Ive been playing magic for about 2 weeks and im loving it. Already spend about 800 euro in deck making. Made 2 standard decks and 3 commander decks.
But i let aliexpress made some proxys of gaea's cradle, mox diamond, chains of mephtotalis (dont know how to probounce that, let alone spell it).
Buying these cards alone would triple the price of each deck i play and not give the makers of mtg any more money.
Im not selling the proxys or playing in tournaments.
The problem is, some1 told me a select group of people at the fnm events i go to dont let people with proxys play without the content of buying the cards themself. They dont mind if you play with 30 hand written on paper cards. As long you buy them.
I have no intention to purchase 3000-4000 euro worth of cards when in a few year (i believe) they will be worthless because china will be so much better at copying them you cant tell what is real and what not.
I dont mind not playing with some overpowered cards but most people at the events i go to are playing with multiple 1-3 thousand euro decks.
Ps. The only way to see they are fake is by doing a lighttest on them
So my question is, should i just lie to every1 i play with that i purchased the real cards and im not playing with proxys?
second question: do you mind hand written proxys, and if you dont, do you mind if some1 you know, who is using real looking proxys, is passing them off as real with the intend of staying up with the power level and not selling them.
If they don't want proxies and you lie to them and they find out about it, it's probably going to do some serious damage to your chance to be friendly with these people. Yes, proxies are a heated debate, but at the end of the day, it's just a game with no prizes on the line. Unless missing those expensive cards makes it impossible to compete (it almost certainly doesn't) I'd find alternatives. The rewards and risks just aren't on the same level.
Also fakes have been around for a while, it doesn't diminish the value of the real cards. It just makes having a paper trail and an expert opinion more important.
My gut reaction is telling me its personally fine, especially if you are very slowly saving up for it, such as 3 euros a week or 12 euros a month or 144 euros a year. That by the time it would take you to afford these, assuming low end price of 3000 euros, only 20.83 years to accomplish. Which hey, if more important things come up and your are tight for cash, you got that 3000 saved up euros to spend.
I'm not quite sure why you are even asking the community if it's okay to lie about cards. You should already know the answer to this. Rather ask yourself what's forcing you into such a thinking in the first place, hence the community could come up with some solutions which might suit your problem.
As for the second question: I don't mind proxies, even if someone is crushing a table with a proxied deck. As long as it was a cool gaming experience I'm fine with it (there is much more to a game than just slamming cards around, at least for me).
I would just find a new play group. Ask around and befriend those in your local community who do not care if you use proxies and just set up time to play at someones house over beers or dinner or whatever.
If a commander group is making you feel so pressured that you are considering lying about proxies, then it probably isn't a commander group worth playing in if you care about that kind of stuff.
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To be honest, EDH is a for funsies format to me (and most people i know).
The difference between a 3000 euro deck and a 1000 euro deck is usually quite minor. And the difference between a 50 euro deck and a 1000 euro deck is not small, but when built right, is still highly competitive. Like seriously, chains, diamond aren't that amazing. cradle is good, but moreso if you actually go out of your way to break it.
I'm fine with proxies (as in i don't care either way), but i'm against actual deception. If i were you, i'd look for another play group who's willing to play with proxies, while at the same time just sleeving up a budget-style deck that can hold its own. When you say events, are these tournaments? or not?
No you shouldn't lie and say that the counterfeits are real. You shouldn't be buying counterfeits to begin with. That's actively harmful to the game. It's also worth noting that playing with counterfeits in a DCI sanctioned event (like an FNM) can have very real repercussions to the store running the events. There's a chance that you do major harm to someone's business if you're playing counterfeits in that setting.
You can proxy every card in a deck down to the basic lands and I'm still happy to play with you. If I learn that you're trying to pass counterfeit cards as real, that's the line where I'll refuse to play with you any further.
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Liars are poor sports.
If winning is more important to someone than their integrity, I can't trust them not to cheat in other ways, and I have no interest in playing with them.
I've played against people with proxies, and it's no big deal in a casual game; I don't demand that they have the actual card. I personally won't play a proxy of any card I don't own at least one actual copy of. That's just my personal rule, and I don't push it on anyone else.
