I think you’re underestimating the mana you need to activate those two. “I just wrathed: What can I do next this turn?” Having a deathtoucher/reacher at instant speed is great. Lifelinker is obviously worse, but still a good blocker at a cheaper cost than Ravine. Plus life gain synergies.
Again, all of these cards are good for vastly different decks. Blinkmoth always did work in my Jor deck.
While Creeping Tar Pit is indisputably the best, Celestial Colonnade and Raging Ravine are significantly better than Hissing Quagmire, Lavaclaw Reaches, Needle Spires, Shambling Vent, and Stiring Wildwood. Repeatedly activating Raging Ravine isn't living the dream it's a thing to do when you don't have better options and it gets better every time. I also think users here are over rating the ability to hold a sword and not giving enough significance to the low opportunity cost of playing creature lands.
I don't think it's very useful to look at the medium case for activating these lands. When I've played these lands, most games I never activate them. If I do activate them, it's usually because it's a particularly powerful time to do so. So I'm a lot more concerned with the ceiling than the floor. If the particular case is anywhere near the floor, it's probably not getting activated anyway.
hissing quagmire is a land that can, some reasonable percent of the time, direct an enemy attack elsewhere, without even being activated, as long as you're holding mana up. Defense > offense in multiplayer. It might actually be the best. Ofc it's weaker in higher powered games that are less reliant on combat, but that's true of all of these.
lavaclaw reaches has a very high ceiling in the form of being a tricky-to-set-up pseudo-volcanic geyser to knock someone out of the game. Also can kind of pull a hissing quagmire, but much worse since it requires a lot of mana to trade with a big creature.
needle spires' ceiling is being able to double-trigger swords, jitte, etc. Otherwise it's quite bad. So that one is more deck dependent, I wouldn't run it without some sort of combat triggers or big pumps. RW is often doing that, though.
shambling vent has synergy with some decks that care about lifegain, but also your own life is generally more valuable than enemy life in multiplayer, so having a land with a relative cheap activation that has some ability to keep you alive is, I think, superior to lands that are mostly offensive in a not-particularly-exciting way, such as ravine.
Stirring wildwood is quite mediocre but it's cheap to activate and can chump block a lethal flyer if necessary. Definitely quite unexciting but I'd reiterate that I think defense > offense, so I'd take mediocre defense over slightly better offense like ravine, or possibly colonnade (colonnade can also block flyers in addition to be a decent attacker, though, so I rated it higher despite the higher activation to do so).
If you've activated raging ravine more than once, then most likely either your deck is badly constructed or you've made a mistake. No good deck should reasonably expect to activate manlands repeatedly (arguable exceptions exist, i.e. tar pit is pretty ok in sygg, although that's still usually a last resort).
I think you're giving too much credence to the efficacy of these lands in other formats where there are fewer opponents with less life. 5 mana for 4 damage is not a reasonable use of resources in a multiplayer format with 40 life. I'd rather have a land that will sometimes be quite good, even if it's usually dormant, because in most competent decks it will be dormant most of the time anyway. If it wants to get activated ever, it will be because sometimes it can be very good, not because it's consistently mediocre.
Your logic on a lot of these is good, but I still disagree with you on Raging Ravine. One of the benefit of manlands is that in attrition battles and topdeck wars, they are still there. In situations where the board has been wiped and players are topdecking, Raging Ravine is one of the best manlands available.
Putting yourself in a situation where your gameplan is to activate these creature lands is usually very weak. But one of the benefits of them is that they are generally mana fixing for you, and if you have nothing better to do, can do more. Raging Ravine does more better than most. Not as valuable as Tarpit's unblockability or Quagmire's rattlesnake, in most cases. But stronger than you are giving it credit for.
I'd break those 10 manlands up into 4 tiers:
Tier 1: Tarpit and Hissing Quagmire - Relevant abilities. You might actually want to animate these when you have other things to do.
