People tend to throw out statements like "well it's a 9 mana spell, it SHOULD win you the game" on occasion. So I was just curious - if wotc printed an unconditional sorcery that just said "you win the game", what would it have to cost to be fair? i.e. something you wouldn't complain about losing to? Let's assume for sake of argument that it's a colorless spell, eldrazi style. I can't think of many really easy ways to cheat sorcery costs (I guess jhoira? Narset?) If you think the spell would need some anti-cheat clauses to make it fair, but is otherwise fine, feel free to suggest something.
Considering you'd really make it a sorcery that is unconditional you'd have to aim rather high. A lot of very powerful cards such as Expropriate, Tooth and Nail et al go around CMC 9. At the same time U is the only color that can deal with sorceries easily. Some fast mana into said card at 7 or 8 would be banworthy and a complete feel bad thing.
With Emrakul, the Promised End, Blightsteel Colossus, Enter the Infinite and the likes in comparison i'd go further than 13.
Maybe 17, just for the sake of being the card with the highest cost in the game?
I'm curious about those anti-cheat clauses. How are you going to make sure Mizzix of the Izmagnus, Elves, fast mana or any infinite mana combos can't abuse it "too early" in the game?
Considering you'd really make it a sorcery that is unconditional you'd have to aim rather high. A lot of very powerful cards such as Expropriate, Tooth and Nail et al go around CMC 9. At the same time U is the only color that can deal with sorceries easily. Some fast mana into said card at 7 or 8 would be banworthy and a complete feel bad thing.
With Emrakul, the Promised End, Blightsteel Colossus, Enter the Infinite and the likes in comparison i'd go further than 13.
Maybe 17, just for the sake of being the card with the highest cost in the game?
I'm curious about those anti-cheat clauses. How are you going to make sure Mizzix of the Izmagnus, Elves, fast mana or any infinite mana combos can't abuse it "too early" in the game?
A clause that prevents it from being cast in an earlier turn?
Example: "This card can't be cast this game unless you've reached (number=cmc) turn this game."
Good question, but for clarification - are we talking about a card that specifically reads 'you win the game' and nothing else - like, you resolve it and win, no other provisos? If so, I'd say somewhere around 12-14 mana would be fair, with some level of colour splash depending on flavour and such.
The closest we've been to this is Coalition Victory, which is far too easily splashed and more or less, once you resolve it, you win the game given that its in pentacolour. Making the spell more expensive doesn't necessarily make it a harder win con to hit, so hoops to jump through are nice, like Approach of the Second Sun - it's not perfect, but it's definitely not as abusable as Coalition Victory would be or Laboratory Maniac is - the latter purely on the basis of being in blue and having access to stupid levels of draw/mill.
In all seriousness though, every other "win the game" card takes some amount of support, Omniscience and Tooth and Nail being the ones off the top of my head that require the lowest total mana spent to actually win after casting the initial spell. You could argue Felidar Sovereign maybe.
Good question, but for clarification - are we talking about a card that specifically reads 'you win the game' and nothing else - like, you resolve it and win, no other provisos? If so, I'd say somewhere around 12-14 mana would be fair, with some level of colour splash depending on flavour and such.
The closest we've been to this is Coalition Victory, which is far too easily splashed and more or less, once you resolve it, you win the game given that its in pentacolour. Making the spell more expensive doesn't necessarily make it a harder win con to hit, so hoops to jump through are nice, like Approach of the Second Sun - it's not perfect, but it's definitely not as abusable as Coalition Victory would be or Laboratory Maniac is - the latter purely on the basis of being in blue and having access to stupid levels of draw/mill.
I would disagree with AotSS not being abusable. You just two card combo it with either a Demonic Consultation or Spoils of the Vault. Consultation exiles six then starts digging, which Second Sun is conveniently seven deep. Spoils costs life equal to how far you have to dig, which in this case is 7 life, Second Sun just conveniently happens to give you 7 life.
From a design perspective, it's an unprintable card. From a balance perspective, I'm sure you could find some cost at which the card is fair. After all, if you make the card so ludicrously expensive that it's virtually uncastable, you basically relegate it to combo use only, and at that point it wouldn't be different from any other game winning combo. So, that suggests there must be a point where "win the game" is extremely expensive, but also not so expensive that it can't ever be hard cast under the proper conditions. So, what should that cost exactly? I don't know. You're definitely looking at double digits, but quantifying the exact amount isn't something I'm interested in since, again, this kind of effect is unprintable from a design perspective.
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Good question, but for clarification - are we talking about a card that specifically reads 'you win the game' and nothing else - like, you resolve it and win, no other provisos? If so, I'd say somewhere around 12-14 mana would be fair, with some level of colour splash depending on flavour and such.
The closest we've been to this is Coalition Victory, which is far too easily splashed and more or less, once you resolve it, you win the game given that its in pentacolour. Making the spell more expensive doesn't necessarily make it a harder win con to hit, so hoops to jump through are nice, like Approach of the Second Sun - it's not perfect, but it's definitely not as abusable as Coalition Victory would be or Laboratory Maniac is - the latter purely on the basis of being in blue and having access to stupid levels of draw/mill.
I would disagree with AotSS not being abusable. You just two card combo it with either a Demonic Consultation or Spoils of the Vault. Consultation exiles six then starts digging, which Second Sun is conveniently seven deep. Spoils costs life equal to how far you have to dig, which in this case is 7 life, Second Sun just conveniently happens to give you 7 life.
Well, yeah. I mean most 'win the game' cards have some way to bend their symmetry. There's also Venser, Shaper Savant to bounce it back to your hand, although that's a ton of mana to run through. You'd probably need to run Dream Halls or Omniscience to make it affordable. Or some sort of Peregrine Drake/Palinchron infinite mana combo.
The point was, it's not as 'land it and you win' card. It's 14 mana and at least some hoops. I think more or less the point I was making is that usually with this sort of effect it's not about how much mana it costs, its about having a suitable level of difficulty to hit. I think Approach is as close as we've got to fair, but it's still got a way to go. This is the format of big mana, after all.
From a design perspective, it's an unprintable card. From a balance perspective, I'm sure you could find some cost at which the card is fair. After all, if you make the card so ludicrously expensive that it's virtually uncastable, you basically relegate it to combo use only, and at that point it wouldn't be different from any other game winning combo. So, that suggests there must be a point where "win the game" is extremely expensive, but also not so expensive that it can't ever be hard cast under the proper conditions. So, what should that cost exactly? I don't know. You're definitely looking at double digits, but quantifying the exact amount isn't something I'm interested in since, again, this kind of effect is unprintable from a design perspective.
How about:
The Twelfth Hour7WUBRG Sorcery (MR)
The Twelfth Hour can't be cast this game unless you reached your twelfth turn this game without taking an extra turn.
You win the game.
I'd like to see a 'double or nothing' win the game card. If you haven't met X, Y or Z conditions to satisfy the win condition at EOT, you lose the game. Not sure what those conditions might be, but it'd be nice to see something like this to introduce a little variety into this sort of card.
The Twelfth Hour7WUBRG Sorcery (MR)
The Twelfth Hour can't be cast this game unless you reached your twelfth turn this game without taking an extra turn.
You win the game.
Would that work?
The problem with this design (aside from the fact that it's a game ending card that players can't interact with) is that players don't naturally track the number of turns that pass in a game, nor is it something they want to do. Sure, the person playing this card is incentivized to track the turn count (or at least they ought to, as unfun as that is), and in a digital space, it wouldn't matter at all, but for a physical game like Magic, keeping track of how many turns have passed is an annoying bookkeeping chore that detracts from the game and is irrelevant in 99% of cases. And when a player actually goes about casting this spell, because his opponents haven't been tracking the turn count, they sort of just have to take their opponent's word for it that everyone is indeed on the twelve turn of the game and not the eleventh one (because the eleventh turn feels nearly identical to the twelve turn). With Serra Avenger, you can at least count backwards and ensure you aren't casting it prematurely. Not so much with this design.
EDIT: Extra turn spells exacerbate the problems with this design even further by making the turn count less symmetrical.
From a design perspective, it's an unprintable card. From a balance perspective, I'm sure you could find some cost at which the card is fair. After all, if you make the card so ludicrously expensive that it's virtually uncastable, you basically relegate it to combo use only, and at that point it wouldn't be different from any other game winning combo. So, that suggests there must be a point where "win the game" is extremely expensive, but also not so expensive that it can't ever be hard cast under the proper conditions. So, what should that cost exactly? I don't know. You're definitely looking at double digits, but quantifying the exact amount isn't something I'm interested in since, again, this kind of effect is unprintable from a design perspective.
How about:
The Twelfth Hour7WUBRG Sorcery (MR)
The Twelfth Hour can't be cast this game unless you reached your twelfth turn this game without taking an extra turn.
You win the game.
What about 20 mana, same as a starting life total. and how about ~~can only be cast using mana from basic lands.
That seems like enough hoops to have to jump through to win the game on the spot. The only way to get it off fast is by somehow putting all or most of your lands into play.
The Twelfth Hour7WUBRG Sorcery (MR)
The Twelfth Hour can't be cast this game unless you reached your twelfth turn this game without taking an extra turn.
You win the game.
Would that work?
The problem with this design (aside from the fact that it's a game ending card that players can't interact with) is that players don't naturally track the number of turns that pass in a game, nor is it something they want to do. Sure, the person playing this card is incentivized to track the turn count (or at least they ought to, as unfun as that is), and in a digital space, it wouldn't matter at all, but for a physical game like Magic, keeping track of how many turns have passed is an annoying bookkeeping chore that detracts from the game and is irrelevant in 99% of cases. And when a player actually goes about casting this spell, because his opponents haven't been tracking the turn count, they sort of just have to take their opponent's word for it that everyone is indeed on the twelve turn of the game and not the eleventh one (because the eleventh turn feels nearly identical to the twelve turn). With Serra Avenger, you can at least count backwards and ensure you aren't casting it prematurely. Not so much with this design.
Really? I personally keep track of turns as I used to play to with Serra Avenger frequently and that its just become a habit ever since. I also make sure to write a small note, about when I went, with parenthesis such as "Turn 0 (went second)". Turn 0 being important because of Gemstone Caverns which I did run during TSP era and now in my commander decks.
The Twelfth Hour7WUBRG Sorcery (MR)
The Twelfth Hour can't be cast this game unless you reached your twelfth turn this game without taking an extra turn.
You win the game.
Would that work?
“If it’s your twelfth turn, you win the game.”
Would need some variation of the text "...without taking an extra turn." as it can be abused if not put in place like Axolotl pointed out. But otherwise, yes.
I mean, yeah. Most folks don't track that kind of stuff, especially if they're just casual players. You might take some extensive notes while you play, but that's pretty far from the norm. Hell, where I play, a lot of players don't even write their own life totals down, let alone their opponent's. They just track their life with a pair of d20s. Going so far as to record what turn the game is on is pretty unusual.
I mean, yeah. Most folks don't track that kind of stuff, especially if they're just casual players. You might take some extensive notes while you play, but that's pretty far from the norm. Hell, where I play, a lot of players don't even write their own life totals down, let alone their opponent's. They just track their life with a pair of d20s. Going so far as to record what turn the game is on is pretty unusual.
I use D20's. It's laborious, but it's what I have. And yeah, I definitely don't track numbers of turns.
What about 20 mana, same as a starting life total. and how about ~~can only be cast using mana from basic lands.
That seems like enough hoops to have to jump through to win the game on the spot. The only way to get it off fast is by somehow putting all or most of your lands into play.
I feel like the way to make it seem fairer is not tied to mana cost. There are so many ways to produce oodles of mana in EDH it'll always be breakable.
I think you need to specify some limitations on your proposed card if you want a more informative response.
A vanilla "You win the game" on a sorcery would be too powerful at any cost, mana cost is a false restriction, it is relatively easy to overcome.
If it was instead "You win the game, if you meet condition X", well there are already plenty of cards just like that, with varying CMC and varying difficulty in achieving their condition.
Personally, I think anything that “wins the game” needs to have a “loses the game” rider attached to balance it appropriately. Like Final Fortune.
This is one I’ve been working on for a while-
Last Hurrah2RWBUG Sorcery
As an additional cost to cast this spell, pay half your life, rounded up.
If your lifetotal is greater than your starting lifetotal, you win the game, otherwise, you lose the game instead.
There has to be a downside to running a spell like this besides it’s mana cost or other restrictions, otherwise they will always be exploited.
Door to Nothingness I one of the most straight forward you win the game cards and it has pretty ridiculous mana requirements (and is technically an your opponent looses card).
From my gut feeling I would go with something round and nice like 20 mana...
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From my gut feeling I would go with something round and nice like 20 mana...
The original question was about an "unconditional" win the game card. Practically, this means that the mana cost is irrelevant in the face of things like:
Many posts in this thread have talked about adding additional conditions, like only being cast with mana from basic lands or only being able to cast it after turn X, etc. At that point, you're just creating another alternate wincon card, like we have many of already.
I think you need to specify some limitations on your proposed card if you want a more informative response.
A vanilla "You win the game" on a sorcery would be too powerful at any cost, mana cost is a false restriction, it is relatively easy to overcome.
If it was instead "You win the game, if you meet condition X", well there are already plenty of cards just like that, with varying CMC and varying difficulty in achieving their condition.
Well, I partly ask because of cards like, say, expropriate which require no setup and win the game pretty reliably (though by no means always), and frequently the defense of allowing cards of this ilk are "well, it's 9 mana, it ought to win you the game!". Which, I mean, that's an opinion, I don't mean to discount it. Some people presumably do think 9 mana is the point at which the game ought to be wrapped up and there's nothing objectively wrong with that. Judging from the voting thus far, though, either those people were being facetious or they're in a pretty stark minority.
Personally I'm not a fan of cards that instantly win the game with very limited avenues of interaction, at any cost. I'm not sure if I think expropriate should be banned, but it's definitely not a card I would mourn losing and I avoid running it myself because it requires so little effort to make oppressive.
For the record I don't mind T&N nearly as much. It can be interacted with much more easily (every color has creature interaction, only blue has effective sorcery interaction), and requires some amount of intentional build-around to win the game.
I think adding a progenitus-esque mana cost to the spell is kind of problematic to the question, not because it makes it harder to cast, but because it makes it harder to include. Once you add all the mana symbols to a card you're saying only 5c generals can run it, which immediately hugely limits the impact. In my experience I'd say less than 5% of people play 5c in a given game. Even something really broken, if only 5% of decks can run it, probably isn't going to ruin the format as we know it.
If that's the strict answer to this, the only answer is 'never fair at any cost'. If you can produce 12-14 mana in EDH, there's a pretty good chance you can produce almost any amount. I can't think of a color combination that doesn't have access to infinite/arbitrarily large piles of mana.
No, the only way to make it fair is additional conditions. The more of those you impose, the less likely people play the card at all. I'll never complain about someone pulling off Barren Glory - chances are they earned it.
No wrong answers, I'm just curious.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Considering you'd really make it a sorcery that is unconditional you'd have to aim rather high. A lot of very powerful cards such as Expropriate, Tooth and Nail et al go around CMC 9. At the same time U is the only color that can deal with sorceries easily. Some fast mana into said card at 7 or 8 would be banworthy and a complete feel bad thing.
With Emrakul, the Promised End, Blightsteel Colossus, Enter the Infinite and the likes in comparison i'd go further than 13.
Maybe 17, just for the sake of being the card with the highest cost in the game?
I'm curious about those anti-cheat clauses. How are you going to make sure Mizzix of the Izmagnus, Elves, fast mana or any infinite mana combos can't abuse it "too early" in the game?
Example: "This card can't be cast this game unless you've reached (number=cmc) turn this game."
The closest we've been to this is Coalition Victory, which is far too easily splashed and more or less, once you resolve it, you win the game given that its in pentacolour. Making the spell more expensive doesn't necessarily make it a harder win con to hit, so hoops to jump through are nice, like Approach of the Second Sun - it's not perfect, but it's definitely not as abusable as Coalition Victory would be or Laboratory Maniac is - the latter purely on the basis of being in blue and having access to stupid levels of draw/mill.
In all seriousness though, every other "win the game" card takes some amount of support, Omniscience and Tooth and Nail being the ones off the top of my head that require the lowest total mana spent to actually win after casting the initial spell. You could argue Felidar Sovereign maybe.