But if we organized an event and there was a rule (any rule, not just about proxies vs. real cards), I'd expect all players to abide by the rules - otherwise they are cheating. Does it suck that some cards are out of my budget? Sure. But that's the nature of the game.
When you play against anyone who uses cards that take control of yours, someone is going to find out eventually.
No necessarily. From what I've read on various forums, a number of folks play with counterfeit cards & get away with it. With double sleeves, good luck noticing a high-quality counterfeit card. I suspect some of the people I've played with do this.
Personally, for EDH, I only use proxies for cards I own but want copies for multiple decks & only ones that can't be confused for genuine MTG cards. I make a point of letting folks know I'm running proxies beforehand, though a lot the people I play casually with don't bother. Proxies are common in my experience.
However, also note that you don't need super-expensive cards to do well in even competitive EDH. I own a Mana Crypt but I'm missing duals & most of the legal Moxen (I've only got Chrome Mox) as well as other high-end options. Regardless, I've frequently won local EDH tournaments where some people run no-budget full-on cEDH decks.
I personally do not use proxies, but have no problem if a player wants to use a couple in a given deck.
I think there are a few best practices.
1.) It’s best to proxy something you only own one copy of. You can use a proxy for say Vedalken Orrey or Sensei’s Divining Top. If you only own one card, a good idea is to have a “proxy binder” where you keep all the cards you proxy in multiple decks. That way when you cast the proxy, you can quickly replace it with a card from your binder, then replace it after the game. The checklist for the flip planeswalkers from Origins work well for this.
2.) Don’t proxy fast/huge mana. I get proxying something like Chains because it is a super unique effect that is absurdly expensive. But proxying a Grim Monolith is unnecessary. I would even argue against Mox Diamond since you have Mox Opal, Mox Amber or Chrome Mox to replace that effect for more reasonable costs that just require a specific deck strategy.
Its just in friday night magic "events" that i play.
With the first group i played with i told them upfront i was playing with a few proxies in my deck and then said they were fine with it.
After the game the wondered where my proxies were but 1 was already on the board (geae's).
I thought proxies were just fake cards (since thats how i googled them and got on aliexpress)
But after the game they told that at a certain table the people playing there disliked fakes, they didnt mind if i had a few hand written cards with the intend of buying it after saving or after testing it in the deck.
Tbh, i see this as a fun hobby and already spend atleast 500 euro on it.
However, None of it went to the magic company since i bought them second hand so i dont believe it affects the company. I am also a believer that the prices will drop once genuine fake cards will appear and with that in mind i dont believe buying any 100+ cards. But also dont wanna be behind on mana and be 1-2 turns slower then the rest of the table cause they placed down about 1000 euro worth of cards in the first 2 turns.
Its just in friday night magic "events" that i play.
With the first group i played with i told them upfront i was playing with a few proxies in my deck and then said they were fine with it.
After the game the wondered where my proxies were but 1 was already on the board (geae's).
I thought proxies were just fake cards (since thats how i googled them and got on aliexpress)
But after the game they told that at a certain table the people playing there disliked fakes, they didnt mind if i had a few hand written cards with the intend of buying it after saving or after testing it in the deck.
Tbh, i see this as a fun hobby and already spend atleast 500 euro on it.
None of it went to the magic company since i bought them second hand so the card company doesnt suffer from it.
Thanks for the many responses
You have a terrible grasp of what is and is not ok. Just because you spent some money on the game doesnt give you cart blanch to have proxies( counterfeights) and then say others are over reacting.
Buying fake cards 100% hurts wotc, the makers of Magic
I have no problem with proxies personally. I get the ‘detriment to Wizards’ thing, but that puts these cards out of my grasp too - I just don’t proxy because I don’t see the need (see below). The requirement to own these cards is still incredibly restrictive, and it would definitely stop me from even attempting this, as my available funds for my hobby are very much limited. That being said, I’m not your meta.
I’m gonna say you shouldn’t lie to them. It won’t end well. That being said if they require you own these cards, that speaks to me of well established players who have access to these sort of high power staples. If that’s the case you might be more comfortable finding a lower powered meta that you can compete with without the deception. That’s definitely the crux here - for these sort of cards I can understand not having that sort of money, but lying to make it work is not ok, and at some point it’ll bite you in the ass - when they find out, IF they still want to play with you, they’ll never trust you again, not really.