Tier 2: U/W, R/W, R/G, R/B - Solid beatdown (order based on your preference, as they are all close). Ravine hits hardest consistently, Lavaclaw can fireball someone out, Colonnade has evasion, and Spires works best with pumps/equips. If there's nothing better to do, these are solid uses of your mana.
Tier 3: Wildwood and Vent - Might matter in rare cases. Specifically, blocking a flier or gaining life (albeit badly).
Tier 4 : Fumarole and Falls - I mean, they are bodies. Which is not nothing, but they are far from exciting.
And for what it's worth, I'd put Tier 1 significantly above the others, and Tiers 2 through 4 as pretty close.
I think you’re underestimating the mana you need to activate those two. “I just wrathed: What can I do next this turn?” Having a deathtoucher/reacher at instant speed is great. Lifelinker is obviously worse, but still a good blocker at a cheaper cost than Ravine. Plus life gain synergies.
Again, all of these cards are good for vastly different decks. Blinkmoth always did work in my Jor deck.
Yeah, it's definitely a "deck type matters". I can't think of anything sillier (and not in a good way) than paying 3~5 mana to animate a land, paying an additional 2 for each sword or Fireshrieker every turn. Whew! Where's my Puresteel Paladin?
They are better than standard taplands, usually better than refuges. (I don't know why going on YouTube to see videos about Magic decks, I have to remind players that there is no reason to ever play a vivid land in a two-color deck, and I'm not even that hot about vivids in three colors.) But they're so much worse than many other lands that you basically have to be doing something which can use them.
Obviously this is just the WWK/BFZ/OGW lands.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Most manlands aren't good enough to warrant the ETB tapped that most of them have. Raging Ravine and Creeping Tar Pit are the only ETBT manlands I run in any deck; Tar Pit is great at killing 'walkers, and activating Ravine multiple times can make it quite large (and the deck I run it in has an Epic spell, so I need lands to do things once that's resolved).
For the ones that don't enter tapped, Inkmoth and Blinkmoth are both decent for having evasion (and having both means one can buff the other). Mishra's Factory can block as a 3/3 (or attack if it's got vigilance) for functionally 2 mana which is also quite good. Mutavault is best if you've got stuff that cares about creature types, like Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow.
I usually leave them around until needed. Most of the time I just use Mishra's Factory. To the end the game with a large swing one or two extra man lands can push the damage through. I used them with Glare of Subdual before.
If it won't hurt your mana base and you are not too worried about tempo plays in the early game then yes they are great.
I remember having one game were me and my opponent have been slogging it out for quite sometime. We are both down to the bare bones, however lucky for me I have both Celestial Colonnade and Stirring Wildwood. I just squeak out the win in the end thanks to these two cards.
Also because there are so many non basic lands people can often overlook what your lands actually do and thus attack directly into a man land.
If they serve another purpose in your deck, sure. I run Hissing Quagmire in Glissa as a rattlesnake blocker, and Creeping Tar Pit in Lazav because evasion. I can't see the point in using them unless they have a specific use, but if they do they can pull weight.
Big fan of Hissing Quagmire myself. Acts as a good rattlesnake when someone attacks you. Almost always at least one of my friends forgets I have it up and attacks, and then says "Oh, wait..."
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Again, all of these cards are good for vastly different decks. Blinkmoth always did work in my Jor deck.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
hissing quagmire is a land that can, some reasonable percent of the time, direct an enemy attack elsewhere, without even being activated, as long as you're holding mana up. Defense > offense in multiplayer. It might actually be the best. Ofc it's weaker in higher powered games that are less reliant on combat, but that's true of all of these.
lavaclaw reaches has a very high ceiling in the form of being a tricky-to-set-up pseudo-volcanic geyser to knock someone out of the game. Also can kind of pull a hissing quagmire, but much worse since it requires a lot of mana to trade with a big creature.
needle spires' ceiling is being able to double-trigger swords, jitte, etc. Otherwise it's quite bad. So that one is more deck dependent, I wouldn't run it without some sort of combat triggers or big pumps. RW is often doing that, though.
shambling vent has synergy with some decks that care about lifegain, but also your own life is generally more valuable than enemy life in multiplayer, so having a land with a relative cheap activation that has some ability to keep you alive is, I think, superior to lands that are mostly offensive in a not-particularly-exciting way, such as ravine.
