by this i do not mean thrown 100 cards together that work well and can win games. I mean a deck that cannot add more cards without making it weaker or ruin the theme. My friend has said that you can never finish and EDH deck as more cards come out and you can always upgrade. While true i also think some decks can be completed. When I start finding myself spending more time trying to find a card to remove for a new one (Like how long it took me to find a card to remove for Rhythm of the Wild or how long it took me to find a card to removed for Sarkhan the Masterless. My Jhoira deck cannot be altered as it will only weaken the deck. (Unless they come out with more 0 cost mana rocks)
When it comes to EDH some decks can indeed be completed, I have one that pretty much is, and another that while i did alter it recently, didn't really need the change, it worked fine without.
So anyone else ever complete a deck? Get a deck to teh point where it felt as though there was no where left to go? For me, there are a few decks I am working on that actually have a limitation on what can be added., they will officially be done until we return to ravnica yet again. (Which hopefully will not be for a long time. I am tired of ravnica.)
I mean, I definitely feel like I've completed Kaalia - the.....End Game...of arriving to Master of Cruelties with a Contract backup or a more direct worldgorger combo approach feels like peak efficiency. Note that this is after eight years and the deck is still enjoyable to me. New cards can come out but at this point the ceiling for strong enough cards to fit the list is so high that its likely those new cards don't make it in the list anyway.
I think there's often cards you strongly consider but decide not to go with...but then might try subbing in depending on the meta..then you decide to sub it out again etc...agony.
But generally I'd say yes for my Doran EDH, I know what I want it to do, I don't look to rework the deck in any way after multiple adjustments, now I'm only looking towards new sets offering anything strictly better (new Oketra is getting a spot)
Within tight enough constraints, sure, absolutely. Once I made a deck for which the constraints were "the 40 most expensive lands, and the 60 most expensive nonlands, that I own". That deck was completed as soon as I finished putting it together (although obviously prices have shifted and I've acquired new cards since then).
Within the normal, broader constraints of "as good of a deck as possible for X commander"...well, only for a particular meta at a particular time in magic' history. And even then, no one can realistically play enough reps with a deck to have a high degree of confidence that they've perfected it. I mean, you can get close-ish if you play it a lot. Close enough that it probably doesn't make much of a difference.
To really be confident you've perfected the deck down to the last card, you'd probably need to write a program to bash decks against each other for millions of reps or something. And even assuming you could program optimal play, I have no idea how you'd program multiplayer politics.
Pros spend tons of time bashing decks against each other, and their decklists still have differences between each other, even at high-level competition. And that's with 60 cards, duplicates, and a well-established meta. For commander? Seems unlikely. But you can get close enough.
Its true that there are always new cards coming out but shy of that yes I find myself in a position where I have tuned decks as far as I can for the metas I play in. At that point I often start playing them a lot less and some of them I will dismantle potentially after not playing them for some time. Some decks are built in such a way that they get new inclusions far less often such as some niche tribals or themes. I had a Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero deck that didn't really have much for changes for years. It was a sweet deck but I found that I played it less and less because it went without changes for a few blocks it felt like.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Its true that there are always new cards coming out but shy of that yes I find myself in a position where I have tuned decks as far as I can for the metas I play in. At that point I often start playing them a lot less and some of them I will dismantle potentially after not playing them for some time. Some decks are built in such a way that they get new inclusions far less often such as some niche tribals or themes. I had a Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero deck that didn't really have much for changes for years. It was a sweet deck but I found that I played it less and less because it went without changes for a few blocks it felt like.
This post reminds me that Lin Sivvi is the perfect commander to build for fun games with a couple of players finding their groove. It can be reasonably optimized to appease your inner-spike, but the corre of it will remain fairly unchanged, even under-powered by today's standards as Rebels aren't a tribe to see any extra play. And being in mono-W puts a definite cap on your overall effectiveness. Great concept deck for players in such a meta, or going into an unknown meta.
Sorry to derail the thread. Just wanted to make a mental note to myself.
I believe a deck's core build can definitely be finished. New cards should only be considered if they improve upon every facet of the card it would be replacing without deviating from the deck's core strategy. So yes, I believe a deck can be finished.
I always "complete" a deck within the artificial constraints I set for myself when I begin. I do a lot of homework before investing in a deck to make sure I can complete it. I make sure any deck I build doesn't want anything I can't afford. Sometimes, I add additional rules to my deck building, for example, Endrek Sahr has no tutors at all. Not a single card says "search your library". I also wanted every single card to be a permanent. So yeah, I put together very particular creations, but they never want for anything.
Well, my skyrim horde deck is definitely 'finished'. There are only so many big dragons, wolves and stuff that i can be bothered to source and chuck into a 300 card, tiered deck.
In terms of EDH, i'd consider most of them to be finished within the constraints i've set (i.e. contains cards i already have and isn't needed for legacy).
I think there will always be new cards that will be strictly better than what you have in your deck.
I also think that sometimes a card comes out that fits your deck better than another card.
I would never call any deck of mine to be in a fixed state... I am always open to updates.
Metagames shift. If you're at the top, people will counter you, so you need things to counter their counters.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Metagames shift. If you're at the top, people will counter you, so you need things to counter their counters.
my meta has people play multiple decks (generally 3 decks some have less and some have more) so I am not to worried about someone building a deck strictly to beat my deck.
My other deck wins turn one quite often, so not too worried about that either. If they get to play a single land (if that) chances are they won't have many answers that early.
Only until they print another card that could go in. I just acquired the last "maro" available in colors for my maro tribal deck today. For now, it is complete (at least the maro part). I am sure that sooner or later, there will be many other cards that make it into the list!
I mean, the condition by which I determine what cards go in my decks is "what do I want to play with" and that's subject to change on a whim. Rarely have I ever had every card I wanted for a deck assembled at once, but there have certainly been times where I would say the Zedruu was perfect for the moment. But not only have there been new cards printed, also I can become interested in different gameplay from the same cardpool and chip into a "completed" deck regardless.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I would have to say to anybody who thinks their deck is complete for life ..ignorance is bliss..
A deck can never be truly finished, only enjoyed for it's magnificence in a moment of time.
Pending how long you play it and the level you've arrived you, of course. It's only natural that you review new cards that come out to see if they're going to make the cut, but once you've reached that point the odds are that they won't.
I would have to say to anybody who thinks their deck is complete for life ..ignorance is bliss..
A deck can never be truly finished, only enjoyed for it's magnificence in a moment of time.
While I would agree, i am sure there are decks that have never been upgraded due to never needing to. In most cases, if a deck is "complete" it is most likely due to each set not releasing a new card for said deck. My dragon almost got no upgrades form the newset block, but Rhythm of the Wild and Sarkhan the masterless were great additions. (Only took me like an hour each to figure out what card to remove to add them)
I do however not think there will be another card for the deck for a while. So until they release another great card that my deck really needs, it's done.
as for my Jhoira deck, the newest set is Dominaria (Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain) and until they release another 0 costing mana rock, there is little chance she will be upgraded. (But when decks consistently win turn 1, there is little room to upgrade)
Metagames shift. If you're at the top, people will counter you, so you need things to counter their counters.
my meta has people play multiple decks (generally 3 decks some have less and some have more) so I am not to worried about someone building a deck strictly to beat my deck.
My other deck wins turn one quite often, so not too worried about that either. If they get to play a single land (if that) chances are they won't have many answers that early.
It's not about building one just to beat your deck. It's about just including a few, still good in other circumstances, cards. Hermit Druid decks started falling quickly after everyone included gravehate, and gravehate is nice to have normally because nearly every deck includes some recursion in this format.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Metagames shift. If you're at the top, people will counter you, so you need things to counter their counters.
my meta has people play multiple decks (generally 3 decks some have less and some have more) so I am not to worried about someone building a deck strictly to beat my deck.
My other deck wins turn one quite often, so not too worried about that either. If they get to play a single land (if that) chances are they won't have many answers that early.
It's not about building one just to beat your deck. It's about just including a few, still good in other circumstances, cards. Hermit Druid decks started falling quickly after everyone included gravehate, and gravehate is nice to have normally because nearly every deck includes some recursion in this format.
true almost every deck does, and my meta has a lot of grave play decks.
I force people to deal with my forces very often. Make them waste a lot of resources, then play patriarch's bidding. (I may eventually get a living death, as i feel i am the ones with the most forces in the graveyard and have to board wipes often.
I thought my ARCUM DAGSSON deck was finished, then I saw the statue and the flash land.
Gotta find some cuts now....
You are playing arcum, cut an Island for Emergency zone.
When i played Arcum i actually was running 27 lands. I was mana screwed once. (Had over 300 games with that deck and even came in first place at a league. (With wins anyway, but i got the least votes for best deck. Don;t pit prizes o the line if you want people to play for fun.
In terms of each card in the 99 being the obvious choice and being incontrovertible moving forward, I think anyone who makes that sort of claim into perpetuity is probably wrong, at least in the most pedantic ways of understanding this question.
In terms of the deck doing what you want it to, sure. That's a different thing, and it comes from synergy and efficient plays more than anything else. It can be improved, but I think we all know that feeling when you're like 'awww yes, that's doing exactly what I want it to do'. I've pretty much got to that point with Nissa, but I struggle to think of any other decks that I've built that are quite there yet.
In terms of each card in the 99 being the obvious choice and being incontrovertible moving forward, I think anyone who makes that sort of claim into perpetuity is probably wrong, at least in the most pedantic ways of understanding this question.
In terms of the deck doing what you want it to, sure. That's a different thing, and it comes from synergy and efficient plays more than anything else. It can be improved, but I think we all know that feeling when you're like 'awww yes, that's doing exactly what I want it to do'. I've pretty much got to that point with Nissa, but I struggle to think of any other decks that I've built that are quite there yet.
well having the 99 is NEVER going to happen. With use getting around (i dunno) 200 new cards every few months, there is a chance you will get better versions of cards for your deck. But there is also a chance you won't get a new card you need for months or even years. Where is the kiki-jiki that does not force you to sac at end of combat?
Just because you get new cards does not mean you will get the ones you need. My Dragon deck is pretty much done, i see very little way to improve and the niche cards i need might never be printed, EVER. My Jhoira deck, same thing. I doubt we are going to get a new version of Sol ring (1 mana tap for 2, comes into play untapped) Or a functional reprint of Lotus petal (0, comes into play untapped, tap sac for any color.) Without these niche cards, Jhoira is done. (And those functional reprints would just make winning turn 1 easier. I can already do so easily, so doing so easier is scary.
I mean I guess there's decks out there that are pretty much solved, so yeah there's that. Waiting for a functional Sol Ring reprint seems a waste of time, I don't think we'll see anything like that again. That being said, surely there's other bits and pieces that get released here and there that make you want to take a deck into different directions, right? Although I guess there's no need to fix what already works if you're winning T1.
When it comes to EDH some decks can indeed be completed, I have one that pretty much is, and another that while i did alter it recently, didn't really need the change, it worked fine without.
So anyone else ever complete a deck? Get a deck to teh point where it felt as though there was no where left to go? For me, there are a few decks I am working on that actually have a limitation on what can be added., they will officially be done until we return to ravnica yet again. (Which hopefully will not be for a long time. I am tired of ravnica.)
What does it matter?
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
But generally I'd say yes for my Doran EDH, I know what I want it to do, I don't look to rework the deck in any way after multiple adjustments, now I'm only looking towards new sets offering anything strictly better (new Oketra is getting a spot)
Within the normal, broader constraints of "as good of a deck as possible for X commander"...well, only for a particular meta at a particular time in magic' history. And even then, no one can realistically play enough reps with a deck to have a high degree of confidence that they've perfected it. I mean, you can get close-ish if you play it a lot. Close enough that it probably doesn't make much of a difference.