I’m also going to reiterate that these cards are strong, yes, but they’re far from essential to making a strong deck capable of holding its own and winning games. Cradle now has a functional reprint in Growing rites of Itlimoc, and we’re in a really good era of commander, where there is a wealth of strategy, a wealth of powerful cards being printed, and plenty of ways to make them work for you. It’s a fallacy that these older, expensive cards are necessary to win games. They can, of course, but you can do just fine without them, and you don’t need to spend a lot of money to make a strong deck. Feel free to post your lists on the site here, and the community would be more than happy to help you come up with ways to win games on a shoestring.
I have no problem with proxies personally. I get the ‘detriment to Wizards’ thing, but that puts these cards out of my grasp too - I just don’t proxy because I don’t see the need (see below). The requirement to own these cards is still incredibly restrictive, and it would definitely stop me from even attempting this, as my available funds for my hobby are very much limited. That being said, I’m not your meta.
I’m gonna say you shouldn’t lie to them. It won’t end well. That being said if they require you own these cards, that speaks to me of well established players who have access to these sort of high power staples. If that’s the case you might be more comfortable finding a lower powered meta that you can compete with without the deception. That’s definitely the crux here - for these sort of cards I can understand not having that sort of money, but lying to make it work is not ok, and at some point it’ll bite you in the ass - when they find out, IF they still want to play with you, they’ll never trust you again, not really.
I’m also going to reiterate that these cards are strong, yes, but they’re far from essential to making a strong deck capable of holding its own and winning games. Cradle now has a functional reprint in Growing rotes of Itlimoc, and we’re in a really good era of commander, where there is a wealth of strategy, a wealth of powerful cards being printed, and plenty of ways to make them work for you. It’s a fallacy that these older, expensive cards are necessary to win games. They can, of course, but you can do just fine without them, and you don’t need to spend a lot of money to make a strong deck. Feel free to post your lists on the site here, and the community would be more than happy to help you come up with ways to win games on a shoestring.
While I don't agree with your statement 100%, specifically about alternatives, I really can't find any other way to say it best and applaud the effort you put into writing such a concise post. Kudos.
I have no problem with proxies personally. I get the ‘detriment to Wizards’ thing, but that puts these cards out of my grasp too - I just don’t proxy because I don’t see the need (see below). The requirement to own these cards is still incredibly restrictive, and it would definitely stop me from even attempting this, as my available funds for my hobby are very much limited. That being said, I’m not your meta.
I’m gonna say you shouldn’t lie to them. It won’t end well. That being said if they require you own these cards, that speaks to me of well established players who have access to these sort of high power staples. If that’s the case you might be more comfortable finding a lower powered meta that you can compete with without the deception. That’s definitely the crux here - for these sort of cards I can understand not having that sort of money, but lying to make it work is not ok, and at some point it’ll bite you in the ass - when they find out, IF they still want to play with you, they’ll never trust you again, not really.
I’m also going to reiterate that these cards are strong, yes, but they’re far from essential to making a strong deck capable of holding its own and winning games. Cradle now has a functional reprint in Growing rotes of Itlimoc, and we’re in a really good era of commander, where there is a wealth of strategy, a wealth of powerful cards being printed, and plenty of ways to make them work for you. It’s a fallacy that these older, expensive cards are necessary to win games. They can, of course, but you can do just fine without them, and you don’t need to spend a lot of money to make a strong deck. Feel free to post your lists on the site here, and the community would be more than happy to help you come up with ways to win games on a shoestring.
While I don't agree with your statement 100%, specifically about alternatives, I really can't find any other way to say it best and applaud the effort you put into writing such a concise post. Kudos.
Thanks! And believe me, if I’m spending any money on a hobby it’s not going to be on fakes. I’m just well aware this is a casual format, so I’m not going to be too hard on someone who wants to play these cards. I can understand why someone would do this, as price and availability make them incredibly restrictive to acquire.
I fully stand by the second part of my statement though. I think recent printings have done an admirable job of leveling the playing field in terms of the idea of having to spend money to win games. There are still games where this happens, but it’s definitely not a necessity for success in this format. There’s no way I’d play EDH if it required substantial monetary input to win or have fun.
I'm going to be a goodie-little-two-shoes here and state what I think is obvious. Generally speaking, it's wrong to lie to people.
Yes, there are such things as white lies, but since we're talking about something that most people agree that rather or not it matters depends on the individual, lying to someone who cares about such things would be wrong.
I don't care about WotC (in this case), they make enough money and I don't think using proxies hurts them that much. Also, I don't personally care if people use proxies; this is a game played to have fun, but I personally appreciate it when people give me the heads up of "Oh by the way, I have a few proxies in my deck", but I wouldn't get mad if they didn't. But if someone told me that all of their cards were real, and I somehow found out some of them were proxies... I wouldn't want to be friends with that person any more purely on principle.
Why? Because if someone is willing to lie about something as little as that, who knows what else they might be lying about. It's just a bad precedent.
Now, I don't want to make you feel bad or feel like I'm attacking you, I'm just explaining what I think and how I feel about the matter. For what it's worth, I understand your dilemma, and I don't understand people who care so much about rather or not someone is using proxies. Considering how expensive of a hobby magic is, even if you're not using the super-competitive cards, it can feel exclusionary to say "you can only play with real cards" when the real cards cost so much to get. It's the equivalent of saying something like "you have to be at least this rich to play" and that is the biggest aspect of this game I dislike. So I'm all for people using proxies. Just don't lie to me. I don't think that's an unreasonable request.
I'm going to be a goodie-little-two-shoes here and state what I think is obvious. Generally speaking, it's wrong to lie to people.
Yes, there are such things as white lies, but since we're talking about something that most people agree that rather or not it matters depends on the individual, lying to someone who cares about such things would be wrong.
I don't care about WotC (in this case), they make enough money and I don't think using proxies hurts them that much. Also, I don't personally care if people use proxies; this is a game played to have fun, but I personally appreciate it when people give me the heads up of "Oh by the way, I have a few proxies in my deck", but I wouldn't get mad if they didn't. But if someone told me that all of their cards were real, and I somehow found out some of them were proxies... I wouldn't want to be friends with that person any more purely on principle.
Why? Because if someone is willing to lie about something as little as that, who knows what else they might be lying about. It's just a bad precedent.
Now, I don't want to make you feel bad or feel like I'm attacking you, I'm just explaining what I think and how I feel about the matter. For what it's worth, I understand your dilemma, and I don't understand people who care so much about rather or not someone is using proxies. Considering how expensive of a hobby magic is, even if you're not using the super-competitive cards, it can feel exclusionary to say "you can only play with real cards" when the real cards cost so much to get. It's the equivalent of saying something like "you have to be at least this rich to play" and that is the biggest aspect of this game I dislike. So I'm all for people using proxies. Just don't lie to me. I don't think that's an unreasonable request.
Magic isn't really pay to play though. At least casually. You do not need to proxy expensive cards, there are 20,000 + unique game pieces. There is a substitute for everything. It might be a 7 out of 10 instead of a 10 out of 10, but this is a casual format, and you shouldn't "need" to play any cards at all, because there is nothing to win.
I don't think it's fair to say the game is casual so use fake cards. If it's casual why do you need to use fake cards? Spell swindle is no mana drain. But it costs less then a buck, is super fun, and you wont make ANYONE feel ANY KIND of way casting a real card, as opposed to playing a proxied mana drain on someones real card. Especially if using proxies directly help you win the game.
I am also a believer that the prices will drop once genuine fake cards will appear and with that in mind i dont believe buying any 100+ cards.
This is wrong in so many levels I can even describe.
1- The prices of old and expansive cards will never drop because Reserved List (no more printing of them).
2- Old and expansive cards still rising prices, despite the quantity and quality of fake cards increasing.
3- With the number of fake cards increasing, the punishment for using in non-casual events is increasing too.
4- Using only fake cards of expansive ones isn't guarantee to win games. Knowlegde of the game counts a lot.