Stirring wildwood is quite mediocre but it's cheap to activate and can chump block a lethal flyer if necessary. Definitely quite unexciting but I'd reiterate that I think defense > offense, so I'd take mediocre defense over slightly better offense like ravine, or possibly colonnade (colonnade can also block flyers in addition to be a decent attacker, though, so I rated it higher despite the higher activation to do so).
If you've activated raging ravine more than once, then most likely either your deck is badly constructed or you've made a mistake. No good deck should reasonably expect to activate manlands repeatedly (arguable exceptions exist, i.e. tar pit is pretty ok in sygg, although that's still usually a last resort).
I think you're giving too much credence to the efficacy of these lands in other formats where there are fewer opponents with less life. 5 mana for 4 damage is not a reasonable use of resources in a multiplayer format with 40 life. I'd rather have a land that will sometimes be quite good, even if it's usually dormant, because in most competent decks it will be dormant most of the time anyway. If it wants to get activated ever, it will be because sometimes it can be very good, not because it's consistently mediocre.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Putting yourself in a situation where your gameplan is to activate these creature lands is usually very weak. But one of the benefits of them is that they are generally mana fixing for you, and if you have nothing better to do, can do more. Raging Ravine does more better than most. Not as valuable as Tarpit's unblockability or Quagmire's rattlesnake, in most cases. But stronger than you are giving it credit for.
I'd break those 10 manlands up into 4 tiers:
Tier 1: Tarpit and Hissing Quagmire - Relevant abilities. You might actually want to animate these when you have other things to do.
Tier 2: U/W, R/W, R/G, R/B - Solid beatdown (order based on your preference, as they are all close). Ravine hits hardest consistently, Lavaclaw can fireball someone out, Colonnade has evasion, and Spires works best with pumps/equips. If there's nothing better to do, these are solid uses of your mana.
Tier 3: Wildwood and Vent - Might matter in rare cases. Specifically, blocking a flier or gaining life (albeit badly).
Tier 4 : Fumarole and Falls - I mean, they are bodies. Which is not nothing, but they are far from exciting.
And for what it's worth, I'd put Tier 1 significantly above the others, and Tiers 2 through 4 as pretty close.
Yeah, it's definitely a "deck type matters". I can't think of anything sillier (and not in a good way) than paying 3~5 mana to animate a land, paying an additional 2 for each sword or Fireshrieker every turn. Whew! Where's my Puresteel Paladin?
They are better than standard taplands, usually better than refuges. (I don't know why going on YouTube to see videos about Magic decks, I have to remind players that there is no reason to ever play a vivid land in a two-color deck, and I'm not even that hot about vivids in three colors.) But they're so much worse than many other lands that you basically have to be doing something which can use them.
Obviously this is just the WWK/BFZ/OGW lands.
On phasing:
For the ones that don't enter tapped, Inkmoth and Blinkmoth are both decent for having evasion (and having both means one can buff the other). Mishra's Factory can block as a 3/3 (or attack if it's got vigilance) for functionally 2 mana which is also quite good. Mutavault is best if you've got stuff that cares about creature types, like Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
I remember having one game were me and my opponent have been slogging it out for quite sometime. We are both down to the bare bones, however lucky for me I have both Celestial Colonnade and Stirring Wildwood. I just squeak out the win in the end thanks to these two cards.
Also because there are so many non basic lands people can often overlook what your lands actually do and thus attack directly into a man land.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan