Recently the YuGiOh community had an official poll on "which archetype the game should focus on improving next", which is interesting. YuGiOh decks tend to be more strictly categorized, therefore a poll like that would usually benefit only one deck type and rarely others (Players will find loopholes, that's another problem entirely). It's also an opportunity for players to voice their enthusiasm for flavorful but less empowered deck types.
Now, since EDH is usually a casual format, its products are mostly reprints with few tournament caliber cards, would it be possible for WotC to start a similar poll, asking the player base what kind of theme (or creature type, if tribal) they should reinforce in one of their future EDH release? Obviously ones that were already done (like tribal vampire, artifact) should be on the waiting list, but there are countless other ideas, like chaos, Chroma/Devotion cards, more variety of Phelddagrif type legends, animate PWs, etc.
No. I trust them to listen when they need to listen and follow their own north star the rest of the time. I don't have the requisite hubris to try to dictate a creative process that's way over my head.
No. I trust them to listen when they need to listen and follow their own north star the rest of the time. I don't have the requisite hubris to try to dictate a creative process that's way over my head.
Is it hubris if the community just ask, for example, to finish the damn cycle of colors combination? Because the fact that the ally combo is the only one missing is seriously annoying me, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this.
I don't want them to ever open up design decisions to a player majority vote, because I've been in the community long enough to know that a large chunk of players don't know what is best for the game. This is especially true with the weight of certain creator and social media influencers out there who warp perception and drive beliefs, whether for better or worse. When I look at how people evaluate cards, or scream for cards to be banned in Modern or Commander that are not the problem, etc. Commander may be casual but the player base and money that goes into the secondary market is a very large chunk of the game's real etate at this point. It's not something I would want them to play around with. Even something as small as past You Design The Card contests have lead to questionable results.
I don't want them to ever open up design decisions to a player majority vote, because I've been in the community long enough to know that a large chunk of players don't know what is best for the game. This is especially true with the weight of certain creator and social media influencers out there who warp perception and drive beliefs, whether for better or worse. When I look at how people evaluate cards, or scream for cards to be banned in Modern or Commander that are not the problem, etc. Commander may be casual but the player base and money that goes into the secondary market is a very large chunk of the game's real etate at this point. It's not something I would want them to play around with. Even something as small as past You Design The Card contests have lead to questionable results.
Understood, though I wasn't suggesting a vote on individual card creation, but a vote on previously untouched themes players are interested in seeing, such as Chroma/Devotion. If WotC agreed to such idea they will likely look at current card stock, then design/playtest accordingly before release, player involvement stops right at the end of the poll.
Of course, this is assuming WotC cautiously forbidding players from voting on repetitive ideas like, "another artifact deck!" This could also be a once every few years poll so the company could exercise their own direction on most fronts. They could always include tournament level cards in less popular decks, something they already do to boost sales in case the results weren't optimal. (like Boros with Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas).
Awful idea. This is why we have all these movie franchises that everyone is burnt out on: Too much listening to the whiners online.
Just give them time to finish cycles. We just got the rest of the talismans. MH, like the annual Commander products, also had an influx of new uses for old mechanics, so “trust the process” seems to be working here.
I don’t think it would be disingenuous for WotC to ask what players (not pro) want in the broader sense of cycles, creature types, worlds, etc. Such a thing is called marketing research and can prove invaluable for future set development if WotC doesn’t go all knee jerk like the usually do. For instance, I’ve been wanting a fully developed snow theme set for years since I loved Ice Age and missed out on Coldsnap entirely. Unfortunately WotC’s solution was to introduce Snow into Modern Horizons which made any of the related mechanics anemic at best and downright unplayable otherwise. But I recognize not everyone wants, or even likes, snow anything. Which is fine. I never want to see cards like Emrakul or Carnage Tyrant ever again. Neither opinion in a survey will mean that WotC prints a proper snow set or not print Emrakul’s cousin.
So....well a few things to note about the reference poll. It was talking about next December, Konami will be releasing a structure deck to support a selected archtype.
The closest equivalent to MtG is to my understanding is the new guild decks (or that 75 dollar modern deck. Price Point more comparable to Guild Kits, at 20 v 12 dollar) These decks are given around 7-11 new cards depending on theme, need and more so.
Now what should be noted, is your reference of what is called archtype xenophobia is far more complicated then archetypes being no bueno with each other.
