I mean I guess there's decks out there that are pretty much solved, so yeah there's that. Waiting for a functional Sol Ring reprint seems a waste of time, I don't think we'll see anything like that again. That being said, surely there's other bits and pieces that get released here and there that make you want to take a deck into different directions, right? Although I guess there's no need to fix what already works if you're winning T1.
Exactly my point. Plus I have other decks i can build. My dragon deck may have one more change before the next set is release and that will be replacing a card for Spark double. (I am thinking Clever impersonator... but clever impersonator has more value, being able to clone more than just my non legendary dragons. I can clone a temur Ascendancy, or Dragon Tempest or Mirari's Wake. Spark double does allow me to clone my general, or one of the dragonlords. In fact out of the 25 dragons i run, 7 are non legendary)
Actually come to think of it, Clever impersonator currently has less things to copy (That are non legendary, which would kill one of them) in my deck that Spark double will have since it can copy all 28 of my creatures, plus Sarkhan.
As stated previously, if you're winning on turn 1, doubtful anything will be printed to improve that (although something someday might be printed to increase its efficiency).
Otherwise no, not until they stop printing cards. I might have a deck (like my Mayael deck) that hasn't had an addition in the longest time, until they printed Ilharg the sneak attack boar and he went right in. It might be years before I get another card to fit into that deck but, eventually, there will be one.
As stated previously, if you're winning on turn 1, doubtful anything will be printed to improve that (although something someday might be printed to increase its efficiency).
Otherwise no, not until they stop printing cards. I might have a deck (like my Mayael deck) that hasn't had an addition in the longest time, until they printed Ilharg the sneak attack boar and he went right in. It might be years before I get another card to fit into that deck but, eventually, there will be one.
Right now, anything I hope is printed for jhoira is just win more. But I am the same. I am doubtful there will be anything else printed for dragons for quite a while. And at this point I actually have to weaken the deck to add more to it. I have to remove a good card to add kindred summons.
When new cards are printed, I'm generally only looking for more redundancy. I only just noticed that I missed, for example,Vindictive Vampire from RAV. Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder needs every copy of Blood Artist that exists so that it can survive every copy of Dark Prophecy that exists, for example.
I think it depends on what your goal is. If its power level or performance, yeah I think its possible to finish a deck, although for me that would mean its no longer a "work in progress" as opposed to "never change a card again". However I like to change around my decks a lot, tweak themes, include new subthemes, expand on strengths and cover weaknesses... but also cut cards that prove to be opressive or unfun to play against. As long as there is something to be done with a deck, it feels like a living thing to me, yearning for growth and grooming. As soon as a deck is done, its... done. Kinda dead.
To be honest, when a deck feels completed or solved, is the exact point that it becomes boring.
The testing the waters phase is always the most fun when playing.
Perhaps, i disagree. i mean my Jhoira deck is boring but it is build specifically for cEDH which is already a boring format.
My dragon deck, which feels completed and solved, yet i still have tons of fun with it. Easily my favorite deck.
Honestly, probably Momir Vig and The Scarab God (aside from budgetary stuff -I will never own a Tabernacle).
Momir Vig, simic visionary is an all in combo deck, the biggest alterations that have happened recently was the banning of Prophet which emiminated a major path of victory (prophet tutor mystic snake, mystic snake tutor deadeye navigator, game lock) and finally buckling down and buying food chain and misthollow griffin. Most of the tuning now is simply changing my roster of creatures that cost exactly GU. If another creature is printed, it will win.
The Scarab God is creatureless, which limits it by theme. It is a deck full of hate and incremental advantage, not a true stax but similar. The Scarab God is the latest in a long line of UB commanders that i think go wrexial, the risen deep, dragonlord silumgar, oona, queen of the fae and now this. None of them feel right still, but it is literally the least valuable card in the deck anyway.
So while there is a specific watch list for both of them, and I do still tinker, they aren't looking for anything more, and I would likely do pretty well just leaving them alone.
A lot of them get closer (getting new cards at increasing intervals), but not as long as we keep getting new shinies, no. Some decks are at a point where it's one or two cards a year that'll change, though.
Though it's rare more because of relatively narrow themes, not because newer "better" cards don't exist if I wanted to just go for the win with my decks. I have a handful of older decks that are so honed within their theme that unless more cards of pretty narrow category come up, they won't get much.
Granted, War of the Spark proved to be an exception to this. All but two decks got something, as a combination of good cards for the decks... and just generally cool stuff I wanted to find a home for (think Parhelion II).
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as for my Jhoira deck, the newest set is Dominaria (Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain) and until they release another 0 costing mana rock, there is little chance she will be upgraded. (But when decks consistently win turn 1, there is little room to upgrade)
You've brought up your Jhoira deck a lot (and I've seen others bring her up too) as being able to win turn 1 "consistently".
Maybe this isn't the right thread for the topic, but I'm a bit skeptical. Or at least I want to understand better. Turn 1 Jhoira alone is really unlikely, you'd need multiple pieces of fast mana (crypt + petal/mox does it, but even sol ring and mana vault are difficult to use to get there, since they need a mana to play, which makes getting 2 different colored mana really unlikely). And from there, you still need more pieces to actually storm off. Or is it some other combo, like dramatic scepter? Which also seems really hard T1 - at least you don't need colored mana, but you need 4 plus two specific combo pieces.