5- If you want to use proxy cards, at least use a altered art, or frame. Make sure to make differs from the original.
On a side note, I would never enter in any hobby and spend thousands of euros or dollars (or whatever currency) in two weeks.
I don't mind you if you have 100% proxies in your deck. I actually do that from time to time. Get a set of cue cards card right the card names and some reminder on it to test if I enjoy playing the deck. If yes, I usually try to get the cards. If not, well get an eraser and try another deck with the cue cards.
That being said I understand how it feels to play magic on a tight budget. IF your playgroup is fine with proxies well go for it... If your playgroup isn't fine find a budget solution. Especially in commander there can be some powerful and weird decks on a shoestring budget.
I would however not lie to people. In general don't try to lie too often that isn't good for the character.
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I am also a believer that the prices will drop once genuine fake cards will appear and with that in mind i dont believe buying any 100+ cards.
This is wrong in so many levels I can even describe.
1- The prices of old and expansive cards will never drop because Reserved List (no more printing of them).
2- Old and expansive cards still rising prices, despite the quantity and quality of fake cards increasing.
3- With the number of fake cards increasing, the punishment for using in non-casual events is increasing too.
It's quite plausible that the MTG market will crash sooner or later, whether because of counterfeit cards or because broader transition to digital games, virtual reality, etc. WotC's current focus on products like Arena indicates that they see the writing on the wall. Genuine cards on the Reserved List may retain some value as collector's items indefinitely, at least for as long as collectibles matter, but tons of us only or primarily enjoy playing. Counterfeits work as well as originals for that purpose.
Magic has only existed a quarter of a century. The bubble might last another 25 years, but it's highly speculative to expect it to endure forever. If I had to bet, I'd say there'll be a massive price drop within a decade.
Unless someone gives you cards, or loans you their decks... isn't it though? Maybe I don't understand what you mean here, but you'd at least have to buy 60 cards to PLAY the game, no?
You do not need to proxy expensive cards, there are 20,000 + unique game pieces. There is a substitute for everything. It might be a 7 out of 10 instead of a 10 out of 10, but this is a casual format, and you shouldn't "need" to play any cards at all, because there is nothing to win.
I agree... to a point. I think it depends on context. You're right, for every competitive-level card, there's at least 1 cheaper alternative, if not several. But it ultimately depends on your playgroup, and what playgroups you have access to. I personally don't like building super-competitive decks, but I have a few just in case I encounter a group who use decks built to win on turns 6~8 (EDH). I wouldn't bother building those decks if it wasn't for the fact that I hate sitting down to play magic... but I don't get to because my opponents are playing decks that win too fast or lock me out.
It's a more complicated issue than "if you can't afford the expensive cards, use cheaper ones". But more importantly, even getting a collection of the cheaper cards to play the game can be a bit pricey compared to some other hobbies.
I don't think it's fair to say the game is casual so use fake cards. If it's casual why do you need to use fake cards? Spell swindle is no mana drain. But it costs less then a buck, is super fun, and you wont make ANYONE feel ANY KIND of way casting a real card, as opposed to playing a proxied mana drain on someones real card. Especially if using proxies directly help you win the game.
I wasn't making the claim that MTG as a whole is a casual game. Actually, rather or not it's casual has nothing to do with my point. I care about having fun and not excluding people. If allowing proxies lets someone play the game the way they want and have fun without bankrupting them, as long as they aren't a jerk about it, what's wrong with that? But I feel we're in "let's agree to disagree" territory here.
If someone is using proxies, I wouldn't assume it was because they wanted to win. I would assume it was because they wanted to play with cards that they couldn't afford, or didn't want to buy without making sure they were worth having in their deck. I don't think it's fair to assume that all they care about is winning, and it doesn't bother me when someone wins because of a proxy card. But maybe that's just me.
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But i let aliexpress made some proxys of gaea's cradle, mox diamond, chains of mephtotalis (dont know how to probounce that, let alone spell it).
Buying these cards alone would triple the price of each deck i play and not give the makers of mtg any more money.
Im not selling the proxys or playing in tournaments.
The problem is, some1 told me a select group of people at the fnm events i go to dont let people with proxys play without the content of buying the cards themself. They dont mind if you play with 30 hand written on paper cards. As long you buy them.
I have no intention to purchase 3000-4000 euro worth of cards when in a few year (i believe) they will be worthless because china will be so much better at copying them you cant tell what is real and what not.
I dont mind not playing with some overpowered cards but most people at the events i go to are playing with multiple 1-3 thousand euro decks.
Ps. The only way to see they are fake is by doing a lighttest on them
So my question is, should i just lie to every1 i play with that i purchased the real cards and im not playing with proxys?
second question: do you mind hand written proxys, and if you dont, do you mind if some1 you know, who is using real looking proxys, is passing them off as real with the intend of staying up with the power level and not selling them.
Also fakes have been around for a while, it doesn't diminish the value of the real cards. It just makes having a paper trail and an expert opinion more important.
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As for the second question: I don't mind proxies, even if someone is crushing a table with a proxied deck. As long as it was a cool gaming experience I'm fine with it (there is much more to a game than just slamming cards around, at least for me).
If a commander group is making you feel so pressured that you are considering lying about proxies, then it probably isn't a commander group worth playing in if you care about that kind of stuff.
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The difference between a 3000 euro deck and a 1000 euro deck is usually quite minor. And the difference between a 50 euro deck and a 1000 euro deck is not small, but when built right, is still highly competitive. Like seriously, chains, diamond aren't that amazing. cradle is good, but moreso if you actually go out of your way to break it.
I'm fine with proxies (as in i don't care either way), but i'm against actual deception. If i were you, i'd look for another play group who's willing to play with proxies, while at the same time just sleeving up a budget-style deck that can hold its own. When you say events, are these tournaments? or not?
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Do not buy fakes.
I repeat, do not buy fakes.
It's damaging to the game, and the hobby that we all love.
I'm kind of appalled both that you would ask, and the fact that no one here has forcefully condemned the practice.
And you can easily build good decks and live without Gaea's Cradle, Mox Diamond, and Chains of Mephistopheles. Most of us, probably, do without these cards just fine.
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You can proxy every card in a deck down to the basic lands and I'm still happy to play with you. If I learn that you're trying to pass counterfeit cards as real, that's the line where I'll refuse to play with you any further.
If winning is more important to someone than their integrity, I can't trust them not to cheat in other ways, and I have no interest in playing with them.
I've played against people with proxies, and it's no big deal in a casual game; I don't demand that they have the actual card. I personally won't play a proxy of any card I don't own at least one actual copy of. That's just my personal rule, and I don't push it on anyone else.
But if we organized an event and there was a rule (any rule, not just about proxies vs. real cards), I'd expect all players to abide by the rules - otherwise they are cheating. Does it suck that some cards are out of my budget? Sure. But that's the nature of the game.
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"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
No necessarily. From what I've read on various forums, a number of folks play with counterfeit cards & get away with it. With double sleeves, good luck noticing a high-quality counterfeit card. I suspect some of the people I've played with do this.
Personally, for EDH, I only use proxies for cards I own but want copies for multiple decks & only ones that can't be confused for genuine MTG cards. I make a point of letting folks know I'm running proxies beforehand, though a lot the people I play casually with don't bother. Proxies are common in my experience.
However, also note that you don't need super-expensive cards to do well in even competitive EDH. I own a Mana Crypt but I'm missing duals & most of the legal Moxen (I've only got Chrome Mox) as well as other high-end options. Regardless, I've frequently won local EDH tournaments where some people run no-budget full-on cEDH decks.
I think there are a few best practices.
1.) It’s best to proxy something you only own one copy of. You can use a proxy for say Vedalken Orrey or Sensei’s Divining Top. If you only own one card, a good idea is to have a “proxy binder” where you keep all the cards you proxy in multiple decks. That way when you cast the proxy, you can quickly replace it with a card from your binder, then replace it after the game. The checklist for the flip planeswalkers from Origins work well for this.
2.) Don’t proxy fast/huge mana. I get proxying something like Chains because it is a super unique effect that is absurdly expensive. But proxying a Grim Monolith is unnecessary. I would even argue against Mox Diamond since you have Mox Opal, Mox Amber or Chrome Mox to replace that effect for more reasonable costs that just require a specific deck strategy.
3.) Don’t lie about proxies.
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With the first group i played with i told them upfront i was playing with a few proxies in my deck and then said they were fine with it.
After the game the wondered where my proxies were but 1 was already on the board (geae's).
I thought proxies were just fake cards (since thats how i googled them and got on aliexpress)
But after the game they told that at a certain table the people playing there disliked fakes, they didnt mind if i had a few hand written cards with the intend of buying it after saving or after testing it in the deck.
Tbh, i see this as a fun hobby and already spend atleast 500 euro on it.
However, None of it went to the magic company since i bought them second hand so i dont believe it affects the company. I am also a believer that the prices will drop once genuine fake cards will appear and with that in mind i dont believe buying any 100+ cards. But also dont wanna be behind on mana and be 1-2 turns slower then the rest of the table cause they placed down about 1000 euro worth of cards in the first 2 turns.
Thanks for the many responses
You have a terrible grasp of what is and is not ok. Just because you spent some money on the game doesnt give you cart blanch to have proxies( counterfeights) and then say others are over reacting.
Buying fake cards 100% hurts wotc, the makers of Magic
come correct
I’m gonna say you shouldn’t lie to them. It won’t end well. That being said if they require you own these cards, that speaks to me of well established players who have access to these sort of high power staples. If that’s the case you might be more comfortable finding a lower powered meta that you can compete with without the deception. That’s definitely the crux here - for these sort of cards I can understand not having that sort of money, but lying to make it work is not ok, and at some point it’ll bite you in the ass - when they find out, IF they still want to play with you, they’ll never trust you again, not really.
I’m also going to reiterate that these cards are strong, yes, but they’re far from essential to making a strong deck capable of holding its own and winning games. Cradle now has a functional reprint in Growing rites of Itlimoc, and we’re in a really good era of commander, where there is a wealth of strategy, a wealth of powerful cards being printed, and plenty of ways to make them work for you. It’s a fallacy that these older, expensive cards are necessary to win games. They can, of course, but you can do just fine without them, and you don’t need to spend a lot of money to make a strong deck. Feel free to post your lists on the site here, and the community would be more than happy to help you come up with ways to win games on a shoestring.
While I don't agree with your statement 100%, specifically about alternatives, I really can't find any other way to say it best and applaud the effort you put into writing such a concise post. Kudos.
Thanks! And believe me, if I’m spending any money on a hobby it’s not going to be on fakes. I’m just well aware this is a casual format, so I’m not going to be too hard on someone who wants to play these cards. I can understand why someone would do this, as price and availability make them incredibly restrictive to acquire.
I fully stand by the second part of my statement though. I think recent printings have done an admirable job of leveling the playing field in terms of the idea of having to spend money to win games. There are still games where this happens, but it’s definitely not a necessity for success in this format. There’s no way I’d play EDH if it required substantial monetary input to win or have fun.
Yes, there are such things as white lies, but since we're talking about something that most people agree that rather or not it matters depends on the individual, lying to someone who cares about such things would be wrong.
I don't care about WotC (in this case), they make enough money and I don't think using proxies hurts them that much. Also, I don't personally care if people use proxies; this is a game played to have fun, but I personally appreciate it when people give me the heads up of "Oh by the way, I have a few proxies in my deck", but I wouldn't get mad if they didn't. But if someone told me that all of their cards were real, and I somehow found out some of them were proxies... I wouldn't want to be friends with that person any more purely on principle.
Why? Because if someone is willing to lie about something as little as that, who knows what else they might be lying about. It's just a bad precedent.
Now, I don't want to make you feel bad or feel like I'm attacking you, I'm just explaining what I think and how I feel about the matter. For what it's worth, I understand your dilemma, and I don't understand people who care so much about rather or not someone is using proxies. Considering how expensive of a hobby magic is, even if you're not using the super-competitive cards, it can feel exclusionary to say "you can only play with real cards" when the real cards cost so much to get. It's the equivalent of saying something like "you have to be at least this rich to play" and that is the biggest aspect of this game I dislike. So I'm all for people using proxies. Just don't lie to me. I don't think that's an unreasonable request.