One of the options on the poll itself, was an example of that PKFire, two almost unrelated archetypes due to mechanics work together divinely. The deck that won (Shaddolls) is famous for easy hybridization (the archtype lacks xenophobia clauses and the various effects of the archtype trigger off what would be MtG equivalent to dies/discard/mill (as effect). Back to the topic, structure decks are often crafted as budget competitive (buying 2-3 of any one structure will get you the competitive tools you need to play at a local).
Through an older poll by Konami is more relevant, a poll for new link monsters. Specifically a poll for which theme should get an in theme link monster. It was held by Jump (the impetus was the change to New Master Rules and introduction of both EMZ and Link monsters which badly neutered older decks. So the poll was essentially asking what fan favorite archtype/deck wanted to be brought into modern era).
The advantage of that, was by Jump hosting/doing the poll and not Konami, Jump could slide the card into a promo slot. And not just trying to work around or fit it in a card set. Which even mob mentality aside, and your individual faith in our collective decision making process. Is not something that MtG can easily replicate, due to that fact. The closest/easiest way is something like Modern Horizons or a Core Set. But even then easier said than done.
And personally speaking? I think it’s a good idea. Essentially it’s just asking what players will spend their hard earned cash on. Or what they want out of the game. But yeah to reiterate something;
Structure Decks (most recent poll) are a gateway drug to competitive, and also provide pressure valves for reprint/card price. Meaning that archtype xenophobia aside, there is already a market for the deck regardless of theme. Second certain archtypes, hybrid very well with other cards and decks. And the one that won this poll is especially famous for that trait (it’s a built in feature to the archtype).
Jump Promos the other major avenue, YGO uses for these popularity promos represent a method for the game to introduce these cards without specific set dedication (or MtG case, needing to decide how build around draft with x card in mind unless it’s mythic). Jump Promos are also infamous for....well let’s say Jump needs to sell its subscriptions and magazines. And Yugioh promos are important to staying in the black.
MtG doesn’t really have its own stand alone structure deck style sets (Guild Kits style products long term might change that), similar to structure and doesn’t have a similar relationship to a magazine like Shonen Jump. So if MtG did do something like this I’d be wary for how they well print these cards. My 2 cents.
Structure Decks (most recent poll) are a gateway drug to competitive, and also provide pressure valves for reprint/card price. Meaning that archtype xenophobia aside, there is already a market for the deck regardless of theme. Second certain archtypes, hybrid very well with other cards and decks. And the one that won this poll is especially famous for that trait (it’s a built in feature to the archtype).
And thank goodness EDH isn't an official tournament format yet, and WotC has been trying to make the game more accessible, including digital version of MtG , EDH being casual is a great way for people to build decks base on flavor instead of power.
The benefit of a poll for EDH (I believe) is:
1) Using EDH products as a hub for popular reprints, as well as ones that could also go into tournament decks, thus lower prices on chase rares. "Cabal Coffer isn't a tournament card but it's popular in EDH monoblack, perhaps it's due for a reprint."
2) Encourages people to buy EDH products, and collect more cards because they will remain useful after tournament, provides longevity to the game. "Arcades, the Strategist for all your wall collection!"
3) Creativity and fun not bound by tournament competitiveness. "Time for a squirrel soldier legend that utilizes populate mechanic. Make it Abzan too."
4) Provide new cards that could support older deck types. "Here's Endless Atlas for mono-color players."
5) Patching lores of old timelines. "We want to know more about Ashnod during the war." "Where else had Angrath traveled to?"
I don't want them to ever open up design decisions to a player majority vote, because I've been in the community long enough to know that a large chunk of players don't know what is best for the game.
Would your answer change if WotC created a list of deck themes and let players vote on which would happen (as opposed to let players send in their own ideas)? And/or if the player vote only affected which of the themes happened first?
EDH players are notoriously bad at knowing what is good for EDH.
Again, the question wasn't asking ourselves to design cards, but to vote on potential themes to focus on. Think about it as if WotC is asking us to vote a tribe out of samurai/hippo/rebel/Octopus, it's about flavor over brokenness.
