Well, this topic every now and then gets brought up in forums and playgroups and since I am a passionate Bant player, I am brewing with Derevi, Empyrial Tactician for over a year now. There are multiple reasons why I've been running Derevi for all my Bant needs, but mainly because she is the only competitive option for Bant as of today. This is obviously subjective and some might disagree, but hear me out and let me give you some context.
The goal of this thread is to gather valuable opinions by other players, wether you have experience playing with or against Derevi, or not. I'm a person who is generally caring about good games, fun & fair experiences, so outside input is a way to get valuable information and input, hence why I created this topic.
My Goals and Visions - What Deck do I want to play
Ever since I've been playing EDH I loved decks full with interactions! I also love turning creatures sideways and win with plain and simple combat damage! I love some good old value generation and rather pick a more leaned back approach so I maximise my staying power in the game. If you combine these attributes you end up with the Tempo archetype, a mix between aggro and control, leaning either more to one side or being a very balanced blend. While this archetype spawned many succesful decks across all different 1v1 formats, it's rather underwhelming in EDH, due to the nature of a multiplayer format. These decks heavily rely on tempo generating or tempo decreasing cards that are simply not designed to go against multiple opponents at once and fail miserably in EDH.
On my journey of creating a true EDH tempo deck I eventually stumbled across Derevi, Empyrial Tactician after I had almost given up. I tried to realise this archetype in many different ways, using commanders like Geist of Saint Traft or Thrasios, Triton Hero, but they never reached the power and effeciency level that was required to compete against the formats Tier 1-2 decks. This is of course due to the archetypes bad position in a multiplayer format, but my drive to create a functioning tempo deck was so strong that I eventually overcame its weakness and was able to build multiple succesful builds.
Derevi, in my honest opinion, is the only general which can put tempo into the competetive realm and do so in a sheer unlimted amount of flavors and variations. Starting with the infamous Derevi stax list (which isn't a traditional tempo deck if you ask me), Flashblade (my own creation which is essentially EDH's version of Caw Blade), Tokenflash (another creation by me using instant speed token spells to swarm the board), Wizardball (A wizard combo deck) over to flicker based value decks and everything in between. This commander is the incarnation of versatility!
The Meta - How the Pod matters
If we as humans want to measure something and give a true, unbiased assesment we need to look at things holistically. In terms of commanders and decks we need to not only look at the general and the deck itself, but rather look at the planned application as well. I will make it very clear here: It does not make any sense to measure a Doomsday combo deck in relation to a The Ur-Dragon precon. I really want to emphasize that, because I don't want players to express concerns or shout BAN DEREVI! just because they don't like to play on a certain power level or their beloved tribal deck got crushed by a tier 1 deck. I 100% agree that some decks just should not be brought to more casual tables and if they are, the chances are high that it will frustrate players and give a wrong perception. Now with that out of the way, let's get into my meta.
I regularly go against very powerful decks settled in around the 75% mark, sometimes a bit higher or a bit lower, consisting of all different archetypes. Generally even decks that might not have a real cEDH variant are very powerful and tough to go against. The composition of play pods varies from game to game, so I never know wether I go against 3 combo decks, 1 stax & 2 control decks, 1 aggro & 2 combo decks and so on......
There is a high number of very good decks present in my meta and many of them use pretty degenerate stuff that wins ranging from turn 3-7 if not stopped.
I've been going up against these powerful decks for over 2 years now and I've since stayed true to some of my own virtues: No infinite combos, play hard, but fair and never pass your turn with out two untapped islands! I've seriously learned and improved a lot since 2016 and I still do. I've been working hard to perfect the art of playing tempo in EDH and worked on my decks with such a dedication that I can truly say: I am proud of what I have achieved! I have overcome the supreme discipline, playing against 3 tuned combo decks at the same time and winning with combat damage! I have taken the role of the control player in our group and because of that have taken my friends deck building and piloting to the next level! I have had hours of fantastic interactions with very good friends and I can truly say that the EDH community as a whole has been nothing but amazing to me!
However, very recently I had some players in my meta complain about my decks. I've heard phrases like: cheating commander tax is broken, untapping all your stuff is too strong, I hate that you always counter my important spells when I want to go infinite, your deck has to many interactions with others and itself, you and your damn Mask of Memory, has anyone a Pithing Needle for trade?...
It's been certainly polarizing for me and my tempo bird lately and while some players complained, others say Derevi is perfectly fine as is. To give some additional context I've been brewing multiple Derevi decks at the same time for over 1 year and I can say without a doubt: I have mastered the Bird in many different ways. Since I started brewing however I stayed true to all my values and goals I set: No infinite combos, no stax pieces and if you want to win.... better swing some creatures sideways. Isn't this one of the most honest ways to tackle deck building? Isn't it a very well deserved win if you did win in your combat phase, in a format that is certainly anti-creature? Isn't it important to have a master of diplomacy available as commander, that fights for the good cause in a world full of corruption and betrayal?
I've had someone come to me and say: "Yesterday after our game evening I was lying in the bed and just couldn't sleep because I was thinking about our game where you had Wilderness Reclamation out and sacced Derevi, Empyrial Tactician each turn into Seaside Haven to draw a card". I had a smile on my face hearing that and he continued that it is overpowered and shouldn't be possible. But is it? Is it really overpowered to spend 2GWWUU to draw a card and tap or untap target permanent? I don't think so. Other decks are winning the game with 7 mana. I surely agree that Derevi can pull of all sorts of crazy shenanigans that many other commanders can't, but is that really a reason to hate her? Other commanders have different ways to be abused, some of which are way higher on the degeneracy scale, and no one is complaining on the same level, or at all, as they do with Derevi for years.
See through the Eyes of the Bird - My personal assessment
While its hard to avoid being subjetive, especially if you're like me and love Derevi, I still tried to maintain some objectivity when looking at her in the greater picture of our format. Obviously she had to go in 1v1 french commander and if nothing else that is a sign that we are talking about a "serious business" commander. Of course decisons that are made for that format do not translate well into multiplayer at all, it's only a small indicator. Actually I will go as far and say that almost all commanders which are problematic in 1v1 aren't in multiplayer.
In terms of Derevi stax lists I can truly understand why people would not like to go up against something like that, especially if they are not equipped to do something against it or just don't enjoy being taxed for everything they do. I actually don't super enjoy playing against stax but every now and then I'll take the challenge. But I will say something here which many people seem to avoid: It is stax that you probably don't like, not Derevi, and while she is probably the commander that supports this playstyle the best, its still an otional and concious decision by the deck builder to run her as a stax general, which I don't.
If I should formulate one sentence about Derevi it would be: Derevi is the best that could have happened to the competetive side of EDH!
In a world where combo decks take the supreme spot of the power scale it is in my honest opinion very important to have a counterbalance existent in the format and while some generals can apply for this job, Derevi, Empyrial Tactician takes the supreme spot on that side of the scale. Control decks in general lack in terms of quality when they go up against the best of the best and that is especially true when you make the concious decision to not run a combo-control deck. Fortunately Derevi gives all players an outlet who choose to take that path and she does it in a brilliant very open ended way.
As said earlier, I do agree with players that Derevi can pull of some crazy next-level plays and most decks that I have build took a lot advantage of her unique traits. But we need to truly ask ourselves what the outcome of these interactions is in relation to other commanders interactions or individual cards. Sacrificing Derevi for some value and just replaying her might seem flashy and unfair for some players, but if you start to put this into perspective with other interactions, you start to realize how "cute" some of it is. Like I said earlier, the interaction with Seaside Haven is great, but 7 mana for 1 card and a tap/untap trigger? Necropotence might have a word with you.
I could continue forever, showing how many cards or synergies are more effecient than the shenanigans Derevi can pull of, but that is beyond the point. Rather I will talk about some very general observations that I made. There are people complaining about winning game states, which can be huge in Derevi decks, just have no basis to complain. For example, if my decks win, its been a hard fight over resources and a win in the most honest way possible, through combat, and if opposing players can't do anything to stop that from happening they should probably work on their decks. I have the philosophy that if a deck is well constructed, at some point it should almost feel unstopable. If players happen to find themselves often in these situations, they should really try to pin point the issues why they find themselves in such situations and I can tell you in 99% of the cases the issue lies within their own deck and for the other 1% it's just that they brought a deck that shouldn't be played against Tier 1-2 decks.
Additionally, people who build glas-canon combo decks can't complain if a good control deck will stop them from combo-ing regularly. Just build a better deck and don't rely on combos alone. I've seen this so often that combo players get super mad if they rush into their combo, get stopped and after it just sit there for statistical reasons. That is just bad building & piloting and you can't blame that on opposing decks and their pilots.
Conclusion: Wether you like Derevi or not, I truly believe that she fulfills an important role in our format and I will stand up for the cause, no matter what. Some people in the community were demanding a ban over the years and I am very happy that it didn't happen. As far as I know that also won't change in the future and that is good thing, because it would not only remove a serious contender for the competetive scene, but also make a lot of casual people sad that enjoy Derevi as their Bird-Tribal commander and what not. What I will say here though: It's about time for another competetive general in Bant colors, which is what this color combination desperately needs.
Retrospective - To the readers
What are your thoughts on this whole subject?
Do you agree with me?
Do you disagree?
Have you had any experiences you want to share?
Please take my invitation and use this place to discuss everything Derevi. I'll appreciate every bit of input you contribute to this thread.
Fun read. I generally have similar principles - no combo, avoid anything busted, try to make my wins hard so they mean something.
There's definitely a lot of players running infinite combos who are, for lack of a better word, posers. They think they're super great at magic because they can play the same tired stuff that's been done to death, against opponents who aren't experienced enough to know how to handle it. And few things give me as much satisfaction as stopping them in their tracks with a well-timed answer, and then slowly beating them to death, knowing they might have won if they actually made an effort to learn the game rather than take the easy route.
That said...
Imma let you finish but Phelddagrif is the best bant control commander of all time! (oh god just typing that meme makes me feel old) He's arguably even harder to kill than derevi, draws next to zero hate, can weaponize weak players against strong ones, plays politics like derevi can only dream of, has twice the power for a faster clock with trample to boot, and he's way, way funnier to kill people with. Derevi has his plusses too, but at the end of the day, if you win almost every game with Derevi, people say you're overpowered. If you win almost every game with Phelddagrif, people say you're a legend.
Well what you are talking about is playing a grindy control deck in this format, possibly fun police. There is nothing wrong with being fun police, its part of the uniform and badge. Especially since you are playing at an LGS, that if your opponents were considerate or mindful they wouldn't be busting out so many combos yet seldom the case. Even though I like combo, I also run a fun police deck to slam down combo, that the only other option vs combo is to run an even more faster and consistent deck. I personally joke that EDH is pretty much the cold war format except nukes will go off.
My control deck is Tymna the Weaver + Ravos, Soultender. To go into brief detail: Heavy enchantress theme with a curse suite, stax, tax, negative and positive anthems, tutors, boardwipes, goodstuff removal, hard locks.
I mean, I'm sure you made a lot of good points, but the only piece of info I needed to give an answer is that your brewing to play against tier 1 decks. The answers is of course no, they should not complain. Even the most cutthroat stax build of Derevi is fine for that environment. Once your in cEDH, your playing either exclusively to win or to test your skill against the best decks you can face. The only things that I think could rightly draw complaints are things like group hug or chaos that will just king make and undermine the reason people are playing high tier decks.
Outside of cEDH, Derevi is no longer as overplayed as she once was, so as long as you aren't running her stax build she's typically fine. Her ability to evade commander tax is annoying and can still put some people off, so it's still worth asking before you run her, especially in more casual settings. And yes, Derevi can be played casually, like bird tribal
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I'll be honest, I didn't read the whole treatise. It looked well thought out, so please take that as a reflection on my poor concentration and the fact that I'm at work.
That being said the one phrase that stood out to me tells me all I need to know:
I hate that you always counter my important spells when I want to go infinite
Really? What sort of children are you playing against? This is literally how the game works, especially at a competitive level. They've got no place complaining. It's not a popular strategy, but if anything I dislike combo more. So....keep doing what you're doing. And tell them if they want to beat you they need to stop complaining and step it up.
Shame that you wrote this thoughtful, measured argument and "Boris Sucks" is still top of the forum.
That being said, perception and reputation matter. I play a Kozilek artifact combo deck, mostly because he's a draw 4 in colorless. But I still eat cheap shots and chip damage from players afraid of being anninhilated.
C'est la vie, you play a general that does a lot of sweet things, pushback comes with the turf in high literacy environments.
I read the writeup, and it certainly was a well-written piece of musings.
...but I can't offer much. Your 75% is probably about 125% for me, if that makes sense - your meta seems a few aeons more competitive than where my decks are, so it's hard to directly compare.
However, I don't think of Derevi as a problem commander. As with any commander, you can play 'fair' if you want to - which seems to be your approach here. With the decks you're against I don't think they have much space to complain about non-stax Derevi.
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First of all I want to thank all you guys for the great responses so far. I'm happy that some of you had a good read. With that out of the way I want to elaborate on some specific comments and points made.
Imma let you finish but Phelddagrif is the best bant control commander of all time! (oh god just typing that meme makes me feel old) He's arguably even harder to kill than derevi, draws next to zero hate, can weaponize weak players against strong ones, plays politics like derevi can only dream of, has twice the power for a faster clock with trample to boot, and he's way, way funnier to kill people with. Derevi has his plusses too, but at the end of the day, if you win almost every game with Derevi, people say you're overpowered. If you win almost every game with Phelddagrif, people say you're a legend.
I have certainly considered to build the happy hippo myself and actually might do so in the future. You bring up a lot of good points why it is a very good commander for control-politics gameplay in Bant colors. But as you pointed out it still feels like a meme to build a serious deck around god ol Phelda.
I mean, I'm sure you made a lot of good points, but the only piece of info I needed to give an answer is that your brewing to play against tier 1 decks. The answers is of course no, they should not complain. Even the most cutthroat stax build of Derevi is fine for that environment. Once your in cEDH, your playing either exclusively to win or to test your skill against the best decks you can face. The only things that I think could rightly draw complaints are things like group hug or chaos that will just king make and undermine the reason people are playing high tier decks.
Outside of cEDH, Derevi is no longer as overplayed as she once was, so as long as you aren't running her stax build she's typically fine. Her ability to evade commander tax is annoying and can still put some people off, so it's still worth asking before you run her, especially in more casual settings. And yes, Derevi can be played casually, like bird tribal
Very good points made here. Well, to come back to my meta I would not say it is cEDH all the time, but rather right on the edge towards cEDH. There are some cEDH decks floating around here and there, but its not tier 1 stuff all the time. That being said I'm also not running the most cut-throat Derevi brews of course, hence why I think there is no room to complain at all.
I'll be honest, I didn't read the whole treatise. It looked well thought out, so please take that as a reflection on my poor concentration and the fact that I'm at work.
That being said the one phrase that stood out to me tells me all I need to know:
I hate that you always counter my important spells when I want to go infinite
Really? What sort of children are you playing against? This is literally how the game works, especially at a competitive level. They've got no place complaining. It's not a popular strategy, but if anything I dislike combo more. So....keep doing what you're doing. And tell them if they want to beat you they need to stop complaining and step it up.
Yea, this happened to me a few times already, but to be fair, it was a corner case I still thought would be worth mentioning. But even if I don't get such childish complaints, I got other ridiculous ones. The deck is no joke after all, but I let other people play with my deck as well and I didn't noticed any unsolvable problems whatssoever. The winrate isn't super high either, so I don't know...
Shame that you wrote this thoughtful, measured argument and "Boris Sucks" is still top of the forum.
That being said, perception and reputation matter. I play a Kozilek artifact combo deck, mostly because he's a draw 4 in colorless. But I still eat cheap shots and chip damage from players afraid of being anninhilated.
C'est la vie, you play a general that does a lot of sweet things, pushback comes with the turf in high literacy environments.
Yea, I have seen a Kozilek deck in the past and it's quite similar in terms of hate that it draws. I agree with players, annihalator is nothing to underestimate, but sometimes people take the pitchfork runup onto another level. ^^
I read the writeup, and it certainly was a well-written piece of musings.
...but I can't offer much. Your 75% is probably about 125% for me, if that makes sense - your meta seems a few aeons more competitive than where my decks are, so it's hard to directly compare.
However, I don't think of Derevi as a problem commander. As with any commander, you can play 'fair' if you want to - which seems to be your approach here. With the decks you're against I don't think they have much space to complain about non-stax Derevi.
Okay still thank you for your opinion, even you play on a more leaned back powerlevel. It still means something. I absolutely agree that you can play fair with most commanders and that is actually what I wanted to from the beginning on. I also made it clear to the players in my playgroup that they do not need to fear Winter Orb or something in that vein.
I personally find it amusing when my general clouds their threat assessment so hard that they blow all their removal and damage trying to keep me off 10 mana, only to lose to wizard combo the turn after I'm dead. I would just put that private pleasure in your pocket for the times you do eat it to unjust hate. Eventually they'll figure it out.
I have certainly considered to build the happy hippo myself and actually might do so in the future. You bring up a lot of good points why it is a very good commander for control-politics gameplay in Bant colors. But as you pointed out it still feels like a meme to build a serious deck around god ol Phelda.
I'm pretty sure that was a typo, but Phelddagrif may actually an old god. Wouldn't surprise me. Phelddagrif's probably going to be the next major villain after bolas.
Anyway, my point really was just that I don't think Derevi is particularly unique in this circumstance. People do complain about the commander tax thing, but we've had commanders that dodged tax since the format began, they just did it by returning to hand instead. While it's definitely a strong option for a tempo/control list, unless you're abusing it via winter orb and whatnot, she's not significantly better than a host of other options. I think the real meat of the discussion is more about playing a control deck against weaker players with more powerful decks. Derevi herself doesn't strike me as being a particularly important part of the equation, except as a scapegoat for your opponents to cry "no fair, derevi is overpowered because no other commander has ever cheated commander tax ".
Great read, your message caught my attention since I recently built a Derevi deck. It is however at its early stage and needs a lot of fine tuning. Would you have a decklist available, so I can enlighten myself?
I have certainly considered to build the happy hippo myself and actually might do so in the future. You bring up a lot of good points why it is a very good commander for control-politics gameplay in Bant colors. But as you pointed out it still feels like a meme to build a serious deck around god ol Phelda.
Anyway, my point really was just that I don't think Derevi is particularly unique in this circumstance. People do complain about the commander tax thing, but we've had commanders that dodged tax since the format began, they just did it by returning to hand instead. While it's definitely a strong option for a tempo/control list, unless you're abusing it via winter orb and whatnot, she's not significantly better than a host of other options. I think the real meat of the discussion is more about playing a control deck against weaker players with more powerful decks. Derevi herself doesn't strike me as being a particularly important part of the equation, except as a scapegoat for your opponents to cry "no fair, derevi is overpowered because no other commander has ever cheated commander tax ".
Can you list all commanders that dodge commander tax one way or the other? I know a few which essentially never are affected by commander tax in the right build, like Karador, Ghost Chieftain or Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow.
Great read, your message caught my attention since I recently built a Derevi deck. It is however at its early stage and needs a lot of fine tuning. Would you have a decklist available, so I can enlighten myself?
Thanks!
Glad that the topic peeked your interest. I have a decklist of Flashblade on tapped out Here. There is also a primer that I started in the Multiplayer Commander section of this forum. You have to scroll through the pages to find it. Flashblade is however only one version to play Derevi and it's not the best I have come up with so far. It's essentially a control deck that tries to finish with commander damage and plays heavy equipment synergies. It's a fun and powerful deck, but really lacks in some creature heavy metas. But it's defintely a pretty fair version of Derevi and if you are into equipments you might like it.
I really need to find the time to update the Primer with some of the other non-stax options I have come up with, since some are more powerful or a lot more fun. But what I can only urge you to do is: Experiment. There are literally endless builds possible as Derevi is incredible versatile and supportive.
Can you list all commanders that dodge commander tax one way or the other? I know a few which essentially never are affected by commander tax in the right build, like Karador, Ghost Chieftain or Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow.
None of them are 100% immortal of course - including derevi, who can be shut down by imprisoned in the moon, pithing needle, etc. By comparison, Selenia and other bounce commanders can be killed with pithing needle + removal or split second removal, but can't be semi-permanently removed with imprison and co, which is a pretty big deal imo. But they can get taken offline semi-permanently with nevermore.
Derevi has kind of a unique sort of immortality, but it's not all that different from existing immortal commanders.
Derevi is my favorite but least used commander atm. Even though I don't play with my old playgroup anymore I am stoll afraid to bring her out because I feel I can't make her right anymore and because i do worry that she will be too good.
I keep getting absorbed into strategies with her like small creature aggro that just don't pan out and has me losing horribly and feeling even worse about her. I'm trying to make her again since I got feast and famine but idk.
1) Yes, Derevi, Empyrial Tactician's ability to circumvent the Commander tax is busted, but I would say that the effect is only format warping if you are building around mana denial strategies.
2) Players complaining about a deck having "too much interaction" and countering infinite combo pieces is totally asinine. We are playing a game against other people, not a goldfish.
3) If players are really playing Stax and Combo decks like Doomsday and Storm, then complaining about Sea Haven + Wilderness Reclamation + Derevi "combo" is ridiculous.
4) You've stumbled on something that I (and my regular playgroup) have found to be an interesting tipping point in deck evolution; that given enough interaction between players (i.e. enough players playing removal and/or counters), "glass cannon" and dedicated combo become less of a problem because of the amount of hate that they have to fight through. Further to that, it seems like having a dedicated combo deck also sets yourself up for not being able to stop other player's shenanigans.
5) You've also stumbled onto the fact that some players will have irrational fears and concerns about a particular General no matter what you tell them about how your deck is built. I have a Derevi deck that runs zero mana disruption, but just the fact that Derevi is sitting in my Command zone can make players want to gang up on me sometimes even if I'm just using him to untap pingers or relatively benign cards like Kazandu Tuskcaller.
1) Yes, Derevi, Empyrial Tactician's ability to circumvent the Commander tax is busted, but I would say that the effect is only format warping if you are building around mana denial strategies.
2) Players complaining about a deck having "too much interaction" and countering infinite combo pieces is totally asinine. We are playing a game against other people, not a goldfish.
3) If players are really playing Stax and Combo decks like Doomsday and Storm, then complaining about Sea Haven + Wilderness Reclamation + Derevi "combo" is ridiculous.
4) You've stumbled on something that I (and my regular playgroup) have found to be an interesting tipping point in deck evolution; that given enough interaction between players (i.e. enough players playing removal and/or counters), "glass cannon" and dedicated combo become less of a problem because of the amount of hate that they have to fight through. Further to that, it seems like having a dedicated combo deck also sets yourself up for not being able to stop other player's shenanigans.
5) You've also stumbled onto the fact that some players will have irrational fears and concerns about a particular General no matter what you tell them about how your deck is built. I have a Derevi deck that runs zero mana disruption, but just the fact that Derevi is sitting in my Command zone can make players want to gang up on me sometimes even if I'm just using him to untap pingers or relatively benign cards like Kazandu Tuskcaller.
Pretty much all of this is bang on. If you pack answers, combo struggles where toolbox builds have far more resilience to disruption. And yes, you could go blue in the face telling people you’re not running lockout, but seeing Derevi in command will trigger people. Same goes for Oloro, among other commanders I can’t pick off the top of my head right now. I get where that thinking comes from, but it’s not a great way to assess threats most of the time.
Well, this topic every now and then gets brought up in forums and playgroups and since I am a passionate Bant player, I am brewing with Derevi, Empyrial Tactician for over a year now. There are multiple reasons why I've been running Derevi for all my Bant needs, but mainly because she is the only competitive option for Bant as of today. This is obviously subjective and some might disagree, but hear me out and let me give you some context.
The goal of this thread is to gather valuable opinions by other players, wether you have experience playing with or against Derevi, or not. I'm a person who is generally caring about good games, fun & fair experiences, so outside input is a way to get valuable information and input, hence why I created this topic.
My Goals and Visions - What Deck do I want to play
Ever since I've been playing EDH I loved decks full with interactions! I also love turning creatures sideways and win with plain and simple combat damage! I love some good old value generation and rather pick a more leaned back approach so I maximise my staying power in the game. If you combine these attributes you end up with the Tempo archetype, a mix between aggro and control, leaning either more to one side or being a very balanced blend. While this archetype spawned many succesful decks across all different 1v1 formats, it's rather underwhelming in EDH, due to the nature of a multiplayer format. These decks heavily rely on tempo generating or tempo decreasing cards that are simply not designed to go against multiple opponents at once and fail miserably in EDH.
On my journey of creating a true EDH tempo deck I eventually stumbled across Derevi, Empyrial Tactician after I had almost given up. I tried to realise this archetype in many different ways, using commanders like Geist of Saint Traft or Thrasios, Triton Hero, but they never reached the power and effeciency level that was required to compete against the formats Tier 1-2 decks. This is of course due to the archetypes bad position in a multiplayer format, but my drive to create a functioning tempo deck was so strong that I eventually overcame its weakness and was able to build multiple succesful builds.
Derevi, in my honest opinion, is the only general which can put tempo into the competetive realm and do so in a sheer unlimted amount of flavors and variations. Starting with the infamous Derevi stax list (which isn't a traditional tempo deck if you ask me), Flashblade (my own creation which is essentially EDH's version of Caw Blade), Tokenflash (another creation by me using instant speed token spells to swarm the board), Wizardball (A wizard combo deck) over to flicker based value decks and everything in between. This commander is the incarnation of versatility!
The Meta - How the Pod matters
If we as humans want to measure something and give a true, unbiased assesment we need to look at things holistically. In terms of commanders and decks we need to not only look at the general and the deck itself, but rather look at the planned application as well. I will make it very clear here: It does not make any sense to measure a Doomsday combo deck in relation to a The Ur-Dragon precon. I really want to emphasize that, because I don't want players to express concerns or shout BAN DEREVI! just because they don't like to play on a certain power level or their beloved tribal deck got crushed by a tier 1 deck. I 100% agree that some decks just should not be brought to more casual tables and if they are, the chances are high that it will frustrate players and give a wrong perception. Now with that out of the way, let's get into my meta.
I regularly go against very powerful decks settled in around the 75% mark, sometimes a bit higher or a bit lower, consisting of all different archetypes. Generally even decks that might not have a real cEDH variant are very powerful and tough to go against. The composition of play pods varies from game to game, so I never know wether I go against 3 combo decks, 1 stax & 2 control decks, 1 aggro & 2 combo decks and so on......
There is a high number of very good decks present in my meta and many of them use pretty degenerate stuff that wins ranging from turn 3-7 if not stopped.
Here is a list of some decks I go up against:
Grumpy Players - Reaction to Justice
I've been going up against these powerful decks for over 2 years now and I've since stayed true to some of my own virtues: No infinite combos, play hard, but fair and never pass your turn with out two untapped islands! I've seriously learned and improved a lot since 2016 and I still do. I've been working hard to perfect the art of playing tempo in EDH and worked on my decks with such a dedication that I can truly say: I am proud of what I have achieved! I have overcome the supreme discipline, playing against 3 tuned combo decks at the same time and winning with combat damage! I have taken the role of the control player in our group and because of that have taken my friends deck building and piloting to the next level! I have had hours of fantastic interactions with very good friends and I can truly say that the EDH community as a whole has been nothing but amazing to me!
However, very recently I had some players in my meta complain about my decks. I've heard phrases like: cheating commander tax is broken, untapping all your stuff is too strong, I hate that you always counter my important spells when I want to go infinite, your deck has to many interactions with others and itself, you and your damn Mask of Memory, has anyone a Pithing Needle for trade?...
It's been certainly polarizing for me and my tempo bird lately and while some players complained, others say Derevi is perfectly fine as is. To give some additional context I've been brewing multiple Derevi decks at the same time for over 1 year and I can say without a doubt: I have mastered the Bird in many different ways. Since I started brewing however I stayed true to all my values and goals I set: No infinite combos, no stax pieces and if you want to win.... better swing some creatures sideways. Isn't this one of the most honest ways to tackle deck building? Isn't it a very well deserved win if you did win in your combat phase, in a format that is certainly anti-creature? Isn't it important to have a master of diplomacy available as commander, that fights for the good cause in a world full of corruption and betrayal?
I've had someone come to me and say: "Yesterday after our game evening I was lying in the bed and just couldn't sleep because I was thinking about our game where you had Wilderness Reclamation out and sacced Derevi, Empyrial Tactician each turn into Seaside Haven to draw a card". I had a smile on my face hearing that and he continued that it is overpowered and shouldn't be possible. But is it? Is it really overpowered to spend 2GWWUU to draw a card and tap or untap target permanent? I don't think so. Other decks are winning the game with 7 mana. I surely agree that Derevi can pull of all sorts of crazy shenanigans that many other commanders can't, but is that really a reason to hate her? Other commanders have different ways to be abused, some of which are way higher on the degeneracy scale, and no one is complaining on the same level, or at all, as they do with Derevi for years.
See through the Eyes of the Bird - My personal assessment
While its hard to avoid being subjetive, especially if you're like me and love Derevi, I still tried to maintain some objectivity when looking at her in the greater picture of our format. Obviously she had to go in 1v1 french commander and if nothing else that is a sign that we are talking about a "serious business" commander. Of course decisons that are made for that format do not translate well into multiplayer at all, it's only a small indicator. Actually I will go as far and say that almost all commanders which are problematic in 1v1 aren't in multiplayer.
In terms of Derevi stax lists I can truly understand why people would not like to go up against something like that, especially if they are not equipped to do something against it or just don't enjoy being taxed for everything they do. I actually don't super enjoy playing against stax but every now and then I'll take the challenge. But I will say something here which many people seem to avoid: It is stax that you probably don't like, not Derevi, and while she is probably the commander that supports this playstyle the best, its still an otional and concious decision by the deck builder to run her as a stax general, which I don't.
If I should formulate one sentence about Derevi it would be: Derevi is the best that could have happened to the competetive side of EDH!
In a world where combo decks take the supreme spot of the power scale it is in my honest opinion very important to have a counterbalance existent in the format and while some generals can apply for this job, Derevi, Empyrial Tactician takes the supreme spot on that side of the scale. Control decks in general lack in terms of quality when they go up against the best of the best and that is especially true when you make the concious decision to not run a combo-control deck. Fortunately Derevi gives all players an outlet who choose to take that path and she does it in a brilliant very open ended way.
As said earlier, I do agree with players that Derevi can pull of some crazy next-level plays and most decks that I have build took a lot advantage of her unique traits. But we need to truly ask ourselves what the outcome of these interactions is in relation to other commanders interactions or individual cards. Sacrificing Derevi for some value and just replaying her might seem flashy and unfair for some players, but if you start to put this into perspective with other interactions, you start to realize how "cute" some of it is. Like I said earlier, the interaction with Seaside Haven is great, but 7 mana for 1 card and a tap/untap trigger? Necropotence might have a word with you.
I could continue forever, showing how many cards or synergies are more effecient than the shenanigans Derevi can pull of, but that is beyond the point. Rather I will talk about some very general observations that I made. There are people complaining about winning game states, which can be huge in Derevi decks, just have no basis to complain. For example, if my decks win, its been a hard fight over resources and a win in the most honest way possible, through combat, and if opposing players can't do anything to stop that from happening they should probably work on their decks. I have the philosophy that if a deck is well constructed, at some point it should almost feel unstopable. If players happen to find themselves often in these situations, they should really try to pin point the issues why they find themselves in such situations and I can tell you in 99% of the cases the issue lies within their own deck and for the other 1% it's just that they brought a deck that shouldn't be played against Tier 1-2 decks.
Additionally, people who build glas-canon combo decks can't complain if a good control deck will stop them from combo-ing regularly. Just build a better deck and don't rely on combos alone. I've seen this so often that combo players get super mad if they rush into their combo, get stopped and after it just sit there for statistical reasons. That is just bad building & piloting and you can't blame that on opposing decks and their pilots.
Conclusion: Wether you like Derevi or not, I truly believe that she fulfills an important role in our format and I will stand up for the cause, no matter what. Some people in the community were demanding a ban over the years and I am very happy that it didn't happen. As far as I know that also won't change in the future and that is good thing, because it would not only remove a serious contender for the competetive scene, but also make a lot of casual people sad that enjoy Derevi as their Bird-Tribal commander and what not. What I will say here though: It's about time for another competetive general in Bant colors, which is what this color combination desperately needs.
Retrospective - To the readers
Please take my invitation and use this place to discuss everything Derevi. I'll appreciate every bit of input you contribute to this thread.
Sincerly
SubstaX
There's definitely a lot of players running infinite combos who are, for lack of a better word, posers. They think they're super great at magic because they can play the same tired stuff that's been done to death, against opponents who aren't experienced enough to know how to handle it. And few things give me as much satisfaction as stopping them in their tracks with a well-timed answer, and then slowly beating them to death, knowing they might have won if they actually made an effort to learn the game rather than take the easy route.
That said...
Imma let you finish but Phelddagrif is the best bant control commander of all time! (oh god just typing that meme makes me feel old) He's arguably even harder to kill than derevi, draws next to zero hate, can weaponize weak players against strong ones, plays politics like derevi can only dream of, has twice the power for a faster clock with trample to boot, and he's way, way funnier to kill people with. Derevi has his plusses too, but at the end of the day, if you win almost every game with Derevi, people say you're overpowered. If you win almost every game with Phelddagrif, people say you're a legend.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
My control deck is Tymna the Weaver + Ravos, Soultender. To go into brief detail: Heavy enchantress theme with a curse suite, stax, tax, negative and positive anthems, tutors, boardwipes, goodstuff removal, hard locks.
Outside of cEDH, Derevi is no longer as overplayed as she once was, so as long as you aren't running her stax build she's typically fine. Her ability to evade commander tax is annoying and can still put some people off, so it's still worth asking before you run her, especially in more casual settings. And yes, Derevi can be played casually, like bird tribal
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
That being said the one phrase that stood out to me tells me all I need to know:
Really? What sort of children are you playing against? This is literally how the game works, especially at a competitive level. They've got no place complaining. It's not a popular strategy, but if anything I dislike combo more. So....keep doing what you're doing. And tell them if they want to beat you they need to stop complaining and step it up.
That being said, perception and reputation matter. I play a Kozilek artifact combo deck, mostly because he's a draw 4 in colorless. But I still eat cheap shots and chip damage from players afraid of being anninhilated.
C'est la vie, you play a general that does a lot of sweet things, pushback comes with the turf in high literacy environments.
...but I can't offer much. Your 75% is probably about 125% for me, if that makes sense - your meta seems a few aeons more competitive than where my decks are, so it's hard to directly compare.
However, I don't think of Derevi as a problem commander. As with any commander, you can play 'fair' if you want to - which seems to be your approach here. With the decks you're against I don't think they have much space to complain about non-stax Derevi.
I have certainly considered to build the happy hippo myself and actually might do so in the future. You bring up a lot of good points why it is a very good commander for control-politics gameplay in Bant colors. But as you pointed out it still feels like a meme to build a serious deck around god ol Phelda.
Very good points made here. Well, to come back to my meta I would not say it is cEDH all the time, but rather right on the edge towards cEDH. There are some cEDH decks floating around here and there, but its not tier 1 stuff all the time. That being said I'm also not running the most cut-throat Derevi brews of course, hence why I think there is no room to complain at all.
Yea, this happened to me a few times already, but to be fair, it was a corner case I still thought would be worth mentioning. But even if I don't get such childish complaints, I got other ridiculous ones. The deck is no joke after all, but I let other people play with my deck as well and I didn't noticed any unsolvable problems whatssoever. The winrate isn't super high either, so I don't know...
Yea, I have seen a Kozilek deck in the past and it's quite similar in terms of hate that it draws. I agree with players, annihalator is nothing to underestimate, but sometimes people take the pitchfork runup onto another level. ^^
Okay still thank you for your opinion, even you play on a more leaned back powerlevel. It still means something. I absolutely agree that you can play fair with most commanders and that is actually what I wanted to from the beginning on. I also made it clear to the players in my playgroup that they do not need to fear Winter Orb or something in that vein.
Anyway, my point really was just that I don't think Derevi is particularly unique in this circumstance. People do complain about the commander tax thing, but we've had commanders that dodged tax since the format began, they just did it by returning to hand instead. While it's definitely a strong option for a tempo/control list, unless you're abusing it via winter orb and whatnot, she's not significantly better than a host of other options. I think the real meat of the discussion is more about playing a control deck against weaker players with more powerful decks. Derevi herself doesn't strike me as being a particularly important part of the equation, except as a scapegoat for your opponents to cry "no fair, derevi is overpowered because no other commander has ever cheated commander tax ".
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Thanks!
Can you list all commanders that dodge commander tax one way or the other? I know a few which essentially never are affected by commander tax in the right build, like Karador, Ghost Chieftain or Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow.
Glad that the topic peeked your interest. I have a decklist of Flashblade on tapped out Here. There is also a primer that I started in the Multiplayer Commander section of this forum. You have to scroll through the pages to find it. Flashblade is however only one version to play Derevi and it's not the best I have come up with so far. It's essentially a control deck that tries to finish with commander damage and plays heavy equipment synergies. It's a fun and powerful deck, but really lacks in some creature heavy metas. But it's defintely a pretty fair version of Derevi and if you are into equipments you might like it.
I really need to find the time to update the Primer with some of the other non-stax options I have come up with, since some are more powerful or a lot more fun. But what I can only urge you to do is: Experiment. There are literally endless builds possible as Derevi is incredible versatile and supportive.
+probably others I forgot
None of them are 100% immortal of course - including derevi, who can be shut down by imprisoned in the moon, pithing needle, etc. By comparison, Selenia and other bounce commanders can be killed with pithing needle + removal or split second removal, but can't be semi-permanently removed with imprison and co, which is a pretty big deal imo. But they can get taken offline semi-permanently with nevermore.
Derevi has kind of a unique sort of immortality, but it's not all that different from existing immortal commanders.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I keep getting absorbed into strategies with her like small creature aggro that just don't pan out and has me losing horribly and feeling even worse about her. I'm trying to make her again since I got feast and famine but idk.
1) Yes, Derevi, Empyrial Tactician's ability to circumvent the Commander tax is busted, but I would say that the effect is only format warping if you are building around mana denial strategies.
2) Players complaining about a deck having "too much interaction" and countering infinite combo pieces is totally asinine. We are playing a game against other people, not a goldfish.
3) If players are really playing Stax and Combo decks like Doomsday and Storm, then complaining about Sea Haven + Wilderness Reclamation + Derevi "combo" is ridiculous.
4) You've stumbled on something that I (and my regular playgroup) have found to be an interesting tipping point in deck evolution; that given enough interaction between players (i.e. enough players playing removal and/or counters), "glass cannon" and dedicated combo become less of a problem because of the amount of hate that they have to fight through. Further to that, it seems like having a dedicated combo deck also sets yourself up for not being able to stop other player's shenanigans.
5) You've also stumbled onto the fact that some players will have irrational fears and concerns about a particular General no matter what you tell them about how your deck is built. I have a Derevi deck that runs zero mana disruption, but just the fact that Derevi is sitting in my Command zone can make players want to gang up on me sometimes even if I'm just using him to untap pingers or relatively benign cards like Kazandu Tuskcaller.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Pretty much all of this is bang on. If you pack answers, combo struggles where toolbox builds have far more resilience to disruption. And yes, you could go blue in the face telling people you’re not running lockout, but seeing Derevi in command will trigger people. Same goes for Oloro, among other commanders I can’t pick off the top of my head right now. I get where that thinking comes from, but it’s not a great way to assess threats most of the time.