To really be confident you've perfected the deck down to the last card, you'd probably need to write a program to bash decks against each other for millions of reps or something. And even assuming you could program optimal play, I have no idea how you'd program multiplayer politics.
Pros spend tons of time bashing decks against each other, and their decklists still have differences between each other, even at high-level competition. And that's with 60 cards, duplicates, and a well-established meta. For commander? Seems unlikely. But you can get close enough.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
This post reminds me that Lin Sivvi is the perfect commander to build for fun games with a couple of players finding their groove. It can be reasonably optimized to appease your inner-spike, but the corre of it will remain fairly unchanged, even under-powered by today's standards as Rebels aren't a tribe to see any extra play. And being in mono-W puts a definite cap on your overall effectiveness. Great concept deck for players in such a meta, or going into an unknown meta.
Sorry to derail the thread. Just wanted to make a mental note to myself.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
In terms of EDH, i'd consider most of them to be finished within the constraints i've set (i.e. contains cards i already have and isn't needed for legacy).
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
I also think that sometimes a card comes out that fits your deck better than another card.
I would never call any deck of mine to be in a fixed state... I am always open to updates.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
On phasing:
My other deck wins turn one quite often, so not too worried about that either. If they get to play a single land (if that) chances are they won't have many answers that early.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
A deck can never be truly finished, only enjoyed for it's magnificence in a moment of time.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Pending how long you play it and the level you've arrived you, of course. It's only natural that you review new cards that come out to see if they're going to make the cut, but once you've reached that point the odds are that they won't.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
While I would agree, i am sure there are decks that have never been upgraded due to never needing to. In most cases, if a deck is "complete" it is most likely due to each set not releasing a new card for said deck. My dragon almost got no upgrades form the newset block, but Rhythm of the Wild and Sarkhan the masterless were great additions. (Only took me like an hour each to figure out what card to remove to add them)
I do however not think there will be another card for the deck for a while. So until they release another great card that my deck really needs, it's done.
as for my Jhoira deck, the newest set is Dominaria (Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain) and until they release another 0 costing mana rock, there is little chance she will be upgraded. (But when decks consistently win turn 1, there is little room to upgrade)
It's not about building one just to beat your deck. It's about just including a few, still good in other circumstances, cards. Hermit Druid decks started falling quickly after everyone included gravehate, and gravehate is nice to have normally because nearly every deck includes some recursion in this format.
On phasing:
true almost every deck does, and my meta has a lot of grave play decks.
I force people to deal with my forces very often. Make them waste a lot of resources, then play patriarch's bidding. (I may eventually get a living death, as i feel i am the ones with the most forces in the graveyard and have to board wipes often.
Gotta find some cuts now....
You are playing arcum, cut an Island for Emergency zone.
When i played Arcum i actually was running 27 lands. I was mana screwed once. (Had over 300 games with that deck and even came in first place at a league. (With wins anyway, but i got the least votes for best deck. Don;t pit prizes o the line if you want people to play for fun.
In terms of the deck doing what you want it to, sure. That's a different thing, and it comes from synergy and efficient plays more than anything else. It can be improved, but I think we all know that feeling when you're like 'awww yes, that's doing exactly what I want it to do'. I've pretty much got to that point with Nissa, but I struggle to think of any other decks that I've built that are quite there yet.
well having the 99 is NEVER going to happen. With use getting around (i dunno) 200 new cards every few months, there is a chance you will get better versions of cards for your deck. But there is also a chance you won't get a new card you need for months or even years. Where is the kiki-jiki that does not force you to sac at end of combat?
Just because you get new cards does not mean you will get the ones you need. My Dragon deck is pretty much done, i see very little way to improve and the niche cards i need might never be printed, EVER. My Jhoira deck, same thing. I doubt we are going to get a new version of Sol ring (1 mana tap for 2, comes into play untapped) Or a functional reprint of Lotus petal (0, comes into play untapped, tap sac for any color.) Without these niche cards, Jhoira is done. (And those functional reprints would just make winning turn 1 easier. I can already do so easily, so doing so easier is scary.