I can't honestly tell if people agree with me or not, but at the end of the day, boros isn't objectively weaker than any other colour combination (or at least not within a significant margin). It might need more care in playing and building, but it is by no means strictly worse than whatever other colour combination.
And how would someone show if it actually was objectively worse?
There's actually one way due to the nature of the format, depending on how you define objectively worse. Boros lacks a commander that can compete at cEDH tables or near cEDH. I believe every other color and color combo has at least one. By that metric, it's easy to label Boros the worst. Extending it into 75%, Boros only has a couple commanders that I think can compete, Iroas Aurelia 1 and maybe Gisela, which is fewer than any other color or combo and they themselves are on the lower end of viability. In more casual metas, it's not as clear cut. Boros is very likely still the worst but I've found that the game isn't very pronounced, and that what Boros does well (aggro) does much better in more casual metas. It also has a wider variety of viable commanders at that level, like Depala Firesong/Sunspeaker, the partners, Tiana, etc.
I'd probably agree that mono white is the second worst, with gruul third, after which I'm not sure between Selesnya and Naya. Every combination that has access to black or blue has access to plenty of great options, except maybe Rakdos which is a bot more limited (both by available commanders and by the weaknesses of the color pair).
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Mono white is definitely the next worst. And after that it's probably still not a mono color--I think either selesnya or orzhov are worse than mono red in the grand scheme, but not 100% sure about that. It starts to become about playstyles, and either GW or WB have a lot of strong generals with different build approaches, so hard to say for sure.
Mono red is kinda unique in that it has a ton of very powerful generals; Godo, Kiki, Krenko and Daretti are all quite strong, enough to each create a unique deck.
Kinda talking myself out of it here as I think on it, I guess mono red is probably worse than Selesnya or Orzhov, but really depends on your perspective. Competitive viability, I think mono red is definitely stronger, but it's really hard to say--it's possible Tymna is good enough to straight up be better than mono red though, I really am not sure anymore.
Red weirdly gets worse by adding white because the commander options are just...horrifyingly bad? Like there is not a single one that is as good as the top 3-4 selesnya or orzhov commanders. It's gross how bad the generals are.
(just for funzies list)
Red
Godo
Purphoros
Kiki-Jiki
Krenko
Selesnya
Captain Sisay
Selvala, Explorer Returned
Saffi Eriksdotter
Gaddock Teeg
Karametra
Rhys the Redeemed
Orzhov
Tymna
Teysa Karlov
Karlov
Kambal
Is there a single boros commander better than any of those?
Well, there's been a good deal of discussion here!
I felt a bit or tbe Boros discomfort whennI first gave my Brios Stoutarm deck to my son. At first, a lor of "What do you play this for?' questions at first, but in the end, he got to be comfortable with it. Boros has, of course, its limitations, but if you want to play, you have to work with what you have, There, in wanting to play Boros, is where maybe the cultural issue manifests itself. if we don't repeat the "Boros sucks" mantra maybe more people would want to play it. In my store metaz a mix or competitive and casual. I am the only one that plays boros, and tbh, I do quite well. But I play Brion because I find it fun, not because I'm after a solid winning streak. "Boros sucks" comes from focusing on how effective is at winning a lot, but lots of people just don't care about it that much (We all like winning after all XD).
Players with more competitive mindset and I would dare to say more prestige ussualy have a particular set of parameters to assess cards and decks and that sometimes can go against experimentation. I know it might sound stupid to some, but sometimes when I'm asked why I play a particular card or strategy my answrr is "I liked this card and I want to try it." Even when a whole.community has already assessed the card and reached some.kind of consesus. Boros is not thta effective within competitive parameters, but it can float people's boat. I'm old and I play since forever, but a younger or newer player might feel discouraged by this.
The hippo got it right, in a non-cEDH setting Boros is capable of competing, albeit with a lot more hoops to jump through than say Golgari colored decks. However, its really the only dual color that has no legs whatsoever in cEDH, where Commanders need a function and not just being an excuse for a color identity (the partners perform this better anyway).
I also agree that EDHREC popularity is also a poor judge of competitiveness. Circu, Dimir Lobotomist is a solid Dramatic Scepter wincon with a playstyle like lantern control for shutting of the same wincons run in a lot of decks, just by exiling it from one. Despite this he sits under 200 decks built and thats largely due to how linear and dull he is for casual pods, eating (rightly) a lot of focus for just being annoying.
But the "Boros sucks" attitude isn't just an issue in cEDH, where its an obvious fact that Boros sucks, but in less competitive metas as well, which is something you and Dirk seem to be missing. There are a lot of people out there who think that its pointless to run even in relaxed playgroups. Beyond mld helping in 75% metas, even pretty casual playgroups I've seen where a Boros deck wouldn't even need mld to compete shy away form the color combo because "it sucks." That's a larger culture problem.
This is exactly my point. My addendum to that is that makind land control more acceptable makes Boros stronger and may help with that culture problem.
Making mass land destruction more socially acceptable makes mono red, mono white, and Wx and Rx decks better.
Azorius gains arguably more from armageddon being acceptable than Boros (which rarely is going to want to play the Red effects which are mostly worse or more situational or more expensive).
Making mass land destruction more socially acceptable makes mono red, mono white, and Wx and Rx decks better.
Azorius gains arguably more from armageddon being acceptable than Boros (which rarely is going to want to play the Red effects which are mostly worse or more situational or more expensive).
People keep saying this, but I'm not sure its actually true. Other colors and combos would certainly benefit, but to be honest they aren't going to benefit that much compared to the options they already have. Adding Geddon effects would make UW a little bit better, but it would make RW significantly better, because it matters more to RW to get it as an option. RW also is one of the better positioned color pairs to take advantage of mld as mld does a great deal to help aggro, while RW is primarily an aggro color. BW would probably benefit tremendously as well, but doesn't need it as much.
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Gw has dorks and land recursion and land tutors. It stands to gain far more than rw.
UW has artifact tutors and numerous tools that benefit artifact ramp.
Mld is not just for aggro.
However, Gw is significantly better at aggro than rw in edh due to ramp elements (dorks are the best aggro followed by tokens both of which gw does better).
Boros is probably the 9th best aggro option after gw, rg, rb, and all the 3+ combos with red or white.
It's somewhat mind-boggling to me that we're still all over the place. I was under the impression that we're discussing how RW being weak is a cultural phenomena. And this thread seems to be indicating that there might be some substance to that.
The strange thing is that most people on this thread are showing that yes, RW being weak is a cultural phenomenon. I don't think it's possible to show objectively that any one colour is 'better' than any other. What it does show is that some colours are more popular/accessible than others (imperial painter was one of the best decks in legacy not too long ago, but it almost never showed up anywhere). But it's kinda beside the point, innit?
As it stands, it seems like everyone agrees that it's a cultural artefact (since we all accept that it's there). or?
I don't think it's possible to show objectively that any one colour is 'better' than any other.
I think an general answer for all forms of the edh expierience is not possible but for certain parts i genuinely think it is possible for example cEDH.
But due to sample size and the meta of the playgroups that is not a devinitive answer but it might be an indication.
Edit: It is helpful to watch the vid to see how the data was prepared
Even worse than Boros being perceived 'weak', is probably how narrow, single-direction and plain BORING RW is as a color combo. Regardless of what you're doing as a deck direction, regardless of your commander, you find yourself using nearly the same pool of support cards and artifact mana to get anywhere. There's less variety in commander-usable cards, somewhat because a lot of the cards of the colors point towards early weenie aggro, which is not exactly in the department of 'battlecruiser'. For any other color combination, finding usable oddballs and hidden gems is easier.
...and that said deck direction for RW is almost universally the red zone, with maybe some slight variation on tall vs. wide.
If you see almost any other color combination or general across from you, there's some unpredictability on what might be coming for you. Just a touch less so for Boros. Even if some RW commanders are playable, there's yet to be a RW commander that can power multiple kinds of decks.
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X Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile W Ghosty Blinky Anafenza U Nezahal- Big, Blue and HERE! B Gonti Can Afford It R Etali, Primal 'Whatjusthappened?' G Polukranos Wants More Mana WU The Exalted Vizier Temmet WB Home, Athreos WR Basandra, Recursive Aggression WG Karametra, Momma of Lands UB Wrexial Eats Your Brains UR Arjun, the Mad Flame UG The Fable of Prime Speaker BR Hellbent, Malfegor Style BG Jarad, Death is Served RG Running Thromok WUB Varina and ALL the Zombies WUBYennett, the Odd Pain-Train WUR Zedruu the Furyhearted WUG Arcades' Strategy, Shmategy, Sausage and Spam WBR A Case of Mathas' Persistent F*ckery WBRLicia's League of Legendary Lifegain Layabouts WBG The Karador Advantage PackageWRG Gahiji Rattlesnake Collection UBR Jeleva... does... things UBG Damia's Just Deserts URG Yasova's Has More Power Than Sense BRG Wasitora, Bad Kitty WUBRBreya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs WUBG Tymna and Kydele, Extended Borrowing WURG Kynaios and Tiro, Landfall Impersonations WBRG Saskia Pet Card EnchantressUBRG Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation WUBRG Tazri's Amazing Allies
Eh, there are plenty of objective-ish measures of strength.
One can compare the best card in red (Wheel of Fortune to the best card in black (Vampiric tutor or Demonic Tutor maybe, maybe even Necropotence or Yawgmoth's will) and see that all four of the best cards in black are probably somewhat more powerful than the best red card. Though Wheel vs. Will/Necropotence I'm iffy on.
If you do a deeper analysis you'll likely find that in the context of commander Red and White just have weaker cards. So that's one measure that is fairly easy to analyze.
White, similarly, has Enlightened Tutor as its best card and that is significantly weaker than DT or Vamp, while stronger than necro or yawg's will (I think).
Obviously there is a better way to do that analysis but that's just a kinda rough poke at it to show that it's possible to analyze.
One thing that definitely stands out to me, looking through the boros commanders, is just how shafted boros has gotten in the precons. All the boros-specific commanders are confusingly bad, and just plain confusing, design-wise.