WotC should use the Commander products to complete mana cycles. Allied colors and shards still have too much of an advantage over enemy colors and wedges. They could've done this with wedge lairs in the first Commander product when they reprinted the wedge dragons that were the planeshifted versions of the shard dragons from Invasion. They could also print enemy color odyssey filter lands - something that won't break vintage or legacy. I could understand that in the future they will print enemy tango lands and bicycle lands. But looking through the past as to how many years are between an ally cycle appearing and then an enemy cycle being reprinted, it's too much time (ally pain lands in Ice Age and the enemy ones in Apocalypse, ally fetchlands in Onslaught and the enemy ones in Zendikar, etc.). If they're worried about Standard, they should print them whenever the other rotates out. I don't know why that's so difficult. Or just print the entire mega cycle in a single block like the Theros temples.
This is one major complaint from the Commander community that is valid. It has nothing to do with themes, mechanics, bans, etc. It's literally about deck building. Mana bases are a major part about consistency in deck building.
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They probably shouldn't let players vote, but if they did I'd vote for a 3+ colored spellslinger deck or a 5 color Legends/Superfriends deck with commanders that feel better then the options we have now. Plus the 5 Color deck could have legends in less colors to increase diversity for decks that don't want to be 5 colors. If they were to do a colorless deck, more colorless answers to things that some colors struggle with could be put into that deck.
i think i agree with the sentiments with most of the peeps here; it's a really bad idea. Even if WotC gave players a shortlist of themes to vote on. Even beyond mob rule, it'd give some players who voted the "i told you so" mindset, where they had voted for say mono colour, but then prison-control theme wins, and the decks don't turn out that amazing. that's the sort of thing that won't break the community, but will definitely insert some poison where there wasn't before.
Also, just the idea that WotC has say ideas A through F, the whole suspense of what it's going to be will be killed with a poll. That's not gonna help them sell packs; they're not just spilling the beans for the upcoming set, but potentially for the next decade, depending on how many choices there are on the poll.
Now, since EDH is usually a casual format, its products are mostly reprints with few tournament caliber cards, would it be possible for WotC to start a similar poll, asking the player base what kind of theme (or creature type, if tribal) they should reinforce in one of their future EDH release? Obviously ones that were already done (like tribal vampire, artifact) should be on the waiting list, but there are countless other ideas, like chaos, Chroma/Devotion cards, more variety of Phelddagrif type legends, animate PWs, etc.
Should they?
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Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Is it hubris if the community just ask, for example, to finish the damn cycle of colors combination? Because the fact that the ally combo is the only one missing is seriously annoying me, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this.
(Also known as Xenphire)
Understood, though I wasn't suggesting a vote on individual card creation, but a vote on previously untouched themes players are interested in seeing, such as Chroma/Devotion. If WotC agreed to such idea they will likely look at current card stock, then design/playtest accordingly before release, player involvement stops right at the end of the poll.
Of course, this is assuming WotC cautiously forbidding players from voting on repetitive ideas like, "another artifact deck!" This could also be a once every few years poll so the company could exercise their own direction on most fronts. They could always include tournament level cards in less popular decks, something they already do to boost sales in case the results weren't optimal. (like Boros with Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas).
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Just give them time to finish cycles. We just got the rest of the talismans. MH, like the annual Commander products, also had an influx of new uses for old mechanics, so “trust the process” seems to be working here.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
I don’t think it would be disingenuous for WotC to ask what players (not pro) want in the broader sense of cycles, creature types, worlds, etc. Such a thing is called marketing research and can prove invaluable for future set development if WotC doesn’t go all knee jerk like the usually do. For instance, I’ve been wanting a fully developed snow theme set for years since I loved Ice Age and missed out on Coldsnap entirely. Unfortunately WotC’s solution was to introduce Snow into Modern Horizons which made any of the related mechanics anemic at best and downright unplayable otherwise. But I recognize not everyone wants, or even likes, snow anything. Which is fine. I never want to see cards like Emrakul or Carnage Tyrant ever again. Neither opinion in a survey will mean that WotC prints a proper snow set or not print Emrakul’s cousin.
1: Wizards comes up with a list of 10-20 themes that they would be interested in making.
2: Wizards posts online poll.
3: Players vote on their favorites.
4: The following year, the top 4 themes are developed into decks and published.
Wizards still writes the lists, designs the cards. The players aren't even suggesting the options, just picking from a list that Wizards provides.
The closest equivalent to MtG is to my understanding is the new guild decks (or that 75 dollar modern deck. Price Point more comparable to Guild Kits, at 20 v 12 dollar) These decks are given around 7-11 new cards depending on theme, need and more so.
Now what should be noted, is your reference of what is called archtype xenophobia is far more complicated then archetypes being no bueno with each other.
One of the options on the poll itself, was an example of that PKFire, two almost unrelated archetypes due to mechanics work together divinely. The deck that won (Shaddolls) is famous for easy hybridization (the archtype lacks xenophobia clauses and the various effects of the archtype trigger off what would be MtG equivalent to dies/discard/mill (as effect). Back to the topic, structure decks are often crafted as budget competitive (buying 2-3 of any one structure will get you the competitive tools you need to play at a local).
Through an older poll by Konami is more relevant, a poll for new link monsters. Specifically a poll for which theme should get an in theme link monster. It was held by Jump (the impetus was the change to New Master Rules and introduction of both EMZ and Link monsters which badly neutered older decks. So the poll was essentially asking what fan favorite archtype/deck wanted to be brought into modern era).
The advantage of that, was by Jump hosting/doing the poll and not Konami, Jump could slide the card into a promo slot. And not just trying to work around or fit it in a card set. Which even mob mentality aside, and your individual faith in our collective decision making process. Is not something that MtG can easily replicate, due to that fact. The closest/easiest way is something like Modern Horizons or a Core Set. But even then easier said than done.
And personally speaking? I think it’s a good idea. Essentially it’s just asking what players will spend their hard earned cash on. Or what they want out of the game. But yeah to reiterate something;
Structure Decks (most recent poll) are a gateway drug to competitive, and also provide pressure valves for reprint/card price. Meaning that archtype xenophobia aside, there is already a market for the deck regardless of theme. Second certain archtypes, hybrid very well with other cards and decks. And the one that won this poll is especially famous for that trait (it’s a built in feature to the archtype).
Jump Promos the other major avenue, YGO uses for these popularity promos represent a method for the game to introduce these cards without specific set dedication (or MtG case, needing to decide how build around draft with x card in mind unless it’s mythic). Jump Promos are also infamous for....well let’s say Jump needs to sell its subscriptions and magazines. And Yugioh promos are important to staying in the black.
MtG doesn’t really have its own stand alone structure deck style sets (Guild Kits style products long term might change that), similar to structure and doesn’t have a similar relationship to a magazine like Shonen Jump. So if MtG did do something like this I’d be wary for how they well print these cards. My 2 cents.
CerberusJund (Modern)GRB
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Morphentress (Commander) GUB
I also play YGO (DragunFusion) and Hearthstone (Dragon Control Warrior)
And thank goodness EDH isn't an official tournament format yet, and WotC has been trying to make the game more accessible, including digital version of MtG , EDH being casual is a great way for people to build decks base on flavor instead of power.
The benefit of a poll for EDH (I believe) is:
1) Using EDH products as a hub for popular reprints, as well as ones that could also go into tournament decks, thus lower prices on chase rares. "Cabal Coffer isn't a tournament card but it's popular in EDH monoblack, perhaps it's due for a reprint."
2) Encourages people to buy EDH products, and collect more cards because they will remain useful after tournament, provides longevity to the game. "Arcades, the Strategist for all your wall collection!"
3) Creativity and fun not bound by tournament competitiveness. "Time for a squirrel soldier legend that utilizes populate mechanic. Make it Abzan too."
4) Provide new cards that could support older deck types. "Here's Endless Atlas for mono-color players."
5) Patching lores of old timelines. "We want to know more about Ashnod during the war." "Where else had Angrath traveled to?"
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
Again, the question wasn't asking ourselves to design cards, but to vote on potential themes to focus on. Think about it as if WotC is asking us to vote a tribe out of samurai/hippo/rebel/Octopus, it's about flavor over brokenness.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
This is one major complaint from the Commander community that is valid. It has nothing to do with themes, mechanics, bans, etc. It's literally about deck building. Mana bases are a major part about consistency in deck building.
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The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Also, just the idea that WotC has say ideas A through F, the whole suspense of what it's going to be will be killed with a poll. That's not gonna help them sell packs; they're not just spilling the beans for the upcoming set, but potentially for the next decade, depending on how many choices there are on the poll.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom