If anyone is familiar with Mark Rosewater's podcast that is the title of the podcast I would be referring to. There was a particular topic that I was not a fan of, that idea of "banning cards because they don't let people play the game" and they use Narset, Parter of Veils as an example. I personally think these regulators are important for the health of the game and that every type of card should have an answer. What does everyone else think?
Stax cards are cards that more people should play. There is just too much stupid ***** that needs answering and running a couple single target removals just won't cut it.
I am not sure what Maro podcast you are referring to - there was a stream, and they mentioned Narset as a card to watch but they each felt like it was fine since it was not in the command zone.
Cards that don't let people play the game have been banned when they are in the command zone. Leovold and Braids, for example. I like both cards but I see why they are both brutal when you can build a deck around them.
However, you don't have to consider hypothetical, made-up cards. Just take a look at Narset, Parter of Veils. It's a lock piece that is ALSO asymmetric and Impulse x 2. Here's the kicker, it's a planeswalker. Unlike an enchantment or artifact hate piece or a creature hate-bear, there is no efficient removal for them other than attacking.
I'm not calling for a ban. But perhaps you need to provide a more critical analysis of why Narset was discussed.
However, you don't have to consider hypothetical, made-up cards. Just take a look at Narset, Parter of Veils. It's a lock piece that is ALSO asymmetric and Impulse x 2. Here's the kicker, it's a planeswalker. Unlike an enchantment or artifact hate piece or a creature hate-bear, there is no efficient removal for them other than attacking.
I'm not calling for a ban. But perhaps you need to provide a more critical analysis of why Narset was discussed.
I think you misspoke.
Unlike artifacts and enchantments, you can attack Planeswalkers.
There. Unless we are putting her in the command zone you just need creatures in order to take advantage.
Notion Thief has been around a long time never considered for banning, and it is way more versatile. Why is not worth banning? Because it is not a commander.
Stax cards are cards that more people should play. There is just too much stupid ***** that needs answering and running a couple single target removals just won't cut it.
The problem with that line of thinking is specifically that stax does not target. You can't get help dealing with someone if your allies are taxed out of most things.
If everyone is playing some removal, threats get dealt with. If you play stax everyone suffers, and the person who needs dealing with is the stax player.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Unlike an enchantment or artifact hate piece or a creature hate-bear, there is no efficient removal for them other than attacking
uwotm8? There's tons of efficient removal for planeswalkers and it's not even limited to cards that say "destroy target planeswalker'. Smh. Just wut, I can't even with this narrow line of thought.
Unlike artifacts and enchantments, you can attack Planeswalkers.
Notion Thief has been around a long time never considered for banning, and it is way more versatile. Why is not worth banning? Because it is not a commander.
I didn't misspeak. You can attack my PW's, but I can block.
You want to destroy my Winter Orb lock piece with Fragmentize? Well, I cannot block. I have to counter it to stop you, so either I have to be playing blue or just move on.
You want to destroy my PW lock piece? Well, PW specific removal isn't nearly good enough to run often so you're probably attacking. But I don't have to play Blue to block. Whereas I had to play Blue to protect an artifact/enchantment or play more pieces to protect each other, I can play any color and protect my PW's from the most common form of destruction. Or I can just interact with your easily interacted-with creatures to protect my PW's.
Which is why PW's as lock pieces are extremely dangerous. I hope War of the Spark is just an aberration. If enough PW's with static abilities start to imitate stax pieces (and do so asymmetrically ala Karn & Narset), that'll just be crazy. It's almost unbelievable how they lock out and at the same time provide value. Something that stax pieces just shouldn't be able to do.
It's more nuanced than just "attack the PW." If a stax player can diversify lock pieces by type, it changes the game. Just look to how Karn & Narset are completely changing Vintage/Legacy/Modern to see how good they are.
Notion Thief, it's not a problem card. But I'd say that it's an extremely fragile creature. Look, I'm not advocating for a Narset ban. I actually like playing against stax. I just wanted to address the OP's limited analysis of Narset and reply to his "what does everyone else think" prompt.
uwotm8? There's tons of efficient removal for planeswalkers and it's not even limited to cards that say "destroy target planeswalker'. Smh. Just wut, I can't even with this narrow line of thought.
Sure, there is Assassin's Trophy. But many cards that say "destroy target planeswalker" are not efficient. You just cannot show that they are anywhere near the efficiency of creature/artifact/enchantment removal. That's just a function of planeswalkers not existing for the first 75% of magic.
I'm not proposing banning any card, so don't let that color your response.
Sure, there is Assassin's Trophy. But many cards that say "destroy target planeswalker" are not efficient. You just cannot show that they are anywhere near the efficiency of creature/artifact/enchantment removal. That's just a function of planeswalkers not existing for the first 75% of magic.
I'm not proposing banning any card, so don't let that color your response.
Even ignoring combat, Narset goes to 3 on the first activation... Lightning Bolt?
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I agree about Lightning Bolt. I mean, the best strategy to combat being locked out is to win-faster or have good, appropriate low-cmc answers.
However, I just don't feel that population who complain about stax pieces and people who actually want to play Lightning Bolt overlap.
My point about Narset is just that in the grand scheme of how many decks get built:
1.) Narset + Wheel of Fortune played back to back
2.) Leovold + Wheel of Fortune played back to back
I believe that #2 would be easier for decks to interact against.
I agree about Lightning Bolt. I mean, the best strategy to combat being locked out is to win-faster or have good, appropriate low-cmc answers.
However, I just don't feel that population who complain about stax pieces and people who actually want to play Lightning Bolt overlap.
My point about Narset is just that in the grand scheme of how many decks get built:
1.) Narset + Wheel of Fortune played back to back
2.) Leovold + Wheel of Fortune played back to back
I believe that #2 would be easier for decks to interact against.
I'm not sure people who don't want to play "good, appropriate low-cmc answers" as you very accurately described them, deserve to be factored into complaints about the cards they actively choose to be helpless against. Is a card oppressive against people who are willing to try? Those are the cards to worry about. If I ever complained about artifacts and enchantments as a mono black EDH guy who actively opts against the off-pie artifact removal or generic artifact-based artifact and enchantment removal, I would hope nobody would give me any attention. My choice not to run appropriate answers doesn't make threats more worthy of consideration. I see it fairly often that people shouldn't have to run answers, and they're free to make that choice, but they can't be free from the consequences. Now, cards that can be commanders clearly aught to be held to a different standard, because not even I would advocate that decks run nothing but efficient answers for a threat that can't go away.
I think it’s unfair to compare PWs to artifacts; we should be considering them more like enchantments you can attack. Modern artifacts have to be activated anyways, and only enchantments have static abilities.
If anything, these PWs are more like ‘fixed’ enchantments, allowing black and red to answer them (by attacking). I have a narset oathbreaker deck, and I gotta say, she’s as opporessive as she is fragile. You can’t land her on a busy board, and you certainly can’t get people to ignore her (especially when I threaten to transmute artifact into puzzle box or something).
I should find that podcast to listen to though. I suspect that the perspective that it aucks fun out of games applies only to lesser enfranchised players. I’m kinda into legacy, and though it’s annoying, decks like stax and prison decks are super fun to play against. But that’s cuz I expect them. In edh, I end up taking my staxy decks apart after a while. It’s not that they’re no fun, it’s that my friends never see it coming (even though I tell them how to fight stax). Sometimes, the meta doesn’t want to shift the way that you want it to, and that’s ok.
One thing I will say though is that playing in a tryhard format like legacy makes you hardier to stuff like this, and forces you to accept/respect other people’s strategies for the game. I feel like sometimes, edh is too insular and spoon-feeds players into thinking a sort of ‘this is what my group owes ne’ Mentality, and not a ‘what can I provide to the group’ mentality.
Cards that don't let people play the game have been banned when they are in the command zone. Leovold and Braids, for example. I like both cards but I see why they are both brutal when you can build a deck around them.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I mean, what if Winter Orb and Howling Mine were combined into the same card at 3?
However, you don't have to consider hypothetical, made-up cards. Just take a look at Narset, Parter of Veils. It's a lock piece that is ALSO asymmetric and Impulse x 2. Here's the kicker, it's a planeswalker. Unlike an enchantment or artifact hate piece or a creature hate-bear, there is no efficient removal for them other than attacking.
I'm not calling for a ban. But perhaps you need to provide a more critical analysis of why Narset was discussed.
I think you misspoke.
Unlike artifacts and enchantments, you can attack Planeswalkers.
There. Unless we are putting her in the command zone you just need creatures in order to take advantage.
Notion Thief has been around a long time never considered for banning, and it is way more versatile. Why is not worth banning? Because it is not a commander.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
If everyone is playing some removal, threats get dealt with. If you play stax everyone suffers, and the person who needs dealing with is the stax player.
uwotm8? There's tons of efficient removal for planeswalkers and it's not even limited to cards that say "destroy target planeswalker'. Smh. Just wut, I can't even with this narrow line of thought.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I didn't misspeak. You can attack my PW's, but I can block.
You want to destroy my Winter Orb lock piece with Fragmentize? Well, I cannot block. I have to counter it to stop you, so either I have to be playing blue or just move on.
You want to destroy my PW lock piece? Well, PW specific removal isn't nearly good enough to run often so you're probably attacking. But I don't have to play Blue to block. Whereas I had to play Blue to protect an artifact/enchantment or play more pieces to protect each other, I can play any color and protect my PW's from the most common form of destruction. Or I can just interact with your easily interacted-with creatures to protect my PW's.
Which is why PW's as lock pieces are extremely dangerous. I hope War of the Spark is just an aberration. If enough PW's with static abilities start to imitate stax pieces (and do so asymmetrically ala Karn & Narset), that'll just be crazy. It's almost unbelievable how they lock out and at the same time provide value. Something that stax pieces just shouldn't be able to do.
It's more nuanced than just "attack the PW." If a stax player can diversify lock pieces by type, it changes the game. Just look to how Karn & Narset are completely changing Vintage/Legacy/Modern to see how good they are.
Notion Thief, it's not a problem card. But I'd say that it's an extremely fragile creature. Look, I'm not advocating for a Narset ban. I actually like playing against stax. I just wanted to address the OP's limited analysis of Narset and reply to his "what does everyone else think" prompt.
Sure, there is Assassin's Trophy. But many cards that say "destroy target planeswalker" are not efficient. You just cannot show that they are anywhere near the efficiency of creature/artifact/enchantment removal. That's just a function of planeswalkers not existing for the first 75% of magic.
I'm not proposing banning any card, so don't let that color your response.
Even ignoring combat, Narset goes to 3 on the first activation... Lightning Bolt?
However, I just don't feel that population who complain about stax pieces and people who actually want to play Lightning Bolt overlap.
My point about Narset is just that in the grand scheme of how many decks get built:
1.) Narset + Wheel of Fortune played back to back
2.) Leovold + Wheel of Fortune played back to back
I believe that #2 would be easier for decks to interact against.
I'm not sure people who don't want to play "good, appropriate low-cmc answers" as you very accurately described them, deserve to be factored into complaints about the cards they actively choose to be helpless against. Is a card oppressive against people who are willing to try? Those are the cards to worry about. If I ever complained about artifacts and enchantments as a mono black EDH guy who actively opts against the off-pie artifact removal or generic artifact-based artifact and enchantment removal, I would hope nobody would give me any attention. My choice not to run appropriate answers doesn't make threats more worthy of consideration. I see it fairly often that people shouldn't have to run answers, and they're free to make that choice, but they can't be free from the consequences. Now, cards that can be commanders clearly aught to be held to a different standard, because not even I would advocate that decks run nothing but efficient answers for a threat that can't go away.
If anything, these PWs are more like ‘fixed’ enchantments, allowing black and red to answer them (by attacking). I have a narset oathbreaker deck, and I gotta say, she’s as opporessive as she is fragile. You can’t land her on a busy board, and you certainly can’t get people to ignore her (especially when I threaten to transmute artifact into puzzle box or something).
I should find that podcast to listen to though. I suspect that the perspective that it aucks fun out of games applies only to lesser enfranchised players. I’m kinda into legacy, and though it’s annoying, decks like stax and prison decks are super fun to play against. But that’s cuz I expect them. In edh, I end up taking my staxy decks apart after a while. It’s not that they’re no fun, it’s that my friends never see it coming (even though I tell them how to fight stax). Sometimes, the meta doesn’t want to shift the way that you want it to, and that’s ok.
One thing I will say though is that playing in a tryhard format like legacy makes you hardier to stuff like this, and forces you to accept/respect other people’s strategies for the game. I feel like sometimes, edh is too insular and spoon-feeds players into thinking a sort of ‘this is what my group owes ne’ Mentality, and not a ‘what can I provide to the group’ mentality.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom