Let's say you had a regular playgroup that was okay with MLD, with combo, with chaos... all the rotten things, but they just wanted games to play out with more variability....
So, you all decide to cut the best tutors.
Which tutors would you choose to house ban?
(I realize this is also going to end up being a list of the best tutors, but what can you do)
Most everyone would agree that Demonic Tutor is better than Sidisi, Undead Vizier... but it is a lot easier to recur Sidisi and tutor multiple times. So, with that in mind, please also consider what tutors are the most abusable.
Wouldn't the outright banning of all "search your deck for ANY card"-style of tutors be what you're looking for?
I mean enlightened tutor is good, but it can only search for a pretty specific type of card from your deck. banning only 1 specific tutor effect seems pretty weak when you're comparing cruel tutor, imperial seal, vampiric tutor and so on as redundancy.
By the way, i'd say that demonic consultation should be completely ok and not banned. Since you might end up decking yourself and/or exile 3/4 of your library.
Wouldn't the outright banning of all "search your deck for ANY card"-style of tutors be what you're looking for?
I mean enlightened tutor is good, but it can only search for a pretty specific type of card from your deck. banning only 1 specific tutor effect seems pretty weak when you're comparing cruel tutor, imperial seal, vampiric tutor and so on as redundancy.
By the way, i'd say that demonic consultation should be completely ok and not banned. Since you might end up decking yourself and/or exile 3/4 of your library.
Actually, applying a "Demonic Consultation" clause in-lieu of all search effects sounds like a plan a group could house-rule. Instead of naming a card, you name a card type (for general tutors like Demonic Tutor or multiple choice tutors like Enlightened Tutor) and filter until you hit the first card of that type, then shuffle the rest into the library (exiling as a overall rule would be too much I'd say).
There might need to be a sub-clause for ramp cards though (since they search), depending on how prevalent ramp is in the meta and how much people want to curb it. It can go anywhere to excluding ramp from filtering, changing it to filter by basic land type (instead of card type) so Rampant Growth isn't affected as much as fetchlands are, or the heavy-handed method of literally letting Rampant Growth hit the first random basic land via filtering.
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I don't think a ban works. Eventually you get to the best card you left off the list and people just find a way to abuse it.
I think you make a rule that changes the way tutors function. Something like if there was always a modified Aven Mindcensor in play.
Instead of searching your library, you search the top 4 cards (or more than 4 if you don't want to be too punitive). Also, with conditional tutors, you might want to make it so they reveal until they encounter the card type, so that they can't miss (although that does open the exploit of search for an artifact with only 1 artifact in the deck).
The added benefit of a house rule changing the function of tutors, as opposed to a house ban on tutors, is no ones deck is suddenly illegal. If a new player shows up, they can have the rule explained, and rather than needing to change their deck, it's still playable.
If you are going to get rid of powerful tutors, you need also to nix any card that lets you search for more than two lands.
The problem with this whole approach, though, is that while it may slow down combo, it won't stop overpowered stuff from happening. People can still win on the spot by playing Genesis Wave or Primal Surge in a properly-tuned deck and running lots of draw effects to get to those cards. Tutors on a stick which might not seem problematic can be very powerful when paired with recursion (Sun Titan, Alesha, Nim Deathmantle, etc.)
Of course, "crazy stuff happening" is part of what we should probably be striving for in EDH, so long as it isn't boring crazy stuff, like tutoring for an "I win" combo game after game. How cards like GWave and PSurge fit into that is an open question.
I don't think a ban works. Eventually you get to the best card you left off the list and people just find a way to abuse it.
I think you make a rule that changes the way tutors function. Something like if there was always a modified Aven Mindcensor in play.
Instead of searching your library, you search the top 4 cards (or more than 4 if you don't want to be too punitive). Also, with conditional tutors, you might want to make it so they reveal until they encounter the card type, so that they can't miss (although that does open the exploit of search for an artifact with only 1 artifact in the deck).
The added benefit of a house rule changing the function of tutors, as opposed to a house ban on tutors, is no ones deck is suddenly illegal. If a new player shows up, they can have the rule explained, and rather than needing to change their deck, it's still playable.
In this case, not really. Yeah, you default to the next best thing, but this eliminates early game consistency and mid game same turn combo piece search and deploy. Waiting until turn 4 to fire off diabolic is pretty mediocre (or turn 3 and 3 life for cruel). It also restricts tutoring to black, while making it a weaker effect overall.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Wouldn't the outright banning of all "search your deck for ANY card"-style of tutors be what you're looking for?
I mean enlightened tutor is good, but it can only search for a pretty specific type of card from your deck. banning only 1 specific tutor effect seems pretty weak when you're comparing cruel tutor, imperial seal, vampiric tutor and so on as redundancy.
