I have a friend who almost exclusively plays really annoying UGx decks where he makes a ton of mana with stuff like seedborn muse and wilderness reclamation or just plain old ramp, and then overwhelms the whole table in one turn.
Not combo per say, it's just sheer amount of spells or something broken like villainous wealth, with counterspells held up so we can't do anything about it. He's also a fan of looping seasons past and mystical tutor.
Is there a way to beat this kind of strategy in a fair fight? (ie not just yeeting him off the table as soon as possible). I have decks that can do that but it's not very rewarding.
I'm looking for strategies, specific commanders, whatever. Bonus points if it involves little or no blue for extra **** you factor.
The old untap during opponents turns, to basically take an extra..every players turn is something that I've been doing since I started playing commander. It's an oldie but a goodie.
The short answer is that it's always going to be tough to beat, unless your group really does clamp down and make them the archenemy from the word go.
That's why people need to mix it up rather than always going for the same color-pie. Punish them. The way the need to counter act this is by bringing a different deck..job done.
Note that they are playing blue and ramp, so land destruction would be effective if you have a clock (xenagos, aurelia, etc. ). However, I think spot removal and grave hate are good combinations to stop the bs. I play a mono green deck that does something similar to your deck. If someone nails my seedborne muse, I am hurting. Mortify, assassin's trophy, etc. are good ways to slow me down. If you're feeling evil, run discard too. Just back it up with a couple of hard to deal with threats to bring it home!
Blue/green is the best color combination. Don't try and solo him. Run spot removal (particularly creature removal) to keep his board clear so that other players can freely swing into him and pressure him into either losing or running less ramp.
As a requirement to that, be sure that your table understands card advantage, rather than just life total and board state, as a metric of who is winning. One player running rampant is a sign of either disproportionate deck value and degenerate combos (is he running ABU dual lands and Mana Drains in a casual group? If so tell him to heck off with that) or poor threat assessment. The guy with a full grip of cards, tons of mana, and an empty board state is just as threatening or moreso (and should draw hate appropriately) than the guy with an 11/11 hexproof lifelink trampler, three copies of Frost Titan, and an empty hand.
That said,
Black is the next best thing as long as you combine it with white or green for artifact/enchantment removal. Running effects like Mind Twist, Head Games, Identity Crisis, or Awaken the Erstwhile to trash his hand can slow him down a lot.
Efficient attackers like Taurean Mauler, Mold Adder (no joke, just remember those triggers!), Serra Ascendant, or Falkenrath Marauders are good for putting pressure on, combined with the aforementioned creature removal to keep his board clear.
If you take darrenhabib's advice and run color-specific hate, then consider also running 'loot' effects like Faithless Looting, Cathartic Reunion, Tormenting Voice, Azor's Gateway (don't worry about the flip thing, just treat it like any other loot effect), Jaya Ballard, and so on. These effects help you find the hate cards you need, or else trash them for better cards if they're not helpful in the current situation. Black of course gets a ton of tutors, card draw, and 'discard for power' effects that can accomplish something similar. Hardline color hate is easy to fit into a madness-oriented deck, and I'll also add Ruination to the list for something that usually screws over 3+ color ramp decks, particularly if you're running monocolor.
You can also run a 'fair' blue deck that focuses on the combat step. Blue has come a long way in terms of creatures, and cards like Sphinx of Foresight, the aforementioned Frost Titan, Wake Thrasher, and Chasm Skulker can hold their own alongside just enough counterspells to keep things honest.
That's why people need to mix it up rather than always going for the same color-pie. Punish them. The way the need to counter act this is by bringing a different deck..job done.
Exactly, I don't actually care that much about losing, I'm just trying to find something that can beat this enough to where I can get him to try some other things because it's getting old.
The "during your turn stuff" looks good, I think I'll want those if the deck can support it.
I do like the red counter spells a lot, I've been wanting to put them in something like gruul as a gotcha.
I never really processed that the Eldrazi are cast triggers and not ETB until now, that's pretty cool. Still I think if I do any of the big ones it'll just make me the new target. World Breaker is good though.
I like the uncounterable creatures, I've been looking at Surrak Dragonclaw for a bit and thought it would be fun to do "uncounterable tribal." The lack of good creature removal and graveyard hate could be a problem though. My other idea is a more grindy abzan deck where I get all the good exile spells and grave hate but miss out on the sweet counter spells/uncounterable spells. I guess I'm having trouble deciding which would help me more.
I usually spend between 200-300 on decks, nothing super crazy but I can get some good cards. Help sounds great thanks!
Note that they are playing blue and ramp, so land destruction would be effective if you have a clock (xenagos, aurelia, etc. ). However, I think spot removal and grave hate are good combinations to stop the bs. I play a mono green deck that does something similar to your deck. If someone nails my seedborne muse, I am hurting. Mortify, assassin's trophy, etc. are good ways to slow me down. If you're feeling evil, run discard too. Just back it up with a couple of hard to deal with threats to bring it home!
Land destruction is fairly frowned upon, unless there's something that only gets one person's lands I don't want to wreck everybody else lol. Spot removal sounds good though, I think I just need to get more people to help for when the first one gets countered.
As a requirement to that, be sure that your table understands card advantage, rather than just life total and board state, as a metric of who is winning. One player running rampant is a sign of either disproportionate deck value and degenerate combos (is he running ABU dual lands and Mana Drains in a casual group? If so tell him to heck off with that) or poor threat assessment. The guy with a full grip of cards, tons of mana, and an empty board state is just as threatening or moreso (and should draw hate appropriately) than the guy with an 11/11 hexproof lifelink trampler, three copies of Frost Titan, and an empty hand.
This is actually really helpful. He doesn't play any crazy valuable stuff, I think most of our decks are pretty similar price point wise. The threat assessment thing makes a lot of sense though. A bunch of us are relatively new to commander and play a lot of combat-based decks so it's hard to comprehend a little seedborn muse being more dangerous than someone's giant dragon or whatever. I will definitely keep it in mind and attempt to convince the others lol.
That's why people need to mix it up rather than always going for the same color-pie. Punish them. The way the need to counter act this is by bringing a different deck..job done.
Exactly, I don't actually care that much about losing, I'm just trying to find something that can beat this enough to where I can get him to try some other things because it's getting old.
The "during your turn stuff" looks good, I think I'll want those if the deck can support it.
I do like the red counter spells a lot, I've been wanting to put them in something like gruul as a gotcha.
I never really processed that the Eldrazi are cast triggers and not ETB until now, that's pretty cool. Still I think if I do any of the big ones it'll just make me the new target. World Breaker is good though.
I like the uncounterable creatures, I've been looking at Surrak Dragonclaw for a bit and thought it would be fun to do "uncounterable tribal." The lack of good creature removal and graveyard hate could be a problem though. My other idea is a more grindy abzan deck where I get all the good exile spells and grave hate but miss out on the sweet counter spells/uncounterable spells. I guess I'm having trouble deciding which would help me more.
I usually spend between 200-300 on decks, nothing super crazy but I can get some good cards. Help sounds great thanks!
Note that they are playing blue and ramp, so land destruction would be effective if you have a clock (xenagos, aurelia, etc. ). However, I think spot removal and grave hate are good combinations to stop the bs. I play a mono green deck that does something similar to your deck. If someone nails my seedborne muse, I am hurting. Mortify, assassin's trophy, etc. are good ways to slow me down. If you're feeling evil, run discard too. Just back it up with a couple of hard to deal with threats to bring it home!
Land destruction is fairly frowned upon, unless there's something that only gets one person's lands I don't want to wreck everybody else lol. Spot removal sounds good though, I think I just need to get more people to help for when the first one gets countered.
As a requirement to that, be sure that your table understands card advantage, rather than just life total and board state, as a metric of who is winning. One player running rampant is a sign of either disproportionate deck value and degenerate combos (is he running ABU dual lands and Mana Drains in a casual group? If so tell him to heck off with that) or poor threat assessment. The guy with a full grip of cards, tons of mana, and an empty board state is just as threatening or moreso (and should draw hate appropriately) than the guy with an 11/11 hexproof lifelink trampler, three copies of Frost Titan, and an empty hand.
This is actually really helpful. He doesn't play any crazy valuable stuff, I think most of our decks are pretty similar price point wise. The threat assessment thing makes a lot of sense though. A bunch of us are relatively new to commander and play a lot of combat-based decks so it's hard to comprehend a little seedborn muse being more dangerous than someone's giant dragon or whatever. I will definitely keep it in mind and attempt to convince the others lol.
I'm just going to echo the wisdom of the threat assessment. It could be a point for you guys to, post-game, reveal what you had in hand, and learn what the actual threatening things are, and where they are (i.e. i always make it a point to kill off the group hug player first, just because that player is almost always the most threatening to any winning player's position, even if it feels unintuitive).
I don't think it's all that necessary to push your group's meta forwards though; there's a natural progression to things, and I'm sure it will balance itself out in time. If you're looking for a specific anti UG deck, something like a RG ruric thar, the unbowed or something. Also, it might be a good idea to keep a mind of how many lands they have in play towards the end game and compare. If they are generally on double the mana the other players are, make sure to hit some of their mana sources. You don't need to armageddon-smokestack-trinisphere lock people out of the game (though i do like doing that), but keeping people on an even keel is a good idea.
Price of Glory is the exact card you are looking for. I find it works best in a Gruul tap out deck, so maybe the aforementioned Xengod would work well. Ruric Thar is also a good one if you want to punish noncreature spells. Mix in a Possibility Storm which will prevent him from getting the spells he intends when he intends, and Ankh of Mishra and Zo-zu the Punisher to punish his land ramp, and you’ve got a recipe for a counter deck.
You gotta get you some of my boi, boil and his slower, older brother Boiling Seas. Slap 'em in every non-blue red deck, watch people choke as they wonder how the hell to get more beachfront property.
I like the uncounterable creatures, I've been looking at Surrak Dragonclaw for a bit and thought it would be fun to do "uncounterable tribal." The lack of good creature removal and graveyard hate could be a problem though.
Surrak himself already makes your other dudes uncounterable. Just run Rhythm of the Wild and maybe Vexing Shusher for insurance if Surrak is taken out of action.
You also don't need to play hard control just because you're blue. A few low-cost counters like Arcane Denial, Swan Song, Stubborn Denial, and Disdainful Stroke go a long way if you only counter things like board wipes or game-enders like the aforementioned Villainous Wealth.
I'd bring Thrun, the Last Troll as your commander and as much green anti-blue tech listed above that you can stuff in. Thrun is great in general, and if you can get him the anti-blue swords (Sword of Fire and Ice, Sword of Body and Mind), they'll never even be able to block him, let alone remove him or counter him.
Manabarbs and Burning Earth if he has a lot of nonbasics. Bedlam is nice if you're aggro and they're putting up token walls and such. Of course it opens you up as well.
Do they run a lot of utility dorks? Yasova Dragonclaw is the temur general I'd choose. Steal their Seedborn and run it into someone else's big blocker. Or sac it for profit.
Someone just played Natural Balance against me for the first time the other day. I think it is a balanced card because even if you are killing lands for some people you are actually balancing out the field for everyone. Five lands is still enough to play most of your deck and it basically just punishes land ramp. In my case I had played boundless realms twice and had no more basics in my deck which kind of ****ed me for the rest of the game but hey, it was my fault for overextending so far and having 25 lands. :/
one of the things i tell my group a lot, and no one has bothered yet, is to pack jester's cap effects. one of those will generally neuter my ability to win pretty hard.
the other thing i tell them is to punish me for casting spells and ramping. the ramping they haven't done much about but a well time ruination, or armageddon is game over. lock down my lands with something like back to basics even.
one guy is packing a lot of nasty red cards that ping for noncreature spell casts, activated abilities, nonbasic lands, etc they'll usually hurt enough to make a difference.
throw in some surprises. nothing wrecks my day more than going off only to have someone tap a mountain and pyroblast my combo, random counterspells, random removal. lemmie tell ya, it feels real bad to go to food chain and have it eat a nature's claim.
force me into top deck mode, sure, i can recover eventually but it puts the screws on me for awhile and allows you to get ahead
put pressure on me. throw things into the red zone at me. throw them at me a lot. throw them at me constantly. nothing makes me happier than an aggro player who 'shares the love' and goes after some other guy for awhile.
the biggest tip though? the thing i can say you need to do at all costs above all else?
one of the things i tell my group a lot, and no one has bothered yet, is to pack jester's cap effects. one of those will generally neuter my ability to win pretty hard.
Generally in 100-card decks this isn't a good use of a card, since most decks have at least 4 ways to win and cap effects don't generate card advantage and have no immediate result on the board state. If you're going to run a narrow hate card then it's probably better to run something more immediate.
That is very good advice. More generally, understand why card advantage is good and you should never say "eh, they already have a bunch of cards" unless not paying that 1 is the difference between winning this turn or not.
Even better advice: play artifact/enchantment removal, and immediately blow up Rhystic Study every single time you can. While paying the 1.
It's a safe bet that someone who's running Rhystic is someone that you don't want to give cards to.
I find various white cards with restrictive functions, such as Rule of Law, Thalia, Heretic Cathar, and Grand Abolisher effective against decks that do things on everyone's turn. Removing troublesome cards on first sight will forever be a good idea.
Not combo per say, it's just sheer amount of spells or something broken like villainous wealth, with counterspells held up so we can't do anything about it. He's also a fan of looping seasons past and mystical tutor.
Is there a way to beat this kind of strategy in a fair fight? (ie not just yeeting him off the table as soon as possible). I have decks that can do that but it's not very rewarding.
I'm looking for strategies, specific commanders, whatever. Bonus points if it involves little or no blue for extra **** you factor.
The short answer is that it's always going to be tough to beat, unless your group really does clamp down and make them the archenemy from the word go.
But if I was to make some "anti" strategies, here are some cards that can work against them;
Dosan the Falling Leaf
City of Solitude
Hall of Gemstone
Price of Glory
If they ALWAYS bring blue, then hello..
Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, Guttural Response, Ricochet Trap, Boil, Carpet of Flowers, Choke.
That's why people need to mix it up rather than always going for the same color-pie. Punish them. The way the need to counter act this is by bringing a different deck..job done.
The next suggestions are less scientific, but with Gruul being the "anti-blue" colors, you could run Xenagos, God of Revels as I find it's pretty great at killing the first player you target.
The haste element makes it hard to interact with if you get a (Dosan the Falling Leaf, City of Solitude, Hall of Gemstone, Price of Glory, etc) down.
Other spells to back this up;
- Spellbreaker Behemoth
- Emrakul, the Promised End
- Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
- Kozilek, the Great Distortion
- Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
- World Breaker
- Carnage Tyrant
- Prowling Serpopard
The Eldrazi cast triggers are excellent against counterspells, and thump really hard. You need to back this up with a lot of ramp however.Let me know if any of this tickles your fancy, give me a budget, and I can help you make a deck.
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Feather, the Redeemed
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Teshar
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As a requirement to that, be sure that your table understands card advantage, rather than just life total and board state, as a metric of who is winning. One player running rampant is a sign of either disproportionate deck value and degenerate combos (is he running ABU dual lands and Mana Drains in a casual group? If so tell him to heck off with that) or poor threat assessment. The guy with a full grip of cards, tons of mana, and an empty board state is just as threatening or moreso (and should draw hate appropriately) than the guy with an 11/11 hexproof lifelink trampler, three copies of Frost Titan, and an empty hand.
That said,
Black is the next best thing as long as you combine it with white or green for artifact/enchantment removal. Running effects like Mind Twist, Head Games, Identity Crisis, or Awaken the Erstwhile to trash his hand can slow him down a lot.
Efficient attackers like Taurean Mauler, Mold Adder (no joke, just remember those triggers!), Serra Ascendant, or Falkenrath Marauders are good for putting pressure on, combined with the aforementioned creature removal to keep his board clear.
Graveyard hate (for Seasons Past, Praetor's Counsel, etc.) is both cheap and invaluable, especially if you don't mind nuking your own graveyard. Relic of Progenitus and Bojuka Bog are the best contenders, but there are others.
There are lots of cards like Tunnel Ignus, Runeflare Trap, Acidic Soil, Price of Progress, or Treacherous Terrain that punish ramp/draw more than others but are also not useless in its absence or else punish something extremely common.
If you take darrenhabib's advice and run color-specific hate, then consider also running 'loot' effects like Faithless Looting, Cathartic Reunion, Tormenting Voice, Azor's Gateway (don't worry about the flip thing, just treat it like any other loot effect), Jaya Ballard, and so on. These effects help you find the hate cards you need, or else trash them for better cards if they're not helpful in the current situation. Black of course gets a ton of tutors, card draw, and 'discard for power' effects that can accomplish something similar. Hardline color hate is easy to fit into a madness-oriented deck, and I'll also add Ruination to the list for something that usually screws over 3+ color ramp decks, particularly if you're running monocolor.
You can also run a 'fair' blue deck that focuses on the combat step. Blue has come a long way in terms of creatures, and cards like Sphinx of Foresight, the aforementioned Frost Titan, Wake Thrasher, and Chasm Skulker can hold their own alongside just enough counterspells to keep things honest.
- Rabid Wombat
Exactly, I don't actually care that much about losing, I'm just trying to find something that can beat this enough to where I can get him to try some other things because it's getting old.
The "during your turn stuff" looks good, I think I'll want those if the deck can support it.
I do like the red counter spells a lot, I've been wanting to put them in something like gruul as a gotcha.
I never really processed that the Eldrazi are cast triggers and not ETB until now, that's pretty cool. Still I think if I do any of the big ones it'll just make me the new target. World Breaker is good though.
I like the uncounterable creatures, I've been looking at Surrak Dragonclaw for a bit and thought it would be fun to do "uncounterable tribal." The lack of good creature removal and graveyard hate could be a problem though. My other idea is a more grindy abzan deck where I get all the good exile spells and grave hate but miss out on the sweet counter spells/uncounterable spells. I guess I'm having trouble deciding which would help me more.
I usually spend between 200-300 on decks, nothing super crazy but I can get some good cards. Help sounds great thanks!
Land destruction is fairly frowned upon, unless there's something that only gets one person's lands I don't want to wreck everybody else lol. Spot removal sounds good though, I think I just need to get more people to help for when the first one gets countered.
This is actually really helpful. He doesn't play any crazy valuable stuff, I think most of our decks are pretty similar price point wise. The threat assessment thing makes a lot of sense though. A bunch of us are relatively new to commander and play a lot of combat-based decks so it's hard to comprehend a little seedborn muse being more dangerous than someone's giant dragon or whatever. I will definitely keep it in mind and attempt to convince the others lol.
Wow Identity Crisis is brutal...I like it.
Boiling seas
Running nin with a control shell.
or nivmizzet firemind full combo shell.
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I'm just going to echo the wisdom of the threat assessment. It could be a point for you guys to, post-game, reveal what you had in hand, and learn what the actual threatening things are, and where they are (i.e. i always make it a point to kill off the group hug player first, just because that player is almost always the most threatening to any winning player's position, even if it feels unintuitive).
I don't think it's all that necessary to push your group's meta forwards though; there's a natural progression to things, and I'm sure it will balance itself out in time. If you're looking for a specific anti UG deck, something like a RG ruric thar, the unbowed or something. Also, it might be a good idea to keep a mind of how many lands they have in play towards the end game and compare. If they are generally on double the mana the other players are, make sure to hit some of their mana sources. You don't need to armageddon-smokestack-trinisphere lock people out of the game (though i do like doing that), but keeping people on an even keel is a good idea.
Oh and city of solitude, defense grid.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
RBGLiving EndRBG
EDH
UFblthpU
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URWZedruuWRU
Surrak himself already makes your other dudes uncounterable. Just run Rhythm of the Wild and maybe Vexing Shusher for insurance if Surrak is taken out of action.
Rhythm of the Wild is especially good because haste is extremely important for large creature decks in commander
Other good haste sources...
Temur Ascendancy
Ogre Battledriver
Flamekin Village
Maelstrom Wanderer
(and of course Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots)
There's plenty of good spot removal in those colors as well.
Rapid Hybridization
Pongify
Reality Shift
Curse of the Swine
Beast Within
Chaos Warp
Decimate
Comet Storm
Radiant Flames (never underestimate the power of light board clears to stop utility creatures)
Starstorm (you can always choose X smaller than your smallest creature)
Blasphemous Act
Volcanic Offering
Good graveyard hate is mostly colorless anyways, though green also likes to hate on graveyards by shuffling them away.
Relic of Progenitus
Scrabbling Claws
Primal Command (eats a noncreature permanent in the process)
Scavenging Ooze
Tormod's Crypt & Sentinel Totem if you're really desperate, but that's probably overkill.
You also don't need to play hard control just because you're blue. A few low-cost counters like Arcane Denial, Swan Song, Stubborn Denial, and Disdainful Stroke go a long way if you only counter things like board wipes or game-enders like the aforementioned Villainous Wealth.
- Rabid Wombat
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Do they run a lot of utility dorks? Yasova Dragonclaw is the temur general I'd choose. Steal their Seedborn and run it into someone else's big blocker. Or sac it for profit.
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
one of the things i tell my group a lot, and no one has bothered yet, is to pack jester's cap effects. one of those will generally neuter my ability to win pretty hard.
the other thing i tell them is to punish me for casting spells and ramping. the ramping they haven't done much about but a well time ruination, or armageddon is game over. lock down my lands with something like back to basics even.
one guy is packing a lot of nasty red cards that ping for noncreature spell casts, activated abilities, nonbasic lands, etc they'll usually hurt enough to make a difference.
throw in some surprises. nothing wrecks my day more than going off only to have someone tap a mountain and pyroblast my combo, random counterspells, random removal. lemmie tell ya, it feels real bad to go to food chain and have it eat a nature's claim.
force me into top deck mode, sure, i can recover eventually but it puts the screws on me for awhile and allows you to get ahead
put pressure on me. throw things into the red zone at me. throw them at me a lot. throw them at me constantly. nothing makes me happier than an aggro player who 'shares the love' and goes after some other guy for awhile.
the biggest tip though? the thing i can say you need to do at all costs above all else?
PAY FOR RHYSTIC STUDY
That is very good advice. More generally, understand why card advantage is good and you should never say "eh, they already have a bunch of cards" unless not paying that 1 is the difference between winning this turn or not.
Even better advice: play artifact/enchantment removal, and immediately blow up Rhystic Study every single time you can. While paying the 1.
It's a safe bet that someone who's running Rhystic is someone that you don't want to give cards to.
- Rabid Wombat
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