MTG Salvation

Hey guys, after seeing the Ravnica spoilers I’m probably gonna make a deck with Lavinia (aka Teeg 2.0) as the commander, for high-powered casual tables (I still think she might not cut it as a true cedh commander due to colour identity issues etc, but that’s a whole other discussion). I’m brewing right now and probably gonna make it control/pillowforty rather than stax as a fair few stax pieces can be nonbos with her second ability. I’m running into a bit of trouble with wincons, so far I have Knowledge Pool, Omen Machine, Luminarch Ascension and (maybe) Approach of the Second Sun.

Considering Eye of the Storm but it seems redundant with both Pool and Omen Machine. I kind of want to steer away from generic Dramatic Scepter/Paradox Engine wins as I already have decks that do that and it’s a bit mean even for 75% imo. Any suggestions guys?

I'd go prison or stax. Her ability doesn't stop you, so once she's out it won't be a fair game. :3

She seems like the best Armageddon Ravages of War Cataclysm commander printed.

Delay is good with her too!

Do you want a combo win? Maybe a reveillark combo... But I feel like I would want containment priest and other hate bears in the deck.

Play Eye of the Storm... it will be good. You can probably do an Eye of the Storm win condition too. You can also play things like Mind Dilation to get your opponents' spells to get into the storm.

What's cool is that she is a defensive card that doesn't really require you to build any particular way. Some cards can be made asymmetrical with her ability, but overall your win condition is whatever you want. You can do planeswalkers (I find they work well with Stax), you can combo, you can attack with Blightsteel Colossus, or put a bunch of swords on Lavinia...

if you are in a competitive meta, she has a cool advantage over combo decks protecting their combos with free counterspells and ramping with mana rocks.

Dream Halls is exceptionally dumb with this lady out.

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I am gonna put MLD into the deck, but that said I still need ways to definitively close out the game as people in my group sometimes won’t scoop to locks. I like Luminarch Ascension, and it’s not even a dead card outside of winning through lockdown. Knowledge Pool and Omen Machine lock is probably also fine. What do you guys think of Entreat the Angels?

I think just entreat and LA are probably solid. You might get some mileage out of a Stoneforge package as it helps protect Lavinia with greaves and gives you the option to win with Sword of Fire and Ice beating face or something. Recasting her is a decent plan for the most part but it gives people windows.

I'm iffy on that, but I've seen a buddy of mine run a small stoneforge package as a backup wincon and way to protect a control commander and it was surprisingly pretty decent.

Oh, Teferi/Nexus is probably the best?

https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/lavinias-judgment/?cb=1545148165

I’ve included my draft decklist for feedback. It can go for an early combo win with the right draw but otherwise falls on a grindy game with MLD (as Lavinia makes mana rocks largely useless). Right now there’s some stuff in there I feel is iffy that I may be able to cut for more consistency. Notably Dramatic Scepter is there just because it’s a blue deck and I’m thinking of cutting them for extra rocks or artifact stax pieces/hatebears. Also not sure on Grand Arbiter as it can be a bit of a nonbo with Lavinia.

One aspect of the deck I’m concerned with is the relative lack of card advantage for a grindy control deck. Right now I’ve got Pull, Stroke, some cantrips, Dig and Treasure Cruise and they’re all one shots. The closest I have to an engine is Consecrated Sphinx. Does anyone have any ideas in this department, particularly draw engines?

in a deck with a 2 CMC commander you probably want to be running more dig. Ponder, portent, preordain, serum visions all deserve spots. reasoning for this is there are only so many 1 cmc ramp spells and you always have a 2 cmc play so you really want to fix your hand on turn 1 every game ideally.

I'd even play Tithe (which is some CA) and probably land Tax/Scroll rack.

Quick comments looking through your list:

Drownyard Temple would go nice with that Mana Vortex, especially as you can use your rocks to activate it’s ability.

Ward of Bones is another solid softlock piece with Lavinia, especially if you can ramp into it. Just don’t play your Xth land and no one can.

Since you’re already playing Knowledge Pool, why not Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir as well? It just as much a lock as Lavinia is in most cases.

Too bad Limited Resources is banned, it would be a perfect fit.

I personally don't think that Entreat the Angels is going to be very good for you. With your game plan of mass land destruction, your ability to cast the card for any meaningful amount will be limited 90% of your games.

As you're already playing Rest in Peace, a combo is to use Helm of Obedience to mill your entire opponent library. So this can be a two card win condition.

I'm not a huge fan of Path to Exile in a mana denial build. Surprising how awkward this card can feel during these types of games.

Isochron Scepter and Dramatic Reversal is a little weak in your deck. I'm not sure if you're going to accomplish that much. A lot of your spells are counterspells, I can't really see you pulling off any storm like turns.

Not a fan of the Windfall in this build either, too many times you'll not want to let opponents draw out of mana screw.

The thing is that a resolved Knowledge Pool and likely an Omen Machine if you can protect it from some spells in opponents hands that can remove it when initially cast, will end the game. As you say your opponents won't scoop, but when you can resolve spells and they can't, then it really doesn't even matter what a win con is. The Rest in Peace and Helm of Obedience should be enough to convince them in future games, that it's pointless to keep playing once you have a lock.

Other cards I'd consider playing are; Land Equilibrium, Fall of the Thran, Catastrophe.

Sphinx's Revelation -> Stroke of Genius

Quote from Taleran »

She seems like the best Armageddon Ravages of War Cataclysm commander printed.

You forgot Global Ruin. I mean, you can only get to keep two lands (unless you run Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth), but you're not limited to however many lands you control.

Catastrophe is also on this list. And you can protect your own lands with Parallax Tide.

Overburden and Mana Breach can be fun in this kind of deck.

Quote from Taleran »

Overburden and Mana Breach can be fun in this kind of deck.

Yeah and Storm Cauldron as well.

Everything you need is right here

https://www.edhrec.com/commanders/grand-arbiter-augustin-iv-stax-theme

And for win con Azor's Elocutors well one of them anyway

Or Approach of the Second Sun

Quote from Ryperior74 »

Everything you need is right here

https://www.edhrec.com/commanders/grand-arbiter-augustin-iv-stax-theme

And for win con Azor's Elocutors well one of them anyway

The thing with "Stax" when it comes to spells costing more, is that it's not actually all that good with Lavinia, Azorius Renegade. She specifically makes it so opponents can't cast cards, where as Grand Arbiter Augustin IV makes spells cost more.

So the cards that are specifically listed there are mainly centered around "costing more" or specifically shutting down mana, like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Winter Orb, Back to Basics, etc. These things do not actually help your game plan as much with Lavinia.
You REALLY want to focus on land destruction/removal with her, rather than straight up Stax pieces.
There is some pay off with further mana denial after you've cast a mass land destruction spell, but a lot of the cards in there are red-herrings to an actual focused Lavinia deck.

So just a side-note, I just realised that Mishra, Artificer Prodigy decks can actually fight through Lavinia.

Also it should be noted that Grand Arbiter Augustin IV style of Stax will help opponents in this deck.

If you tax opponents spells with additional mana it will allow spells previously locked under Lavinia's second ability to be cast because mana was spent on them.

Also, if you want people to play against your Lavinia deck more thsn once, and “everybody plays fair” style of deck is probably annoying enough. If you totally want to prevent people from playing Magic, you might want to doublecheck if your playgroup is cool with thst first. It’s not cool to spend a lot of cash on a cool new deck and having no one to play it against.

Our meta has a whole mix of playgroups, I intend to play this against other tier 1.5 decks so it should be OK.

One potential pitfall I noted when playing the deck is once Knowledge Pool lock is established opponents can save up instants and cast them when your wincon is on the Pool and even with the Knowledge Pool trigger on the stack. Two solutions to this are playing win cons that can be dropped before Pool (Serra Ascendant and Luminarch Ascension) or to give Angel’s Grace a slot so you cast it once your win con is in the pool to guarantee it resolves. Experimenting with Angel’s Grace right now (I think it’s the cheapest split second spell). The deck really doesn’t have a lot of stax pieces now, which I think is a wise choice as many tax effects nonbo with Lavinia. It’s more MLD control into Knowledge Pool and I cut out a lot of the win-more stuff like Dream Halls at the suggestion of an experienced CEDH friend. I’m quite happy so far and looking to test it today with proxies, but open to more suggestions of course. Team effort guys

Had another idea for a resilient wincon, use Dark Depths and Celestial Colonade, they never have to go in the pool.

Quote from Jinandtonic123 »

Our meta has a whole mix of playgroups, I intend to play this against other tier 1.5 decks so it should be OK.

One potential pitfall I noted when playing the deck is once Knowledge Pool lock is established opponents can save up instants and cast them when your wincon is on the Pool and even with the Knowledge Pool trigger on the stack. Two solutions to this are playing win cons that can be dropped before Pool (Serra Ascendant and Luminarch Ascension) or to give Angel’s Grace a slot so you cast it once your win con is in the pool to guarantee it resolves. Experimenting with Angel’s Grace right now (I think it’s the cheapest split second spell). The deck really doesn’t have a lot of stax pieces now, which I think is a wise choice as many tax effects nonbo with Lavinia. It’s more MLD control into Knowledge Pool and I cut out a lot of the win-more stuff like Dream Halls at the suggestion of an experienced CEDH friend. I’m quite happy so far and looking to test it today with proxies, but open to more suggestions of course. Team effort guys

I'm not sure how the Angel's Grace helps?

Quote from Jinandtonic123 »

Had another idea for a resilient wincon, use Dark Depths and Celestial Colonade, they never have to go in the pool.

Strip Mine, Wasteland, etc will stop this, so not sure if this is going to be very good.

Crucible is in the deck, which helps with Strip Mine and the like. Angel’s Grace helps because once your win condition is exiled in the Knowledge Pool you can cast Angel’s Grace in response to any instants they have to ensure your trigger is the one that gets to cast your win con. If they get to cast it it goes in the graveyard which doesn’t help them but stops you from winning with whatever card. Tbh I’d probably rather Angel’s Grace than the land plan as it’s more deterministic, like you said Strip mining stops dark depths.

Quote from Jinandtonic123 »

Crucible is in the deck, which helps with Strip Mine and the like. Angel’s Grace helps because once your win condition is exiled in the Knowledge Pool you can cast Angel’s Grace in response to any instants they have to ensure your trigger is the one that gets to cast your win con. If they get to cast it it goes in the graveyard which doesn’t help them but stops you from winning with whatever card. Tbh I’d probably rather Angel’s Grace than the land plan as it’s more deterministic, like you said Strip mining stops dark depths.

I'd check with a rules person on Knowledge Pool interaction with Split Second.
Because Split Second actually says "As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't cast spells or activate abilities that aren't mana abilities."

With Knowledge Pool the card get's exiled and doesn't seem to go onto the stack. So to me it reads that the Split Second wouldn't take effect, if you read the text on the card as verbatim.
But I do know that abilities of casting spells still trigger, for example Emrakul, the Aeons Torn will get the "When you cast this spell, take an extra turn after this one."
But you can see that Split Second is not a cast trigger, but something that takes effect while it's on the stack.

Rules person?