Magic isn't really pay to play though. At least casually. You do not need to proxy expensive cards, there are 20,000 + unique game pieces. There is a substitute for everything. It might be a 7 out of 10 instead of a 10 out of 10, but this is a casual format, and you shouldn't "need" to play any cards at all, because there is nothing to win.
I don't think it's fair to say the game is casual so use fake cards. If it's casual why do you need to use fake cards? Spell swindle is no mana drain. But it costs less then a buck, is super fun, and you wont make ANYONE feel ANY KIND of way casting a real card, as opposed to playing a proxied mana drain on someones real card. Especially if using proxies directly help you win the game.
1- The prices of old and expansive cards will never drop because Reserved List (no more printing of them).
2- Old and expansive cards still rising prices, despite the quantity and quality of fake cards increasing.
3- With the number of fake cards increasing, the punishment for using in non-casual events is increasing too.
4- Using only fake cards of expansive ones isn't guarantee to win games. Knowlegde of the game counts a lot.
5- If you want to use proxy cards, at least use a altered art, or frame. Make sure to make differs from the original.
On a side note, I would never enter in any hobby and spend thousands of euros or dollars (or whatever currency) in two weeks.
Hightower | Vial/Thrasios | Mogis | Grenzo | Endrek |
Tatyova|Sisay|Zurgo|Breya|Chisei|Marchesa|Olivia|KaradorPauper | Pauper |
Legacy|4fun|4fun|Modern|Frontier|StandardI don't mind you if you have 100% proxies in your deck. I actually do that from time to time. Get a set of cue cards card right the card names and some reminder on it to test if I enjoy playing the deck. If yes, I usually try to get the cards. If not, well get an eraser and try another deck with the cue cards.
That being said I understand how it feels to play magic on a tight budget. IF your playgroup is fine with proxies well go for it... If your playgroup isn't fine find a budget solution. Especially in commander there can be some powerful and weird decks on a shoestring budget.
I would however not lie to people. In general don't try to lie too often that isn't good for the character.
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It's quite plausible that the MTG market will crash sooner or later, whether because of counterfeit cards or because broader transition to digital games, virtual reality, etc. WotC's current focus on products like Arena indicates that they see the writing on the wall. Genuine cards on the Reserved List may retain some value as collector's items indefinitely, at least for as long as collectibles matter, but tons of us only or primarily enjoy playing. Counterfeits work as well as originals for that purpose.
Magic has only existed a quarter of a century. The bubble might last another 25 years, but it's highly speculative to expect it to endure forever. If I had to bet, I'd say there'll be a massive price drop within a decade.
Unless someone gives you cards, or loans you their decks... isn't it though? Maybe I don't understand what you mean here, but you'd at least have to buy 60 cards to PLAY the game, no?
I agree... to a point. I think it depends on context. You're right, for every competitive-level card, there's at least 1 cheaper alternative, if not several. But it ultimately depends on your playgroup, and what playgroups you have access to. I personally don't like building super-competitive decks, but I have a few just in case I encounter a group who use decks built to win on turns 6~8 (EDH). I wouldn't bother building those decks if it wasn't for the fact that I hate sitting down to play magic... but I don't get to because my opponents are playing decks that win too fast or lock me out.
It's a more complicated issue than "if you can't afford the expensive cards, use cheaper ones". But more importantly, even getting a collection of the cheaper cards to play the game can be a bit pricey compared to some other hobbies.
I wasn't making the claim that MTG as a whole is a casual game. Actually, rather or not it's casual has nothing to do with my point. I care about having fun and not excluding people. If allowing proxies lets someone play the game the way they want and have fun without bankrupting them, as long as they aren't a jerk about it, what's wrong with that? But I feel we're in "let's agree to disagree" territory here.
If someone is using proxies, I wouldn't assume it was because they wanted to win. I would assume it was because they wanted to play with cards that they couldn't afford, or didn't want to buy without making sure they were worth having in their deck. I don't think it's fair to assume that all they care about is winning, and it doesn't bother me when someone wins because of a proxy card. But maybe that's just me.