You already accept a number of format specific rules which don't exist in any.other format, so why yet up in arms over this specific one?
Because this specific one doesn’t hold to the declared criteria for banning. Why is this fact being completely ignored, even by the CAD apparently? Every argument in this thread leveled against wishes fails when held to the actual, official reasons for banning. It would make more sense to try out the wishes and then, if any are problematic, ban the offenders. But don’t preban them. The irony of Rule 13 and the apparent hypocrisy that led to it is why I said anything at all. I applaud others in this thread who have done such a superb job of countering emotional arguments with logic and explaining why wishes should be a relevant part of EDH.
Because this specific one doesn’t hold to the declared criteria for banning. Why is this fact being completely ignored, even by the CAD apparently? Every argument in this thread leveled against wishes fails when held to the actual, official reasons for banning. It would make more sense to try out the wishes and then, if any are problematic, ban the offenders. But don’t preban them. The irony of Rule 13 and the apparent hypocrisy that led to it is why I said anything at all. I applaud others in this thread who have done such a superb job of countering emotional arguments with logic and explaining why wishes should be a relevant part of EDH.
Well we have already established that the rules which define the format (exactly 100 different cards, color identity) only extend to the deck building phase. If you want wishes with no intervention then you have to concede that I can get any card that isn't banned. Doing this clearly violates the spirit of the deck building restrictions, unless you think that the RC should step in and make their own errata. Then we are back to the issue of needing a formal sideboard during sanctioned play, which must now be defined.
If you want to argue the actual philosophy as it applies to wishes, then it would fall under creating undesirable game states when players spend five minutes digging through their collection for that silver bullet.
Yes you wont get a legal deck with 45 cards and 15 cards sideboard but you also wont get a legal deck with 60 cards and 20 cards sideboard. So The sideboard is part of the deck construction just because you dont use it in g1 doesn't mean you wont in g2. Just as a wishboard will be part of the deck construction rule if it exists limiting the maximum number of cards you can put in. So I think it very well breaks the 100 card rule by expanding it in to a 100 cards + A maximum of WB number cards, that is something you factor in when building a deck. Sure your Maindeck is still 100 cards but your maindeck in the case of wishboards/sideboards is just one part of your overall deck.
"A Commander deck must contain exactly 100 cards, including the Commander." not a "Commandermaindeck must contain exactly 100 cards" for me is already a sign that there are no sideboards in this format.
If I knew nothing about Rule 13, there would be no reason to think that I couldn't use a Wish to get the appropriate card from my trade binder since a game of Commander is clearly an Unsanctioned event. What we are asking for is to make that happen, but clarify exactly how it will work to avoid confusion.
If you don't allow someone to get any card they can stated on the wish you are essentially doing the same as the RC, making a special rule just for the wishes. "Clarifying exactly hot it will work to avoid confusion" is the same thing they want to achive with rule 13 and if you don't know about rule 13 but don't know about the clarification it will still boil down to get anything the card states.
The oracle on fractured powerstone (at least to me) is the same as rule 13 it is to clarify what to do in the event that the ruled thing occurs, and in both cases it is it does nothing.
The reason it doesn't work is because the game it is played with isn't the that is used in Commander, just like Paliano, the High City isn't meant for this format.
and apparently for the RC wishes arent mean't for commander. They don't like neither the wishboard solution nor the get anything solution. So just like wizards did to specify that Fractured powerstone does nothing instead of rolling the die, the RC ruled (not with oracle but with rules) that they do nothing. (That is actually done on purpose as there IS something that happens when a planar die is rolled rules wise specifically the planeswalk symbol as it activates the planeswalk ability and there is no rules governing that if that ability (which doesn't exist since its not a planechase game) gets triggered. Sure everybody would be guessing that it does nothing so they would play as if it didn't happen but tecnically you need that oracle to not get into weird ruling issues)
EDIT:
...it's the Tournament Rules. That's it. In any other setting Wishes are, by the rules of the game, allowed to get any card you own from outside the game. Except in EDH, where they have format-specific errata that says they do nothing.
What is so different from a tournament Ruling to a format specific ruling as a tournament is just a type of format anyways.
Because this specific one doesn’t hold to the declared criteria for banning. Why is this fact being completely ignored, even by the CAD apparently? Every argument in this thread leveled against wishes fails when held to the actual, official reasons for banning. It would make more sense to try out the wishes and then, if any are problematic, ban the offenders. But don’t preban them. The irony of Rule 13 and the apparent hypocrisy that led to it is why I said anything at all. I applaud others in this thread who have done such a superb job of countering emotional arguments with logic and explaining why wishes should be a relevant part of EDH.
Well we have already established that the rules which define the format (exactly 100 different cards, color identity) only extend to the deck building phase. If you want wishes with no intervention then you have to concede that I can get any card that isn't banned. Doing this clearly violates the spirit of the deck building restrictions, unless you think that the RC should step in and make their own errata. Then we are back to the issue of needing a formal sideboard during sanctioned play, which must now be defined.
If you want to argue the actual philosophy as it applies to wishes, then it would fall under creating undesirable game states when players spend five minutes digging through their collection for that silver bullet.
Don't forget that with the rate at which buyouts happen, the price for these cards will spike if they unbanned them. If ever given functionality, it would certainly be a test phase. There is then the chance that things don't work out and an actual banning or returning them to their current functionality happens. Then the card prices drops like a stone, players lose value, and "feel bads" follow.
The likelihood of this occurring is high, otherwise the RC would have tried to enable them. Defining a side/wish board AND rules for wishes is too large a concession to make at this time for the ~10 cards that are impacted. They likely don't see the benefit of enabling all of this and then backtracking it after 6 months to a year.
A bad reason, in the same way having a rule that says "Effects can't prevent players from drawing cards" because the other half of Leovold, Emissary of Trest is fun is a bad rule.
As for the cards that predate the rule... oh wow a terrible punisher version of Jace's Ingenuity and probably the worst of the large Eldrazi. Cool. I can continue never seeing either of those cards ever played. Good thing the RC carved out a space to protect these two random cards, or else we might have had to make due with real, less awful cards..
Great! Quit claiming
Because of a format-specific rule that serves no purpose except to prevent Wishes from working
because that is demonstrably false.
They are not banned for a reason. You don't think that reason matters due to the power of the cards it keeps unbanned. It is still a reason.
Because this specific one doesn’t hold to the declared criteria for banning. Why is this fact being completely ignored, even by the CAD apparently? Every argument in this thread leveled against wishes fails when held to the actual, official reasons for banning. It would make more sense to try out the wishes and then, if any are problematic, ban the offenders. But don’t preban them. The irony of Rule 13 and the apparent hypocrisy that led to it is why I said anything at all. I applaud others in this thread who have done such a superb job of countering emotional arguments with logic and explaining why wishes should be a relevant part of EDH.
They do not fit the ban criteria, thats why they are not banned. I find it hilarious someone is trying to undercut an argument as "emotional" when its about a game. All format specific rules for EDH are subjective, pretending logic is the correct way to determine this is against the whole point. Also there is no irony, its a completely separate set of rules.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Because this specific one doesn’t hold to the declared criteria for banning. Why is this fact being completely ignored, even by the CAD apparently? Every argument in this thread leveled against wishes fails when held to the actual, official reasons for banning. It would make more sense to try out the wishes and then, if any are problematic, ban the offenders. But don’t preban them. The irony of Rule 13 and the apparent hypocrisy that led to it is why I said anything at all. I applaud others in this thread who have done such a superb job of countering emotional arguments with logic and explaining why wishes should be a relevant part of EDH.
Well we have already established that the rules which define the format (exactly 100 different cards, color identity) only extend to the deck building phase. If you want wishes with no intervention then you have to concede that I can get any card that isn't banned. Doing this clearly violates the spirit of the deck building restrictions, unless you think that the RC should step in and make their own errata. Then we are back to the issue of needing a formal sideboard during sanctioned play, which must now be defined.
Why is anyone acting like having wishes conform to the Commander format would be complicated and unwieldy? It’s so intuitive a caveman can understand it. Restating arguments made against wishing that have already been debunked in this thread doesn’t make them any more correct. Ignoring better arguments doesn’t make them incorrect. At this point, arguments against wishes in Commander are starting to seem more like false pretense rather than what I thought were false, worst-case-scenario assumptions (seen below).
If you want to argue the actual philosophy as it applies to wishes, then it would fall under creating undesirable game states when players spend five minutes digging through their collection for that silver bullet.
I’m convinced that this is the Chicken Little argument that echoed in the ears of the CAD. It’s just as reasonable to assume that wishing will take about as long as tutoring. Should tutors be banned? Of course not. Imo, the CAD and people like us, will come to more productive conclusions if they assume the best about Commander players rather than the worst.
“100 cards" for me is already a sign that there are no sideboards in this format.
As stated, there needn’t be a wishboard. Though most players using wishes would probably use the term anyways and even assemble them just to be efficient and respectful.
and apparently for the RC wishes arent mean't for commander.
They’re meant for Magic as a whole, including Commander. Comparing wishes to cards (like Fractured Powerstone and Conspiracies) which have specific effects that were knowingly, deliberately created to work solely within their respective formats, is a false equivalency. The correct comparison for Planechase and Conspiracy/draft specific cards would be to Commander specific cards such as Command Tower. Wishes have nothing to do with this that debate and vice-versa.
No, it's not. In the same way "hmm I might be randomly struck by a falling meteor" is not a reason to avoid taking a walk outside. It is so small and inconsequential that it is beyond notice. It is literally a waste of time to even bother considering the merits.
Ergo, if saving 2 bad cards from being banned is the only "reason," I continue to stand by my statement: there is no reason.
Why is anyone acting like having wishes conform to the Commander format would be complicated and unwieldy? It’s so intuitive a caveman can understand it.
If you go for the get anything you want argument sure it is intuitive. But seeing as there are multiple proposed ways of wishboard rules it seems like that is not intuitive at all.
Why is anyone acting like having wishes conform to the Commander format would be complicated and unwieldy
It isn't complicated or unwieldy IMO. If you go for the wishboard plan add construction rules for that done. If you go for the get anything you want get rid of rule 13.
The bigger questions are 1. Is it neccesary for the format to be able to do either of those things (In case of spirit of Commander (which is rather vague anyways), Powerlevel, enjoyment for the majority)
2. In case of Wishboard reconstructing the deckbuilding rules for the inclusion of 12 Cards but not other cards (Batlle of wits), why prioritise one ver the other.
3. In case of get anything you want do you want possible longer search times, get people the ability to search for duplicates banned cards etc. and all that just to be hold in place of a social contract which is different for each group. (Pick up games would become worse with this)
3. Is it neccesary for all people to adapt to a wish working/nonworking system, or is houseruling enough? Why one over another?
It’s just as reasonable to assume that wishing will take about as long as tutoring.
Depends If wishboards are a thing I do think wishes will be faster than tutoring (Less cards to choose from smaller pile to look through) if you are able to get anything you want it will most likely be longer (More cards to choose from larger pile/binder to look trough). And from expierience (far from factual evidence, but noteworthy nonetheless) with actually playing both with a wishboard in commander and wishes in unsanctioned (albeit non commander) the get anything takes up way way more time than a regular tutor.
They’re meant for Magic as a whole
such are the first two un sets, and the ante cards in the beginning you dont have to shoehorn everything in. Also just because stuff has been made specifically for one format does not mean they were only designed for that format with that format in mind. Fractured Powerstone is a legacy legal card and it does other things to (just like draft matters cards and ante cards), just like some of the wishes do more than wish.
Also battle of wits is older than the commander format so basically even though that is probably not what they intended they made a format to invalidate a card that was "meant for magic as a whole". Same with stuff like Accumulated Knowledge.
Edit:
To me finances are also almost a nonissue, as a spike in price or a devaluing of cards hardly affect gameplay. Sure if a card spikes and you cant play it because you can't afford it makes deckbuilding more difficult, but since that can happen to any card not just wishes, and wishes not being on the reserved list I hardly think that that is/will become an issue.
At this point, this thread is less about the update in general and more about wishes, so I'm locking this. Please continue the discussion in the Wish thread.
Because this specific one doesn’t hold to the declared criteria for banning. Why is this fact being completely ignored, even by the CAD apparently? Every argument in this thread leveled against wishes fails when held to the actual, official reasons for banning. It would make more sense to try out the wishes and then, if any are problematic, ban the offenders. But don’t preban them. The irony of Rule 13 and the apparent hypocrisy that led to it is why I said anything at all. I applaud others in this thread who have done such a superb job of countering emotional arguments with logic and explaining why wishes should be a relevant part of EDH.
Well we have already established that the rules which define the format (exactly 100 different cards, color identity) only extend to the deck building phase. If you want wishes with no intervention then you have to concede that I can get any card that isn't banned. Doing this clearly violates the spirit of the deck building restrictions, unless you think that the RC should step in and make their own errata. Then we are back to the issue of needing a formal sideboard during sanctioned play, which must now be defined.
If you want to argue the actual philosophy as it applies to wishes, then it would fall under creating undesirable game states when players spend five minutes digging through their collection for that silver bullet.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
"A Commander deck must contain exactly 100 cards, including the Commander." not a "Commandermaindeck must contain exactly 100 cards" for me is already a sign that there are no sideboards in this format.
If you don't allow someone to get any card they can stated on the wish you are essentially doing the same as the RC, making a special rule just for the wishes. "Clarifying exactly hot it will work to avoid confusion" is the same thing they want to achive with rule 13 and if you don't know about rule 13 but don't know about the clarification it will still boil down to get anything the card states.
The oracle on fractured powerstone (at least to me) is the same as rule 13 it is to clarify what to do in the event that the ruled thing occurs, and in both cases it is it does nothing.
and apparently for the RC wishes arent mean't for commander. They don't like neither the wishboard solution nor the get anything solution. So just like wizards did to specify that Fractured powerstone does nothing instead of rolling the die, the RC ruled (not with oracle but with rules) that they do nothing. (That is actually done on purpose as there IS something that happens when a planar die is rolled rules wise specifically the planeswalk symbol as it activates the planeswalk ability and there is no rules governing that if that ability (which doesn't exist since its not a planechase game) gets triggered. Sure everybody would be guessing that it does nothing so they would play as if it didn't happen but tecnically you need that oracle to not get into weird ruling issues)
EDIT:
What is so different from a tournament Ruling to a format specific ruling as a tournament is just a type of format anyways.
Don't forget that with the rate at which buyouts happen, the price for these cards will spike if they unbanned them. If ever given functionality, it would certainly be a test phase. There is then the chance that things don't work out and an actual banning or returning them to their current functionality happens. Then the card prices drops like a stone, players lose value, and "feel bads" follow.
The likelihood of this occurring is high, otherwise the RC would have tried to enable them. Defining a side/wish board AND rules for wishes is too large a concession to make at this time for the ~10 cards that are impacted. They likely don't see the benefit of enabling all of this and then backtracking it after 6 months to a year.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
They are not banned for a reason. You don't think that reason matters due to the power of the cards it keeps unbanned. It is still a reason.
They do not fit the ban criteria, thats why they are not banned. I find it hilarious someone is trying to undercut an argument as "emotional" when its about a game. All format specific rules for EDH are subjective, pretending logic is the correct way to determine this is against the whole point. Also there is no irony, its a completely separate set of rules.
Why is anyone acting like having wishes conform to the Commander format would be complicated and unwieldy? It’s so intuitive a caveman can understand it. Restating arguments made against wishing that have already been debunked in this thread doesn’t make them any more correct. Ignoring better arguments doesn’t make them incorrect. At this point, arguments against wishes in Commander are starting to seem more like false pretense rather than what I thought were false, worst-case-scenario assumptions (seen below).
I’m convinced that this is the Chicken Little argument that echoed in the ears of the CAD. It’s just as reasonable to assume that wishing will take about as long as tutoring. Should tutors be banned? Of course not. Imo, the CAD and people like us, will come to more productive conclusions if they assume the best about Commander players rather than the worst.
As stated, there needn’t be a wishboard. Though most players using wishes would probably use the term anyways and even assemble them just to be efficient and respectful.
They’re meant for Magic as a whole, including Commander. Comparing wishes to cards (like Fractured Powerstone and Conspiracies) which have specific effects that were knowingly, deliberately created to work solely within their respective formats, is a false equivalency. The correct comparison for Planechase and Conspiracy/draft specific cards would be to Commander specific cards such as Command Tower. Wishes have nothing to do with this that debate and vice-versa.
Ergo, if saving 2 bad cards from being banned is the only "reason," I continue to stand by my statement: there is no reason.
If you go for the get anything you want argument sure it is intuitive. But seeing as there are multiple proposed ways of wishboard rules it seems like that is not intuitive at all.
It isn't complicated or unwieldy IMO. If you go for the wishboard plan add construction rules for that done. If you go for the get anything you want get rid of rule 13.
The bigger questions are 1. Is it neccesary for the format to be able to do either of those things (In case of spirit of Commander (which is rather vague anyways), Powerlevel, enjoyment for the majority)
2. In case of Wishboard reconstructing the deckbuilding rules for the inclusion of 12 Cards but not other cards (Batlle of wits), why prioritise one ver the other.
3. In case of get anything you want do you want possible longer search times, get people the ability to search for duplicates banned cards etc. and all that just to be hold in place of a social contract which is different for each group. (Pick up games would become worse with this)
3. Is it neccesary for all people to adapt to a wish working/nonworking system, or is houseruling enough? Why one over another?
Depends If wishboards are a thing I do think wishes will be faster than tutoring (Less cards to choose from smaller pile to look through) if you are able to get anything you want it will most likely be longer (More cards to choose from larger pile/binder to look trough). And from expierience (far from factual evidence, but noteworthy nonetheless) with actually playing both with a wishboard in commander and wishes in unsanctioned (albeit non commander) the get anything takes up way way more time than a regular tutor.
such are the first two un sets, and the ante cards in the beginning you dont have to shoehorn everything in. Also just because stuff has been made specifically for one format does not mean they were only designed for that format with that format in mind. Fractured Powerstone is a legacy legal card and it does other things to (just like draft matters cards and ante cards), just like some of the wishes do more than wish.
Also battle of wits is older than the commander format so basically even though that is probably not what they intended they made a format to invalidate a card that was "meant for magic as a whole". Same with stuff like Accumulated Knowledge.
Edit:
To me finances are also almost a nonissue, as a spike in price or a devaluing of cards hardly affect gameplay. Sure if a card spikes and you cant play it because you can't afford it makes deckbuilding more difficult, but since that can happen to any card not just wishes, and wishes not being on the reserved list I hardly think that that is/will become an issue.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg