Honestly I feel that culture has more issues with Boris trying to destroy all Rockies and Bullwinkles more than they do with him trying to destroy all lands.
No, those are foolish unbannings. Also: Association Fallacy, Either-Or-Fallacy, Non-Sequitur (Formal Fallacy).
I don't understand how it's association fallacy. Your premise for balance works with many cards on the commander banlist.
Emrakul its only banned in commander, specifically multiplayer commander. Apparently vintage, modern, and duel commander have no problem with it and keep it restricted (1-of). I even remember when it was in standard, both against it and with it.
Griselbrand its only banned in commander, specifically multiplayer commander. Apparently vintage, modern, and duel commander have no problem with it and keep it restricted (1-of). I even remember when it was in standard, both against it and with it.
Primeval Titan its only banned in commander, specifically multiplayer commander. Apparently vintage, modern, and duel commander have no problem with it and keep it restricted (1-of). I even remember when it was in standard, both against it and with it.
Yeah i replaced 93/94 magic with modern because of legality, but i don't think that such a format should matter really much regarding banlist discussions. I could also include legacy because all these cards are legal in legacy while the "fair" balance is banned.
If you want to make a more coherent argument than "it's not banned in vintage and duel" please do so.
And after unbanning and playing all the land destruction in the world, a boros deck still need to win. Yeah there are no more lands, now you "only" have to deal around 120 damage to the other three players before they recover (knowing that they can access UGB ramp and card draw).
Boros wincons are still weak because white weenie suck. I don't see how balance can change that.
Meanwhile other decks with strong wincons like Kaalia can exploit balance in a much better way.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
My biggest issue with boros is that it feels like a lot of the commanders are very focused on combat as what they do so you get slightly different variations of "combat matters" with boros. When new commanders come out I am most interested in ones that open up new lines of play and or play in a completely new and different way from the other commanders in the same color combinations. Boros just fails too often to feel new and unique. Some of the few unique effects that they do have often feel like they aren't efficient enough and or just cost too much mana.
Firesong and Sunspeaker / Tiana, Ship's Caretaker for example are some interesting and different functioning legends for boros but, with the lack of card advantage in boros the fact that they are 5 and 6 mana legends that seem potentially very commander centric to me means that they will be dealt with and hard to recast. I think those abilities are cool but I also think that boros can't in its own right play a battle of attrition without mass land destruction so these fair and cool strategies are overlooked because of overcosted commander centric commanders.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Looting specifically is quite bad without a graveyard subtheme
Well that's utter bull*****. Looting effects are for card quality, letting you smooth out your draws and getting to the things you need now, rather than what you might need later, if at all.
IKR? Same as scry, but now you won't get "bad" cards ever again.
The other bull***** I want to cover here is that Boros cannot into card advantage, card advantage isn't the same as card draw. If I give Basilisk Collar to my Inferno Titan and then swing, guess what? I just gained card advantage when I killed three of my opponent's creatures. You don't even have to be so obscure as that; Arc Lightning on three N/1s will give you +2 card advantage. Boardwipes are all about card advantage. (Of course, in multiplayer, card advantage against one player isn't the same as card advantage against multiple players.)
@DirkGently: Better than truth, it's pravda.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Looting specifically is quite bad without a graveyard subtheme
Well that's utter bull*****. Looting effects are for card quality, letting you smooth out your draws and getting to the things you need now, rather than what you might need later, if at all.
I don't know what you're getting at exactly. There are not many good looting spells (pretty much cathartic and faithless), and they are much worse than other draw spells. I would usually not play them except maaaybe faithless looting in a generic deck (just because its flashback mode makes it kinda closer to card neutral).
You're far better off with cantrips, straight up draw effects, or tutors, than looting effects in almost any deck that doesn't want to use the graveyard.
Have you got a list of good looting effects you would consider autoincludes in boros decks? I can't think of a single one except *MAAYBE* faithless looting and even that is a stretch. I can usually think of a better card to play in that slot so I always wind up cutting it in non-reanimator/graveyard decks.
They get pretty strong when you're looking to reanimate stuff or recast stuff from the yard or whatever. But that's it.
No, those are foolish unbannings. Also: Association Fallacy, Either-Or-Fallacy, Non-Sequitur (Formal Fallacy).
I don't understand how it's association fallacy. Your premise for balance works with many cards on the commander banlist.
Emrakul its only banned in commander, specifically multiplayer commander. Apparently vintage, modern, and duel commander have no problem with it and keep it restricted (1-of). I even remember when it was in standard, both against it and with it.
Griselbrand its only banned in commander, specifically multiplayer commander. Apparently vintage, modern, and duel commander have no problem with it and keep it restricted (1-of). I even remember when it was in standard, both against it and with it.
Primeval Titan its only banned in commander, specifically multiplayer commander. Apparently vintage, modern, and duel commander have no problem with it and keep it restricted (1-of). I even remember when it was in standard, both against it and with it.
Yeah i replaced 93/94 magic with modern because of legality, but i don't think that such a format should matter really much regarding banlist discussions. I could also include legacy because all these cards are legal in legacy while the "fair" balance is banned.
If you want to make a more coherent argument than "it's not banned in vintage and duel" please do so.
And after unbanning and playing all the land destruction in the world, a boros deck still need to win. Yeah there are no more lands, now you "only" have to deal around 120 damage to the other three players before they recover (knowing that they can access UGB ramp and card draw).
Boros wincons are still weak because white weenie suck. I don't see how balance can change that.
Meanwhile other decks with strong wincons like Kaalia can exploit balance in a much better way.
I believe what he's actually saying is Disagrees With Me Fallacy.
Seriously though, comparing Commander to formats like Vintage or 93/94 (really?) is itself a prime example of false equivalence. Should we all be playing Gorilla Shaman because it sees play in Vintage? Anyway, getting max value from Balance against a single opponent is backbreaking enough, but against 2-3 players? And for just two mana? Saying it should be unbanned is so ludicrous that I almost feel silly discussing it. Card. Is. Nuts.
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Great discussion guys! I’m very interested by your comments and thoughts on this. (And I will say, I stated my opinions stronger than They are for the sake of discussion, because it’s a thought I’ve had for a while and wanted input on).
On to the good stuff!
So I believe that wheel effects are certainly card advantage. If I have 2 cards, wheel, and am at 7, that’s drawn 7 cards. Even if I’m giving my opponents cards, that isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
As far as commanders go, I don’t think it’s right to argue that because Red/White commanders are combat-based, those commanders are bad. That was kind of my point - if MLD was more acceptable, I think you can slow the rest of the table enough to make combat more effective.
Also, Limited Resources is totally legit in a format that is so inundated with enchantment removal and mana rocks, as well as ramp spells! Ramp spells would still put lands onto the battlefield, mana rocks would still work, and ALL of the hate from the rest of the table would be pointed at Limited Resources. And honestly, 5 lands apiece is plenty to deal with an enchantment.
I say that it partly is a culture problem. I have a low to the ground Iroas deck that runs a lot of hate bears and tries to lock in advantage with mld. I played it online Sunday, and popped a Ravages of War when I had a dude with an equipped sword of the animist out (cleary not just randomly firing it off) and when the Rashimi player was about to start going off (losing his lands stopped him). This guy was running your standard Rashimi bad guy combo deck looping seasons past and tutors with a wall of counters for backup. He whined like a child about mld as if sitting behind a wall of counters and a busted commander to combo off is somehow better. When I finally had him for lethal he decided to time out like a *****.
Look, I run mld in a few decks where it's good. I don't cast it willy nilly. I use it to lock in a winning gamestate, or at least one where I am quite likely to win, typically when I'm going to be able to quickly rebuild my Mana or still have a Mana base after it hits. This particular game went another 7 turns because I had to fire it off a bit early to prevent him from going off before I had a board that could kill him quickly, and then he got lucky and drew into a few lands that let him answer a few threats and drag it out.
The thing is, there were two other players, a group hug guy and another guy. Group hug guy gg'd and quit right away, the other guy waited a few turns hoping to draw more land before gg'ing. In my experience online, it's the entitled netdeckers that throw a fit because they got beat by a strategy they weren't expecting, while the players running more casual decks just treat it like you comboed. I told the crybaby that mld is the only way for an aggro Boros decks to keep up by making the game play on it's terms, and he replied "that's why nobody plays Boros in edh". It's an acknowledgement that this pov kneecaps the color combination by denying it one of it's most powerful tools.
I'm not saying you shouldn't me mad when someone just pops a geddon randomly and ruins the game, or just sticks every mld card ever printed in a deck and thinks it will win. Misplayed mld is bad. So are misplayed wrath's, or idiots who think sticking 30 counterspells in a deck will help them win without bothering to figure out what they should actually counter. Neither is MLD isn't going to redeem Boros and make it the hot new color combo, there are more issues it needs to deal with ranging from being bad at ramp and draw and having no dominant commanders. But greater acceptance of well played mld would make the color combo more viable, and specifically open up more aggressive strategies that can take advantage of keeping land counts low. It could also open up an artifact based archetype that relies on rocks and crucible to further break symmetry. Mostly, it's just irrational to hate on mld while accepting insta win combos, counterspell walls, and other such things.
Sorry, I don’t know how to combine this response with my last one so just double posting - this is exactly my point.
I am NOT arguing that Boros is the best color combo around. In fact, I would agree that it is probably the worst color combo. But what I think isn’t right is that we as a community hate on the MLD that, as he said, keeps the game running at the level of the Boros deck, and then try to make it out as so far inferior that it shouldn’t be played. If we accept every other strategy, we should accept MLD before we throw Boros into the trash.
For me as a 75%er 7 years into the format it all comes down to availability of strong, possibly interesting or at least viable commanders and that's where WR hits rock bottom.
Over the years we've gotten far and plenty of draw and ramp options that don't straight up suck. They might not be as sleek or mana efficient, but we got em. Given those and a lot of great removal, board wipes and protection WB wouldn't have to suck - if only it had the commander options to go with. Look at R! A color less, several blind spots, but the past few years gave us Neheb, the Eternal, Grenzo, Havoc Raiser, Etali, Primal Storm, Valduk, Keeper of the Flame and Hazoret the Fervent. None of which are (supposed to be) Top Tier options, yet they are unique and most importantly fun.
Depala, Pilot Exemplar - Vehicles, Dwarfs, card advantage. Looks like a lot of fun. Viable #1
Iroas, God of Victory - Great supporting commander that works very well with instant speed R board wipes. A little generic though. Viable #2
Akiri, Line-Slinger - I actually like her as a Voltron/Artifact-Token commander. Viable #3
Tiana, Ship's Caretaker - She's actually quite neat. Why did she have to be CMC 5 though? Viable #4
Aurelia, the Warleader - Decent finisher, requires too much setup for my taste. Viable #5
Razia, Boros Archangel - So they made an aweful WR legend with "Boros" in her name that embodies everything that's wrong with the commander options in said colors? Oh, the irony.
Btw W has the same problem, there are just too few interesting things to do. Equipments and Auras, Hatebears and several variants of Aggro. Underwhelming. As someone who enjoys having a mono deck of each color i am very happy Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle exists...
Even if MLD was accepted as a strategy, Boros wouldn’t be the color combination for it.
Gruul and Selesnya have mana dorks, and Captain Sisay can pull off a one sided Armageddon with Elesh Norn/Linvala + Nature’s Revolt/Kamahl, in addition to Armageddon.
Rakdos and Orzhov have the card draw and tutors to find MLD. Izzit and Azorius have that plus counter magic to protect the MLD.
Additionally, having 2 MLD spells in hand is bad for an aggro deck with limited card draw. If you want to play aggro Edgar Markov and Krenko badly outclass Boros. Using Avacyn as your commander and then playing Armageddon would be a better strategy.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I would think that most playgroups would rather not have to deal with Mass-LD in exchange for Boros being underrepresented in their games. As someone who played Armageddon deck, Ponza, Trinty Green, Angry Hermit, RDW, Wildfire, Stax, etc. whenever such a mana-denial deck was viable in Standard, I can appreciate land destruction and mana denial strategies more than most people. Although they are totally fair game in competitive metas, I think that the more relaxed atmosphere of a "typical" EDH playgroup makes that class of cards more than a little off-putting. I think that the better way to handle the card draw/ramp issues with Boros is to look to artifact options for both (as well as the aforementioned Wheel effects and a few outlier cards like Neheb, the Eternal).
I say this with some level of experience on the subject as my playgroup did a week of "gloves off" deckbuilding some time ago where Mass-LD and LD in general were no longer off-limits (and in fact, were actively encouraged). It produced some fairly predictable results; A) Everyone packed LD in some fashion in order to "keep up with the Jones'" so to speak, B) everyone prepared for mass-LD by running more artifact and/or creature sources and more lands in general, C) mana curves dropped significantly with most decks running minimal 5 and 6-drops and no X-spells or 7+ drops, and D) strategies were narrowed significantly to just those that could operate on 4-5 lands or less. It also produced some fairly unintended (although not entirely unpredictable) consequences; A) People held back lands anticipating a 'Geddon effect which slowed the game significantly, B) Mid-Range/Value decks and Aggro couldn't really exist and Board Control or Draw-Go control were the decks to beat, C) 3-color decks are totally asking for trouble and everyone gravitated towards two-color or mono-colored decks to avoid color screw, D) You would think that mono-blue or blue-X control would suck, but you basically open the door for cards like Mana Leak to be a hard counter, E) Ramp decks were still really good as they recovered from LD very well, F) you can surprisingly run 5 and 6 drops with some level of moderation as the singleton nature and high CMC of some of the Mass-LD options usually gave you some time that you didn't think you had, and G) games took forever as you didn't plan on having the resources to deploy synergy cards and trying to go Aggro failed miserably as players knew to hate out small creatures that could get in under an opponent's LD spells.
So in the end, I agree that allowing Mass-LD would make Boros better as a color combination in Commander, but I do not agree that allowing Mass-LD will make games any better, will reign in ramp, will even make RW the best Mass-LD color pair (that belongs to RG or GW in my opinion), nor will make up for the lack of quality Commanders available in RW.
Even if MLD was accepted as a strategy, Boros wouldn’t be the color combination for it.
Gruul and Selesnya have mana dorks, and Captain Sisay can pull off a one sided Armageddon with Elesh Norn/Linvala + Nature’s Revolt/Kamahl, in addition to Armageddon.
Rakdos and Orzhov have the card draw and tutors to find MLD. Izzit and Azorius have that plus counter magic to protect the MLD.
Additionally, having 2 MLD spells in hand is bad for an aggro deck with limited card draw. If you want to play aggro Edgar Markov and Krenko badly outclass Boros. Using Avacyn as your commander and then playing Armageddon would be a better strategy.
Boros certainly would not be the best combination for a deck that wants to force mld, but some mld added to a Boros aggro deck is one of the best ways to power it up, because it keeps the game in the "early stage" where your low CMC deck has an advantage. You aren't trying to just blow up all the lands you're trying to play aggro and then seal in your advantage with a mld spell. Basically, the conversation isn't about how to best build mld, but how mld could improve Boros as a color pair. Really though, it's more a case of mld improving aggro generally, it's just that as aggro is almost all that Boros does outside of a handful of commanders it's particularly relevant to Boros. I also have a Akiri and that simic merfolk partner aggro deck that wants to just dump an absurd amount of Mana rocks, and mld is there to do the same thing, slow everyone else down enough that I kill them before they can recover.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
And honestly, 5 lands apiece is plenty to deal with an enchantment.
It probably would be if limited resources actually did that. But since what it actually does, when played within the first few turns, is limit everyone to 2-3 lands, I think we can all agree that it should stay on the banlist forever.
well, unbanning of limited resources should be a self-fixing problem; if played turn 1, everyone else basically scoops and starts over, right? who's seriously gonna sit there for 50+ turns while getting beat down by a savannah lions? I think it's a lot of hubbub about nothing, but that's just me (and i get that it's not a popular opinion).
On the subject of boros, it's not a weak colour combination; it's more to do with people's deck building skills and in-game playing skills. People try to build red/white with an ethos that's more blue/green - so that's not going to work now, is it? You can always twist colour-combinations into doing weird things, but it's not going to be as effective as going with the flow. I know that i've been guilty of throwing in a sun titan in all my decks with white, because "value!"...but in all honesty, if it doesn't fit in with your game plan (and "value" really isn't part of any of my game plans), then what's the point?
Thing is, I have mono red and a mono white deck that have an absurdly high win-rate (norin the wary and teshar, ancestor's apostle; but those decks require a very specific game plan during mulligans, and a near-perfect playing out of said plan. They aren't decks that i can just give to someone and expect them to have nearly the same amount of success i have. Other colours (specifically green) generally provide a pretty linear and self-playing game that i could just lend them out to other players and expect them to do ok.
I think when most people think boros, they think RW beatdown/weenie/sligh. That's not really the most effective way forwards in a multiplayer format. I would suggest builds like RW prison (with some card advantage engines like land tax/scroll rack) or something along the lines of combo (maybe helm of obedience/rest in peace, or confusion in the ranks/krenko, mob boss).
So the short of the long of it; Boros is weak because:
1. People misdiagnose what the colours should be about during deck construction (i.e. aggro isn't as viable; prison is much more viable)
2. People tend to misplay boros decks (i.e. think they're the beatdown when they're not/can't see lines of play), and therefore think that boros is innately weaker than other colours that allow for 'autopilot' mode.
You're saying it's a card that, without any support or build around, ruins the game on turn 1 and you think it should be unbanned? O...K...
I hate these arguments that "Boros is fine, you just need to play it better! Look how good I'm doing with my stax deck!" or whatever. That same strategy could be much more effectively used in a different color combination with better commander options and better support. Most commander decks at your LGS are nowhere near the power cap of cEDH so yes, of course it's possible, if you pull out some stops (usually either by playing cards that the other players choose not to use for social reasons, by having a larger card pool, or having better deck building skill), to build a deck of any color combination and still have the same level of power as decks of other colors. But if you control for the variables of social contract, budget, and skill - boros is coming out on bottom all day every day.
I've also won plenty of games with W, R, and boros, because I've got a huge card pool, leet skills, and no morals. It's called anecdotal evidence and it's irrelevant.
You're saying it's a card that, without any support or build around, ruins the game on turn 1 and you think it should be unbanned? O...K...
I hate these arguments that "Boros is fine, you just need to play it better! Look how good I'm doing with my stax deck!" or whatever. That same strategy could be much more effectively used in a different color combination with better commander options and better support. Most commander decks at your LGS are nowhere near the power cap of cEDH so yes, of course it's possible, if you pull out some stops (usually either by playing cards that the other players choose not to use for social reasons, by having a larger card pool, or having better deck building skill), to build a deck of any color combination and still have the same level of power as decks of other colors. But if you control for the variables of social contract, budget, and skill - boros is coming out on bottom all day every day.
I've also won plenty of games with W, R, and boros, because I've got a huge card pool, leet skills, and no morals. It's called anecdotal evidence and it's irrelevant.
The whole thing about EDH is that it IS built upon anecdotal evidence. the 'spirit of EDH' is what individual groups make it out to be, though there is a very loose and overarching 'ideal' that many of us adhere to (on some level). I don't feel like limited resources skews the game any more than fast mana or fast combo kills in EDH, but I'm going to leave the limited resources discussion (hope that's fine), as i feel like it's going to derail the discussion about boros.
My argument that many people are misplaying/misbuilding boros isn't that other colours can do the same as well/better, it's that players expect boros to be able to do something it inherently should have a much tougher time with, and that players have a tendency to not build decks with a focus of the deck/strategy in mind. What i mean is that people build the colour combination for whatever reason, then dilute its strategy with 'value' cards that don't help the cause of the deck (and thereby weakening it, and subsequently makes the deck harder to pilot/less consistent). I don't think its all that necessary to sink 200+ dollars into a deck to make it successful either. I certainly don't run LED when a chromatic sphere would work.
It could just be that I enjoy playing games of magic where my deck doesn't pilot itself and that I actively need to work out lines of play to win. It could be that I have a tendency to also enjoy the puzzle of building lean, mean decks with as little fluff as possible. This is also coming from a guy who likes trying to worm his way out of a mangara-karakassmokestack lock.
At the end of the day though, I think I get what you mean, and i agree with the underlying principles; we shouldn't be happy with where we are simply because some of us are able to find success where others haven't. We shouldn't just arbitrarily decide that some colours/archetypes require a lot more investment from players to achieve the same level of success/consistency that others do. And we certainly should move away from an elitist perspective in terms of 'if i can, you must be an idiot'. I get that.
I just don't understand this gripe that RW is somehow inherently weaker than the other colour combinations.
I've also won plenty of games with W, R, and boros, because I've got a huge card pool, leet skills, and no morals. It's called anecdotal evidence and it's irrelevant.
lol! Truth.
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Firstly, I do think R and W individually have better success and better options that RW together. Obviously mono-color has more options for commanders, and R has lots of really great ones doing many different things - krenko, zirilan, godo, purphoros, and more, all reasonably competitive in a normal LGS meta without needing tons of money/skill/immorality. White is much weaker but still has a lot of variety and has some reasonable options (lin sivvi, sram, nahiri, jazal), even if they're pretty easily the worst mono-color imo. RW together, though, has a much more limited pool of commanders. Just going down the list -
adriana: weenies attacking.
agrus: weenies attacking.
Akiri: artifacts...but just to power up an attacker.
anax and cymede: weenies and attacking.
anya: medium-powered flyer for attacking.
aurelia 1 and 2: attacking.
Basandra: interesting design that is unfortunately very underpowered.
Brion: face damage.
Depala: actually pretty cool but kind of limited in scope with so few vehicles and dwarves, let alone good vehicles and dwaves.
FS & SS: also pretty cool design, but chronically overcosted to make very powerful.
Gisela: mostly attacking.
iroas: attacking.
jor: attacking.
kalemne: attacking.
munda: allies but just...like...really bad.
razia: combat, kind of, I guess, maybe not necessarily but also crazy overcosted.
tajic 1&2: attacking.
tiana: chronically underpowered.
So that's where a lot of the problem comes from. Can you make a deck around, say, Tajic that's just a stax deck with the commander not playing a vital role? Yeah, sure, I can imagine that being decent, but most people want to build around the commander to some extent. So we mostly get attacking focus, weenie focus, voltron focus...things that do not work well in even a medium-powered commander group without a lot of money/skill/immorality. And yes I'm going to keep using immorality as a euphemism for people who play MLD. Just try to stop me.
I think the other major issue is that RW lacks strong wincons. A lot of the best mono-red decks use their commanders as an integral part of their wincon. I didn't even really plan this part when writing this and just listed the best mono-red commanders off the top of my head, but look at them: all 4 are incredibly integral to the main wincon of the deck. While boros can run them in the 99 they're much more disruptable to removal and, with the lack of tutors, much less reliable. And without a lot of those options to rely on, it's very hard to have an explosive wincon of the type that can overcome the archenemy situation that most games become during a protracted attempt to win, which is what's usually necessary for boros.
I don't think the ramp complaints are reasonable. Mono-black has better doublers and green has land-ramp, but otherwise the other 3 colors are on the same page, and black only really gets the best doubling when alone. Draw is a little more reasonable to complain about, but there are still a lot of fine colorless draw, and red especially is getting more viable draw all the time. Tutors I think aren't getting talked enough about - to create a linear deck of the kind that, like it or not, tends to win most frequently, having reliability is critical, and RW really lacks in this department compared to the other colors. All RW can reliably tutor is equipment, which is itself relatively underpowered in commander.
If you want non-anecdotal evidence, RW commanders rank as the least played in EDHrec by a fair bit, and there are no RW commanders in the first 3 tiers of the cEDH list on tappedout.
minor nitpicks:
-who replaces LED with chromatic sphere? Like what is this deck doing that it's a reasonable replacement?
-limited resources is a standalone card. It doesn't require any buildaround to ruin the game. That alone makes it completely different from any combo.
-wtf is a mangara karakas smokestack lock? Who is allowing karakas in EDH? What's the relationship of smokestack to the other 2? Just...more?
Boros certainly would not be the best combination for a deck that wants to force mld, but some mld added to a Boros aggro deck is one of the best ways to power it up, because it keeps the game in the "early stage" where your low CMC deck has an advantage. You aren't trying to just blow up all the lands you're trying to play aggro and then seal in your advantage with a mld spell. Basically, the conversation isn't about how to best build mld, but how mld could improve Boros as a color pair. Really though, it's more a case of mld improving aggro generally
It's not like destroying all lands will improve white weenies. Boros is good at taking away 20 life, but it sucks at taking away 80-120.
Slowing the game can help but that wincon will still be too inefficient and between mana rocks, mana dorks and wrath your opponents will be able to foil your plan.
It's just a matter of scaling. The best red card is lightning bolt and it's amazing in 1v1 20 life, it's the most used card in modern. But in multiplayer 40 life, it's way worse. This pretty sums up the problem with boros and RW.
I think they should print something like legendary RWsoulfire grand master, that would greatly help.
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
You can literally use the grab bag method and find a million legendary builds that would be pretty strong in EDH using boros abilities. It's a bummer that Wizards doesn't seem to get what makes a good commander so often.
For me as a 75%er 7 years into the format it all comes down to availability of strong, possibly interesting or at least viable commanders and that's where WR hits rock bottom.
Over the years we've gotten far and plenty of draw and ramp options that don't straight up suck. They might not be as sleek or mana efficient, but we got em. Given those and a lot of great removal, board wipes and protection WB wouldn't have to suck - if only it had the commander options to go with. Look at R! A color less, several blind spots, but the past few years gave us Neheb, the Eternal, Grenzo, Havoc Raiser, Etali, Primal Storm, Valduk, Keeper of the Flame and Hazoret the Fervent. None of which are (supposed to be) Top Tier options, yet they are unique and most importantly fun.
Depala, Pilot Exemplar - Vehicles, Dwarfs, card advantage. Looks like a lot of fun. Viable #1
Iroas, God of Victory - Great supporting commander that works very well with instant speed R board wipes. A little generic though. Viable #2
Akiri, Line-Slinger - I actually like her as a Voltron/Artifact-Token commander. Viable #3
Tiana, Ship's Caretaker - She's actually quite neat. Why did she have to be CMC 5 though? Viable #4
Aurelia, the Warleader - Decent finisher, requires too much setup for my taste. Viable #5
Razia, Boros Archangel - So they made an aweful WR legend with "Boros" in her name that embodies everything that's wrong with the commander options in said colors? Oh, the irony.
Btw W has the same problem, there are just too few interesting things to do. Equipments and Auras, Hatebears and several variants of Aggro. Underwhelming. As someone who enjoys having a mono deck of each color i am very happy Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle exists...
One big problem is the ones that cost seven mana or more. Think of it this way: Assuming you can stop the initial wave of combo decks, then, rounded down, your commander has (10-M)/2 "lives", where M is the converted mana cost, unless you're playing an awful lot of accel, more than nongreen decks typically play, or possibly you're going full control, which isn't really Boros's bag either. (Obvious exceptions, such as Licia, Sanguine Tribune and Karador, Ghost Chieftain, are obvious.)
The anthems would be nicer if, e.g., Jor Kadeen had "4: Create a 1/1 colorless Myr artifact creature token." And not just Jor Kadeen, but Agrus Kos (making red/white Soldier tokens à la Creakwood Liege) and Anax and Cymede as well. They're nice in decks with other colors (Rith, the Awakener, Saskia the Unyielding, Breya, Etherium Shaper) but not so nice in their own. (Actually, come to think of it, Gisela has this issue as well.)
Then you have Kalemne. In the immortal words of James Rolfe, what were they thinking? She's Voltron, but wants other "go-tall" creatures. Hope you're running your medallions, monuments, and Semblance Anvil. She's Boros, but her abilities seem more synergistic with Simic Fatties/Ramp. (I would consider black, but you have to actually cast your creature spells. You can't even drop Sneak Attack.)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
You're saying it's a card that, without any support or build around, ruins the game on turn 1 and you think it should be unbanned? O...K...
I hate these arguments that "Boros is fine, you just need to play it better! Look how good I'm doing with my stax deck!" or whatever. That same strategy could be much more effectively used in a different color combination with better commander options and better support. Most commander decks at your LGS are nowhere near the power cap of cEDH so yes, of course it's possible, if you pull out some stops (usually either by playing cards that the other players choose not to use for social reasons, by having a larger card pool, or having better deck building skill), to build a deck of any color combination and still have the same level of power as decks of other colors. But if you control for the variables of social contract, budget, and skill - boros is coming out on bottom all day every day.
I've also won plenty of games with W, R, and boros, because I've got a huge card pool, leet skills, and no morals. It's called anecdotal evidence and it's irrelevant.
How is this even relevant? The arguments aren't "get good scrub", the arguments are "if the community would be more accepting of mld, then the worst color combo would be better." Nobody is saying it would be great. It probably isn't enough to get it out of being the worst. But I think it would help close the gap a bit. The discussion is about whether we as a community should alter one of the variables, the social contract, to be more accepting of mld because it would help the weakest color combo get better, and then reasons why mld isn't really any worse than putting up counter walls or going for a fast combo.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Boros certainly would not be the best combination for a deck that wants to force mld, but some mld added to a Boros aggro deck is one of the best ways to power it up, because it keeps the game in the "early stage" where your low CMC deck has an advantage. You aren't trying to just blow up all the lands you're trying to play aggro and then seal in your advantage with a mld spell. Basically, the conversation isn't about how to best build mld, but how mld could improve Boros as a color pair. Really though, it's more a case of mld improving aggro generally
It's not like destroying all lands will improve white weenies. Boros is good at taking away 20 life, but it sucks at taking away 80-120.
Slowing the game can help but that wincon will still be too inefficient and between mana rocks, mana dorks and wrath your opponents will be able to foil your plan.
It's just a matter of scaling. The best red card is lightning bolt and it's amazing in 1v1 20 life, it's the most used card in modern. But in multiplayer 40 life, it's way worse. This pretty sums up the problem with boros and RW.
I think they should print something like legendary RWsoulfire grand master, that would greatly help.
White Weenie sucks, but in edh you aren't playing straight up weenie, your playing stuff in the 2-4 drop range. Weenie for the format, but more midrange elsewhere. Nonetheless, its still going to require knowing who to target first, who you probably can't beat if the game goes on, etc. Generally aggro is the hardest archetype to play because it starts off at a disadvantage.
Its not going to do anything in cEDH, and Boros doesn't need help for low powered metas, but in the sort of midrange, 75% metas where you start to see combos and harder control but its not all tuned for turn 4 wins, being able to wipe lands and keep the game in its early stages is enough to give boros aggro a fighting chance.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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I don't understand how it's association fallacy. Your premise for balance works with many cards on the commander banlist.
Emrakul its only banned in commander, specifically multiplayer commander. Apparently vintage, modern, and duel commander have no problem with it and keep it restricted (1-of). I even remember when it was in standard, both against it and with it.
Griselbrand its only banned in commander, specifically multiplayer commander. Apparently vintage, modern, and duel commander have no problem with it and keep it restricted (1-of). I even remember when it was in standard, both against it and with it.
Primeval Titan its only banned in commander, specifically multiplayer commander. Apparently vintage, modern, and duel commander have no problem with it and keep it restricted (1-of). I even remember when it was in standard, both against it and with it.
Yeah i replaced 93/94 magic with modern because of legality, but i don't think that such a format should matter really much regarding banlist discussions. I could also include legacy because all these cards are legal in legacy while the "fair" balance is banned.
If you want to make a more coherent argument than "it's not banned in vintage and duel" please do so.
And after unbanning and playing all the land destruction in the world, a boros deck still need to win. Yeah there are no more lands, now you "only" have to deal around 120 damage to the other three players before they recover (knowing that they can access UGB ramp and card draw).
Boros wincons are still weak because white weenie suck. I don't see how balance can change that.
Meanwhile other decks with strong wincons like Kaalia can exploit balance in a much better way.
On a side note, Boros is crap. The two weakest colours combined to form the epitome of weak.
Firesong and Sunspeaker / Tiana, Ship's Caretaker for example are some interesting and different functioning legends for boros but, with the lack of card advantage in boros the fact that they are 5 and 6 mana legends that seem potentially very commander centric to me means that they will be dealt with and hard to recast. I think those abilities are cool but I also think that boros can't in its own right play a battle of attrition without mass land destruction so these fair and cool strategies are overlooked because of overcosted commander centric commanders.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
IKR? Same as scry, but now you won't get "bad" cards ever again.
The other bull***** I want to cover here is that Boros cannot into card advantage, card advantage isn't the same as card draw. If I give Basilisk Collar to my Inferno Titan and then swing, guess what? I just gained card advantage when I killed three of my opponent's creatures. You don't even have to be so obscure as that; Arc Lightning on three N/1s will give you +2 card advantage. Boardwipes are all about card advantage. (Of course, in multiplayer, card advantage against one player isn't the same as card advantage against multiple players.)
@DirkGently: Better than truth, it's pravda.
On phasing:
I don't know what you're getting at exactly. There are not many good looting spells (pretty much cathartic and faithless), and they are much worse than other draw spells. I would usually not play them except maaaybe faithless looting in a generic deck (just because its flashback mode makes it kinda closer to card neutral).
You're far better off with cantrips, straight up draw effects, or tutors, than looting effects in almost any deck that doesn't want to use the graveyard.
Have you got a list of good looting effects you would consider autoincludes in boros decks? I can't think of a single one except *MAAYBE* faithless looting and even that is a stretch. I can usually think of a better card to play in that slot so I always wind up cutting it in non-reanimator/graveyard decks.
They get pretty strong when you're looking to reanimate stuff or recast stuff from the yard or whatever. But that's it.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I believe what he's actually saying is Disagrees With Me Fallacy.
Seriously though, comparing Commander to formats like Vintage or 93/94 (really?) is itself a prime example of false equivalence. Should we all be playing Gorilla Shaman because it sees play in Vintage? Anyway, getting max value from Balance against a single opponent is backbreaking enough, but against 2-3 players? And for just two mana? Saying it should be unbanned is so ludicrous that I almost feel silly discussing it. Card. Is. Nuts.
My 720 Peasant Cube
On to the good stuff!
So I believe that wheel effects are certainly card advantage. If I have 2 cards, wheel, and am at 7, that’s drawn 7 cards. Even if I’m giving my opponents cards, that isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
As far as commanders go, I don’t think it’s right to argue that because Red/White commanders are combat-based, those commanders are bad. That was kind of my point - if MLD was more acceptable, I think you can slow the rest of the table enough to make combat more effective.
Also, Limited Resources is totally legit in a format that is so inundated with enchantment removal and mana rocks, as well as ramp spells! Ramp spells would still put lands onto the battlefield, mana rocks would still work, and ALL of the hate from the rest of the table would be pointed at Limited Resources. And honestly, 5 lands apiece is plenty to deal with an enchantment.
Sorry, I don’t know how to combine this response with my last one so just double posting - this is exactly my point.
I am NOT arguing that Boros is the best color combo around. In fact, I would agree that it is probably the worst color combo. But what I think isn’t right is that we as a community hate on the MLD that, as he said, keeps the game running at the level of the Boros deck, and then try to make it out as so far inferior that it shouldn’t be played. If we accept every other strategy, we should accept MLD before we throw Boros into the trash.
Over the years we've gotten far and plenty of draw and ramp options that don't straight up suck. They might not be as sleek or mana efficient, but we got em. Given those and a lot of great removal, board wipes and protection WB wouldn't have to suck - if only it had the commander options to go with. Look at R! A color less, several blind spots, but the past few years gave us Neheb, the Eternal, Grenzo, Havoc Raiser, Etali, Primal Storm, Valduk, Keeper of the Flame and Hazoret the Fervent. None of which are (supposed to be) Top Tier options, yet they are unique and most importantly fun.
Btw W has the same problem, there are just too few interesting things to do. Equipments and Auras, Hatebears and several variants of Aggro. Underwhelming. As someone who enjoys having a mono deck of each color i am very happy Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle exists...
Gruul and Selesnya have mana dorks, and Captain Sisay can pull off a one sided Armageddon with Elesh Norn/Linvala + Nature’s Revolt/Kamahl, in addition to Armageddon.
Rakdos and Orzhov have the card draw and tutors to find MLD. Izzit and Azorius have that plus counter magic to protect the MLD.
Additionally, having 2 MLD spells in hand is bad for an aggro deck with limited card draw. If you want to play aggro Edgar Markov and Krenko badly outclass Boros. Using Avacyn as your commander and then playing Armageddon would be a better strategy.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I say this with some level of experience on the subject as my playgroup did a week of "gloves off" deckbuilding some time ago where Mass-LD and LD in general were no longer off-limits (and in fact, were actively encouraged). It produced some fairly predictable results; A) Everyone packed LD in some fashion in order to "keep up with the Jones'" so to speak, B) everyone prepared for mass-LD by running more artifact and/or creature sources and more lands in general, C) mana curves dropped significantly with most decks running minimal 5 and 6-drops and no X-spells or 7+ drops, and D) strategies were narrowed significantly to just those that could operate on 4-5 lands or less. It also produced some fairly unintended (although not entirely unpredictable) consequences; A) People held back lands anticipating a 'Geddon effect which slowed the game significantly, B) Mid-Range/Value decks and Aggro couldn't really exist and Board Control or Draw-Go control were the decks to beat, C) 3-color decks are totally asking for trouble and everyone gravitated towards two-color or mono-colored decks to avoid color screw, D) You would think that mono-blue or blue-X control would suck, but you basically open the door for cards like Mana Leak to be a hard counter, E) Ramp decks were still really good as they recovered from LD very well, F) you can surprisingly run 5 and 6 drops with some level of moderation as the singleton nature and high CMC of some of the Mass-LD options usually gave you some time that you didn't think you had, and G) games took forever as you didn't plan on having the resources to deploy synergy cards and trying to go Aggro failed miserably as players knew to hate out small creatures that could get in under an opponent's LD spells.
Interestingly enough, we all came at the LD deck from different angles. One player played RW all Mass-LD (Armageddon, Ravages of War, Decree of Annihilation, Ruination, Boom//Bust, Catastrophe, Jokulhaups) along with a ton of Wrath effects, one player went RG Ramp into LD that took advantage of the ramp advantage (Tectonic Break, Wildfire, Burning of Xinye, Destructive Force, Bend or Break, Devastating Dreams), while another player went for ramp spells plus Goblin Sharpshooter/Masticore effects + Kamahl, Fist of Krosa/Living Plane effects, while another player played Mono-U artifact mana, counterspells, and Strip Mine effects +Crucible of Worlds. The RW deck never won. This was taking into effect that we still had a soft-ban on Stasis/Winter Orb effects, Stax effects, and Land Locks like Mycosynth Lattice+March of the Machines or Enchanted Evening+Opalescence, so potentially you can have all sorts of ways to give players mana issues. Although somewhat fun for a game or two as we played the MTG equivalent of screw your neighbor, once you go down that rabbit hole it seemingly dominates how decks are built and how games are played to the point where it felt that the whole reason why we played EDH was lost (specifically, we wanted to play with cards that had homes in no other format and/or in combination with other cards that had never existed in the same format together).
So in the end, I agree that allowing Mass-LD would make Boros better as a color combination in Commander, but I do not agree that allowing Mass-LD will make games any better, will reign in ramp, will even make RW the best Mass-LD color pair (that belongs to RG or GW in my opinion), nor will make up for the lack of quality Commanders available in RW.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Boros certainly would not be the best combination for a deck that wants to force mld, but some mld added to a Boros aggro deck is one of the best ways to power it up, because it keeps the game in the "early stage" where your low CMC deck has an advantage. You aren't trying to just blow up all the lands you're trying to play aggro and then seal in your advantage with a mld spell. Basically, the conversation isn't about how to best build mld, but how mld could improve Boros as a color pair. Really though, it's more a case of mld improving aggro generally, it's just that as aggro is almost all that Boros does outside of a handful of commanders it's particularly relevant to Boros. I also have a Akiri and that simic merfolk partner aggro deck that wants to just dump an absurd amount of Mana rocks, and mld is there to do the same thing, slow everyone else down enough that I kill them before they can recover.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
On the subject of boros, it's not a weak colour combination; it's more to do with people's deck building skills and in-game playing skills. People try to build red/white with an ethos that's more blue/green - so that's not going to work now, is it? You can always twist colour-combinations into doing weird things, but it's not going to be as effective as going with the flow. I know that i've been guilty of throwing in a sun titan in all my decks with white, because "value!"...but in all honesty, if it doesn't fit in with your game plan (and "value" really isn't part of any of my game plans), then what's the point?
Thing is, I have mono red and a mono white deck that have an absurdly high win-rate (norin the wary and teshar, ancestor's apostle; but those decks require a very specific game plan during mulligans, and a near-perfect playing out of said plan. They aren't decks that i can just give to someone and expect them to have nearly the same amount of success i have. Other colours (specifically green) generally provide a pretty linear and self-playing game that i could just lend them out to other players and expect them to do ok.
I think when most people think boros, they think RW beatdown/weenie/sligh. That's not really the most effective way forwards in a multiplayer format. I would suggest builds like RW prison (with some card advantage engines like land tax/scroll rack) or something along the lines of combo (maybe helm of obedience/rest in peace, or confusion in the ranks/krenko, mob boss).
So the short of the long of it; Boros is weak because:
1. People misdiagnose what the colours should be about during deck construction (i.e. aggro isn't as viable; prison is much more viable)
2. People tend to misplay boros decks (i.e. think they're the beatdown when they're not/can't see lines of play), and therefore think that boros is innately weaker than other colours that allow for 'autopilot' mode.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
I hate these arguments that "Boros is fine, you just need to play it better! Look how good I'm doing with my stax deck!" or whatever. That same strategy could be much more effectively used in a different color combination with better commander options and better support. Most commander decks at your LGS are nowhere near the power cap of cEDH so yes, of course it's possible, if you pull out some stops (usually either by playing cards that the other players choose not to use for social reasons, by having a larger card pool, or having better deck building skill), to build a deck of any color combination and still have the same level of power as decks of other colors. But if you control for the variables of social contract, budget, and skill - boros is coming out on bottom all day every day.
I've also won plenty of games with W, R, and boros, because I've got a huge card pool, leet skills, and no morals. It's called anecdotal evidence and it's irrelevant.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
The whole thing about EDH is that it IS built upon anecdotal evidence. the 'spirit of EDH' is what individual groups make it out to be, though there is a very loose and overarching 'ideal' that many of us adhere to (on some level). I don't feel like limited resources skews the game any more than fast mana or fast combo kills in EDH, but I'm going to leave the limited resources discussion (hope that's fine), as i feel like it's going to derail the discussion about boros.
My argument that many people are misplaying/misbuilding boros isn't that other colours can do the same as well/better, it's that players expect boros to be able to do something it inherently should have a much tougher time with, and that players have a tendency to not build decks with a focus of the deck/strategy in mind. What i mean is that people build the colour combination for whatever reason, then dilute its strategy with 'value' cards that don't help the cause of the deck (and thereby weakening it, and subsequently makes the deck harder to pilot/less consistent). I don't think its all that necessary to sink 200+ dollars into a deck to make it successful either. I certainly don't run LED when a chromatic sphere would work.
It could just be that I enjoy playing games of magic where my deck doesn't pilot itself and that I actively need to work out lines of play to win. It could be that I have a tendency to also enjoy the puzzle of building lean, mean decks with as little fluff as possible. This is also coming from a guy who likes trying to worm his way out of a mangara-karakas smokestack lock.
At the end of the day though, I think I get what you mean, and i agree with the underlying principles; we shouldn't be happy with where we are simply because some of us are able to find success where others haven't. We shouldn't just arbitrarily decide that some colours/archetypes require a lot more investment from players to achieve the same level of success/consistency that others do. And we certainly should move away from an elitist perspective in terms of 'if i can, you must be an idiot'. I get that.
I just don't understand this gripe that RW is somehow inherently weaker than the other colour combinations.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
lol! Truth.
My 720 Peasant Cube
adriana: weenies attacking.
agrus: weenies attacking.
Akiri: artifacts...but just to power up an attacker.
anax and cymede: weenies and attacking.
anya: medium-powered flyer for attacking.
aurelia 1 and 2: attacking.
Basandra: interesting design that is unfortunately very underpowered.
Brion: face damage.
Depala: actually pretty cool but kind of limited in scope with so few vehicles and dwarves, let alone good vehicles and dwaves.
FS & SS: also pretty cool design, but chronically overcosted to make very powerful.
Gisela: mostly attacking.
iroas: attacking.
jor: attacking.
kalemne: attacking.
munda: allies but just...like...really bad.
razia: combat, kind of, I guess, maybe not necessarily but also crazy overcosted.
tajic 1&2: attacking.
tiana: chronically underpowered.
So that's where a lot of the problem comes from. Can you make a deck around, say, Tajic that's just a stax deck with the commander not playing a vital role? Yeah, sure, I can imagine that being decent, but most people want to build around the commander to some extent. So we mostly get attacking focus, weenie focus, voltron focus...things that do not work well in even a medium-powered commander group without a lot of money/skill/immorality. And yes I'm going to keep using immorality as a euphemism for people who play MLD. Just try to stop me.
I think the other major issue is that RW lacks strong wincons. A lot of the best mono-red decks use their commanders as an integral part of their wincon. I didn't even really plan this part when writing this and just listed the best mono-red commanders off the top of my head, but look at them: all 4 are incredibly integral to the main wincon of the deck. While boros can run them in the 99 they're much more disruptable to removal and, with the lack of tutors, much less reliable. And without a lot of those options to rely on, it's very hard to have an explosive wincon of the type that can overcome the archenemy situation that most games become during a protracted attempt to win, which is what's usually necessary for boros.
I don't think the ramp complaints are reasonable. Mono-black has better doublers and green has land-ramp, but otherwise the other 3 colors are on the same page, and black only really gets the best doubling when alone. Draw is a little more reasonable to complain about, but there are still a lot of fine colorless draw, and red especially is getting more viable draw all the time. Tutors I think aren't getting talked enough about - to create a linear deck of the kind that, like it or not, tends to win most frequently, having reliability is critical, and RW really lacks in this department compared to the other colors. All RW can reliably tutor is equipment, which is itself relatively underpowered in commander.
If you want non-anecdotal evidence, RW commanders rank as the least played in EDHrec by a fair bit, and there are no RW commanders in the first 3 tiers of the cEDH list on tappedout.
minor nitpicks:
-who replaces LED with chromatic sphere? Like what is this deck doing that it's a reasonable replacement?
-limited resources is a standalone card. It doesn't require any buildaround to ruin the game. That alone makes it completely different from any combo.
-wtf is a mangara karakas smokestack lock? Who is allowing karakas in EDH? What's the relationship of smokestack to the other 2? Just...more?
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
It's not like destroying all lands will improve white weenies. Boros is good at taking away 20 life, but it sucks at taking away 80-120.
Slowing the game can help but that wincon will still be too inefficient and between mana rocks, mana dorks and wrath your opponents will be able to foil your plan.
It's just a matter of scaling. The best red card is lightning bolt and it's amazing in 1v1 20 life, it's the most used card in modern. But in multiplayer 40 life, it's way worse. This pretty sums up the problem with boros and RW.
I think they should print something like legendary RW soulfire grand master, that would greatly help.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Decent win con and stuff. It's really no different from The Great Aurora.
One big problem is the ones that cost seven mana or more. Think of it this way: Assuming you can stop the initial wave of combo decks, then, rounded down, your commander has (10-M)/2 "lives", where M is the converted mana cost, unless you're playing an awful lot of accel, more than nongreen decks typically play, or possibly you're going full control, which isn't really Boros's bag either. (Obvious exceptions, such as Licia, Sanguine Tribune and Karador, Ghost Chieftain, are obvious.)
The anthems would be nicer if, e.g., Jor Kadeen had "4: Create a 1/1 colorless Myr artifact creature token." And not just Jor Kadeen, but Agrus Kos (making red/white Soldier tokens à la Creakwood Liege) and Anax and Cymede as well. They're nice in decks with other colors (Rith, the Awakener, Saskia the Unyielding, Breya, Etherium Shaper) but not so nice in their own. (Actually, come to think of it, Gisela has this issue as well.)
Then you have Kalemne. In the immortal words of James Rolfe, what were they thinking? She's Voltron, but wants other "go-tall" creatures. Hope you're running your medallions, monuments, and Semblance Anvil. She's Boros, but her abilities seem more synergistic with Simic Fatties/Ramp. (I would consider black, but you have to actually cast your creature spells. You can't even drop Sneak Attack.)
On phasing:
How is this even relevant? The arguments aren't "get good scrub", the arguments are "if the community would be more accepting of mld, then the worst color combo would be better." Nobody is saying it would be great. It probably isn't enough to get it out of being the worst. But I think it would help close the gap a bit. The discussion is about whether we as a community should alter one of the variables, the social contract, to be more accepting of mld because it would help the weakest color combo get better, and then reasons why mld isn't really any worse than putting up counter walls or going for a fast combo.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
White Weenie sucks, but in edh you aren't playing straight up weenie, your playing stuff in the 2-4 drop range. Weenie for the format, but more midrange elsewhere. Nonetheless, its still going to require knowing who to target first, who you probably can't beat if the game goes on, etc. Generally aggro is the hardest archetype to play because it starts off at a disadvantage.
Its not going to do anything in cEDH, and Boros doesn't need help for low powered metas, but in the sort of midrange, 75% metas where you start to see combos and harder control but its not all tuned for turn 4 wins, being able to wipe lands and keep the game in its early stages is enough to give boros aggro a fighting chance.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!