For those who don't understand, it's simple: The ramp player now has fewer mana cards in his or her library; essentially, when I draw a Skyshroud Claim, that takes a mana card out of my library, and playing it then takes two more mana cards out of my library. That's a lot of investment, when you consider that "ramp players" typically ramp to 10 or more. (It's the difference between just playing green and playing green ramp. Just as the difference between just playing blue and playing draw-go is just how many counters you run.)
And yeah, who thinks you can just recover after discarding to Mind Twist? I'm in topdeck mode, and I just have to draw a Reforge the Soul or Blue Sun's Zenith or Damnable Pact or Shamanic Revelation (lol u sux white) to fix that? I call bull***** on that. Yeah, I can fix my problem that way, but what are the odds of me doing so? Even the green options all depend on my board state.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Hold on did I just see that you could top deck a mass draw spell in response to a Mind Twist on this page and you will be fine afterwords? Let alone the fact that Mind Twist is a card that only targets one player and not all the lands in play, and not alone the differences of finding one of those spells depending on what kind of deck you are playing.
The amount you are behind is a different level of magnitude.
If you gave me the choice in 90% of Commander games of Mind Twist my hand or cast Armageddon I am picking the latter every single time.
And yeah, who thinks you can just recover after discarding to Mind Twist? I'm in topdeck mode, and I just have to draw a Reforge the Soul or Blue Sun's Zenith or Damnable Pact or Shamanic Revelation (lol u sux white) to fix that? I call bull***** on that. Yeah, I can fix my problem that way, but what are the odds of me doing so? Even the green options all depend on my board state.
I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison between which I'd rather have happen to me, rather simply to illustrate that discard is at least possible to recover from quickly. Whereas for most decks there's no possibility of recovery from a geddon when behind on board.
Obviously which is actually worse for you depends on your deck and what's currently going on. The fact that mind twist only hits you is a big difference - perhaps a better point of comparison would be mindslicer. But I think this points to mind twist being the superior anti-ramp card, since you can single a player out rather than setting everyone back (assuming you aren't playing geddon as a wincon, which is more likely the case).
And sure, maybe the ramp player has a slightly thinner deck from tutoring lands which gives them slightly lower chances to topdeck them, but that's not nearly as relevant as the current board state. Unless they've cast boundless realms specifically, they're probably looking at like a difference of a single-digit percentage at worst in terms of drawing, and most of the time when geddon resolves drawing isn't very relevant anyway since the board state is all that matters. One uncontested planeswalker or a gilded lotus is worth a dozen lands in hand.
If a player (or players) has a significant proportion of their mana generation tied up in artifacts, is it against the "social contract" to play Bane of Progress? Likewise for a bunch of elves and a Wrath of God?
(and I'm not meaning this as a "gotcha". I'm genuinely interested what peoples' thoughts on attacking non-land mana sources, and, if they are OK with it, why they view them differently from lands)
If a player (or players) has a significant proportion of their mana generation tied up in artifacts, is it against the "social contract" to play Bane of Progress? Likewise for a bunch of elves and a Wrath of God?
(and I'm not meaning this as a "gotcha". I'm genuinely interested what peoples' thoughts on attacking non-land mana sources, and, if they are OK with it, why they view them differently from lands)
To be honest, I think it’s more about it being a land that is sacred more than anything else.
I remember when I was a kid playing back in 4th edition, armageddon/ernham djinn was a thing, and it basically sealed the game afterwards. And being a kid, we just blame the OP cards, right? Nowadays, I tend to think that it’s a part of the game, to be better prepared against the deck/strategy. I learned to sandbag lands in hand, I learned to not overcommit, use counters wisely, and so on.
At the end of the day, if some players don’t want to adjust their strategy to meet the meta, it’s their own deck and their own game, I suppose. I get that not everyone has time to mess with the deck, but there are good in-game things you can do to offset MLD.
Just as if a ramp player is going nuts every game, the rest of the table has to also recognize it for what it is; ramp is a threat that needs to be answered.
If a player (or players) has a significant proportion of their mana generation tied up in artifacts, is it against the "social contract" to play Bane of Progress? Likewise for a bunch of elves and a Wrath of God?
(and I'm not meaning this as a "gotcha". I'm genuinely interested what peoples' thoughts on attacking non-land mana sources, and, if they are OK with it, why they view them differently from lands)
If armageddon said "destroy all lands that got put into play by spells" (which is essentially the equivalent of bane of progress or wrath of god) then I don't think this thread would have any arguments at all in it.
Probably some people do consider lands sacred and are just being whiners, but my problem is with the ability for a single card to destroy 100% of someone's mana. That is, imo, too strong of an effect for a single spell, especially a 4 mana spell that many decks have no capability to interact with meaningfully.
If a player (or players) has a significant proportion of their mana generation tied up in artifacts, is it against the "social contract" to play Bane of Progress? Likewise for a bunch of elves and a Wrath of God?
You don't have to devote 30-40% of your deck to artifact/elves and you don't have to play an artifact/elf every turn in order to make significant plays.
Comparing land drops to other resources is just... silly.
It's like if they put an unit able to destroy crystals and vespene gas in starcraft. You can destroy workers, why not destroy resources also?
Because those basic resources are required to enjoy the game.
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Yes but that is coming from a position that the ability to destroy those things have not been printed on cards throughout magics history beginning at the very beginning.
Land destruction isn't a new feature or a patch to this game it is this game as much as anything else is.
It isn't someone's mana it is everyone's mana it is a meaningful distinction.
Well, that's not quite accurate either. It doesn't destroy everyone's mana, or at least not ALL of everyone's mana. Mana dorks and rocks are left unaffected, which are just two of the ways to break the symmetry of the effect.
It's really less of an anti-ramp card, and more of a pro-artifact-ramp card.
It's about as much of an anti-ramp card as tooth and nail, or any other win-the-game card, is. I mean I guess winning the game does stop ramp, you've got me there.
Yes but that is coming from a position that the ability to destroy those things have not been printed on cards throughout magics history beginning at the very beginning.
Land destruction isn't a new feature or a patch to this game it is this game as much as anything else is.
Cards can be mistakes you know. Otherwise yeah i'd like to start a petition for green lightning bolt since hornet sting exists.
Yeah land destruction isn't a new feature, it's actually the opposite, recently they are avoiding it as much as possible.
Maybe they understood too that land destruction is just miserable and the best way to combat ramp are effects like damping sphere?
But the problem is exactly that: damping sphere makes thing fair. MLD can easily be exploited to give you a big advantage while everyone else feel miserable
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
Land Destruction is still being printed, it isn't as good as it has been printed in the past but I think generally you can only say that is not true of Creatures these days with a straight face.
Land Destruction is still being printed, it isn't as good as it has been printed in the past but I think generally you can only say that is not true of Creatures these days with a straight face.
Targeted land destruction, yes, MLD, not really. No reasonable person thinks targeted LD is a serious problem, especially in multiplayer. There's stuff like the great aurora that you could kiiiind of claim as MLD but it's a real stretch. By far the closest we've had was fall of the thran, but that's a very far cry from armageddon and is much closer to stuff like natural balance.
There have been some real MLD as recently as TSP, kamigawa, etc, which isn't so long ago (or maybe I'm just old). But I think part of the issue is that MLD isn't nearly as big a problem in the more classic magic formats - 20 life, 1v1. In a faster format like that, beating MLD is much easier - just kill them before they play it, or have enough on board that they can't afford to play it. In commander, that solution is much more difficult to pull off, unless you're playing fast combos. Unless you already know the decks, you don't know who to kill, and MLD is in multiple colors so most decks could conceivably be packing, so that solution is basically off the table. Which means your options are to either never let someone else be ahead, or to be running counterspells. Pretty limited avenues of interaction. Now that commander is one of the most popular formats, I think wotc is a lot more hesitant to print MLD, even overpriced MLD that won't see play in standard, because it's going to be powerful at casual commander tables at almost any sane price.