I am okay with some amount of tutors, I guess... I am thinking that if you ban the best ones, people will tutor less. At a certain point, paying 4 or 5 mana to search up a card is not very efficient.
I don't think a ban works. Eventually you get to the best card you left off the list and people just find a way to abuse it.
I think you make a rule that changes the way tutors function. Something like if there was always a modified Aven Mindcensor in play.
Instead of searching your library, you search the top 4 cards (or more than 4 if you don't want to be too punitive). Also, with conditional tutors, you might want to make it so they reveal until they encounter the card type, so that they can't miss (although that does open the exploit of search for an artifact with only 1 artifact in the deck).
The added benefit of a house rule changing the function of tutors, as opposed to a house ban on tutors, is no ones deck is suddenly illegal. If a new player shows up, they can have the rule explained, and rather than needing to change their deck, it's still playable.
Changing how a tutor works sounds really interesting. If you reveal cards until you find one that fits the clause, I think you get some weird scenarios where someone's Birthing Pod still works exactly the same (because they only have one 7 drop maybe) or if you limit to the top X cards, the tutor does nothing.
I feel like the 1-2 mana tutors are the biggest offenders. I think the tempo loss from playing a 4/5 mana tutor is a pretty serious consideration.
I'd stop after the top 3. Hit Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, and Imperial Seal. The other unrestricted ones and anything that specifies a card type are not nearly as powerful. If you still want to cut things down after that, Mystical Tutor and Enlightened Tutor would be my next targets. Worldly Tutor is still strong, but I'd put it a step below the other two Mirage ones in large part because of the abundance of tutoring options in green. I wouldn't touch anything else unless you're trying to be really heavy handed with it because there's a pretty significant drop in power level after that. The next best are things like Grim Tutor and Eladamri's Call, which aren't on the same level. Where you want to draw the line varies heavily from group to group.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
I think EDH could probably be fine with a ban of the 1cmc mirage tutors and nothing else. Add a little variability, etc. But I really don't care. Most people are capable of using a little restraint.
i've seen these abused far more than the mirage ones. they also generally have that massive surprise factor that pushes them further toward ending things on the spot.
Wouldn't the outright banning of all "search your deck for ANY card"-style of tutors be what you're looking for?
Sometimes you only need just one. Which, by the way, is also why Sidisi isn't the same as D-Tutor.
This is why Demonic Consultation is banned in Legacy, restricted in Vintage, but Divining Witch is a frequent guest on "Worst Card In Magic" lists. Being able to reuse a card easily just doesn't matter if that card can just grab you a win condition (or is a win condition).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I think you should approach this from a guideline perspective instead of a rules perspective. Banning or crippling all search effects causes a lot of collateral damage, and the next best thing is an additional ban list that as people have pointes out, is a slidings scale as well.
I think you just need to adjust the social contract in your playgroup. The main problem for you seems to be seeing the same cards over and over again due to tutors. So then agree with your playgroup that you don’t use cards with that intention, and leave the interpretation to the players. The problem is not people’s decks running consistently (due to fetches or land search and such) but people’s decks consistently having the same cards in play.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
I think you should approach this from a guideline perspective instead of a rules perspective. Banning or crippling all search effects causes a lot of collateral damage, and the next best thing is an additional ban list that as people have pointes out, is a slidings scale as well.
Well one may may argue that banning the 2nd, 3rd and 4th copy of a card in a deck can cause collateral damage, as it would be having always access to a creature that can be repeatedly cast even if it gets killed or exiled.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Wouldn't the outright banning of all "search your deck for ANY card"-style of tutors be what you're looking for?
Sometimes you only need just one. Which, by the way, is also why Sidisi isn't the same as D-Tutor.
This is why Demonic Consultation is banned in Legacy, restricted in Vintage, but Divining Witch is a frequent guest on "Worst Card In Magic" lists. Being able to reuse a card easily just doesn't matter if that card can just grab you a win condition (or is a win condition).
that's true, but having run demonic consultation myself in EDH quite a bit, i can tell you that my target has a seemingly high chance of being in the top 6 cards of my library. It also exiles a huge chunk of the library, which can mean exiling useful wincons and so on. Also, it makes the rest of the table 'rest assured' that i'm losing a big chunk of my library.
Generally though, if people use tutors to get silver-bullet answers for a threat on the table, that's good. If people use tutors to fetch combo pieces, that's not so much fun anymore (even i get sick of seeing the same combo over and over again). It's probably worth investigating how people use tutors in your area, and possibly try to convince them to use them more 'wisely'. Gentlepersons's agreement, if you will (like when mystical tutor wasn't banned in early legacy era).
I'd probably go for the unconditional, under 4CMC ones.
That said, I don't think it matters: people who want to play the same cards every game will find a way to do so regardless - unless you blanket ban all tutors which is just another whole can of worms not worth the hassle. Quite probably more productive to have a conversation with your playgroup about having more variability in your games and 'soft' ban tutor usage. That they can be used, but doing it for the sake of doing the easy, predictable and repeatable win conditions can be frowned upon. Buuut obviously this depends on your playgroup.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
X Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile W Ghosty Blinky Anafenza U Nezahal- Big, Blue and HERE! B Gonti Can Afford It R Etali, Primal 'Whatjusthappened?' G Polukranos Wants More Mana WU The Exalted Vizier Temmet WB Home, Athreos WR Basandra, Recursive Aggression WG Karametra, Momma of Lands UB Wrexial Eats Your Brains UR Arjun, the Mad Flame UG The Fable of Prime Speaker BR Hellbent, Malfegor Style BG Jarad, Death is Served RG Running Thromok WUB Varina and ALL the Zombies WUBYennett, the Odd Pain-Train WUR Zedruu the Furyhearted WUG Arcades' Strategy, Shmategy, Sausage and Spam WBR A Case of Mathas' Persistent F*ckery WBRLicia's League of Legendary Lifegain Layabouts WBG The Karador Advantage PackageWRG Gahiji Rattlesnake Collection UBR Jeleva... does... things UBG Damia's Just Deserts URG Yasova's Has More Power Than Sense BRG Wasitora, Bad Kitty WUBRBreya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs WUBG Tymna and Kydele, Extended Borrowing WURG Kynaios and Tiro, Landfall Impersonations WBRG Saskia Pet Card EnchantressUBRG Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation WUBRG Tazri's Amazing Allies
having run demonic consultation myself in EDH quite a bit, i can tell you that my target has a seemingly high chance of being in the top 6 cards of my library. It also exiles a huge chunk of the library, which can mean exiling useful wincons and so on.
If you're casting Demonic Consultation, you're expecting to win the game that turn or lose the game by your next draw step at the latest. Exiling wincon cards other than the one you named are irrelevant at that point.
having run demonic consultation myself in EDH quite a bit, i can tell you that my target has a seemingly high chance of being in the top 6 cards of my library. It also exiles a huge chunk of the library, which can mean exiling useful wincons and so on.
If you're casting Demonic Consultation, you're expecting to win the game that turn or lose the game by your next draw step at the latest. Exiling wincon cards other than the one you named are irrelevant at that point.
Or you already have Laboratory Maniac out and you named a card that isn't even in your deck. Same difference.
But my original point was that once is good, twice is why.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So, you all decide to cut the best tutors.
Which tutors would you choose to house ban?
(I realize this is also going to end up being a list of the best tutors, but what can you do)
Most everyone would agree that Demonic Tutor is better than Sidisi, Undead Vizier... but it is a lot easier to recur Sidisi and tutor multiple times. So, with that in mind, please also consider what tutors are the most abusable.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I mean enlightened tutor is good, but it can only search for a pretty specific type of card from your deck. banning only 1 specific tutor effect seems pretty weak when you're comparing cruel tutor, imperial seal, vampiric tutor and so on as redundancy.
By the way, i'd say that demonic consultation should be completely ok and not banned. Since you might end up decking yourself and/or exile 3/4 of your library.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Actually, applying a "Demonic Consultation" clause in-lieu of all search effects sounds like a plan a group could house-rule. Instead of naming a card, you name a card type (for general tutors like Demonic Tutor or multiple choice tutors like Enlightened Tutor) and filter until you hit the first card of that type, then shuffle the rest into the library (exiling as a overall rule would be too much I'd say).
There might need to be a sub-clause for ramp cards though (since they search), depending on how prevalent ramp is in the meta and how much people want to curb it. It can go anywhere to excluding ramp from filtering, changing it to filter by basic land type (instead of card type) so Rampant Growth isn't affected as much as fetchlands are, or the heavy-handed method of literally letting Rampant Growth hit the first random basic land via filtering.
I think you make a rule that changes the way tutors function. Something like if there was always a modified Aven Mindcensor in play.
Instead of searching your library, you search the top 4 cards (or more than 4 if you don't want to be too punitive). Also, with conditional tutors, you might want to make it so they reveal until they encounter the card type, so that they can't miss (although that does open the exploit of search for an artifact with only 1 artifact in the deck).
The added benefit of a house rule changing the function of tutors, as opposed to a house ban on tutors, is no ones deck is suddenly illegal. If a new player shows up, they can have the rule explained, and rather than needing to change their deck, it's still playable.
The problem with this whole approach, though, is that while it may slow down combo, it won't stop overpowered stuff from happening. People can still win on the spot by playing Genesis Wave or Primal Surge in a properly-tuned deck and running lots of draw effects to get to those cards. Tutors on a stick which might not seem problematic can be very powerful when paired with recursion (Sun Titan, Alesha, Nim Deathmantle, etc.)
Of course, "crazy stuff happening" is part of what we should probably be striving for in EDH, so long as it isn't boring crazy stuff, like tutoring for an "I win" combo game after game. How cards like GWave and PSurge fit into that is an open question.
In this case, not really. Yeah, you default to the next best thing, but this eliminates early game consistency and mid game same turn combo piece search and deploy. Waiting until turn 4 to fire off diabolic is pretty mediocre (or turn 3 and 3 life for cruel). It also restricts tutoring to black, while making it a weaker effect overall.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I am okay with some amount of tutors, I guess... I am thinking that if you ban the best ones, people will tutor less. At a certain point, paying 4 or 5 mana to search up a card is not very efficient.
Changing how a tutor works sounds really interesting. If you reveal cards until you find one that fits the clause, I think you get some weird scenarios where someone's Birthing Pod still works exactly the same (because they only have one 7 drop maybe) or if you limit to the top X cards, the tutor does nothing.
I feel like the 1-2 mana tutors are the biggest offenders. I think the tempo loss from playing a 4/5 mana tutor is a pretty serious consideration.
I don't know.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
chord of calling, protean hulk, entomb
i've seen these abused far more than the mirage ones. they also generally have that massive surprise factor that pushes them further toward ending things on the spot.
Misty Rainforest
Polluted Delta
Flooded Strand
Scalding Tarn
Verdant Catacombs
Wooded Foothills
Windswept Heath
Bloodstained Mire
Arid Mesa
Marsh Flats
(Can you even imagine the deck restructuring that would take place, I sure as hell can't)
Sometimes you only need just one. Which, by the way, is also why Sidisi isn't the same as D-Tutor.
This is why Demonic Consultation is banned in Legacy, restricted in Vintage, but Divining Witch is a frequent guest on "Worst Card In Magic" lists. Being able to reuse a card easily just doesn't matter if that card can just grab you a win condition (or is a win condition).
On phasing:
I think you just need to adjust the social contract in your playgroup. The main problem for you seems to be seeing the same cards over and over again due to tutors. So then agree with your playgroup that you don’t use cards with that intention, and leave the interpretation to the players. The problem is not people’s decks running consistently (due to fetches or land search and such) but people’s decks consistently having the same cards in play.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Well one may may argue that banning the 2nd, 3rd and 4th copy of a card in a deck can cause collateral damage, as it would be having always access to a creature that can be repeatedly cast even if it gets killed or exiled.
that's true, but having run demonic consultation myself in EDH quite a bit, i can tell you that my target has a seemingly high chance of being in the top 6 cards of my library. It also exiles a huge chunk of the library, which can mean exiling useful wincons and so on. Also, it makes the rest of the table 'rest assured' that i'm losing a big chunk of my library.
Generally though, if people use tutors to get silver-bullet answers for a threat on the table, that's good. If people use tutors to fetch combo pieces, that's not so much fun anymore (even i get sick of seeing the same combo over and over again). It's probably worth investigating how people use tutors in your area, and possibly try to convince them to use them more 'wisely'. Gentlepersons's agreement, if you will (like when mystical tutor wasn't banned in early legacy era).
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
That said, I don't think it matters: people who want to play the same cards every game will find a way to do so regardless - unless you blanket ban all tutors which is just another whole can of worms not worth the hassle. Quite probably more productive to have a conversation with your playgroup about having more variability in your games and 'soft' ban tutor usage. That they can be used, but doing it for the sake of doing the easy, predictable and repeatable win conditions can be frowned upon. Buuut obviously this depends on your playgroup.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Black:
demonic tutor
vampiric tutor
imperial seal
grim tutor
entomb
burried alive
praetor's grasp
Blue:
mystical tutor
intuition
whir of invention
tezzeret the seeker
spellseeker
trinket mage
fabricate
merchant scroll
transmute artifact
reshape
Green:
worldly tutor
survival of the fittest
natural order
green sun's zenith
birthing pod
yisan, the wandering bard
chord of calling
sylvan scrying
crop rotation
tooth and nail
Red:
gamble
godo, bandit warlord
imperial recruiter
White:
enlightened tutor
idyllic tutor
academy rector
boonweaver giant
call the gatewatch
recruiter of the guard
steelshaper's gift
stoneforge mystic
Gold:
eladamri's call
captain sisay
zur the enchanter
Or you already have Laboratory Maniac out and you named a card that isn't even in your deck. Same difference.
But my original point was that once is good, twice is why.
On phasing:
I don't understand why you would ban praetor's grasp but keep bribery