Basandra, Battle Seraph is a semi-interesting design - force attacks and prevent them from doing anything to mitigate blockers. But RW are the colors most likely to want to cast stuff during combat - attacker-only removal, instant-speed creature theft, combat tricks, all things that have historically been major parts of boros. Besides that, way too conservative on the costs compared to edric and nin. But it was their first commander product and the idea wasn't terrible, so we'll cut them a little slack.
Then 2014 comes around and the boros commanders were just...unforgivable. Like, so bad it makes me wonder if whoever designed it has ever played commander before. First there's kalemne, disciple of iroas. He's got a decent body, stat-wise, but his experience mechanic is a mess. First of all, the benefit he gets from experience is pretty meh, compared to any of the other commanders in the cycle. But then on top of that, he's also by far the hardest to trigger of any of them. And he triggers in a way that makes absolutely no sense - kalemne screams voltron, but then he wants you cast other creatures. And not just utility creatures, but big expensive creatures. Sure, there are a couple stonehewer giant-type utility fatties, but the vast majority of boros fatties are, well, fatties, making them totally redundant with a voltron plan.
Even worse is anya, merciless angel. For starters, keeping people alive is not how you play aggro in EDH. You kill the biggest threat, then you kill the next biggest threat. Leaving them alive at half-health is just asking to be overwhelmed. For a second thing, anya also looks like an obvious voltron commander - because she does nothing except attack and block, just like kalemne - but her ability ALSO makes no damn sense with voltron. By the time you've set someone to half-health with anya, they're dead from commander damage anyway. So you've either got to run a bunch of other ways to deal damage just to set up anya to not suck, or you've got to hope your opponents take pity on you and set each other to half-health for you. And even for all that, if anya was just a 7/7 indestructible all the time, she'd still be mediocre and uninteresting. They knew everyone thought boros sucked already, and they literally just gave us two beaters. Honestly it was hard not to feel like deliberate spite, they were so bad.
Making all of this so, so much more painful is how absolutely bonkers other commanders in the same set were. I think I've seen every other, or nearly every other, commander in that set sitting across from me at a table, but I've never seen either of the boros ones. Even the commanders I rarely see are still head and shoulders above what boros got.
I can't totally begrudge wotc making disappointing boros commanders in standard-legal sets. They're looking toward standard first, and the commanders don't look nearly as redundant without all the previous boros legends playable alongside them. But what they've given boros in commander products is just heinous. If they were deliberately trying to make them suck, they couldn't have hit the target much closer.
Yeah I absolutely agree with Dirk on Boros commanders.
There is a busted or nearly busted commander in literally every other color / combo:
W - Teshar, I guess? Maybe Heliod is strong?
R - Kiki, Krenko, Purph, Godo
G - Azusa, Selvala, Yisan
B - sidisi
U - baral, arcum, and on and on
RW - ... Maybe there's a one of the hybrid generals from Khans that could be built Boros?? I can't remember them all
WB - Karlov, Teysa
WG - selvala, sisay, saffi
WU - grand arbiter, lavinia
GR - I can't think of a busted one, but there are a few very strong - Nikya, Mira and Denn, Xenagos, new Radha maybe?
GB - Gitrog, probably others I'm not thinking of
GU - Vannifar, Momir, etc.
BR - Oh, Grenzo and Vial Smasher, and new Xantcha isn't bad
BU - new Lazav, Scarab God, not to mention tasigur and inalla who can be played UB
UR - Nivs, Keranos, Saheeli
And then into the 3 colors it's obvious almost every 3 color combo has at least one insanely strong commander.
RW has a few barely passable commanders and the rest is utter trash. Probably the only color combo close to as crappy is GR which suffers from similar aggro-pidgeonholing issues.
(As a total side note, this is probably the piece I find most exciting about PWs as generals - that some underserved colors would get playable commanders -- Nahiri would be exceptional in EDH, and RW Ajani would be decent).
One thing that definitely stands out to me, looking through the boros commanders, is just how shafted boros has gotten in the precons. All the boros-specific commanders are confusingly bad, and just plain confusing, design-wise.
Basandra, Battle Seraph is a semi-interesting design - force attacks and prevent them from doing anything to mitigate blockers. But RW are the colors most likely to want to cast stuff during combat - attacker-only removal, instant-speed creature theft, combat tricks, all things that have historically been major parts of boros. Besides that, way too conservative on the costs compared to edric and nin. But it was their first commander product and the idea wasn't terrible, so we'll cut them a little slack.
Then 2014 comes around and the boros commanders were just...unforgivable. Like, so bad it makes me wonder if whoever designed it has ever played commander before. First there's kalemne, disciple of iroas. He's got a decent body, stat-wise, but his experience mechanic is a mess. First of all, the benefit he gets from experience is pretty meh, compared to any of the other commanders in the cycle. But then on top of that, he's also by far the hardest to trigger of any of them. And he triggers in a way that makes absolutely no sense - kalemne screams voltron, but then he wants you cast other creatures. And not just utility creatures, but big expensive creatures. Sure, there are a couple stonehewer giant-type utility fatties, but the vast majority of boros fatties are, well, fatties, making them totally redundant with a voltron plan.
Even worse is anya, merciless angel. For starters, keeping people alive is not how you play aggro in EDH. You kill the biggest threat, then you kill the next biggest threat. Leaving them alive at half-health is just asking to be overwhelmed. For a second thing, anya also looks like an obvious voltron commander - because she does nothing except attack and block, just like kalemne - but her ability ALSO makes no damn sense with voltron. By the time you've set someone to half-health with anya, they're dead from commander damage anyway. So you've either got to run a bunch of other ways to deal damage just to set up anya to not suck, or you've got to hope your opponents take pity on you and set each other to half-health for you. And even for all that, if anya was just a 7/7 indestructible all the time, she'd still be mediocre and uninteresting. They knew everyone thought boros sucked already, and they literally just gave us two beaters. Honestly it was hard not to feel like deliberate spite, they were so bad.
Making all of this so, so much more painful is how absolutely bonkers other commanders in the same set were. I think I've seen every other, or nearly every other, commander in that set sitting across from me at a table, but I've never seen either of the boros ones. Even the commanders I rarely see are still head and shoulders above what boros got.
I can't totally begrudge wotc making disappointing boros commanders in standard-legal sets. They're looking toward standard first, and the commanders don't look nearly as redundant without all the previous boros legends playable alongside them. But what they've given boros in commander products is just heinous. If they were deliberately trying to make them suck, they couldn't have hit the target much closer.
This is an incredibly important point. Boros has well and truly been shafted in precons. Typically awful design in general, but what is even worse is that the designs are boring. It's all aggro, just not as good at being aggro than standard legal legends have been, while other colors either leaned into already strong themes (like reanimator and spellslinger) or experimented and gave the colors something new (skullbriaf, Daxos). Only Basandra tried something new but was far too weak (her ability should have read "your opponents" rather than players, which would have let you not only force bad attacks where your opponents couldn't do anything, but where you could).
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Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Basandra, Battle Seraph is a semi-interesting design - force attacks and prevent them from doing anything to mitigate blockers. But RW are the colors most likely to want to cast stuff during combat - attacker-only removal, instant-speed creature theft, combat tricks, all things that have historically been major parts of boros. Besides that, way too conservative on the costs compared to edric and nin. But it was their first commander product and the idea wasn't terrible, so we'll cut them a little slack.
Well, there's also green. Black and blue have a few things, but most people play Grasp of Darkness and the like as straight up removal, and Hydrosurge is a late draft and then goes straight in the bargain bin. (Though of course bounce spells are always playable to save your own creatures.)
Then 2014 comes around and the boros commanders were just...unforgivable. Like, so bad it makes me wonder if whoever designed it has ever played commander before. First there's kalemne, disciple of iroas. He's got a decent body, stat-wise, but his experience mechanic is a mess. First of all, the benefit he gets from experience is pretty meh, compared to any of the other commanders in the cycle. But then on top of that, he's also by far the hardest to trigger of any of them. And he triggers in a way that makes absolutely no sense - kalemne screams voltron, but then he wants you cast other creatures. And not just utility creatures, but big expensive creatures. Sure, there are a couple stonehewer giant-type utility fatties, but the vast majority of boros fatties are, well, fatties, making them totally redundant with a voltron plan.
*She does have double strike, which is about the only thing going for her. She has a few utility creatures, but they tend to be things like titans, Steel Hellkite, Archangel of Strife (I choose war. Every time.), that sort of thing. You can help things run smoothly with medallions and monuments, but seriously, she doesn't feel Voltron.
Even worse is anya, merciless angel. For starters, keeping people alive is not how you play aggro in EDH. You kill the biggest threat, then you kill the next biggest threat. Leaving them alive at half-health is just asking to be overwhelmed. For a second thing, anya also looks like an obvious voltron commander - because she does nothing except attack and block, just like kalemne - but her ability ALSO makes no damn sense with voltron. By the time you've set someone to half-health with anya, they're dead from commander damage anyway. So you've either got to run a bunch of other ways to deal damage just to set up anya to not suck, or you've got to hope your opponents take pity on you and set each other to half-health for you. And even for all that, if anya was just a 7/7 indestructible all the time, she'd still be mediocre and uninteresting. They knew everyone thought boros sucked already, and they literally just gave us two beaters. Honestly it was hard not to feel like deliberate spite, they were so bad.
Yeah, I remember when Anya came out, my thought was why? If I had a way to Thanos-snap my opponent's life total, I wouldn't be playing Voltron.
Making all of this so, so much more painful is how absolutely bonkers other commanders in the same set were. I think I've seen every other, or nearly every other, commander in that set sitting across from me at a table, but I've never seen either of the boros ones. Even the commanders I rarely see are still head and shoulders above what boros got.
Yep. I mean, when you consider one of them was an infinite-turns combo with Sage of Hours, there's really no excuse for the imbalance.
The next time we saw Boros was in the four-color sets: Enemy colors got two partners. Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder is what I call the "off-theme" partner, but he is very typical Boros (which if you've been following this thread, you know what that means). The "on-theme" partner, Akiri, Line-Slinger, at least is useful, since she basically comes with her own Cranial Plating.
(This "on-theme/off-theme" dichotomy is harder to see in Saskia and Yidris, but trust me, it's there.)
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ehhh. i think in order to make up for the color pairing's weaknesses you end up having to go really hard on things like mld, artifact destruction, board wipes, all that jazz. that'd be great but you're also lacking solid ways to draw and solid ways to ramp.
looting doesn't really net you any advantage and you're pretty much entirely reliant on red for that. there's some alternative ways to draw in white but you have to jump through some hoops and thats inefficient.
your ramp options leave you susceptible to artifact destruction because thats really the only way you're going to ramp in these colors, and you're not abusing them the way other colors can.
wrecking fun by going hard on mld and removal will make you public enemy, you're too slow to drop fatties and they don't end the game on the spot, you can't go wide because your ways to refuel are almost zero so a single board wipe is a blow out, heck even pushing a strategy of wipes and removal... great your cast armageddon then what? most other decks are going to have ways around that while refueling their hand you actually probably did the blue player a favor.
sure, the color pair does have a lot of options but they're so... inefficient, counter productive to your strategies, or just... bad, compared to well, every other color pair.
white does too much of everything without excelling at anything, and red is very narrow in its game plan. together they create a very mediocre deck. maybe you have success with your build, but on the whole most people don't get anywhere with r/w.
now think about every other pairing. that's not a culture problem. that's a design problem.
all of that said, yeah, i agree, boris sucks. he thought he was invincible after all.
all of that said, yeah, i agree, boris sucks. he thought he was invincible after all.
Thank you. I was considering making this joke, but I didn't know if this was the crowd for mid-90's Bond references.
Also, Boros getting the shaft in the precons is most definitely a valid point. Sure, aggressive go-wide strategies are a big part of that color combination, but is that really it?
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I think that eventually design will get there. Firesong and Sunspeaker was a try, but once again, they kept it too safe. The might have read the fact that Tamanoa is one of the favourite amongst unofficial commanders, but failed to deliver.
The Firseing and sunspeaker design speaks for irself. They refraines feom printing it as "Whenever an instant or sorceey spell causes you to gain life, F&S deals that much damage to any target" whixh would could have allowed a lot of experimentation in the search of explosive wins. They costed it too high to prevent lifegain from going up too fast and limited tje effect to instants and soeceries and snatched away the Tamanoa dream of amassing awesome life totals out of damage or taking advantage from auto-damage (Like janking off Darien and painlands)
Another the departments I feel Boros is lacking is in the Aristocrats approach. Both white and red go with it but there's a serious lack or support for the strategy. Boros can make tons of weenies but it's hard to find something to do solidly with them.
Boros has also taken a small hit from the change of the damage redirection to planeswlakers rule.
One thing I do not agree is that Boros is not solid in the battlecruiser approach and I actually think is a good way for boros to overcome some of its limitations. Dropping threats aftee threat instead of spending your time building up rocks to make Boros be what is not is usually a solid approach. There are three opponents and a limited number of answers, so spending them in your janky Taurean Mauler has to be thought twice. As it has been said, Boros is good at killing one player and that's something to reckon.
I think the design will eventually get there, but they have been too coy. Even for equipment synergy the commanders are a bit lacking.
They just need make a boros legendary with the Sunforger effect and it would be extremely playable. If Simic can get Birthing Pod with legs with Prime Speaker Vannifar, then Boros can certainly get Sunforger with legs.
Like I've said before they could staple any of the hundreds of cool effects in r/w to creatures instead of the nonsense they do. There's a huge number of very cool effects on non-legendary critters. Just need to build it
Instead of "X/X doublestrike vigilant blah blah hope you like being out of cards"
I think the design will eventually get there, but they have been too coy. Even for equipment synergy the commanders are a bit lacking.
This is what's always annoyed me about the boros designs. Equipment, as a card type, naturally provide recurring value of the sort a lot of boros commanders lack. Equipment is solidly in boros' wheelhouse but the first legend to actually have any direct equipment synergy was tiana who was...well...really really bad. And really hard to get any actual equipment synergy from.
I think really aggressive decks tend to be generally worse in multiplayer because you have to invest a lot in killing someone while the others tend to set up (similar to why infect is so weak in Commander). Also aggro players could often have problems with their opponents'threat assasment since many people will focus more on someone with big beaters in play who's hitting them even tough the green player with 15 mana on turn 6 could potentially be a bigger thread.
And of course you don't have to play aggro in Boros but there are nearly no viable Boros options for other strategies and if your commander doesn't encourage what you're doing (like eg stax or Ld) you can probably find a better one in other colours.
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I apologize for my English, it's not my main language.
Adriana and the Battlebond duo were combat-focused. New guild legends and mechanic also focused on it. Meanwhile Dimir got two generals that were not-strictly mill.
I have been rather enjoying boros for its ability to kill lots of permanents in a hurry. Red and white multi-permanent destruction, red "draw" with white reanimation is actually a pretty nasty combination. I think solar flare is about as viable in red/white as it is in any other color combination. Admittedly, it isn't as obviously strong as others, but tonight I was playing against a meren and a jodah deck and I ran the table with the boros stack control I was playing (yes, that is correct. STACK control, not stax). If you keep everything "fair", then boros will often come out on top in the end. On the other hand, my kalemne giants deck rarely does all that well because I keep her to too much of a theme.
I think the design will eventually get there, but they have been too coy. Even for equipment synergy the commanders are a bit lacking.
This is what's always annoyed me about the boros designs. Equipment, as a card type, naturally provide recurring value of the sort a lot of boros commanders lack. Equipment is solidly in boros' wheelhouse but the first legend to actually have any direct equipment synergy was tiana who was...well...really really bad. And really hard to get any actual equipment synergy from.
Tiana is much more interesting as an aura commander (and not voltron either). There's some cool synergies there.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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There's actually one way due to the nature of the format, depending on how you define objectively worse. Boros lacks a commander that can compete at cEDH tables or near cEDH. I believe every other color and color combo has at least one. By that metric, it's easy to label Boros the worst. Extending it into 75%, Boros only has a couple commanders that I think can compete, Iroas Aurelia 1 and maybe Gisela, which is fewer than any other color or combo and they themselves are on the lower end of viability. In more casual metas, it's not as clear cut. Boros is very likely still the worst but I've found that the game isn't very pronounced, and that what Boros does well (aggro) does much better in more casual metas. It also has a wider variety of viable commanders at that level, like Depala Firesong/Sunspeaker, the partners, Tiana, etc.
I'd probably agree that mono white is the second worst, with gruul third, after which I'm not sure between Selesnya and Naya. Every combination that has access to black or blue has access to plenty of great options, except maybe Rakdos which is a bot more limited (both by available commanders and by the weaknesses of the color pair).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Mono red is kinda unique in that it has a ton of very powerful generals; Godo, Kiki, Krenko and Daretti are all quite strong, enough to each create a unique deck.
Kinda talking myself out of it here as I think on it, I guess mono red is probably worse than Selesnya or Orzhov, but really depends on your perspective. Competitive viability, I think mono red is definitely stronger, but it's really hard to say--it's possible Tymna is good enough to straight up be better than mono red though, I really am not sure anymore.
Red weirdly gets worse by adding white because the commander options are just...horrifyingly bad? Like there is not a single one that is as good as the top 3-4 selesnya or orzhov commanders. It's gross how bad the generals are.
(just for funzies list)
Red
Godo
Purphoros
Kiki-Jiki
Krenko
Selesnya
Captain Sisay
Selvala, Explorer Returned
Saffi Eriksdotter
Gaddock Teeg
Karametra
Rhys the Redeemed
Orzhov
Tymna
Teysa Karlov
Karlov
Kambal
Is there a single boros commander better than any of those?
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I felt a bit or tbe Boros discomfort whennI first gave my Brios Stoutarm deck to my son. At first, a lor of "What do you play this for?' questions at first, but in the end, he got to be comfortable with it. Boros has, of course, its limitations, but if you want to play, you have to work with what you have, There, in wanting to play Boros, is where maybe the cultural issue manifests itself. if we don't repeat the "Boros sucks" mantra maybe more people would want to play it. In my store metaz a mix or competitive and casual. I am the only one that plays boros, and tbh, I do quite well. But I play Brion because I find it fun, not because I'm after a solid winning streak. "Boros sucks" comes from focusing on how effective is at winning a lot, but lots of people just don't care about it that much (We all like winning after all XD).
Players with more competitive mindset and I would dare to say more prestige ussualy have a particular set of parameters to assess cards and decks and that sometimes can go against experimentation. I know it might sound stupid to some, but sometimes when I'm asked why I play a particular card or strategy my answrr is "I liked this card and I want to try it." Even when a whole.community has already assessed the card and reached some.kind of consesus. Boros is not thta effective within competitive parameters, but it can float people's boat. I'm old and I play since forever, but a younger or newer player might feel discouraged by this.
This is exactly my point. My addendum to that is that makind land control more acceptable makes Boros stronger and may help with that culture problem.
Azorius gains arguably more from armageddon being acceptable than Boros (which rarely is going to want to play the Red effects which are mostly worse or more situational or more expensive).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
People keep saying this, but I'm not sure its actually true. Other colors and combos would certainly benefit, but to be honest they aren't going to benefit that much compared to the options they already have. Adding Geddon effects would make UW a little bit better, but it would make RW significantly better, because it matters more to RW to get it as an option. RW also is one of the better positioned color pairs to take advantage of mld as mld does a great deal to help aggro, while RW is primarily an aggro color. BW would probably benefit tremendously as well, but doesn't need it as much.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
UW has artifact tutors and numerous tools that benefit artifact ramp.
Mld is not just for aggro.
However, Gw is significantly better at aggro than rw in edh due to ramp elements (dorks are the best aggro followed by tokens both of which gw does better).
Boros is probably the 9th best aggro option after gw, rg, rb, and all the 3+ combos with red or white.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
The strange thing is that most people on this thread are showing that yes, RW being weak is a cultural phenomenon. I don't think it's possible to show objectively that any one colour is 'better' than any other. What it does show is that some colours are more popular/accessible than others (imperial painter was one of the best decks in legacy not too long ago, but it almost never showed up anywhere). But it's kinda beside the point, innit?
As it stands, it seems like everyone agrees that it's a cultural artefact (since we all accept that it's there). or?
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
I think an general answer for all forms of the edh expierience is not possible but for certain parts i genuinely think it is possible for example cEDH.
Its also interesting to note that the commandzone had a statistican to analyse games.
See:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttGjuNXWxpY
and
https://public.tableau.com/profile/andrew.greene#!/vizhome/CommanderStatistics/COLORPAIRWIN
But due to sample size and the meta of the playgroups that is not a devinitive answer but it might be an indication.
Edit: It is helpful to watch the vid to see how the data was prepared
Even worse than Boros being perceived 'weak', is probably how narrow, single-direction and plain BORING RW is as a color combo. Regardless of what you're doing as a deck direction, regardless of your commander, you find yourself using nearly the same pool of support cards and artifact mana to get anywhere. There's less variety in commander-usable cards, somewhat because a lot of the cards of the colors point towards early weenie aggro, which is not exactly in the department of 'battlecruiser'. For any other color combination, finding usable oddballs and hidden gems is easier.
...and that said deck direction for RW is almost universally the red zone, with maybe some slight variation on tall vs. wide.
If you see almost any other color combination or general across from you, there's some unpredictability on what might be coming for you. Just a touch less so for Boros. Even if some RW commanders are playable, there's yet to be a RW commander that can power multiple kinds of decks.
One can compare the best card in red (Wheel of Fortune to the best card in black (Vampiric tutor or Demonic Tutor maybe, maybe even Necropotence or Yawgmoth's will) and see that all four of the best cards in black are probably somewhat more powerful than the best red card. Though Wheel vs. Will/Necropotence I'm iffy on.
If you do a deeper analysis you'll likely find that in the context of commander Red and White just have weaker cards. So that's one measure that is fairly easy to analyze.
White, similarly, has Enlightened Tutor as its best card and that is significantly weaker than DT or Vamp, while stronger than necro or yawg's will (I think).
Obviously there is a better way to do that analysis but that's just a kinda rough poke at it to show that it's possible to analyze.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Basandra, Battle Seraph is a semi-interesting design - force attacks and prevent them from doing anything to mitigate blockers. But RW are the colors most likely to want to cast stuff during combat - attacker-only removal, instant-speed creature theft, combat tricks, all things that have historically been major parts of boros. Besides that, way too conservative on the costs compared to edric and nin. But it was their first commander product and the idea wasn't terrible, so we'll cut them a little slack.
Then 2014 comes around and the boros commanders were just...unforgivable. Like, so bad it makes me wonder if whoever designed it has ever played commander before. First there's kalemne, disciple of iroas. He's got a decent body, stat-wise, but his experience mechanic is a mess. First of all, the benefit he gets from experience is pretty meh, compared to any of the other commanders in the cycle. But then on top of that, he's also by far the hardest to trigger of any of them. And he triggers in a way that makes absolutely no sense - kalemne screams voltron, but then he wants you cast other creatures. And not just utility creatures, but big expensive creatures. Sure, there are a couple stonehewer giant-type utility fatties, but the vast majority of boros fatties are, well, fatties, making them totally redundant with a voltron plan.
Even worse is anya, merciless angel. For starters, keeping people alive is not how you play aggro in EDH. You kill the biggest threat, then you kill the next biggest threat. Leaving them alive at half-health is just asking to be overwhelmed. For a second thing, anya also looks like an obvious voltron commander - because she does nothing except attack and block, just like kalemne - but her ability ALSO makes no damn sense with voltron. By the time you've set someone to half-health with anya, they're dead from commander damage anyway. So you've either got to run a bunch of other ways to deal damage just to set up anya to not suck, or you've got to hope your opponents take pity on you and set each other to half-health for you. And even for all that, if anya was just a 7/7 indestructible all the time, she'd still be mediocre and uninteresting. They knew everyone thought boros sucked already, and they literally just gave us two beaters. Honestly it was hard not to feel like deliberate spite, they were so bad.
Making all of this so, so much more painful is how absolutely bonkers other commanders in the same set were. I think I've seen every other, or nearly every other, commander in that set sitting across from me at a table, but I've never seen either of the boros ones. Even the commanders I rarely see are still head and shoulders above what boros got.
I can't totally begrudge wotc making disappointing boros commanders in standard-legal sets. They're looking toward standard first, and the commanders don't look nearly as redundant without all the previous boros legends playable alongside them. But what they've given boros in commander products is just heinous. If they were deliberately trying to make them suck, they couldn't have hit the target much closer.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
There is a busted or nearly busted commander in literally every other color / combo:
W - Teshar, I guess? Maybe Heliod is strong?
R - Kiki, Krenko, Purph, Godo
G - Azusa, Selvala, Yisan
B - sidisi
U - baral, arcum, and on and on
RW - ... Maybe there's a one of the hybrid generals from Khans that could be built Boros?? I can't remember them all
WB - Karlov, Teysa
WG - selvala, sisay, saffi
WU - grand arbiter, lavinia
GR - I can't think of a busted one, but there are a few very strong - Nikya, Mira and Denn, Xenagos, new Radha maybe?
GB - Gitrog, probably others I'm not thinking of
GU - Vannifar, Momir, etc.
BR - Oh, Grenzo and Vial Smasher, and new Xantcha isn't bad
BU - new Lazav, Scarab God, not to mention tasigur and inalla who can be played UB
UR - Nivs, Keranos, Saheeli
And then into the 3 colors it's obvious almost every 3 color combo has at least one insanely strong commander.
RW has a few barely passable commanders and the rest is utter trash. Probably the only color combo close to as crappy is GR which suffers from similar aggro-pidgeonholing issues.
(As a total side note, this is probably the piece I find most exciting about PWs as generals - that some underserved colors would get playable commanders -- Nahiri would be exceptional in EDH, and RW Ajani would be decent).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
This is an incredibly important point. Boros has well and truly been shafted in precons. Typically awful design in general, but what is even worse is that the designs are boring. It's all aggro, just not as good at being aggro than standard legal legends have been, while other colors either leaned into already strong themes (like reanimator and spellslinger) or experimented and gave the colors something new (skullbriaf, Daxos). Only Basandra tried something new but was far too weak (her ability should have read "your opponents" rather than players, which would have let you not only force bad attacks where your opponents couldn't do anything, but where you could).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Well, there's also green. Black and blue have a few things, but most people play Grasp of Darkness and the like as straight up removal, and Hydrosurge is a late draft and then goes straight in the bargain bin. (Though of course bounce spells are always playable to save your own creatures.)
*She does have double strike, which is about the only thing going for her. She has a few utility creatures, but they tend to be things like titans, Steel Hellkite, Archangel of Strife (I choose war. Every time.), that sort of thing. You can help things run smoothly with medallions and monuments, but seriously, she doesn't feel Voltron.
Yeah, I remember when Anya came out, my thought was why? If I had a way to Thanos-snap my opponent's life total, I wouldn't be playing Voltron.
Yep. I mean, when you consider one of them was an infinite-turns combo with Sage of Hours, there's really no excuse for the imbalance.
The next time we saw Boros was in the four-color sets: Enemy colors got two partners. Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder is what I call the "off-theme" partner, but he is very typical Boros (which if you've been following this thread, you know what that means). The "on-theme" partner, Akiri, Line-Slinger, at least is useful, since she basically comes with her own Cranial Plating.
(This "on-theme/off-theme" dichotomy is harder to see in Saskia and Yidris, but trust me, it's there.)
On phasing:
looting doesn't really net you any advantage and you're pretty much entirely reliant on red for that. there's some alternative ways to draw in white but you have to jump through some hoops and thats inefficient.
your ramp options leave you susceptible to artifact destruction because thats really the only way you're going to ramp in these colors, and you're not abusing them the way other colors can.
wrecking fun by going hard on mld and removal will make you public enemy, you're too slow to drop fatties and they don't end the game on the spot, you can't go wide because your ways to refuel are almost zero so a single board wipe is a blow out, heck even pushing a strategy of wipes and removal... great your cast armageddon then what? most other decks are going to have ways around that while refueling their hand you actually probably did the blue player a favor.
sure, the color pair does have a lot of options but they're so... inefficient, counter productive to your strategies, or just... bad, compared to well, every other color pair.
white does too much of everything without excelling at anything, and red is very narrow in its game plan. together they create a very mediocre deck. maybe you have success with your build, but on the whole most people don't get anywhere with r/w.
now think about every other pairing. that's not a culture problem. that's a design problem.
all of that said, yeah, i agree, boris sucks. he thought he was invincible after all.
Thank you. I was considering making this joke, but I didn't know if this was the crowd for mid-90's Bond references.
Also, Boros getting the shaft in the precons is most definitely a valid point. Sure, aggressive go-wide strategies are a big part of that color combination, but is that really it?
My 720 Peasant Cube
The Firseing and sunspeaker design speaks for irself. They refraines feom printing it as "Whenever an instant or sorceey spell causes you to gain life, F&S deals that much damage to any target" whixh would could have allowed a lot of experimentation in the search of explosive wins. They costed it too high to prevent lifegain from going up too fast and limited tje effect to instants and soeceries and snatched away the Tamanoa dream of amassing awesome life totals out of damage or taking advantage from auto-damage (Like janking off Darien and painlands)
Another the departments I feel Boros is lacking is in the Aristocrats approach. Both white and red go with it but there's a serious lack or support for the strategy. Boros can make tons of weenies but it's hard to find something to do solidly with them.
Boros has also taken a small hit from the change of the damage redirection to planeswlakers rule.
One thing I do not agree is that Boros is not solid in the battlecruiser approach and I actually think is a good way for boros to overcome some of its limitations. Dropping threats aftee threat instead of spending your time building up rocks to make Boros be what is not is usually a solid approach. There are three opponents and a limited number of answers, so spending them in your janky Taurean Mauler has to be thought twice. As it has been said, Boros is good at killing one player and that's something to reckon.
I think the design will eventually get there, but they have been too coy. Even for equipment synergy the commanders are a bit lacking.
Instead of "X/X doublestrike vigilant blah blah hope you like being out of cards"
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
And of course you don't have to play aggro in Boros but there are nearly no viable Boros options for other strategies and if your commander doesn't encourage what you're doing (like eg stax or Ld) you can probably find a better one in other colours.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Tiana is much more interesting as an aura commander (and not voltron either). There's some cool synergies there.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!