To be clear, I think in a cEDH context they're fine because the ability to win before they resolve, or win afterwards even with just a couple land, is very plausible. But in a lower-powered meta I think they're way too powerful.
I remember when I was a kid playing back in 4th edition, armageddon/ernham djinn was a thing, and it basically sealed the game afterwards. And being a kid, we just blame the OP cards, right? Nowadays, I tend to think that it’s a part of the game, to be better prepared against the deck/strategy. I learned to sandbag lands in hand, I learned to not overcommit, use counters wisely, and so on.
I don't remember having that much trouble with geddon. Live and learn, don't overcommit, etc.
But one problem is players who play it incompetently, like if they're about ready to lose. Only a good idea of the threat you're about to lose to has landfall and you know opp has Boundless Realms in his hand, and there are no other potentially lethal threats out there. (In other words, never a good idea.)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I don't remember having that much trouble with geddon. Live and learn, don't overcommit, etc.
But one problem is players who play it incompetently, like if they're about ready to lose. Only a good idea of the threat you're about to lose to has landfall and you know opp has Boundless Realms in his hand, and there are no other potentially lethal threats out there. (In other words, never a good idea.)
The problem is, as I recall someone stated before, EDH generally speaking has a sacrosanct approach to lands that are "just" lands, so there really isn't a need to hold back land drops just because what if maybe someone casts a MLD spell. If I operate under that mentality I'll lose more games than I win because I'm either artificially missing land drops or arbitrarily increasing my land count for a situation that probably won't ever occur. Of course, all bets are off if I'm in a known group that runs MLD. But for the majority of us, it isnt overcommiting to play a land drop every turn and not sandbag a few lands.
Wildfire doesn’t play itself. It is played by a player who is strategically deploying cards. There are situations in which it is very bad, and you do not need to play it. There are other situations in which it is very good. Here’s an example:
I have Wildfire tucked under a Spinerock Knoll. Xantcha is out, and I have Coffers/Urborg and 9 lands, while the ramp player has out 12 lands. Both other players have 8. Ramp player Strip Mine’s my Coffers. In response, I activate Xantcha 4 times and cast Wildfire. When the dust settles, the ramp player has 7 lands, I have 5, and the other players have 4. I wiped the board except for Xantcha, and now everyone is strongly considering using Xantcha’s ability to draw and dig for more mana. Again, the card is a tool in the tool box, not a “Well, I’m at 6 mana, hue hue hue, cast Wildfire. LOL!”
This is a good point about Wildfire. I actually cut it from my Windgrace "everybody sacrifice lands; it's symmetrical so it's fair" deck because I found that most of the time casting it wasn't actually beneficial to me. Cards like Tremble and even Razing Snidd just ended up more useful to me. This is a deck that runs things like Keldon Firebombers, Pox, Death Cloud, Desolation, etc.
If a player (or players) has a significant proportion of their mana generation tied up in artifacts, is it against the "social contract" to play Bane of Progress? Likewise for a bunch of elves and a Wrath of God?
(and I'm not meaning this as a "gotcha". I'm genuinely interested what peoples' thoughts on attacking non-land mana sources, and, if they are OK with it, why they view them differently from lands)
You are not limited to one artifact or creature per turn by rules. You don't have to have artifact mana or dorks to play the game. You must have lands, and there is a limit per turn, to start any sort of meaningful game (with a few corner cases). You do not turn off people's ability to play the game with destruction of artifacts or mana dorks. In a format where we are supposed to care about others having fun, that should matter.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Land Destruction is still being printed, it isn't as good as it has been printed in the past but I think generally you can only say that is not true of Creatures these days with a straight face.
You ignored all my other points just to make this poor argument?
Tell me with a straight which playable land destruction effect they printed after... i don't know... return to ravnica?
Plenty of powerful spells printed during this period (cyclonic rift, toxic deluge), land destruction got the shaft.
They don't want to print that ***** anymore because no one want to play that ***** anymore. Except the jerk that use it to win uncontested of course. damping sphere, blood sun, alpine moon. These are the kind of land destruction that they are pushing now
And they aren't popular in edh because they are FAIR
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
I recently caught up with some old Command Zone podcasts, specifically their stats episodes, and one thing that stuck out to me was the overwhelming advantage that decks with the most lands in play have in winning.
Generally, people see any land based ramp spell as fairly non-threatening, but getting ahead in mana and therefore spending more mana over the course of the game is the single biggest predictor of winning according to the episode.
All that said, what are some ways to combat these strategies? MLD generally would do it, but it’s frowned upon even by non-ramp players.
My playgroup has been fine with me using Wake of Destruction. This might be because I have known all of the people at this LGS for years and they have all in one way or another played most of my EDH decks. They know me as a person and as a player and know I'm not being an ass in the way I use it. When they see me use MLD its always been the same card every time and in very similar situations too. Not a single person at my LGS has ever had a problem with the deck I run it in either, my Grusilda, Monster Masher EDH deck. Yes at my LGS we are so casual that we have a few players with silver border commanders and we also play Star EDH as well as Pauper EDH. (Btw my favorite Monster Mash is Archfiend of Despair + Emissary of Grudges... it's so terrifying)
Timing is also important when I use the spell. I don't like leaving a player helpless with nothing. I use it pretty much only on basic forests when the opponent has other mana rocks and other land types to fall back on. This means that for the multicolor decks I have done something relevant to their gameplay that doesn't stop them from playing their deck entirely but, as I am intending to do - it interferes with them at a critical point. Forests are the most ubiquitous choice for ramp spells.. What ends up happening is that all of the blue, red or black players appreciate it because they're all jealous of the ramp too - or on the verge of losing to the green player in the moment anyways. At my LGS most EDH games are using multicolor decks.. half the table or more is always running blue alternate colors to fall back on. Politics matters too, sometimes I let my opponents chime in if the game is kind of dead even.
If a player (or players) has a significant proportion of their mana generation tied up in artifacts, is it against the "social contract" to play Bane of Progress? Likewise for a bunch of elves and a Wrath of God?
(and I'm not meaning this as a "gotcha". I'm genuinely interested what peoples' thoughts on attacking non-land mana sources, and, if they are OK with it, why they view them differently from lands)
You are not limited to one artifact or creature per turn by rules. You don't have to have artifact mana or dorks to play the game. You must have lands, and there is a limit per turn, to start any sort of meaningful game (with a few corner cases). You do not turn off people's ability to play the game with destruction of artifacts or mana dorks. In a format where we are supposed to care about others having fun, that should matter.
Well, for a start, you are not really limited to one land per turn. That's kind the whole point of the thread - people ramping, typically by getting extra land into play. What's the difference between a Rampant Growth and a Sky Diamond? But even then, so what? I'm wondering what the difference between destroying land based mana sources in play and destroying non-land mana sources in play is. I've had plenty of games where the majority of my mana came from artifacts or creatures. Having them destroyed would turn off my ability to play the game far more than someone blowing up my lands. So why is it OK to do one of those things but not the other?
If people agree to not play Bane of Progress or Vandalblast or Austere Command or Wrath of God when I'm dependent on things they destroy for the bulk of my mana, I'd be fine to not use Armageddon when people are dependent on land for the bulk of their mana.
I don't think there's a problem with destroying "the bulk" of someone's mana. As I've said I'm fine with natural balance. The problem is in destroying ALL of someone's mana. Which will very rarely be the case for artifacts or creatures.
And yeah, who thinks you can just recover after discarding to Mind Twist? I'm in topdeck mode, and I just have to draw a Reforge the Soul or Blue Sun's Zenith or Damnable Pact or Shamanic Revelation (lol u sux white) to fix that? I call bull***** on that. Yeah, I can fix my problem that way, but what are the odds of me doing so? Even the green options all depend on my board state.
On phasing:
I wasn't trying to make a direct comparison between which I'd rather have happen to me, rather simply to illustrate that discard is at least possible to recover from quickly. Whereas for most decks there's no possibility of recovery from a geddon when behind on board.
Obviously which is actually worse for you depends on your deck and what's currently going on. The fact that mind twist only hits you is a big difference - perhaps a better point of comparison would be mindslicer. But I think this points to mind twist being the superior anti-ramp card, since you can single a player out rather than setting everyone back (assuming you aren't playing geddon as a wincon, which is more likely the case).
And sure, maybe the ramp player has a slightly thinner deck from tutoring lands which gives them slightly lower chances to topdeck them, but that's not nearly as relevant as the current board state. Unless they've cast boundless realms specifically, they're probably looking at like a difference of a single-digit percentage at worst in terms of drawing, and most of the time when geddon resolves drawing isn't very relevant anyway since the board state is all that matters. One uncontested planeswalker or a gilded lotus is worth a dozen lands in hand.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
(and I'm not meaning this as a "gotcha". I'm genuinely interested what peoples' thoughts on attacking non-land mana sources, and, if they are OK with it, why they view them differently from lands)
To be honest, I think it’s more about it being a land that is sacred more than anything else.
I remember when I was a kid playing back in 4th edition, armageddon/ernham djinn was a thing, and it basically sealed the game afterwards. And being a kid, we just blame the OP cards, right? Nowadays, I tend to think that it’s a part of the game, to be better prepared against the deck/strategy. I learned to sandbag lands in hand, I learned to not overcommit, use counters wisely, and so on.
At the end of the day, if some players don’t want to adjust their strategy to meet the meta, it’s their own deck and their own game, I suppose. I get that not everyone has time to mess with the deck, but there are good in-game things you can do to offset MLD.
Just as if a ramp player is going nuts every game, the rest of the table has to also recognize it for what it is; ramp is a threat that needs to be answered.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Probably some people do consider lands sacred and are just being whiners, but my problem is with the ability for a single card to destroy 100% of someone's mana. That is, imo, too strong of an effect for a single spell, especially a 4 mana spell that many decks have no capability to interact with meaningfully.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
The closest you get to single target stuff like that is all the mono-colored land destruction like Flashfires or Boil or Wake of Destruction
You don't have to devote 30-40% of your deck to artifact/elves and you don't have to play an artifact/elf every turn in order to make significant plays.
Comparing land drops to other resources is just... silly.
It's like if they put an unit able to destroy crystals and vespene gas in starcraft. You can destroy workers, why not destroy resources also?
Because those basic resources are required to enjoy the game.
Land destruction isn't a new feature or a patch to this game it is this game as much as anything else is.
It's really less of an anti-ramp card, and more of a pro-artifact-ramp card.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Cards can be mistakes you know. Otherwise yeah i'd like to start a petition for green lightning bolt since hornet sting exists.
Yeah land destruction isn't a new feature, it's actually the opposite, recently they are avoiding it as much as possible.
Maybe they understood too that land destruction is just miserable and the best way to combat ramp are effects like damping sphere?
But the problem is exactly that: damping sphere makes thing fair. MLD can easily be exploited to give you a big advantage while everyone else feel miserable
There have been some real MLD as recently as TSP, kamigawa, etc, which isn't so long ago (or maybe I'm just old). But I think part of the issue is that MLD isn't nearly as big a problem in the more classic magic formats - 20 life, 1v1. In a faster format like that, beating MLD is much easier - just kill them before they play it, or have enough on board that they can't afford to play it. In commander, that solution is much more difficult to pull off, unless you're playing fast combos. Unless you already know the decks, you don't know who to kill, and MLD is in multiple colors so most decks could conceivably be packing, so that solution is basically off the table. Which means your options are to either never let someone else be ahead, or to be running counterspells. Pretty limited avenues of interaction. Now that commander is one of the most popular formats, I think wotc is a lot more hesitant to print MLD, even overpriced MLD that won't see play in standard, because it's going to be powerful at casual commander tables at almost any sane price.
To be clear, I think in a cEDH context they're fine because the ability to win before they resolve, or win afterwards even with just a couple land, is very plausible. But in a lower-powered meta I think they're way too powerful.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I don't remember having that much trouble with geddon. Live and learn, don't overcommit, etc.
But one problem is players who play it incompetently, like if they're about ready to lose. Only a good idea of the threat you're about to lose to has landfall and you know opp has Boundless Realms in his hand, and there are no other potentially lethal threats out there. (In other words, never a good idea.)
On phasing:
The problem is, as I recall someone stated before, EDH generally speaking has a sacrosanct approach to lands that are "just" lands, so there really isn't a need to hold back land drops just because what if maybe someone casts a MLD spell. If I operate under that mentality I'll lose more games than I win because I'm either artificially missing land drops or arbitrarily increasing my land count for a situation that probably won't ever occur. Of course, all bets are off if I'm in a known group that runs MLD. But for the majority of us, it isnt overcommiting to play a land drop every turn and not sandbag a few lands.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
You ignored all my other points just to make this poor argument?
Tell me with a straight which playable land destruction effect they printed after... i don't know... return to ravnica?
Plenty of powerful spells printed during this period (cyclonic rift, toxic deluge), land destruction got the shaft.
They don't want to print that ***** anymore because no one want to play that ***** anymore. Except the jerk that use it to win uncontested of course.
damping sphere, blood sun, alpine moon. These are the kind of land destruction that they are pushing now
And they aren't popular in edh because they are FAIR
A control deck is well equipped to deal with an explosion of ramp however depending on what colors you are in that control changes.
If you can't control the spell you control the fuel for it. In the end the spell is controlled.
My playgroup has been fine with me using Wake of Destruction. This might be because I have known all of the people at this LGS for years and they have all in one way or another played most of my EDH decks. They know me as a person and as a player and know I'm not being an ass in the way I use it. When they see me use MLD its always been the same card every time and in very similar situations too. Not a single person at my LGS has ever had a problem with the deck I run it in either, my Grusilda, Monster Masher EDH deck. Yes at my LGS we are so casual that we have a few players with silver border commanders and we also play Star EDH as well as Pauper EDH. (Btw my favorite Monster Mash is Archfiend of Despair + Emissary of Grudges... it's so terrifying)
Timing is also important when I use the spell. I don't like leaving a player helpless with nothing. I use it pretty much only on basic forests when the opponent has other mana rocks and other land types to fall back on. This means that for the multicolor decks I have done something relevant to their gameplay that doesn't stop them from playing their deck entirely but, as I am intending to do - it interferes with them at a critical point. Forests are the most ubiquitous choice for ramp spells.. What ends up happening is that all of the blue, red or black players appreciate it because they're all jealous of the ramp too - or on the verge of losing to the green player in the moment anyways. At my LGS most EDH games are using multicolor decks.. half the table or more is always running blue alternate colors to fall back on. Politics matters too, sometimes I let my opponents chime in if the game is kind of dead even.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
Well, for a start, you are not really limited to one land per turn. That's kind the whole point of the thread - people ramping, typically by getting extra land into play. What's the difference between a Rampant Growth and a Sky Diamond? But even then, so what? I'm wondering what the difference between destroying land based mana sources in play and destroying non-land mana sources in play is. I've had plenty of games where the majority of my mana came from artifacts or creatures. Having them destroyed would turn off my ability to play the game far more than someone blowing up my lands. So why is it OK to do one of those things but not the other?
If people agree to not play Bane of Progress or Vandalblast or Austere Command or Wrath of God when I'm dependent on things they destroy for the bulk of my mana, I'd be fine to not use Armageddon when people are dependent on land for the bulk of their mana.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6