I also notice that Jhoira is, at least on that silly tier list, conspicuously not tier 1, which seems unusual for a commander that can supposedly "win consistently on turn 1".
Is there some combo I'm not considering? Am I underestimating the amount of fast mana in the format? Are we using different definitions of "consistently"? Because I'd say "consistently" means "more than 70% of the time or so", which seems really difficult to believe with my current understanding of the deck.
I'm certainly no cEDH expert so I'm totally open to being wrong, but I've played against a cEDH Jhoira deck before and, while it was strong, I don't think he ever won before turn 3 or so. Maybe turn 2 at the earliest. So I'm having a hard time with this "consistent turn 1 wins" thing.
as for my Jhoira deck, the newest set is Dominaria (Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain) and until they release another 0 costing mana rock, there is little chance she will be upgraded. (But when decks consistently win turn 1, there is little room to upgrade)
You've brought up your Jhoira deck a lot (and I've seen others bring her up too) as being able to win turn 1 "consistently".
Maybe this isn't the right thread for the topic, but I'm a bit skeptical. Or at least I want to understand better. Turn 1 Jhoira alone is really unlikely, you'd need multiple pieces of fast mana (crypt + petal/mox does it, but even sol ring and mana vault are difficult to use to get there, since they need a mana to play, which makes getting 2 different colored mana really unlikely). And from there, you still need more pieces to actually storm off. Or is it some other combo, like dramatic scepter? Which also seems really hard T1 - at least you don't need colored mana, but you need 4 plus two specific combo pieces.
I also notice that Jhoira is, at least on that silly tier list, conspicuously not tier 1, which seems unusual for a commander that can supposedly "win consistently on turn 1".
Is there some combo I'm not considering? Am I underestimating the amount of fast mana in the format? Are we using different definitions of "consistently"? Because I'd say "consistently" means "more than 70% of the time or so", which seems really difficult to believe with my current understanding of the deck.
I'm certainly no cEDH expert so I'm totally open to being wrong, but I've played against a cEDH Jhoira deck before and, while it was strong, I don't think he ever won before turn 3 or so. Maybe turn 2 at the earliest. So I'm having a hard time with this "consistent turn 1 wins" thing.
the most important card in the deck is mana severance. With that gone you are drawing off pretty much every single card. There are many more mana rocks that may cos 1 or more to put out, but in the long run they are not important as you reach the point in which you have the mana you need.
you will not always win turn 1, but given how EDH works out, constantly is more than once in a blue moon. Unlike many deck that need magical Christmas land hand to pull of a turn 1 win, this deck just needs a decent one. Turn two or three is very possible and more likely to happen, but it not a miracle to win turn 1. (I did two games in a row where turn 2 was the ed of the game) I did a match where I did not even know turn 1 was going to win my the game.
It is not a fun deck to play against, nor is it fun to play, but i did not build it to be fun. I built it to win cash or other prizes when playing for prizes. (The best part of the deck is that while i am running a proxy Dual land (Volcanic island is in my dragon deck) it has no require of said land. It can work perfectly fine on just basics. (And sine you are only running 31 lands (Need to cut it for another rock, maybe LED (it can hurt since it is "discard your hand" so not really wanting to) Your mana rocks become part of your land count, so it is more consistent to draw into them.
...did i miss anything? I don't have a decklist to work off of.
sorting those out, we've got...
1 crypt, 2 free colorless mana
2 mox diamond, spirit guide, lotus petal, mox opal, chrome mox, gemstone caverns - 1 free colored mana each, sometimes with restrictions
3 sol ring and mana vault, which turns 1 colorless into 2(+), and desperate/pyretic ritual, which does basically the same provided you have a red to start
4 seething song, which is mostly useless in terms of casting jhoira, but can turn 2R into 2RU in tandem with a 2-mana rock that taps for 2 in some capacity
In order to get a T1 Jhoira, you'd need...
1 from category 1 + 1 from category 2 + land
OR
3 from category 2 + land
OR
2 from category 2 + 1 from category 3 + land
OR
1 from category 1 + 1 from category 4 + land + 2 mana rock that taps for blue and is untapped (which are pretty rare on their own, tbh)
There are other possibilities but I think those are the main ones? There are weird things like casting retract to reset multiple free mana rocks, idk if that's a major consideration though.
anyway, running down the list...
odds of a mana crypt in the first 8 cards is ~8%, which multiplied with the chance of another free fast mana (~40%) is ~3%.
odds of three from category 2 is .6%, using a hypergeometric calculator because I'm lazy.
but if we consider category 3 part of category 2, which is mooostly correct, the odds rise to 2.1%. This is a little bit high since land + chrome mox + pyretic + sol ring can't cast jhoira, so let's round down to 2%, putting our odds so far at around 5%.
odds for anything involving seeting song are going to get really long, really fast, so I'm just going to ignore it since we already need a specific card (seething song), and then another specific card (mana crypt, or 2 other fast mana), and then one of just a couple different cards for the blue mana (which can't include fast mana or we could have just done it w/o the seething song).
But even that 5% is too high, because we also need a land, and given a 31 land deck and quite a few slots filled up already, the odds are good but they definitely aren't guaranteed. We also need multiple colors, so certain combinations like mountain + spirit guide + crypt don't work, which could drastically cut down the number of acceptable lands. On top of that, many of the fast mana have additional requirements - mox diamond needs a second land, mox opal needs 2 more free artifacts, chrome mox needs a colored (usually not artifact!) card, gemstone caverns needs to not go first, etc. And since these cards are a mainstay of our possible combinations, those criteria can definitely nosedive our chances.
But all that gets really tough to calculate. But just to ballpark it...I'm guessing something like 3% to cast Jhoira, perhaps?
And then we're ignoring the elephant in the room, which is that simply casting jhoira is a far cry from a win. You can cycle all the free artifacts, sure, but eventually you'll need more (probably colored) mana in order to cast a retract or something and really take off, mana-wise. I have no idea about the odds on that, but they feel...not great. Easy enough on turn 2 if you've cast jhoira turn 1, but really tough considering you probably just pillaged your hand for parts (chrome mox, mox diamond, gemstone caverns, etc) in order to even cast jhoira in the first place. You're probably relying on like 4 cards to win you the game.
So what are we looking at, maybe 1% or something?
Now, granted - mulligans are a thing. So that does kick the odds up considerably, although reducing hand size by 1 is immediately going to tank the odds of getting a turn 1 jhoira, let alone with the parts to win afterward. So mostly we're hoping the second hand will have the parts we need. So let's take that 1%, add another 1% for the second hand assuming we always mulligan if it doesn't win T1 (although that's already an issue since we don't see the 8th card yet and so we couldn't know) and then another 1% for all the other mulligans, although the odds drop off precipitously. So maaaaybe 3%?
Am I way off base? I'm not seeing anything close to this "consistent turn 1 wins" thing. I can believe it happens once in a particularly blue moon, and maybe once someone pulled off a few turn 1s within a couple games of each other, if they were incredibly lucky and/or didn't shuffle very well. But when you say "consistent"...what exactly do you mean by that? What percentage of games do YOU think you win on turn 1?
...did i miss anything? I don't have a decklist to work off of.
sorting those out, we've got...
1 crypt, 2 free colorless mana
2 mox diamond, spirit guide, lotus petal, mox opal, chrome mox, gemstone caverns - 1 free colored mana each, sometimes with restrictions
3 sol ring and mana vault, which turns 1 colorless into 2(+), and desperate/pyretic ritual, which does basically the same provided you have a red to start
4 seething song, which is mostly useless in terms of casting jhoira, but can turn 2R into 2RU in tandem with a 2-mana rock that taps for 2 in some capacity
In order to get a T1 Jhoira, you'd need...
1 from category 1 + 1 from category 2 + land
OR
3 from category 2 + land
OR
2 from category 2 + 1 from category 3 + land
OR
1 from category 1 + 1 from category 4 + land + 2 mana rock that taps for blue and is untapped (which are pretty rare on their own, tbh)
There are other possibilities but I think those are the main ones? There are weird things like casting retract to reset multiple free mana rocks, idk if that's a major consideration though.
anyway, running down the list...
odds of a mana crypt in the first 8 cards is ~8%, which multiplied with the chance of another free fast mana (~40%) is ~3%.
odds of three from category 2 is .6%, using a hypergeometric calculator because I'm lazy.
but if we consider category 3 part of category 2, which is mooostly correct, the odds rise to 2.1%. This is a little bit high since land + chrome mox + pyretic + sol ring can't cast jhoira, so let's round down to 2%, putting our odds so far at around 5%.
odds for anything involving seeting song are going to get really long, really fast, so I'm just going to ignore it since we already need a specific card (seething song), and then another specific card (mana crypt, or 2 other fast mana), and then one of just a couple different cards for the blue mana (which can't include fast mana or we could have just done it w/o the seething song).
But even that 5% is too high, because we also need a land, and given a 31 land deck and quite a few slots filled up already, the odds are good but they definitely aren't guaranteed. We also need multiple colors, so certain combinations like mountain + spirit guide + crypt don't work, which could drastically cut down the number of acceptable lands. On top of that, many of the fast mana have additional requirements - mox diamond needs a second land, mox opal needs 2 more free artifacts, chrome mox needs a colored (usually not artifact!) card, gemstone caverns needs to not go first, etc. And since these cards are a mainstay of our possible combinations, those criteria can definitely nosedive our chances.
But all that gets really tough to calculate. But just to ballpark it...I'm guessing something like 3% to cast Jhoira, perhaps?
And then we're ignoring the elephant in the room, which is that simply casting jhoira is a far cry from a win. You can cycle all the free artifacts, sure, but eventually you'll need more (probably colored) mana in order to cast a retract or something and really take off, mana-wise. I have no idea about the odds on that, but they feel...not great. Easy enough on turn 2 if you've cast jhoira turn 1, but really tough considering you probably just pillaged your hand for parts (chrome mox, mox diamond, gemstone caverns, etc) in order to even cast jhoira in the first place. You're probably relying on like 4 cards to win you the game.
So what are we looking at, maybe 1% or something?
Now, granted - mulligans are a thing. So that does kick the odds up considerably, although reducing hand size by 1 is immediately going to tank the odds of getting a turn 1 jhoira, let alone with the parts to win afterward. So mostly we're hoping the second hand will have the parts we need. So let's take that 1%, add another 1% for the second hand assuming we always mulligan if it doesn't win T1 (although that's already an issue since we don't see the 8th card yet and so we couldn't know) and then another 1% for all the other mulligans, although the odds drop off precipitously. So maaaaybe 3%?
Am I way off base? I'm not seeing anything close to this "consistent turn 1 wins" thing. I can believe it happens once in a particularly blue moon, and maybe once someone pulled off a few turn 1s within a couple games of each other, if they were incredibly lucky and/or didn't shuffle very well. But when you say "consistent"...what exactly do you mean by that? What percentage of games do YOU think you win on turn 1?
Chrome mox was on my list but cut quickly due to having only 13 colored cards, some of which are win cons or mana accel (Rituals) I an easily replace an island with gemstone cavers, (I should do that) and i did not even know of the third red ritual.
As for consistent turn one. I say if I play 10 games, I will win all by turn 5. (Unless i get really crappy draws) 2 will be turn One, 3 will be turn two and the rest turn three-five.
20% is still really consistent and you just cave me two cards to help that statistic.
No i am not gonna go play 100 games to give you exact numbers, and I don't like playing the deck in my Playgroup. they hate it and i hate it. But the fact is. i have only lost 1 game, and that was before the upgrades. This is v2.0 of the deck. (And with your suggestions it will be v2.1)
But since there are people who film at the game store (MTGmuddstah now and then and another youtuber known as BTgamenight.) and I plan to start doing recording myself as soon as I can get a camera. You might actually see the deck pulled out, but doubtful, you are more likely to see my dragon deck.
Are there cards I'm missing? Just in the roughest analysis, there's only like 11 cards in that list (of which you're only running 8?) that can help get you there turn 1, and except for mana crypt you need 3 of them basically. Getting 3 of them in 8 draws is 1.6%, which even if you're mulliganning very aggressively, I don't see how it's possible to break maybe 5% at maximum, which is a far cry from 20%. And that's ignoring...
-You can't see the 8th card while mulliganning
-You still have to, y'know, win after casting jhoira
-You have to fit the requirements for some of the free mana
-Many combinations of fast mana don't give you the right colors
So I just don't get where this 20% is coming from? Is there more fast mana I'm not considering? Other ways to win? Help me out here, because the math just does not add up for me. Putting up the decklist would make it easier to see what's going on at least, but from where I'm sitting it looks way more likely that you've either had amazing luck in a relatively small sample size, or you're overestimating the numbers. And Jhoira's absence from the top tier in the cEDH list seems like it agrees with this assessment.
Are there cards I'm missing? Just in the roughest analysis, there's only like 11 cards in that list (of which you're only running 8?) that can help get you there turn 1, and except for mana crypt you need 3 of them basically. Getting 3 of them in 8 draws is 1.6%, which even if you're mulliganning very aggressively, I don't see how it's possible to break maybe 5% at maximum, which is a far cry from 20%. And that's ignoring...
-You can't see the 8th card while mulliganning
-You still have to, y'know, win after casting jhoira
-You have to fit the requirements for some of the free mana
-Many combinations of fast mana don't give you the right colors
So I just don't get where this 20% is coming from? Is there more fast mana I'm not considering? Other ways to win? Help me out here, because the math just does not add up for me. Putting up the decklist would make it easier to see what's going on at least, but from where I'm sitting it looks way more likely that you've either had amazing luck in a relatively small sample size, or you're overestimating the numbers. And Jhoira's absence from the top tier in the cEDH list seems like it agrees with this assessment.
last night i did three games with jhoira. turn 2, turn 3 and turn 6.
Drawing into sol ring, Having sol ring or really any of the cards that grant mana can make turn 2 or 3 very easy to pull off. Helm of awakening also makes those pesky 1 mana cards, free. Mana severence is the most important card in the deck. So i just need a more consistent way to draw it. though going through most of the deck with 0 costing cards does help dig for it quickly. My win cons are Aetherflux Reservoir, Grapeshot, Psychosis Crawler or Labman. Words of wind has also been a win con as I bounced back everything and then just swung with Jhoira, still would take me 7 turns per person, but they understood they were not winning at that point.
May not always be turn 1. But it is still very early most games with 6 being a very late. And yes i do get lucky often. I mean last night i had a game where a guy was going to kill us by milling us out. But he could not stop me as the game went as follows.
I have nexus of fate. I have just enough mana to cast it and my general. (general is The ur-dragon, but i had reducers to make him cost WUBRG (And i had The immortal sun, so Nexus actually cost 4UU)
Now Ur dargon did not have haste so this is why it worked.
I take my extra turn, i draw, cast nexus of fate, swing, draw (Due tod ragon;s ability) then cast nexus of fate again. Every time it would go back to my library, leaving me with one card left to draw.
Wouldn't you need to cast it 3x per turn, since you're drawing from draw step + immortal sun + commander? And why would haste matter, you don't need to attack even if he can (or if he has to for some reason, play him second main)? Also - unless I'm missing something, which is totally possible - is it really that lucky? If someone tries to mill you while you have nexus of fate, you'll always win that game provided you can cast it and have some sort of way to progress towards a win either on board, or castable in hand. If nexus wasn't in your hand, it would have just ended up as the sole card in your deck? Unless it was exile mill? Anyway it's not like being lucky is a persistent condition.
Turn 2 is waaaaay more believable than turn 1. If you said you won even, say, 50% of your games on turn 2...I might be a little skeptical...but it would be really hard to disprove with simple probabilities. Let alone later turns. I can absolutely believe that turn 3-4 is fairly easy (at least when not disrupted) - that's true of many cEDH decks from my knowledge/experience. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the deck could goldfish 80%+ of games on turn <= 4. Doesn't really prove anything about a turn 1 win, though. Turn 1 wins are really, really unlikely. Even in vintage, to my understanding.
"May not always be turn 1. But it is still very early most games with 6 being a very late."
^ this seems roughly equivalent to "I can't always run a four minute mile, but I almost always finish a mile in less then twenty minutes." They're such disparate claims that the latter says almost nothing about the former.
Wouldn't you need to cast it 3x per turn, since you're drawing from draw step + immortal sun + commander? And why would haste matter, you don't need to attack even if he can (or if he has to for some reason, play him second main)? Also - unless I'm missing something, which is totally possible - is it really that lucky? If someone tries to mill you while you have nexus of fate, you'll always win that game provided you can cast it and have some sort of way to progress towards a win either on board, or castable in hand. If nexus wasn't in your hand, it would have just ended up as the sole card in your deck? Unless it was exile mill? Anyway it's not like being lucky is a persistent condition.
Turn 2 is waaaaay more believable than turn 1. If you said you won even, say, 50% of your games on turn 2...I might be a little skeptical...but it would be really hard to disprove with simple probabilities. Let alone later turns. I can absolutely believe that turn 3-4 is fairly easy (at least when not disrupted) - that's true of many cEDH decks from my knowledge/experience. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the deck could goldfish 80%+ of games on turn <= 4. Doesn't really prove anything about a turn 1 win, though. Turn 1 wins are really, really unlikely. Even in vintage, to my understanding.
"May not always be turn 1. But it is still very early most games with 6 being a very late."
^ this seems roughly equivalent to "I can't always run a four minute mile, but I almost always finish a mile in less then twenty minutes." They're such disparate claims that the latter says almost nothing about the former.
Huh... we all completely forgot about the extra draw from Immortal sun. So I guess I lost that game, oh well.
4 minutes and 20 minutes are a much larger gap than 1 turn and four turns. (Granted i cannot even run a four minute mile to begin with, but give me twenty minutes to run a mile and i could probably pull it off)
Besides i never say it was always turn one, i just said i could consistently pull it off turn one. I have done so multiple occasions. I don;t play enough games to get true figures with my Jhoira deck so i go with the data i have. I would say for my wins, maybe a third is turn 1. Games don;t get much further than turn 4 anyway. And some people scoop the very second i start storming. If i have extra man (mox amber for example) they usually yield at the guess i will draw mana severance. (Which is again, the most powerful card in the deck) Maybe I will again switch out a card for Mystical tutor, just make getting it easier. however that will be an extra blue i may not have. You are right about one thing, colors are tough to get early game.
Are we really having a semantics argument about what "consistently" means?
I'm trying not to really go into that argument since I don't really care - if he wants to call 20% "consistently", then that's fine even though I personally wouldn't. Mostly I want to understand why, mathematically, it seems like 5% should be just about the absolute limit for turn 1 wins, but he was claiming 20%. Except now he's saying 33%? That seems like a big shift.
I like to keep abreast of what the scariest things in the format are, so I know how to play against them when I see them. A deck being able to win T1, even 20% of the time (the lowest number he's claimed, I think), would be a pretty damn scary thing, since if you're after them in turn order, your responses are limited to just a couple cards (FoW mostly...pacts if you're willing to go out in a blaze of glory...). So I either want to understand how he's doing this as often as he claims, or determine that he's somehow mistaken.
In that vein - when you're casting Jhoira on turn 1, is it primarily by having 3 of those cards listed (or 1 + mana crypt)? Or are there other relevant cards that I'm not taking into account? Also - do you use vancouver mulligans, or are you doing partial paris or something that would make it easier to sculpt a fast-mana-heavy hand?
EDIT: also - what percentage of games where you DO cast jhoira T1 would you say you win on that turn?
I see what the confusion for 20% vs 33%. When I have the 20% I was trying to say that it is more consistent than say once in a blue moon. And I don't need "magical Christmas land" hand to pull it off as often as I do. But yea a third of My games do succed in turn one wins.
Of course in recent games I have been able to. So maybe the deck just performed really well when I started and has since slowed down. (I do plan true o play a second jhoira deck that is not as evil. One that still uses her ability, but not storm off with her.)
Casting her turn o e and winning that turn. Maybe about fifty. I am not sure. I cast her turn one very often. Of course when I go against people and they see jhoira, they usually mill to get a plains and path or swords in hand (if they play white, since they know how fast my deck runs.
We do the current mull edh mull. We did partial Paris until it changed to Vancouver. Since my arcum deck which went 3v1 and I still laughed fell hard when partial Paris left, I had to take it apart. The new mull may even help jhoira.
If it's 33% T1 wins (assuming your T1 wins always involve casting Jhoira?) and if you only win 50% the games T1 where you cast her T1...that would mean you'd need to cast her T1 66% of the time?
And the cards that help you cast her T1 that you're running are...
Exactly my point. Plus I have other decks i can build. My dragon deck may have one more change before the next set is release and that will be replacing a card for Spark double. (I am thinking Clever impersonator... but clever impersonator has more value, being able to clone more than just my non legendary dragons. I can clone a temur Ascendancy, or Dragon Tempest or Mirari's Wake. Spark double does allow me to clone my general, or one of the dragonlords. In fact out of the 25 dragons i run, 7 are non legendary)
Actually come to think of it, Clever impersonator currently has less things to copy (That are non legendary, which would kill one of them) in my deck that Spark double will have since it can copy all 28 of my creatures, plus Sarkhan.
Otherwise no, not until they stop printing cards. I might have a deck (like my Mayael deck) that hasn't had an addition in the longest time, until they printed Ilharg the sneak attack boar and he went right in. It might be years before I get another card to fit into that deck but, eventually, there will be one.
Mayael the Anima
The Mimeoplasm
Sen Triplets
Unesh, Criosphinx Sovereign
Rafiq of the many
Circu, Dimir Lobotomist
Toshiro Umezawa
Right now, anything I hope is printed for jhoira is just win more. But I am the same. I am doubtful there will be anything else printed for dragons for quite a while. And at this point I actually have to weaken the deck to add more to it. I have to remove a good card to add kindred summons.
UR Mizzix of the Izmagnus ~~~ Build your own win-condition: Finite Spellslinging
UR Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer ~~~ We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic ~~~ A Guide to dying slowly
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose ~~~ Marchesa's undying Marionettes
RGW Mayael the Anima ~~~ All Hail the Big Chungus
GWU Chulane, Teller of Tales ~~~ Permanents Only ETB Shenanigans
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant ~~~ Sidisi's Restless Servants
WUBRG The Ur-Dragon ~~~ Dragons eat your face
The testing the waters phase is always the most fun when playing.
Perhaps, i disagree. i mean my Jhoira deck is boring but it is build specifically for cEDH which is already a boring format.
My dragon deck, which feels completed and solved, yet i still have tons of fun with it. Easily my favorite deck.
Momir Vig, simic visionary is an all in combo deck, the biggest alterations that have happened recently was the banning of Prophet which emiminated a major path of victory (prophet tutor mystic snake, mystic snake tutor deadeye navigator, game lock) and finally buckling down and buying food chain and misthollow griffin. Most of the tuning now is simply changing my roster of creatures that cost exactly GU. If another creature is printed, it will win.
The Scarab God is creatureless, which limits it by theme. It is a deck full of hate and incremental advantage, not a true stax but similar. The Scarab God is the latest in a long line of UB commanders that i think go wrexial, the risen deep, dragonlord silumgar, oona, queen of the fae and now this. None of them feel right still, but it is literally the least valuable card in the deck anyway.
So while there is a specific watch list for both of them, and I do still tinker, they aren't looking for anything more, and I would likely do pretty well just leaving them alone.
Though it's rare more because of relatively narrow themes, not because newer "better" cards don't exist if I wanted to just go for the win with my decks. I have a handful of older decks that are so honed within their theme that unless more cards of pretty narrow category come up, they won't get much.
Granted, War of the Spark proved to be an exception to this. All but two decks got something, as a combination of good cards for the decks... and just generally cool stuff I wanted to find a home for (think Parhelion II).
Long live ARCUM DAGSSON.
ETA: I agree that prizes are for when you want people to play very short games.
Maybe this isn't the right thread for the topic, but I'm a bit skeptical. Or at least I want to understand better. Turn 1 Jhoira alone is really unlikely, you'd need multiple pieces of fast mana (crypt + petal/mox does it, but even sol ring and mana vault are difficult to use to get there, since they need a mana to play, which makes getting 2 different colored mana really unlikely). And from there, you still need more pieces to actually storm off. Or is it some other combo, like dramatic scepter? Which also seems really hard T1 - at least you don't need colored mana, but you need 4 plus two specific combo pieces.
I also notice that Jhoira is, at least on that silly tier list, conspicuously not tier 1, which seems unusual for a commander that can supposedly "win consistently on turn 1".
Is there some combo I'm not considering? Am I underestimating the amount of fast mana in the format? Are we using different definitions of "consistently"? Because I'd say "consistently" means "more than 70% of the time or so", which seems really difficult to believe with my current understanding of the deck.
I'm certainly no cEDH expert so I'm totally open to being wrong, but I've played against a cEDH Jhoira deck before and, while it was strong, I don't think he ever won before turn 3 or so. Maybe turn 2 at the earliest. So I'm having a hard time with this "consistent turn 1 wins" thing.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Mana rocks, and most of them. You aggressively mull until you ave 2 colors plus extra. Simian spirit guide, Mox Opal, Mox Diamond, Lotus petal. Seething Song and Desperate Ritual also help.
the most important card in the deck is mana severance. With that gone you are drawing off pretty much every single card. There are many more mana rocks that may cos 1 or more to put out, but in the long run they are not important as you reach the point in which you have the mana you need.
you will not always win turn 1, but given how EDH works out, constantly is more than once in a blue moon. Unlike many deck that need magical Christmas land hand to pull of a turn 1 win, this deck just needs a decent one. Turn two or three is very possible and more likely to happen, but it not a miracle to win turn 1. (I did two games in a row where turn 2 was the ed of the game) I did a match where I did not even know turn 1 was going to win my the game.
