I don't really tolerate guilt trips. I cannot care about someone anymore when they try to use the fact that I care about them to their advantage. Even in the context of a card game that encourages vocal persuasion to get an edge, that actually hurts me. So yeah, I can only hope the door doesn't hit that emotion abusing charlatan on the way out.
I’ve done this twice and felt justified both times in doing so.
First instance was with a budget Marwyn Elves deck facing some randoms with Animatou, Vaevictus Asmadi the Dire and 5 Colour Superfriends. There’s was a turn 3 Wrath of God to clear out a couple of dorks and Marwyn from the Animatou player, a turn 5 Crux of Fate from the same guy to knock out Vaevictus which hit me incidentally, then on my turn 6 I replayed Marwyn and a Boreal Druid with mana up for Heroic Intervention. I pass the turn to the Superfriends player, still with a resolved Bant Tamiyo and Elspeth Sun’s Champion, who proceeded to Fumigate with those being the only creatures on board. I cast Intervention in response and the Animatou player Negates it. At this point with no cards in hand and no board, I tried to reason with him about using that Negate on something more worthwhile since I’d likely be trying to stave off Tamiyo’s ultimate. He declined, so I scooped. The first wrath was understandable, the second a little less so but maybe he had no spot removal, however the third AND the counter was too much given the board state. So either the threat assessment was terrible, they had a hate boner for elves, or they didn’t want me at the table.
Second was a little more straightforward. I’d run a Yahenni deck against Krenko, Kami of the Crescent Moon group hug and Estrid Stax. The Estrid player resolved a turn 2 Rest in Peace followed by Solemnity. At this stage I gave it a couple of turns to see if there was an Chaos Warp or some bounce effect coming until Estrid dropped Stasis and that was it. This one I did get a little salty over and was rude about why he would open up his first game with this kind of deck when we discussed casual power levels beforehand, but we both play regularly in the same group now and laugh about the experience. Having your entire deck’s function shut down with no out for a long time (Scour from Existence) and then no ability play at all post Stasis wasn’t something I was willing to sit through on a deck’s first testing.
Both situations were miscalculations of the pod on power level and what had been discussed beforehand (apparently those £300+ control decks in the first case were their “weakest”), but they were also some of my earlier experiences in the format and have led me down the path of always running powerful decks with infinite wincons in them. It’s a shame but that’s what those experiences taught me. Have a powerful deck, make sub optimal plays to tone down its power, never have a weak deck that can’t compete if it needs to. I'm also surprised most of the reactions here are "baby temper tantrum" rather than realising its possibly the notion that the player doesn't like having their time wasted. You know, the reason why infinite combos and extra turn spam and Mindslaver effects are so unpopular?
I assume extremely stupid plays are setting up a combo.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
So, I definitely have seen some voltron decks scoop when you kill their general. I remember someone scooping to Song of the Dryads once. You know they have interaction to deal with it... they just feel like their whole game plane is ruined and that they cannot salvage a win. I think in that case I keep playing, but a lot of people scoop figuring they will not have fun sitting at the board not doing anything meaningful.
Yeah this kind of thing sucks. I was at low life, up against a guy with three or four 4/4 angel tokens just waiting for his turn to kill me. I draw Unflinching Courage and cast it on my 6/6 creature...since I had Rafiq of the Many out, this attack was going to gain me a ton of life.
I couldn't attack the angel token guy since he had Island Sanctuary out, so I look at my other opponent and say, "nothing personal but I need the life." He scoops on the attack so I deal no damage and get no life...I die on the other guy's turn. This kind of "tactical" scooping annoys me.
I would never play again with a person who scooped to stop me from gaining life. It is so petty.
Scooping to orevent triggers is assanine - as a player still in the game and unaffected, I tell the other player to take their triggers anyway (even if it mean I lose soon). One to shame the scooper, and two so others will grant me that courtesy some other time. Make no mistake - I am 100% in favor of doing everything you can to spite the player killing you, but only within the game.
That said, if I have been screwed on red the whole game, have done nothing, have only red cards in hand and am not having fun because I am not playing the game. When I windmill slam my mountain on the field and someone stripmines it ove a cradle - I will inform the table I scoop to that play. Not in advance, but if I am not going to get to play a game anyway, may as well actually not play a game.
That said, if I have been screwed on red the whole game, have done nothing, have only red cards in hand and am not having fun because I am not playing the game. When I windmill slam my mountain on the field and someone stripmines it ove a cradle - I will inform the table I scoop to that play. Not in advance, but if I am not going to get to play a game anyway, may as well actually not play a game.
I had that exact thing happen to me. I was down on mana already and missing either Red or Black (don't remember which). I finally got a Rakdos Signet only to have it blown up. The game had gone on long enough where I hadn't done anything and that play suggested I would continue not doing anything.
So, yeah, I agree that scooping to prevent triggers is not cool. But, I have scooped when I feel the game is over (for me at least). I do think there is a line but I also think it is fine if a player just feels it isn't worth continuing the game. Either it has dragged on long enough or they are out of resources or whatever.
I do think the situation described originally is an interesting one and I am with a couple people that if I am making a play, and that play doesn't actually kill someone, and they threaten to scoop anyway, I will likely make a point to go after them anyway. If it gets a player out of the game easier, I am all for it.
I have some amount of sympathy for scooping early (provided that the playgroup in question still enforces relevant triggers for the rest of the table), because I will scoop to cards like Scrambleverse or Thieves' Auction due to having previously lost moderately expensive cards as a result.
That being said, I don't really agree with the manipulation part of it. Either stick to your guns and scoop without the threats, or grit your teeth and play through it.
First instance was with a budget Marwyn Elves deck facing some randoms with Animatou, Vaevictus Asmadi the Dire and 5 Colour Superfriends. There’s was a turn 3 Wrath of God to clear out a couple of dorks and Marwyn from the Animatou player, a turn 5 Crux of Fate from the same guy to knock out Vaevictus which hit me incidentally, then on my turn 6 I replayed Marwyn and a Boreal Druid with mana up for Heroic Intervention. I pass the turn to the Superfriends player, still with a resolved Bant Tamiyo and Elspeth Sun’s Champion, who proceeded to Fumigate with those being the only creatures on board. I cast Intervention in response and the Animatou player Negates it.
I had people use a counter on my varchild, betrayer of kjeldor instead of keeping it for the player with Kess and 11 mana
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
This thread isn't intended to be about spite/tactical scoops. In the cases in question, the scoop-threatener would not have hurt the person causing them to scoop by scooping. The only threat seemed to be that they'd feel bad for causing the person to scoop.
...yeah, you would not make me feel bad by threatening to scoop. I'd probably just go 'Oh. Okay. Moving on...' and do the thing anyway if it was the sound play from my perspective. That said, never had the situation where someone threatened to scoop like that.
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X Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile W Ghosty Blinky Anafenza U Nezahal- Big, Blue and HERE! B Gonti Can Afford It R Etali, Primal 'Whatjusthappened?' G Polukranos Wants More Mana WU The Exalted Vizier Temmet WB Home, Athreos WR Basandra, Recursive Aggression WG Karametra, Momma of Lands UB Wrexial Eats Your Brains UR Arjun, the Mad Flame UG The Fable of Prime Speaker BR Hellbent, Malfegor Style BG Jarad, Death is Served RG Running Thromok WUB Varina and ALL the Zombies WUBYennett, the Odd Pain-Train WUR Zedruu the Furyhearted WUG Arcades' Strategy, Shmategy, Sausage and Spam WBR A Case of Mathas' Persistent F*ckery WBRLicia's League of Legendary Lifegain Layabouts WBG The Karador Advantage PackageWRG Gahiji Rattlesnake Collection UBR Jeleva... does... things UBG Damia's Just Deserts URG Yasova's Has More Power Than Sense BRG Wasitora, Bad Kitty WUBRBreya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs WUBG Tymna and Kydele, Extended Borrowing WURG Kynaios and Tiro, Landfall Impersonations WBRG Saskia Pet Card EnchantressUBRG Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation WUBRG Tazri's Amazing Allies
i made a tactical scoop last night actually. I think i did the right thing, and i don't think i heard anyone else whinge about it:
game 3, 1v1, and it was an extremely long and grindy game. There was a good 90+% chance that the other guy was gonna win (i had 1 card that'd 1-hit-kill my opponent through his soft-lock in my entire deck, and 2 tutors that can find it), and we were going to time. If we hit time, it counts as a loss to both players. I was already at 0-2 (basically out of contention for anything), he was at 2-0, so we went down to the last turn to see if i could find it - nope - so i just scooped.
...lucky bugger ended up the only 4-0 guy all night too.
I think the official rule for scooping in magic is that you always have the right to concede at any time. So if someone pulls the combo of ashnod's coupon + R&D's secret lair, targeting a coke in a nearby fridge in the shop, you get to concede before it resolves. In this case, the targets fizzle, since the player's gone from the game. Even if someone else is controlling your turn like under a mindslaver, i think the player can still concede 'over' that effect.
In EDH and other casual formats though, 99% of the time, the other players on the table will continue as if the effect had meaningfully resolved. So sword of light and shadow would resolve as if it hit, and so on.
I think having players scoop 'played' as a tactical divert for any effect isn't a very healthy thing for the group nor for the social cohesion of the group. If you call them on it and they scoop, it leaves feel-bads all around (mostly for the scooper). If you divert the effect, you empower that behaviour (making them more likely to do it again), and make you the bad guy to whoever you end up smacking instead (or possibly the rest of the table). It's probably best to either avoid playing with people with these sorts of tendencies, or to confront it. I think the long-term health of the group will benefit from working through/confronting it though.
DirkG, what happened afterwards? aftermath? How's the situation now (as in, is it repeating)?
I recall one quite funny house-rule we had here at one point (might be relevant) - There's an emblem that starts in play with:
"This emblem starts in control of the player who last controlled it (from the latest game(s)).
At the beginning of your upkeep, lose 1 life.
Whenever another player whines unfairly or otherwise gives off negative vibes to the table, that player loses 5 life (down to a minimum of 2 life), and gains control of this emblem"
(can't recall the exact wording) Made our games go from a moderate amount of whining about how winter orb is OP to people making more fun decks and taking everything a lot lighter overall.
DirkG, what happened afterwards? aftermath? How's the situation now (as in, is it repeating)?
We meet on Thursdays, so it's still 2 more days until we meet again. But more importantly it's like 20 people so I may easily not play either of those people again anyway. And I'm not sure how recurring it has been in the past.
Afterwards in the games, I basically outlined in post 9 - first time around, guy killed another player who I guess annoyed him the most, then functionally scooped by killing himself. Second time around, guy eventually agreed to my demands (and eventually won).
I'm not sure how either of them felt about the situation afterwards - the first guy seemed kind of pissed (which was, imo, pretty unreasonable - he was way ahead on mana and hand size going into that turn, attacking him was totally reasonable as he was definitely the threat imo) and the second guy seemed fine but then, he did ultimately win so probably no hard feelings there.
Will they pull the same stunts again? Not sure, I mean neither time really "worked out" for them (first guy ultimately killed himself after getting "revenge" I guess, second guy eventually kowtowed to my demands even if he won the game later, so the threat of scooping accomplished nothing).
What do the rules say about scooping? Can't you concede any time you please?
If Player A attacks me and in doing so would gain a critical amount of life and I concede to prevent that, then Player A overextended into a game option I had. It's not spite scooping it's literally a tactical scoop. Circumventing that option is the childish thing not the scooping. Think about it logically. The consensus is emotionally skewed because circumventing a scoop is an emotional response, not a legal one.
House rules that are discussed at a relevant time are okay I guess but riddle me this. What about scooping to an attack that would gain life and put the attacker at a Felidar Sovereign victory? Is this a spite scoop? Is this a tactical scoop?
Someone above mentioned letting a Helm of the Host resolve even though they and the table would lose. It was also mentioned that this action was to prove his word — I assume to set the tone of his word for future games and the politics involved in those games. This isn't a scoop scenario but the point remains. That some game actions or inactions set the tone for future games (with a regular group) and part of that is scooping tactically. You can't just lable everything a spite scoop or childish. Be sure you are trying to understand the scoop before being childish yourselves. Imho
I made the play you are referencing, but I definitely do not see it as tactical scooping. In that game, I was literally the only player who could respond and stop the whole table from dying. I offered to do it if the player who had put me to about 10 life would give me two untaps without killing me, but he refused the deal. At the point he refused the deal, if I counter the spell, for all of time that player will never take my word seriously. So I didn’t counter, and we all died on the spot. Now that player and the others at the table know if I say “I will take X action if you do Y,” they know I have the capacity to follow through, even if it means losing the game.
On the flip side, I would never threaten to scoop, nor scoop to prevent a player from gaining an advantage they have earned through their play. That doesn’t mean I won’t Swords their best creature, Strip their best land or block their big lifelinker and sac my blocker as I die. I’m throwing the last punch I can every time. I think that is how everyone should play, which is why I generally ask the table before we start if we will all agree to scoop at sorcery speed. I can only remember one time where someone actually said no, and only a handful of times when someone agreed and scooped anyway.
I also have a personal disdain of scooping prior to lethal damage. I will never do that unless it is a 1v1 situation where I am basically locked or dead next turn. Again, in a multiplayer game, I think it’s disrespectful to the other players to scoop when you are not dead. Often the only way to overcome a dominant player is to work together and scooping because you’re color-screwed or soft-locked just means that the leader has 40 damage they don’t have to deal, putting the other 2 players at a significant disadvantage. This especially bothers me because I usually get about 2 games of paper EDH per week. I want to play games, not non-games, and one player scooping before lethal damage greatly enhances the number of non-games.
My feeling is that if you’re taking it on the chin, sit there and take it like an adult. It happens to everyone from time to time. And also take the time to look at your hand full of uncastable spells and actually try to understand why. If you’re running 10 6+ mana cards with 34 lands and a color hungry deck with tons of colorless lands, you deserve to be miserable when your deck doesn’t function. It shouldn’t ruin my game when your deck is functioning as built.
Here is an example of why I think scooping at non lethal damage sucks:
I’m playing my Zedruu deck against two mill players and a Gonti deck. One of the mill players gets out the enchantment that mills all opponents for 2 when they draw. The other player had Phenax and Thousand-Year Elixir and a Consuming Abberation, so we were short on time. My only path I had to victory in the face of two mill decks was to cast Opalessence and kick a Rite of Replication on his enchantment and mill out the mill decks by drawing a billion cards. Since I knew the Mimeoplasm player also had Eldrazi in his deck (he could never mill out) and I needed to deal with the Abberation, I played Rest In Peace along with Opalessence. At 40 life and 60+ cards in library, 12 cards in hand and ~9 mana, he scooped because RiP “shuts down my deck.” This completely invalidated my path to victory I was halfway down. Once he scooped, Gonti also scooped because he couldn’t remove Phenax, and Phenax won in two turns because there wasn’t another player to mill.
I think there's times when "scooping at sorcery speed" is a bad rule. Case in point - someone casts expropriate and copies it 4 times. Do I want to sit through that for a .01% chance they don't win? Hell no. But I don't get an opportunity to scoop by the sorcery speed rule.
As far as tactical/spite scooping, it basically operates in the exact same way as the last-minute strip mine/swords/etc. It doesn't prevent you losing the game, but it lets people know that they shouldn't try to kill you unless they're prepared for you to do everything you can to hurt them on the way out. The only important question is whether the group thinks scooping is acceptable to use as a weapon, which I don't think has a right or wrong answer.
I've never said "If you do X, I'm going to scoop."
I have, however, said "If you do X, I will spend the rest of the game not trying to win, but throwing everything I have against you and you alone."
It's usually in response to incredibly stupid threat assessment and targeting my stuff/attacking me when someone else is the clear threat. If they are stupid, I tell the other players "Don't worry about me, I won't touch your stuff, and I won't try to win; I just want to punish this guy. I'll concede once he's dead." You follow through on something like that, and people start taking the threat seriously.
Muldrotha, the Gravetide-Player wanted to play Stasis and I threaten with the scoop. He was in no position to win the game any time soon and we were already playing like 2 hours. He has a graveyard value/goodstuff deck with no clear win condition other than using multiple etb effects to suck out the life of the table but his graveyard was already exiled multiple times before the attempt to play stasis. I just didn't want to sit there another 2 hours doing nothing. He doesn't play the card and the control-player (not me) won in the same round with his combo. End of story: we could play a second game that night.
I think there's times when "scooping at sorcery speed" is a bad rule. Case in point - someone casts expropriate and copies it 4 times. Do I want to sit through that for a .01% chance they don't win? Hell no. But I don't get an opportunity to scoop by the sorcery speed rule.
As far as tactical/spite scooping, it basically operates in the exact same way as the last-minute strip mine/swords/etc. It doesn't prevent you losing the game, but it lets people know that they shouldn't try to kill you unless they're prepared for you to do everything you can to hurt them on the way out. The only important question is whether the group thinks scooping is acceptable to use as a weapon, which I don't think has a right or wrong answer.
I mean sure, if someone has infinite turns or close to it, no problem if people scoop.
I definitely think that there is a major distinction between Swordsing a threat while dying and scooping before damage or to a Mindslaver/Sen Triplets activation. I’m all for making someone pay, but scooping to a lethal attack as “revenge” is petty. I liken it to someone losing a game of football in the World Cup and then going into the opposing locker room and injuring the opposing team’s players. All the plays should be in the field, not post-loss injuries.
I definitely think that there is a major distinction between Swordsing a threat while dying and scooping before damage or to a Mindslaver/Sen Triplets activation. I’m all for making someone pay, but scooping to a lethal attack as “revenge” is petty. I liken it to someone losing a game of football in the World Cup and then going into the opposing locker room and injuring the opposing team’s players. All the plays should be in the field, not post-loss injuries.
My point was that I think it's completely subjective whether you think swordsing a creature or scooping vs lifelink is bad sportsmanship. I think there are probably plenty of people who would think the swordsing is too. Both are technically legal. Both don't prevent you from losing the current game. I'd argue that any distinction between them is basically arbitrary since by all objective measures I can think of, they're equal. BUT - every group should decide for themselves how they feel. Personally I don't really care either way, although I think it's best etiquette to follow the rules I laid out earlier (warn in advance, leave them a way out, and establish the rules at the beginning if you plan to try it).
I definitely think that there is a major distinction between Swordsing a threat while dying and scooping before damage or to a Mindslaver/Sen Triplets activation. I’m all for making someone pay, but scooping to a lethal attack as “revenge” is petty. I liken it to someone losing a game of football in the World Cup and then going into the opposing locker room and injuring the opposing team’s players. All the plays should be in the field, not post-loss injuries.
My point was that I think it's completely subjective whether you think swordsing a creature or scooping vs lifelink is bad sportsmanship. I think there are probably plenty of people who would think the swordsing is too. Both are technically legal. Both don't prevent you from losing the current game. I'd argue that any distinction between them is basically arbitrary since by all objective measures I can think of, they're equal. BUT - every group should decide for themselves how they feel. Personally I don't really care either way, although I think it's best etiquette to follow the rules I laid out earlier (warn in advance, leave them a way out, and establish the rules at the beginning if you plan to try it).
Paying mana to play a spell before the combat damage step and extracting yourself from the game to harm another player are very easily distinguishable. One is obviously legal and the other is, as you say, “technically legal.” This already implies that you know it to be poor sportsmanship. Otherwise, why the need to qualify?
It’s simple. Your opponent used cards and mana to get into position to kill you. Any revenge of yours that uses cards and mana is fair. You using the meta-ability to concede the game to punish your opponent isn’t fighting fairly.
Another reference to football. Suppose in a tournament that the opposing team is winning 4-0. If they score one more goal, they advance to the next round on goal differential. There are 10 minutes left, so you are going to lose for sure. Are you OK with walking off the field and forfeiting the game so that they are punished for beating you? Technically, it’s legal. Also, obviously that is bad sportsmanship.
And another reason I hate this kind of crap is that these types of “I scoop to punish you” makes playgroups sit there and NEVER ATTACK until someone wins through a combo. How boring! It makes games take eons and people get extra salty.
The game does not differentiate between legal and "technically legal". It doesn't differentiate between game actions and "metagame actions". The rules are clear. That's not to say opinions are worthless but they are, at the end of the day, opinions. They are all, in a sense, fair. Fair in the same way that using cEDH decks at a casual table, or not allowing your opponents to take back minor misplays is, but still. Legal is legal. There isn't such a thing as pseudo-legal.
I don't understand football well enough to know if that's a real thing, but if it's legal it's legal. Seems like a bad rule if that's a rule though. And even then, 10 minutes to score 4 goals is really hard but it's not literally impossible. Any chance to win is always better than a spite scoop, even if your meta allows it.
That said, as far as this scenario - they aren't leaving a way out, or signaling to the other team that they're going to do it, or agreeing in advance that it is or isn't ok, so it goes against my personal opinion for what would be "good etiquette" for doing so. But that's just my opinion.
The "only combo wins" thing seems sort of spurious, I mean most games spite-scooping isn't even relevant since there aren't any important triggers to resolve, let alone important enough to make the strategy less viable. And even then, only the last point would matter. You might be motivated to nudge in the last point of damage rather than alpha strike depending on the deck I guess, but it hardly seems like it's going to ruin the entire meta.
I’m differentiating “bad sportsmanship” from “cheating” for a reason. There are many things that the rules of Magic do not prohibit that a decent person should not do. There is no game rule preventing you from intentionally calling your opponent “Dave” when you know his name is Andrew, for example. It’s totally legal to annoy your opponent this way. There’s no rule preventing 3 players from agreeing to kill “Dave” first every game to ensure he has a bad day. So some forms of bullying are legal. The game also doesn’t prevent you from scooping early. In all of these cases, it’s up to decent people to self-regulate the format to prevent scummy stuff from happening, which helps the culture around the format and grow the game.
I don't understand football well enough to know if that's a real thing, but if it's legal it's legal. Seems like a bad rule if that's a rule though. And even then, 10 minutes to score 4 goals is really hard but it's not literally impossible. Any chance to win is always better than a spite scoop, even if your meta allows it.
I believe in that scenario the implied alternative to forfeiting the game so that the other team doesn't get to 5 points is playing out the game and using those 10 minutes to trying your best to prevent that 5th point. Not a comeback.
I don't understand football well enough to know if that's a real thing, but if it's legal it's legal. Seems like a bad rule if that's a rule though. And even then, 10 minutes to score 4 goals is really hard but it's not literally impossible. Any chance to win is always better than a spite scoop, even if your meta allows it.
I believe in that scenario the implied alternative to forfeiting the game so that the other team doesn't get to 5 points is playing out the game and using those 10 minutes to trying your best to prevent that 5th point. Not a comeback.
Exactly. You should use play on the field to determine the result. Not saying “@$&! you” and walk off the field.
Edit: And to explain the rule, in FIFA if a team has fewer than 7 available players, the game ends in a forfeit. If 5 players fake injury and leave the pitch, the game ends. The score is recorded as 3-0, though in the example given, the score would read 4-0, but still deny the opponent the goal differential required to advance. All within the rules. And horrible sportsmanship.
The difference is between using in game resources versus utilizing game rules. To stretch an analogy, it's like metagaming in D&D. You as a player know the goblin's AC and hit points, but those are game abstractions that your character would not have knowledge of. Similarly, in EDH, tactical scooping or emotional blackmail whinge scooping is effectively you committing suicide in the game world
I dunno, it just rubs me the wrong way. I only scoop when I know I can't win or when I have to leave early.
The difference is between using in game resources versus utilizing game rules. To stretch an analogy, it's like metagaming in D&D. You as a player know the goblin's AC and hit points, but those are game abstractions that your character would not have knowledge of. Similarly, in EDH, tactical scooping or emotional blackmail whinge scooping is effectively you committing suicide in the game world
I dunno, it just rubs me the wrong way. I only scoop when I know I can't win or when I have to leave early.
This is part of why I dislike playing RPGs. I like my rules cut and dried - it's legal, or it isn't. I don't like this wishy-washy "I don't know, would your character REALLY do that?" crap.
When you lightning bolt their x/3 it's still game rules putting it in the graveyard. But even if you find some difference between them, at the end of the day they're both equally legal in the eyes of the law. I agree one feels lamer than the other, but that's strictly a subjective opinion. Note that this doesn't make it wrong. I would just encourage you to find an agreement with your playgroup before assuming they have the same opinion.
I think it's been years since I tactically scooped, maybe as many as five years, and probably a total of twice in the whole ~10 years I've been commandering. I usually don't bother because the advantage is pretty minimal and it's just not worth the people who will get personally offended about it.
The thing I find weird about the "whinge scoop" as you delightfully call it is that they actually have no power whatsoever in the exchange, they're just acting like they do. If they threatened to scoop when the other player really needed them not to, then I'd be less confused by the whole thing.
This is part of why I dislike playing RPGs. I like my rules cut and dried - it's legal, or it isn't. I don't like this wishy-washy "I don't know, would your character REALLY do that?" crap.
Actually, this is one of the reasons I prefer rules-lite RPGs that are more about narrative and roleplay than numbers and a literal textbook of mechanics. I just wanna work on my acting and improv chops and get unsober with my friends, not argue about whether or not dim lighting gives you disadvantage on your perception checks even if you have darkvision. I still mostly play D&D because it's largely the only game in my small town, but I digress.
I agree one feels lamer than the other, but that's strictly a subjective opinion. Note that this doesn't make it wrong. I would just encourage you to find an agreement with your playgroup before assuming they have the same opinion.
One definitely feels more exploitative than the other. Are emotional threats more acceptable than physical threats (ie, "I'm gonna bash your goddamn head in if you counter this")? They're both acts of violence and in my opinion have no place in a game. I've had a few people threaten to quit or abruptly quit when you focus on them, but it doesn't stop me and only encourages me to target them because I know there's a lower opportunity cost to do so. Indeed, there's a local manchild at my shop that everyone dislikes because he always does ***** like this. His commanders are Krenko, Sliver Overlord, and Edgar Markov yet he's mystified why people sometimes gang up on him and will sulk and pout about it until he just scoops. I almost always target him with an early Mind Twist because I know it's scoop city if I do. Maybe I'm just a high functioning sociopath.
First instance was with a budget Marwyn Elves deck facing some randoms with Animatou, Vaevictus Asmadi the Dire and 5 Colour Superfriends. There’s was a turn 3 Wrath of God to clear out a couple of dorks and Marwyn from the Animatou player, a turn 5 Crux of Fate from the same guy to knock out Vaevictus which hit me incidentally, then on my turn 6 I replayed Marwyn and a Boreal Druid with mana up for Heroic Intervention. I pass the turn to the Superfriends player, still with a resolved Bant Tamiyo and Elspeth Sun’s Champion, who proceeded to Fumigate with those being the only creatures on board. I cast Intervention in response and the Animatou player Negates it. At this point with no cards in hand and no board, I tried to reason with him about using that Negate on something more worthwhile since I’d likely be trying to stave off Tamiyo’s ultimate. He declined, so I scooped. The first wrath was understandable, the second a little less so but maybe he had no spot removal, however the third AND the counter was too much given the board state. So either the threat assessment was terrible, they had a hate boner for elves, or they didn’t want me at the table.
Second was a little more straightforward. I’d run a Yahenni deck against Krenko, Kami of the Crescent Moon group hug and Estrid Stax. The Estrid player resolved a turn 2 Rest in Peace followed by Solemnity. At this stage I gave it a couple of turns to see if there was an Chaos Warp or some bounce effect coming until Estrid dropped Stasis and that was it. This one I did get a little salty over and was rude about why he would open up his first game with this kind of deck when we discussed casual power levels beforehand, but we both play regularly in the same group now and laugh about the experience. Having your entire deck’s function shut down with no out for a long time (Scour from Existence) and then no ability play at all post Stasis wasn’t something I was willing to sit through on a deck’s first testing.
Both situations were miscalculations of the pod on power level and what had been discussed beforehand (apparently those £300+ control decks in the first case were their “weakest”), but they were also some of my earlier experiences in the format and have led me down the path of always running powerful decks with infinite wincons in them. It’s a shame but that’s what those experiences taught me. Have a powerful deck, make sub optimal plays to tone down its power, never have a weak deck that can’t compete if it needs to. I'm also surprised most of the reactions here are "baby temper tantrum" rather than realising its possibly the notion that the player doesn't like having their time wasted. You know, the reason why infinite combos and extra turn spam and Mindslaver effects are so unpopular?
I assume extremely stupid plays are setting up a combo.
On phasing:
Scooping to orevent triggers is assanine - as a player still in the game and unaffected, I tell the other player to take their triggers anyway (even if it mean I lose soon). One to shame the scooper, and two so others will grant me that courtesy some other time. Make no mistake - I am 100% in favor of doing everything you can to spite the player killing you, but only within the game.
That said, if I have been screwed on red the whole game, have done nothing, have only red cards in hand and am not having fun because I am not playing the game. When I windmill slam my mountain on the field and someone stripmines it ove a cradle - I will inform the table I scoop to that play. Not in advance, but if I am not going to get to play a game anyway, may as well actually not play a game.
So, yeah, I agree that scooping to prevent triggers is not cool. But, I have scooped when I feel the game is over (for me at least). I do think there is a line but I also think it is fine if a player just feels it isn't worth continuing the game. Either it has dragged on long enough or they are out of resources or whatever.
I do think the situation described originally is an interesting one and I am with a couple people that if I am making a play, and that play doesn't actually kill someone, and they threaten to scoop anyway, I will likely make a point to go after them anyway. If it gets a player out of the game easier, I am all for it.
That being said, I don't really agree with the manipulation part of it. Either stick to your guns and scoop without the threats, or grit your teeth and play through it.
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Nah, they are more like this:
I had people use a counter on my varchild, betrayer of kjeldor instead of keeping it for the player with Kess and 11 mana
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
game 3, 1v1, and it was an extremely long and grindy game. There was a good 90+% chance that the other guy was gonna win (i had 1 card that'd 1-hit-kill my opponent through his soft-lock in my entire deck, and 2 tutors that can find it), and we were going to time. If we hit time, it counts as a loss to both players. I was already at 0-2 (basically out of contention for anything), he was at 2-0, so we went down to the last turn to see if i could find it - nope - so i just scooped.
...lucky bugger ended up the only 4-0 guy all night too.
I think the official rule for scooping in magic is that you always have the right to concede at any time. So if someone pulls the combo of ashnod's coupon + R&D's secret lair, targeting a coke in a nearby fridge in the shop, you get to concede before it resolves. In this case, the targets fizzle, since the player's gone from the game. Even if someone else is controlling your turn like under a mindslaver, i think the player can still concede 'over' that effect.
In EDH and other casual formats though, 99% of the time, the other players on the table will continue as if the effect had meaningfully resolved. So sword of light and shadow would resolve as if it hit, and so on.
I think having players scoop 'played' as a tactical divert for any effect isn't a very healthy thing for the group nor for the social cohesion of the group. If you call them on it and they scoop, it leaves feel-bads all around (mostly for the scooper). If you divert the effect, you empower that behaviour (making them more likely to do it again), and make you the bad guy to whoever you end up smacking instead (or possibly the rest of the table). It's probably best to either avoid playing with people with these sorts of tendencies, or to confront it. I think the long-term health of the group will benefit from working through/confronting it though.
DirkG, what happened afterwards? aftermath? How's the situation now (as in, is it repeating)?
I recall one quite funny house-rule we had here at one point (might be relevant) - There's an emblem that starts in play with:
"This emblem starts in control of the player who last controlled it (from the latest game(s)).
At the beginning of your upkeep, lose 1 life.
Whenever another player whines unfairly or otherwise gives off negative vibes to the table, that player loses 5 life (down to a minimum of 2 life), and gains control of this emblem"
(can't recall the exact wording) Made our games go from a moderate amount of whining about how winter orb is OP to people making more fun decks and taking everything a lot lighter overall.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Afterwards in the games, I basically outlined in post 9 - first time around, guy killed another player who I guess annoyed him the most, then functionally scooped by killing himself. Second time around, guy eventually agreed to my demands (and eventually won).
I'm not sure how either of them felt about the situation afterwards - the first guy seemed kind of pissed (which was, imo, pretty unreasonable - he was way ahead on mana and hand size going into that turn, attacking him was totally reasonable as he was definitely the threat imo) and the second guy seemed fine but then, he did ultimately win so probably no hard feelings there.
Will they pull the same stunts again? Not sure, I mean neither time really "worked out" for them (first guy ultimately killed himself after getting "revenge" I guess, second guy eventually kowtowed to my demands even if he won the game later, so the threat of scooping accomplished nothing).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I made the play you are referencing, but I definitely do not see it as tactical scooping. In that game, I was literally the only player who could respond and stop the whole table from dying. I offered to do it if the player who had put me to about 10 life would give me two untaps without killing me, but he refused the deal. At the point he refused the deal, if I counter the spell, for all of time that player will never take my word seriously. So I didn’t counter, and we all died on the spot. Now that player and the others at the table know if I say “I will take X action if you do Y,” they know I have the capacity to follow through, even if it means losing the game.
On the flip side, I would never threaten to scoop, nor scoop to prevent a player from gaining an advantage they have earned through their play. That doesn’t mean I won’t Swords their best creature, Strip their best land or block their big lifelinker and sac my blocker as I die. I’m throwing the last punch I can every time. I think that is how everyone should play, which is why I generally ask the table before we start if we will all agree to scoop at sorcery speed. I can only remember one time where someone actually said no, and only a handful of times when someone agreed and scooped anyway.
I also have a personal disdain of scooping prior to lethal damage. I will never do that unless it is a 1v1 situation where I am basically locked or dead next turn. Again, in a multiplayer game, I think it’s disrespectful to the other players to scoop when you are not dead. Often the only way to overcome a dominant player is to work together and scooping because you’re color-screwed or soft-locked just means that the leader has 40 damage they don’t have to deal, putting the other 2 players at a significant disadvantage. This especially bothers me because I usually get about 2 games of paper EDH per week. I want to play games, not non-games, and one player scooping before lethal damage greatly enhances the number of non-games.
My feeling is that if you’re taking it on the chin, sit there and take it like an adult. It happens to everyone from time to time. And also take the time to look at your hand full of uncastable spells and actually try to understand why. If you’re running 10 6+ mana cards with 34 lands and a color hungry deck with tons of colorless lands, you deserve to be miserable when your deck doesn’t function. It shouldn’t ruin my game when your deck is functioning as built.
Here is an example of why I think scooping at non lethal damage sucks:
I’m playing my Zedruu deck against two mill players and a Gonti deck. One of the mill players gets out the enchantment that mills all opponents for 2 when they draw. The other player had Phenax and Thousand-Year Elixir and a Consuming Abberation, so we were short on time. My only path I had to victory in the face of two mill decks was to cast Opalessence and kick a Rite of Replication on his enchantment and mill out the mill decks by drawing a billion cards. Since I knew the Mimeoplasm player also had Eldrazi in his deck (he could never mill out) and I needed to deal with the Abberation, I played Rest In Peace along with Opalessence. At 40 life and 60+ cards in library, 12 cards in hand and ~9 mana, he scooped because RiP “shuts down my deck.” This completely invalidated my path to victory I was halfway down. Once he scooped, Gonti also scooped because he couldn’t remove Phenax, and Phenax won in two turns because there wasn’t another player to mill.
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As far as tactical/spite scooping, it basically operates in the exact same way as the last-minute strip mine/swords/etc. It doesn't prevent you losing the game, but it lets people know that they shouldn't try to kill you unless they're prepared for you to do everything you can to hurt them on the way out. The only important question is whether the group thinks scooping is acceptable to use as a weapon, which I don't think has a right or wrong answer.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I have, however, said "If you do X, I will spend the rest of the game not trying to win, but throwing everything I have against you and you alone."
It's usually in response to incredibly stupid threat assessment and targeting my stuff/attacking me when someone else is the clear threat. If they are stupid, I tell the other players "Don't worry about me, I won't touch your stuff, and I won't try to win; I just want to punish this guy. I'll concede once he's dead." You follow through on something like that, and people start taking the threat seriously.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
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Muldrotha, the Gravetide-Player wanted to play Stasis and I threaten with the scoop. He was in no position to win the game any time soon and we were already playing like 2 hours. He has a graveyard value/goodstuff deck with no clear win condition other than using multiple etb effects to suck out the life of the table but his graveyard was already exiled multiple times before the attempt to play stasis. I just didn't want to sit there another 2 hours doing nothing. He doesn't play the card and the control-player (not me) won in the same round with his combo. End of story: we could play a second game that night.
I mean sure, if someone has infinite turns or close to it, no problem if people scoop.
I definitely think that there is a major distinction between Swordsing a threat while dying and scooping before damage or to a Mindslaver/Sen Triplets activation. I’m all for making someone pay, but scooping to a lethal attack as “revenge” is petty. I liken it to someone losing a game of football in the World Cup and then going into the opposing locker room and injuring the opposing team’s players. All the plays should be in the field, not post-loss injuries.
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EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Paying mana to play a spell before the combat damage step and extracting yourself from the game to harm another player are very easily distinguishable. One is obviously legal and the other is, as you say, “technically legal.” This already implies that you know it to be poor sportsmanship. Otherwise, why the need to qualify?
It’s simple. Your opponent used cards and mana to get into position to kill you. Any revenge of yours that uses cards and mana is fair. You using the meta-ability to concede the game to punish your opponent isn’t fighting fairly.
Another reference to football. Suppose in a tournament that the opposing team is winning 4-0. If they score one more goal, they advance to the next round on goal differential. There are 10 minutes left, so you are going to lose for sure. Are you OK with walking off the field and forfeiting the game so that they are punished for beating you? Technically, it’s legal. Also, obviously that is bad sportsmanship.
And another reason I hate this kind of crap is that these types of “I scoop to punish you” makes playgroups sit there and NEVER ATTACK until someone wins through a combo. How boring! It makes games take eons and people get extra salty.
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I don't understand football well enough to know if that's a real thing, but if it's legal it's legal. Seems like a bad rule if that's a rule though. And even then, 10 minutes to score 4 goals is really hard but it's not literally impossible. Any chance to win is always better than a spite scoop, even if your meta allows it.
That said, as far as this scenario - they aren't leaving a way out, or signaling to the other team that they're going to do it, or agreeing in advance that it is or isn't ok, so it goes against my personal opinion for what would be "good etiquette" for doing so. But that's just my opinion.
The "only combo wins" thing seems sort of spurious, I mean most games spite-scooping isn't even relevant since there aren't any important triggers to resolve, let alone important enough to make the strategy less viable. And even then, only the last point would matter. You might be motivated to nudge in the last point of damage rather than alpha strike depending on the deck I guess, but it hardly seems like it's going to ruin the entire meta.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
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old thread
old thread
old thread
R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Exactly. You should use play on the field to determine the result. Not saying “@$&! you” and walk off the field.
Edit: And to explain the rule, in FIFA if a team has fewer than 7 available players, the game ends in a forfeit. If 5 players fake injury and leave the pitch, the game ends. The score is recorded as 3-0, though in the example given, the score would read 4-0, but still deny the opponent the goal differential required to advance. All within the rules. And horrible sportsmanship.
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emotional blackmailwhinge scooping is effectively you committing suicide in the game worldI dunno, it just rubs me the wrong way. I only scoop when I know I can't win or when I have to leave early.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
When you lightning bolt their x/3 it's still game rules putting it in the graveyard. But even if you find some difference between them, at the end of the day they're both equally legal in the eyes of the law. I agree one feels lamer than the other, but that's strictly a subjective opinion. Note that this doesn't make it wrong. I would just encourage you to find an agreement with your playgroup before assuming they have the same opinion.
I think it's been years since I tactically scooped, maybe as many as five years, and probably a total of twice in the whole ~10 years I've been commandering. I usually don't bother because the advantage is pretty minimal and it's just not worth the people who will get personally offended about it.
The thing I find weird about the "whinge scoop" as you delightfully call it is that they actually have no power whatsoever in the exchange, they're just acting like they do. If they threatened to scoop when the other player really needed them not to, then I'd be less confused by the whole thing.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Actually, this is one of the reasons I prefer rules-lite RPGs that are more about narrative and roleplay than numbers and a literal textbook of mechanics. I just wanna work on my acting and improv chops and get unsober with my friends, not argue about whether or not dim lighting gives you disadvantage on your perception checks even if you have darkvision. I still mostly play D&D because it's largely the only game in my small town, but I digress.
One definitely feels more exploitative than the other. Are emotional threats more acceptable than physical threats (ie, "I'm gonna bash your goddamn head in if you counter this")? They're both acts of violence and in my opinion have no place in a game. I've had a few people threaten to quit or abruptly quit when you focus on them, but it doesn't stop me and only encourages me to target them because I know there's a lower opportunity cost to do so. Indeed, there's a local manchild at my shop that everyone dislikes because he always does ***** like this. His commanders are Krenko, Sliver Overlord, and Edgar Markov yet he's mystified why people sometimes gang up on him and will sulk and pout about it until he just scoops. I almost always target him with an early Mind Twist because I know it's scoop city if I do. Maybe I'm just a high functioning sociopath.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
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