everyone to read the new philosophy document as well as take in the new bans, so please give it a read once the mtgcommander.net site gets back up.
That said, I'm happy to answer questions anyone might have about the announcement, so hmu.
Hey Charlotte - how influential was the CAG in these three bannings?
Do you believe the banning of Paradox Engine 'because it seemingly wins out of nowhere' is consistent with previous bannings or if it is an indication of a newer philosophy?
I think many saw the paradox ban coming before it was even released.
It felt like it could have been printed back in Legends and would have been banned alongside Fastbond.
I do like how the ban change to Iona and Painter's Servant coincide directly as to break up any combo, both legal together is multiple times worse than Iona alone.
Color-nonsense is a theme which needs everything it can get, this kind of change is welcome for both what is lessened and is gained.
Wow. Banning Paradox Engine, that requires alot of setup to actually go nuts, but keeping various A+B Combos in the Format. I seriously don't get Sheldon. I think both bans are utter nonsense.
Hey Charlotte - how influential was the CAG in these three bannings?
Do you believe the banning of Paradox Engine 'because it seemingly wins out of nowhere' is consistent with previous bannings or if it is an indication of a newer philosophy?
To be clear, the CAG doesn't actually get to vote to ban or unban cards. That's the RC's job. We just advise them with our opinions on cards and other rules changes. I feel like Iona's banning was a very CAG-led one as it's not a prominent card but one that does cause a lot of bad feels. PE was a pretty unanimous banning. Painter's Servant had much more support in the CAG than in the RC initially, but I think the update to the philosophy document really led to a re-examination of its reasons for banning and its eventual freeing.
Paradox Engine wasn't banned JUST because it can win out of nowhere. It was banned because the cards that it combos with, particularly mana rocks or mana dorks, already see heavy play in a majority of decks and so there's no cost to including it. Also, PE can just go off with one or two mana rocks without really trying.
Its worth mentioning that some of the problem of Paradox Engine is that it is colorless which means that the places it can be played are far more widespread. Given we just came out with the new Urza it seems like we constantly get commanders who can break the card in half. If Paradox Engine had a color or colors it might not have been as big of an issue.
Paradox Engine also doesn't seem like it has a purpose outside of going off infinite or close to it. Thats just what the card is intended to do.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Wow. Banning Paradox Engine, that requires alot of setup to actually go nuts, but keeping various A+B Combos in the Format. I seriously don't get Sheldon. I think both bans are utter nonsense.
That's what I was thinking - Paradox Engine requires so much outside the box thinking to work. You'd need to be playing it in a deck that ramps, for example. Given that high cost of inclusion, the ban caught me off guard as well. Now that Paradox Engine is banned, there's really no point in playing cards like Sol Ring or Birds of Paradise anymore, which'll please the folks who don't like fast mana.
That's what I was thinking - Paradox Engine requires so much outside the box thinking to work. You'd need to be playing it in a deck that ramps, for example. Given that high cost of inclusion, the ban caught me off guard as well. Now that Paradox Engine is banned, there's really no point in playing cards like Sol Ring or Birds of Paradise anymore, which'll please the folks who don't like fast mana.
That's what I was thinking - Paradox Engine requires so much outside the box thinking to work. You'd need to be playing it in a deck that ramps, for example. Given that high cost of inclusion, the ban caught me off guard as well. Now that Paradox Engine is banned, there's really no point in playing cards like Sol Ring or Birds of Paradise anymore, which'll please the folks who don't like fast mana.
I don't see it that way. It requires a deck that runs mana-artifacts. I generally tend to stay truer to land ramp, (since artifacts are sometime collateral damage), but many non-green decks will run at least a handful of artifact ramp.
From there, it's not hard to see how any sort of tap ability, especially if your Commander has a tap ability, could lead to a powerful amount of value.
I love how this basically reads as "it took us over a decade to realize how easy it was to cheat Iona into play."
She was long, long overdue for a ban and if her high cmc was seriously the only thing stopping her from getting axed for all this time I really have to question how much they really know about the game outside their bubble.
That's what I was thinking - Paradox Engine requires so much outside the box thinking to work. You'd need to be playing it in a deck that ramps, for example. Given that high cost of inclusion, the ban caught me off guard as well. Now that Paradox Engine is banned, there's really no point in playing cards like Sol Ring or Birds of Paradise anymore, which'll please the folks who don't like fast mana.
I don't see it that way. It requires a deck that runs mana-artifacts. I generally tend to stay truer to land ramp, (since artifacts are sometime collateral damage), but many non-green decks will run at least a handful of artifact ramp.
From there, it's not hard to see how any sort of tap ability, especially if your Commander has a tap ability, could lead to a powerful amount of value.
The comment you’re replying to was 100% sarcasm.
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Painter’s servant unbanning made me believe this banlist update was a hoax.
That card is extremely broken!
It creates a turn 2 remove a player from the game, in colourless.
I believe it will be rebanned very soon.
Or at least have the pieces it brakes banned.
The banning of iona, shield of Emeria is long over due, as it has had a negative impact on edh of a decade.
The banning of paradox engine I have mixed opinions about.
I see and understand why it was banned, but though testing I’ve done, and the many many games I’ve watched with it in.
It always requires a decent amount of set up. Giving opportunity for opponents to counter act it.
Stony silence type effects prevent it use with mana rocks on turn 2 well before most deck play paradox engine.
I see it being unbanned at some point in next year or it banning being ignored as 25% of the deck in edh run it.
I guess the combo of PS and grindstone wasn't a concern as much as it used to be with the new philosophy document.
I haven't had a chance to look at the document but I would guess to some degree the same reason that Hermit Druid never got the axe (it has ways to play it fairly) is perhaps the same reason it came off the list. There are a good number of cool and niche uses for painters servant like say Oona, Teysa, or Blind Seer where it isn't a card that needs to be banned.
This is purely a guess though, I have not gotten a chance to read the new updated policy.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I'm surprised but not disappointed with the PE ban. I mentioned in the thread that I was beginning to feel as if a ban was inevitable as more cards that had broken interactions with it kept being printed (like Urza) but that I wasn't sure if it was there yet. Perhaps it was, or perhaps the inevitability of it getting there was enough.
The Iona/Painter switch was one of the few things I've thought was clearly in need of a change, and it's nice to see it's been made.
I'll be digging into the philosophy document later. While I'm sad to see the categories go, because I thought they provided some valuable insight into the thought process used when deciding whether cards where problematic enough to be banned, I agree that people sometimes missed the nuances, and missed the forest through the trees (that the categories meant nothing by themselves, but where ways that cards went against the RC's vision for what kind of experience people should have with EDH)
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Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
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That's exciting! I don't know about Paradox Engine ban because I think by now anyone playing it knows what they"re doing and the combos have ceased to be accidental, but it is I guess not an easy card to use fairly because you have to cut yourself off of mana rocks and card draw on purpose.
I love the Painter's Servant unban. That card is an excellent example of the opposite of Paradox Engine, it's very easy to avoid playing the cards that make it feel bad in your own deck if you're not trying to be that person.
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So happy that Iona has finally been banned. I've wanted that for years. I have never seen a game that improved when she hit the table - only seen feel bads, usually from multiple players.
I love Painter's Servant but wish I still had a copy, given that the price just sky-rocketed. I ran that in my very first EDH deck, ten years ago.
I'm glad that the Engine is banned. Unlike the Bolas's Citadel/Aetherflux Reservoir combination that is two cards and black heavy, the Engine is colorless and can virtually go into any EDH deck with mana rocks, especially the spellslinging type of deck that has a lot of small spells and LOTS of ramp, the type of deck that would go infinite/storm easily with mana being the restriction in the past.
Yes, there is absolutely no reason to get an extra one to two mana at all *rolls eyes*
Genius post. Do people think you believe that an extra one or two mana is all you get from Paradox Engine? Do they assume you're being sarcastic towards folks who don't support the banning of Paradox Engine? Do they know your post was made as a reply to mine? Did you take it literally-- ostensibly regarding my comment about Sol Ring and Birds? Were you just playing along? The people need to know.
I love the salt coming from r/MTGfinance for example
"I think PE should be banned, that being said, I don't think Sheldon should be the final say on bans anymore but I also think the ban list should be binding and not a suggestion.
I don't know what the right answer is but it def feels bad having a singular PLAYER be able to cut or add millions of dollars from/to magic collections world wide with a tweet."
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That said, I'm happy to answer questions anyone might have about the announcement, so hmu.
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Do you believe the banning of Paradox Engine 'because it seemingly wins out of nowhere' is consistent with previous bannings or if it is an indication of a newer philosophy?
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It felt like it could have been printed back in Legends and would have been banned alongside Fastbond.
I do like how the ban change to Iona and Painter's Servant coincide directly as to break up any combo, both legal together is multiple times worse than Iona alone.
Color-nonsense is a theme which needs everything it can get, this kind of change is welcome for both what is lessened and is gained.
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To be clear, the CAG doesn't actually get to vote to ban or unban cards. That's the RC's job. We just advise them with our opinions on cards and other rules changes. I feel like Iona's banning was a very CAG-led one as it's not a prominent card but one that does cause a lot of bad feels. PE was a pretty unanimous banning. Painter's Servant had much more support in the CAG than in the RC initially, but I think the update to the philosophy document really led to a re-examination of its reasons for banning and its eventual freeing.
Paradox Engine wasn't banned JUST because it can win out of nowhere. It was banned because the cards that it combos with, particularly mana rocks or mana dorks, already see heavy play in a majority of decks and so there's no cost to including it. Also, PE can just go off with one or two mana rocks without really trying.
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Paradox Engine also doesn't seem like it has a purpose outside of going off infinite or close to it. Thats just what the card is intended to do.
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That's what I was thinking - Paradox Engine requires so much outside the box thinking to work. You'd need to be playing it in a deck that ramps, for example. Given that high cost of inclusion, the ban caught me off guard as well. Now that Paradox Engine is banned, there's really no point in playing cards like Sol Ring or Birds of Paradise anymore, which'll please the folks who don't like fast mana.
Well done, sir.
From there, it's not hard to see how any sort of tap ability, especially if your Commander has a tap ability, could lead to a powerful amount of value.
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She was long, long overdue for a ban and if her high cmc was seriously the only thing stopping her from getting axed for all this time I really have to question how much they really know about the game outside their bubble.
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The comment you’re replying to was 100% sarcasm.
That card is extremely broken!
It creates a turn 2 remove a player from the game, in colourless.
I believe it will be rebanned very soon.
Or at least have the pieces it brakes banned.
The banning of iona, shield of Emeria is long over due, as it has had a negative impact on edh of a decade.
The banning of paradox engine I have mixed opinions about.
I see and understand why it was banned, but though testing I’ve done, and the many many games I’ve watched with it in.
It always requires a decent amount of set up. Giving opportunity for opponents to counter act it.
Stony silence type effects prevent it use with mana rocks on turn 2 well before most deck play paradox engine.
I see it being unbanned at some point in next year or it banning being ignored as 25% of the deck in edh run it.
I haven't had a chance to look at the document but I would guess to some degree the same reason that Hermit Druid never got the axe (it has ways to play it fairly) is perhaps the same reason it came off the list. There are a good number of cool and niche uses for painters servant like say Oona, Teysa, or Blind Seer where it isn't a card that needs to be banned.
This is purely a guess though, I have not gotten a chance to read the new updated policy.
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The Iona/Painter switch was one of the few things I've thought was clearly in need of a change, and it's nice to see it's been made.
I'll be digging into the philosophy document later. While I'm sad to see the categories go, because I thought they provided some valuable insight into the thought process used when deciding whether cards where problematic enough to be banned, I agree that people sometimes missed the nuances, and missed the forest through the trees (that the categories meant nothing by themselves, but where ways that cards went against the RC's vision for what kind of experience people should have with EDH)
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I love the Painter's Servant unban. That card is an excellent example of the opposite of Paradox Engine, it's very easy to avoid playing the cards that make it feel bad in your own deck if you're not trying to be that person.
I love Painter's Servant but wish I still had a copy, given that the price just sky-rocketed. I ran that in my very first EDH deck, ten years ago.
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Iona is pure suppression, don't need her ever.
Painter could be dangerous though.
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Genius post. Do people think you believe that an extra one or two mana is all you get from Paradox Engine? Do they assume you're being sarcastic towards folks who don't support the banning of Paradox Engine? Do they know your post was made as a reply to mine? Did you take it literally-- ostensibly regarding my comment about Sol Ring and Birds? Were you just playing along? The people need to know.
"I think PE should be banned, that being said, I don't think Sheldon should be the final say on bans anymore but I also think the ban list should be binding and not a suggestion.
I don't know what the right answer is but it def feels bad having a singular PLAYER be able to cut or add millions of dollars from/to magic collections world wide with a tweet."