So there is a player who is running lock out situations in our league, such as Solemnity + Decree of Silence as one example. This has been constant enough to cause other players to scoop. However, this causes another set of problems because we have a dookie against scooping in order to deny someone points, which this player is claiming since they no longer can keep playing and try to get additional points.
So anyway, I'm trying to think of how to approach this and thought I'd get your thoughts as well.
Clarify that the concession rule only applies possible points on that single turn. The usual point of the rule is to make it so you don't concede to a Sword of Feast and Famine hit or to someone casting lethal damage. A multiturn lockout is just asinine.
Clarify that the concession rule only applies possible points on that single turn. The usual point of the rule is to make it so you don't concede to a Sword of Feast and Famine hit or to someone casting lethal damage. A multiturn lockout is just asinine.
That's a really good idea, and simple enough that I don't know why I didn't think about it before.
Or just make scooping available without penalty at sorcery speed. Fixes most problems allows lockout player to possibly rack up a little more points on others turn.
I take it that this lock out play style is welcome with the rest of the group? From the initial post, the way that points are given through the league dissuades this sort of playstyle by providing low points per game in which case it should be left alone IMO.
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So, I have a huge issue with leagues because they promote tryhard point farming as money is on the line. I am strongly against ever putting money on the line with multiplayer magic. It pushes out casual players and it forces people to focus more on winning rather than having fun.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I take it that this lock out play style is welcome with the rest of the group? From the initial post, the way that points are given through the league dissuades this sort of playstyle by providing low points per game in which case it should be left alone IMO.
Not really, we do use dookies to discourage certain things, but there isn't a check in place against this particular thing.
So, I have a huge issue with leagues because they promote tryhard point farming as money is on the line. I am strongly against ever putting money on the line with multiplayer magic. It pushes out casual players and it forces people to focus more on winning rather than having fun.
That's a discussion for another thread. I'm not asking for anyone's opinion on leagues. We have one that we enjoy and aren't looking to change that.
Not really, we do use dookies to discourage certain things, but there isn't a check in place against this particular thing.
That's a discussion for another thread. I'm not asking for anyone's opinion on leagues. We have one that we enjoy and aren't looking to change that.
Most of what you are talking about in the OP is happening because people are fighting over points though. If it was a normal no stakes game of commander there would be no reason not to scoop and no reason for the other player to lockup the game over comboing off in a way that wins.
I guess you could put a rule in that if you get locked out of the game you are forced to scoop though but its hard to say to what degree it would have to be. Technically you could cast an Ulamog and get the exile / destroy effects to trigger through that setup or wait until you draw your copy of cavern of souls from your deck to get out of a lock like that so I guess I could see reason not to scoop if you legitimately had a way out of it.
I recently heard of a game on MTG Arena though where someone played out their entire deck and only had 4x Nexus of Fate left in their deck. They were playing against a popular streamer who refused to give up and they sat there for over 2 hours refusing to scoop to the opponent who had no real option other than continue to loop Nexus of Fate. In such an event where playing on a ranked ladder do you fault someone for refusing to scoop to a wincon that technically doesn't win the game? I think in some regards your question falls to something like this. There is money on the line and sure, the game is locked up but can that player actually win?
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
So, I have a huge issue with leagues because they promote tryhard point farming as money is on the line. I am strongly against ever putting money on the line with multiplayer magic. It pushes out casual players and it forces people to focus more on winning rather than having fun.
That's the nature of anything competitive. Set up points, and the optimum build to the metagame becomes "maximize point accrual" instead of "win the game". Players, by our own human nature (pretty sure we don't have any androids playing yet ) are going to build toward whatever is most efficient at generating the most profit while minimizing overhead. This is true in far more than just Magic.
Our league, one with no monetary investment and a minor prize, has a scoop at sorcery speed rule. And the “kill a player” rule has a clause for getting the point for scooping.
Use the point system to correct it.
-1 For each activation past the 6th in a turn cycle.
-1 For each spell countered after the 2nd in a turn cycle.
-1 Remove more than 50% of any players lands.
-2 Kill a player before their 5th turn.
Our league, one with no monetary investment and a minor prize, has a scoop at sorcery speed rule. And the “kill a player” rule has a clause for getting the point for scooping.
We already award the kill point to a player for someone else scooping, the issue is that the player in question is claiming that they were deprived of additional points.
Use the point system to correct it.
-1 For each activation past the 6th in a turn cycle.
-1 For each spell countered after the 2nd in a turn cycle.
-1 Remove more than 50% of any players lands.
-2 Kill a player before their 5th turn.
We already have dookies for the majority of those things, and others. This one is just a new development.
So here's the question I think you need to ask yourself and sort of what ISBPathfinder was getting at (I think): Is lock out/extreme stax welcome in your league at all? Because if the strategy is a) competitively viable and b) operating within all the other parameters of the league, I think you should leave it be. It's not really much different than wiping a table with a combo, except the onus of the losses is on the players who choose (prematurely or otherwise) to consider themselves beaten.
Either way, I don't think punishing the competent player is the correct situation in an admittedly competitive, prizepool-oriented environment like a league.
Or just make scooping available without penalty at sorcery speed. Fixes most problems allows lockout player to possibly rack up a little more points on others turn.
This has to be my vote as well. If the game is over for me, and I can't scoop at instant to bork someone, that seems pretty solid.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
We already award the kill point to a player for someone else scooping, the issue is that the player in question is claiming that they were deprived of additional points.
What points do they think they're missing? If you get the points for winning and getting player eliminations via something like stax or a lock out like that then I have no pity for you beyond what you're already getting.
What points do they think they're missing? If you get the points for winning and getting player eliminations via something like stax or a lock out like that then I have no pity for you beyond what you're already getting.
We award points for various achievements throughout the game, so the argument is that since you scooped I didn't get a chance to cast three spells in alphabetical order (for example).
Its possible you could build something in where if nobody can cast a spell in X number of turns the game is halted with no winner and you just go off of the points accumulated to that point in time or make it so after so many turns where you can't cast a spell you are forced to concede.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
"Hey buddy, don't be a greedy *****." is about my sentiments on that. Like I said before, no pity. If you create a negative play experience on your way to winning you don't get to ***** about not winning a little more than you already have.
"Hey buddy, don't be a greedy *****." is about my sentiments on that. Like I said before, no pity. If you create a negative play experience on your way to winning you don't get to ***** about not winning a little more than you already have.
Or just counter the strategy (pun intended).
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R Pauper Burn R R Legacy Burn R R Modern Burn R R Standard Burn R
The league I used to run instituted a 5 points per game maximum (before I took over running it) because we had a problem with some players simply sitting there farming points instead of ending the game, so they would wind up with scores in the neighborhood of 12+ while the people playing normally would usually get 3-5.
That did curtail point farms, but occasionally resulted in ties at the end of the night (we gave 1 pack to the top two each night, so if 3 people tied there was a problem).
So anyway, I'm trying to think of how to approach this and thought I'd get your thoughts as well.
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That's a really good idea, and simple enough that I don't know why I didn't think about it before.
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BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
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[Modern] Allies
Not really, we do use dookies to discourage certain things, but there isn't a check in place against this particular thing.
That's a discussion for another thread. I'm not asking for anyone's opinion on leagues. We have one that we enjoy and aren't looking to change that.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Most of what you are talking about in the OP is happening because people are fighting over points though. If it was a normal no stakes game of commander there would be no reason not to scoop and no reason for the other player to lockup the game over comboing off in a way that wins.
I guess you could put a rule in that if you get locked out of the game you are forced to scoop though but its hard to say to what degree it would have to be. Technically you could cast an Ulamog and get the exile / destroy effects to trigger through that setup or wait until you draw your copy of cavern of souls from your deck to get out of a lock like that so I guess I could see reason not to scoop if you legitimately had a way out of it.
I recently heard of a game on MTG Arena though where someone played out their entire deck and only had 4x Nexus of Fate left in their deck. They were playing against a popular streamer who refused to give up and they sat there for over 2 hours refusing to scoop to the opponent who had no real option other than continue to loop Nexus of Fate. In such an event where playing on a ranked ladder do you fault someone for refusing to scoop to a wincon that technically doesn't win the game? I think in some regards your question falls to something like this. There is money on the line and sure, the game is locked up but can that player actually win?
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[Modern] Allies
That's the nature of anything competitive. Set up points, and the optimum build to the metagame becomes "maximize point accrual" instead of "win the game". Players, by our own human nature (pretty sure we don't have any androids playing yet ) are going to build toward whatever is most efficient at generating the most profit while minimizing overhead. This is true in far more than just Magic.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
-1 For each activation past the 6th in a turn cycle.
-1 For each spell countered after the 2nd in a turn cycle.
-1 Remove more than 50% of any players lands.
-2 Kill a player before their 5th turn.
We already award the kill point to a player for someone else scooping, the issue is that the player in question is claiming that they were deprived of additional points.
We already have dookies for the majority of those things, and others. This one is just a new development.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Either way, I don't think punishing the competent player is the correct situation in an admittedly competitive, prizepool-oriented environment like a league.
What points do they think they're missing? If you get the points for winning and getting player eliminations via something like stax or a lock out like that then I have no pity for you beyond what you're already getting.
We award points for various achievements throughout the game, so the argument is that since you scooped I didn't get a chance to cast three spells in alphabetical order (for example).
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Yes. That's why the first suggestion I think is the way to go.
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[Modern] Allies
R Legacy Burn R
R Modern Burn R
R Standard Burn R
That did curtail point farms, but occasionally resulted in ties at the end of the night (we gave 1 pack to the top two each night, so if 3 people tied there was a problem).
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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