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From a design perspective, it's an unprintable card. From a balance perspective, I'm sure you could find some cost at which the card is fair. After all, if you make the card so ludicrously expensive that it's virtually uncastable, you basically relegate it to combo use only, and at that point it wouldn't be different from any other game winning combo. So, that suggests there must be a point where "win the game" is extremely expensive, but also not so expensive that it can't ever be hard cast under the proper conditions. So, what should that cost exactly? I don't know. You're definitely looking at double digits, but quantifying the exact amount isn't something I'm interested in since, again, this kind of effect is unprintable from a design perspective.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Well, yeah. I mean most 'win the game' cards have some way to bend their symmetry. There's also Venser, Shaper Savant to bounce it back to your hand, although that's a ton of mana to run through. You'd probably need to run Dream Halls or Omniscience to make it affordable. Or some sort of Peregrine Drake/Palinchron infinite mana combo.
The point was, it's not as 'land it and you win' card. It's 14 mana and at least some hoops. I think more or less the point I was making is that usually with this sort of effect it's not about how much mana it costs, its about having a suitable level of difficulty to hit. I think Approach is as close as we've got to fair, but it's still got a way to go. This is the format of big mana, after all.
The Twelfth Hour 7WUBRG
Sorcery (MR)
The Twelfth Hour can't be cast this game unless you reached your twelfth turn this game without taking an extra turn.
You win the game.
Would that work?
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EDIT: Extra turn spells exacerbate the problems with this design even further by making the turn count less symmetrical.Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
“If it’s your twelfth turn, you win the game.”
That seems like enough hoops to have to jump through to win the game on the spot. The only way to get it off fast is by somehow putting all or most of your lands into play.
Would need some variation of the text "...without taking an extra turn." as it can be abused if not put in place like Axolotl pointed out. But otherwise, yes.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
I use D20's. It's laborious, but it's what I have. And yeah, I definitely don't track numbers of turns.
Easy enough with Collective Voyage and Amulet of Vigor. Or High Tide. Or Crypt Ghast, Nirkana Revenant, Mana Reflection, Heartbeat of Spring et al.
I feel like the way to make it seem fairer is not tied to mana cost. There are so many ways to produce oodles of mana in EDH it'll always be breakable.
A vanilla "You win the game" on a sorcery would be too powerful at any cost, mana cost is a false restriction, it is relatively easy to overcome.
If it was instead "You win the game, if you meet condition X", well there are already plenty of cards just like that, with varying CMC and varying difficulty in achieving their condition.
This is one I’ve been working on for a while-
Last Hurrah 2RWBUG
Sorcery
As an additional cost to cast this spell, pay half your life, rounded up.
If your lifetotal is greater than your starting lifetotal, you win the game, otherwise, you lose the game instead.
There has to be a downside to running a spell like this besides it’s mana cost or other restrictions, otherwise they will always be exploited.
From my gut feeling I would go with something round and nice like 20 mana...
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Many posts in this thread have talked about adding additional conditions, like only being cast with mana from basic lands or only being able to cast it after turn X, etc. At that point, you're just creating another alternate wincon card, like we have many of already.
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Personally I'm not a fan of cards that instantly win the game with very limited avenues of interaction, at any cost. I'm not sure if I think expropriate should be banned, but it's definitely not a card I would mourn losing and I avoid running it myself because it requires so little effort to make oppressive.
For the record I don't mind T&N nearly as much. It can be interacted with much more easily (every color has creature interaction, only blue has effective sorcery interaction), and requires some amount of intentional build-around to win the game.
I think adding a progenitus-esque mana cost to the spell is kind of problematic to the question, not because it makes it harder to cast, but because it makes it harder to include. Once you add all the mana symbols to a card you're saying only 5c generals can run it, which immediately hugely limits the impact. In my experience I'd say less than 5% of people play 5c in a given game. Even something really broken, if only 5% of decks can run it, probably isn't going to ruin the format as we know it.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
No, the only way to make it fair is additional conditions. The more of those you impose, the less likely people play the card at all. I'll never complain about someone pulling off Barren Glory - chances are they earned it.