It is not a fun deck to play against, nor is it fun to play, but i did not build it to be fun. I built it to win cash or other prizes when playing for prizes. (The best part of the deck is that while i am running a proxy Dual land (Volcanic island is in my dragon deck) it has no require of said land. It can work perfectly fine on just basics. (And sine you are only running 31 lands (Need to cut it for another rock, maybe LED (it can hurt since it is "discard your hand" so not really wanting to) Your mana rocks become part of your land count, so it is more consistent to draw into them.
...did i miss anything? I don't have a decklist to work off of.
sorting those out, we've got...
1 crypt, 2 free colorless mana
2 mox diamond, spirit guide, lotus petal, mox opal, chrome mox, gemstone caverns - 1 free colored mana each, sometimes with restrictions
3 sol ring and mana vault, which turns 1 colorless into 2(+), and desperate/pyretic ritual, which does basically the same provided you have a red to start
4 seething song, which is mostly useless in terms of casting jhoira, but can turn 2R into 2RU in tandem with a 2-mana rock that taps for 2 in some capacity
In order to get a T1 Jhoira, you'd need...
1 from category 1 + 1 from category 2 + land
OR
3 from category 2 + land
OR
2 from category 2 + 1 from category 3 + land
OR
1 from category 1 + 1 from category 4 + land + 2 mana rock that taps for blue and is untapped (which are pretty rare on their own, tbh)
There are other possibilities but I think those are the main ones? There are weird things like casting retract to reset multiple free mana rocks, idk if that's a major consideration though.
anyway, running down the list...
odds of a mana crypt in the first 8 cards is ~8%, which multiplied with the chance of another free fast mana (~40%) is ~3%.
odds of three from category 2 is .6%, using a hypergeometric calculator because I'm lazy.
but if we consider category 3 part of category 2, which is mooostly correct, the odds rise to 2.1%. This is a little bit high since land + chrome mox + pyretic + sol ring can't cast jhoira, so let's round down to 2%, putting our odds so far at around 5%.
odds for anything involving seeting song are going to get really long, really fast, so I'm just going to ignore it since we already need a specific card (seething song), and then another specific card (mana crypt, or 2 other fast mana), and then one of just a couple different cards for the blue mana (which can't include fast mana or we could have just done it w/o the seething song).
But even that 5% is too high, because we also need a land, and given a 31 land deck and quite a few slots filled up already, the odds are good but they definitely aren't guaranteed. We also need multiple colors, so certain combinations like mountain + spirit guide + crypt don't work, which could drastically cut down the number of acceptable lands. On top of that, many of the fast mana have additional requirements - mox diamond needs a second land, mox opal needs 2 more free artifacts, chrome mox needs a colored (usually not artifact!) card, gemstone caverns needs to not go first, etc. And since these cards are a mainstay of our possible combinations, those criteria can definitely nosedive our chances.
But all that gets really tough to calculate. But just to ballpark it...I'm guessing something like 3% to cast Jhoira, perhaps?
And then we're ignoring the elephant in the room, which is that simply casting jhoira is a far cry from a win. You can cycle all the free artifacts, sure, but eventually you'll need more (probably colored) mana in order to cast a retract or something and really take off, mana-wise. I have no idea about the odds on that, but they feel...not great. Easy enough on turn 2 if you've cast jhoira turn 1, but really tough considering you probably just pillaged your hand for parts (chrome mox, mox diamond, gemstone caverns, etc) in order to even cast jhoira in the first place. You're probably relying on like 4 cards to win you the game.
So what are we looking at, maybe 1% or something?
Now, granted - mulligans are a thing. So that does kick the odds up considerably, although reducing hand size by 1 is immediately going to tank the odds of getting a turn 1 jhoira, let alone with the parts to win afterward. So mostly we're hoping the second hand will have the parts we need. So let's take that 1%, add another 1% for the second hand assuming we always mulligan if it doesn't win T1 (although that's already an issue since we don't see the 8th card yet and so we couldn't know) and then another 1% for all the other mulligans, although the odds drop off precipitously. So maaaaybe 3%?
Am I way off base? I'm not seeing anything close to this "consistent turn 1 wins" thing. I can believe it happens once in a particularly blue moon, and maybe once someone pulled off a few turn 1s within a couple games of each other, if they were incredibly lucky and/or didn't shuffle very well. But when you say "consistent"...what exactly do you mean by that? What percentage of games do YOU think you win on turn 1?
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Chrome mox was on my list but cut quickly due to having only 13 colored cards, some of which are win cons or mana accel (Rituals) I an easily replace an island with gemstone cavers, (I should do that) and i did not even know of the third red ritual.
As for consistent turn one. I say if I play 10 games, I will win all by turn 5. (Unless i get really crappy draws) 2 will be turn One, 3 will be turn two and the rest turn three-five.
20% is still really consistent and you just cave me two cards to help that statistic.
No i am not gonna go play 100 games to give you exact numbers, and I don't like playing the deck in my Playgroup. they hate it and i hate it. But the fact is. i have only lost 1 game, and that was before the upgrades. This is v2.0 of the deck. (And with your suggestions it will be v2.1)
But since there are people who film at the game store (MTGmuddstah now and then and another youtuber known as BTgamenight.) and I plan to start doing recording myself as soon as I can get a camera. You might actually see the deck pulled out, but doubtful, you are more likely to see my dragon deck.
-You can't see the 8th card while mulliganning
-You still have to, y'know, win after casting jhoira
-You have to fit the requirements for some of the free mana
-Many combinations of fast mana don't give you the right colors
So I just don't get where this 20% is coming from? Is there more fast mana I'm not considering? Other ways to win? Help me out here, because the math just does not add up for me. Putting up the decklist would make it easier to see what's going on at least, but from where I'm sitting it looks way more likely that you've either had amazing luck in a relatively small sample size, or you're overestimating the numbers. And Jhoira's absence from the top tier in the cEDH list seems like it agrees with this assessment.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
last night i did three games with jhoira. turn 2, turn 3 and turn 6.
Drawing into sol ring, Having sol ring or really any of the cards that grant mana can make turn 2 or 3 very easy to pull off. Helm of awakening also makes those pesky 1 mana cards, free. Mana severence is the most important card in the deck. So i just need a more consistent way to draw it. though going through most of the deck with 0 costing cards does help dig for it quickly. My win cons are Aetherflux Reservoir, Grapeshot, Psychosis Crawler or Labman. Words of wind has also been a win con as I bounced back everything and then just swung with Jhoira, still would take me 7 turns per person, but they understood they were not winning at that point.
May not always be turn 1. But it is still very early most games with 6 being a very late. And yes i do get lucky often. I mean last night i had a game where a guy was going to kill us by milling us out. But he could not stop me as the game went as follows.
I have nexus of fate. I have just enough mana to cast it and my general. (general is The ur-dragon, but i had reducers to make him cost WUBRG (And i had The immortal sun, so Nexus actually cost 4UU)
Now Ur dargon did not have haste so this is why it worked.
I take my extra turn, i draw, cast nexus of fate, swing, draw (Due tod ragon;s ability) then cast nexus of fate again. Every time it would go back to my library, leaving me with one card left to draw.
I would call that LUCKY.
Turn 2 is waaaaay more believable than turn 1. If you said you won even, say, 50% of your games on turn 2...I might be a little skeptical...but it would be really hard to disprove with simple probabilities. Let alone later turns. I can absolutely believe that turn 3-4 is fairly easy (at least when not disrupted) - that's true of many cEDH decks from my knowledge/experience. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the deck could goldfish 80%+ of games on turn <= 4. Doesn't really prove anything about a turn 1 win, though. Turn 1 wins are really, really unlikely. Even in vintage, to my understanding.
"May not always be turn 1. But it is still very early most games with 6 being a very late."
^ this seems roughly equivalent to "I can't always run a four minute mile, but I almost always finish a mile in less then twenty minutes." They're such disparate claims that the latter says almost nothing about the former.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Huh... we all completely forgot about the extra draw from Immortal sun. So I guess I lost that game, oh well.
4 minutes and 20 minutes are a much larger gap than 1 turn and four turns. (Granted i cannot even run a four minute mile to begin with, but give me twenty minutes to run a mile and i could probably pull it off)
Besides i never say it was always turn one, i just said i could consistently pull it off turn one. I have done so multiple occasions. I don;t play enough games to get true figures with my Jhoira deck so i go with the data i have. I would say for my wins, maybe a third is turn 1. Games don;t get much further than turn 4 anyway. And some people scoop the very second i start storming. If i have extra man (mox amber for example) they usually yield at the guess i will draw mana severance. (Which is again, the most powerful card in the deck) Maybe I will again switch out a card for Mystical tutor, just make getting it easier. however that will be an extra blue i may not have. You are right about one thing, colors are tough to get early game.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
I like to keep abreast of what the scariest things in the format are, so I know how to play against them when I see them. A deck being able to win T1, even 20% of the time (the lowest number he's claimed, I think), would be a pretty damn scary thing, since if you're after them in turn order, your responses are limited to just a couple cards (FoW mostly...pacts if you're willing to go out in a blaze of glory...). So I either want to understand how he's doing this as often as he claims, or determine that he's somehow mistaken.
In that vein - when you're casting Jhoira on turn 1, is it primarily by having 3 of those cards listed (or 1 + mana crypt)? Or are there other relevant cards that I'm not taking into account? Also - do you use vancouver mulligans, or are you doing partial paris or something that would make it easier to sculpt a fast-mana-heavy hand?
EDIT: also - what percentage of games where you DO cast jhoira T1 would you say you win on that turn?
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Of course in recent games I have been able to. So maybe the deck just performed really well when I started and has since slowed down. (I do plan true o play a second jhoira deck that is not as evil. One that still uses her ability, but not storm off with her.)
Casting her turn o e and winning that turn. Maybe about fifty. I am not sure. I cast her turn one very often. Of course when I go against people and they see jhoira, they usually mill to get a plains and path or swords in hand (if they play white, since they know how fast my deck runs.
We do the current mull edh mull. We did partial Paris until it changed to Vancouver. Since my arcum deck which went 3v1 and I still laughed fell hard when partial Paris left, I had to take it apart. The new mull may even help jhoira.
And the cards that help you cast her T1 that you're running are...
Am I missing anything?
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6