Hi, I have been playing a control deck for a while with good results.
I tried several wincons such as Felidar Sovereign and Test of endurance , both are great finishers but my playgroup dislike those so I toke them out of my deck.
My playgroup also dislikes infinite turns, etc.
Now my deck has some narrows wincons
1. Sanguine Bond + exquisite blood: because I have not tutors other than enlightened tutor I cant rely on this combo (by the way I never won with this)
2.Aetherflux Reservoir to the face (I have won a couple of games with this one without the help of Sydri, Galvanic Genius wich I have but have not drew in any of my games)
3. Luminarch ascension: I have never ever won with this either, was fun to play but wont last
4. Elspeth, sun's champion: never ever had more than 6 soldiers in the table before she died
5. My last and favourite wincon is having 50 cards in hand with venser's journal and sanguine bond and deleting one at a time (happen once)
All those wincons needs a lot of time, after I tok away test of endurance and Felidar sovereign I won more than 50% of the time but always at turn 15+ (20 or even more) because my wincons needs so much mana or so much life total or just so much time.
I always miss those two cards (felidar and the test) when is turn 15+ people are tired and I am against the last opponent knowing I am going to win because I have a soft lock but it will take some turns.
So I wonder (and this is the topic of the thread) is Approach of the second sun worth playing to end the game fast enought without being perceived as "unfair" like those two other insta-win cards?
Can you draw cards? Approach combos with drawing cards.
If you are planning on winning with it, that means you are first of all planning on getting it into your hand consistently. If you are able to do that the first time, when it isn't always in your top 7 cards, then it should be easy to do it the second time when you only have to go 7 deep. You should also have more than 7 Mana and be able to respond with a counter to protect it as well.
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I tried several wincons such as Felidar Sovereign and Test of endurance , both are great finishers but my playgroup dislike those so I toke them out of my deck.
I always miss those two cards (felidar and the test) when is turn 15+ people are tired and I am against the last opponent knowing I am going to win because I have a soft lock but it will take some turns.
So I wonder (and this is the topic of the thread) is Approach of the second sun worth playing to end the game fast enought without being perceived as "unfair" like those two other insta-win cards?
Well first of all, shame on your playgroup. Felidar Sovereign and Test of endurance are not exactly easy win conditions, you have to do a few things to get this to work. So too be honest your playgroup sounds like a bunch of babies.
Given that, it's going to be exactly the same reaction with Approach of the Second Sun. I can smell their baby salty tears already.
You can even use Memory Lapse or Remand to counter the first one, to then cast it again for the win. Supreme Will is also an alternative counterspell you can run to help with Second Sun approach of digging deeper.
I had a look at your deck in signature, and there are plenty of cards to cut for all of the above, because they are just strong cards on their own.
Uhhh, best thing I heard was Demonic Consultation for this. Dig through time et al. are sweet too,
Its 16 mana and two turns to set up. Salt Happens but this is not something I would expect anyone to piss and moan about. If you pulled it off, kudos.
Well first of all, shame on your playgroup. Felidar Sovereign and Test of endurance are not exactly easy win conditions, you have to do a few things to get this to work. So too be honest your playgroup sounds like a bunch of babies.
Given that, it's going to be exactly the same reaction with Approach of the Second Sun. I can smell their baby salty tears already.
Well, they dislike those cards and one of them was very vocal about it, now when I play that deck it takes 20 turns to win or even to loose because of the lack of a "fast" wincon.
You can even use Memory Lapse or Remand to counter the first one, to then cast it again for the win. Supreme Will is also an alternative counterspell you can run to help with Second Sun approach of digging deeper.
Thanks for those suggestions, I dont want to commit the deck to this wincon, I just asked if you see it as a "viable" endgame on its own, like the silver bullet that is wincat or test
I have pu it in my Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis deck as soon as I was able to get my hands on it. However, I have not used the deck much, and when I have, it hasn't come up.
I still think it can be fun and attainable, and my deck loves Azor's Elocutors as a win condition as well. The flavor of winning though a stall is fun in its own right.
It reminds me of when Wedge told his story of going for Divine Intervention and just forcing the game into a draw.
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Thanks for those suggestions, I dont want to commit the deck to this wincon, I just asked if you see it as a "viable" endgame on its own, like the silver bullet that is wincat or test
It's far from a silver bullet. Let's put it this way, the effort you have to put behind winning with Approach is likely to be not much different than what you put in your other wincons, except it's can be done without it being visible to your opponents (well, unless you were forced to reveal it or cast it for the sheer lifegain...). It's also likely any preparation for the card done doesn't outright benefit your other strategies, since Approach is mainly about getting the mana and the card draw and grants lifegain instead of relying on it. I don't count "needing to protect the combo" as a similarity, that honestly just stretches resources (and it isn't infinite if you're keeping card draw-technique for Approach itself).
How do I put it, Approach actually requires quite a degree of commitment, especially when used as a "secondary plan", because its components are perhaps a bit too flexible and there's a good chance you used it for "typical control actions/reactions" (especially if you've not drawn into your Approach that game) and then past some point Approach becomes a whole lot more difficult to assemble (or outright impossible sometimes). It looks good on paper because of the flexibility of its requirements, but in practice needs what I think would be a mix of skill and discipline to maintain the combo's potential usefulness in any given game/timeframe.
Also, "unfair" is very, very subjective. It's easy for someone to complain you winning "suddenly" after 15 turns of seeing nothing (although you've worked behind-the-scenes to assemble it) in the same vein 15 turns of inevitably waiting for a win condition to trigger. I trust you've been here long enough at least to know people just need to not like something to complain about it... and some people don't like losing regardless of method.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Approach is a solid wincon for a W(U/B) deck - blue or black gives you the card draw and/or tutoring to get it back a second time a lot quicker than 7 turns. There are two things that stand out to me about it as a wincon. The first is that it takes up a grand total of one card slot: everything you need to support it (mana and card draw/tutoring) are things you're running anyway (or at least, you should be). There are some particular cards the synergise very well with it (e.g. Remand), but they're not necessary. The second nice thing about it from a perspective of winning is that the only ways for your opponents to stop are is either counterspells, which many decks don't have access to, or killing you, which can often be difficult in the 2-3 turns maximum that they have to do so. Of course, these exact reasons may annoy some opponents, so if they object to your wincons already, it may not be the best alternative.
Still, I'd suggest giving it a try - as I said, you shouldn't need to change your deck much - as see how the rest of your group reacts.
The way rebound works with Approach is actually the opposite of how you want that card to be cast.
The way rebound works with Approach is that it doesn't.
If the Approach cast is not winning you the game, it gets put 7th from the top before rebound can exile it. If it's winning you the game, the game is over. I suppose with something like a Platinum Angel in play, Approach would try to win you the game, do nothing, and then rebound. Then you'd gain 7 life next upkeep and wait to draw it again to try and win again, hopefully after getting rid of the angel.
I tried several wincons such as Felidar Sovereign and Test of endurance , both are great finishers but my playgroup dislike those so I toke them out of my deck.
My playgroup also dislikes infinite turns, etc.
Now my deck has some narrows wincons
1. Sanguine Bond + exquisite blood: because I have not tutors other than enlightened tutor I cant rely on this combo (by the way I never won with this)
2.Aetherflux Reservoir to the face (I have won a couple of games with this one without the help of Sydri, Galvanic Genius wich I have but have not drew in any of my games)
3. Luminarch ascension: I have never ever won with this either, was fun to play but wont last
4. Elspeth, sun's champion: never ever had more than 6 soldiers in the table before she died
5. My last and favourite wincon is having 50 cards in hand with venser's journal and sanguine bond and deleting one at a time (happen once)
All those wincons needs a lot of time, after I tok away test of endurance and Felidar sovereign I won more than 50% of the time but always at turn 15+ (20 or even more) because my wincons needs so much mana or so much life total or just so much time.
I always miss those two cards (felidar and the test) when is turn 15+ people are tired and I am against the last opponent knowing I am going to win because I have a soft lock but it will take some turns.
So I wonder (and this is the topic of the thread) is Approach of the second sun worth playing to end the game fast enought without being perceived as "unfair" like those two other insta-win cards?
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EDH: WUB Alela, Artful provocateur The current updated decklist is here
EDH: GB Hapatra, vizier of poisons The current updated decklist is here
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Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
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"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
The lifegain win cons basically never survive to the untap.
With approach, digging seven cards is easy enough that most players have to simply try to take you out of the game.
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If you are planning on winning with it, that means you are first of all planning on getting it into your hand consistently. If you are able to do that the first time, when it isn't always in your top 7 cards, then it should be easy to do it the second time when you only have to go 7 deep. You should also have more than 7 Mana and be able to respond with a counter to protect it as well.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
The way rebound works with Approach is actually the opposite of how you want that card to be cast.
Given that, it's going to be exactly the same reaction with Approach of the Second Sun. I can smell their baby salty tears already.
On a helpful note however cards that will help this strategy, Dig Through Time, Fact or Fiction, Fortune's Favor, Impulse.
You can even use Memory Lapse or Remand to counter the first one, to then cast it again for the win. Supreme Will is also an alternative counterspell you can run to help with Second Sun approach of digging deeper.
I had a look at your deck in signature, and there are plenty of cards to cut for all of the above, because they are just strong cards on their own.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
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---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Dig through time et al. are sweet too,
Its 16 mana and two turns to set up. Salt Happens but this is not something I would expect anyone to piss and moan about. If you pulled it off, kudos.
Stand corrected. :3
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Well, they dislike those cards and one of them was very vocal about it, now when I play that deck it takes 20 turns to win or even to loose because of the lack of a "fast" wincon.
Thanks for those suggestions, I dont want to commit the deck to this wincon, I just asked if you see it as a "viable" endgame on its own, like the silver bullet that is wincat or test
I would love to read those suggestions, I am always looking for cards to cut in order to add some others
EDH: RWB Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
EDH: UWG Phelddagrif, The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Alela, Artful provocateur The current updated decklist is here
EDH: GB Hapatra, vizier of poisons The current updated decklist is here
I still think it can be fun and attainable, and my deck loves Azor's Elocutors as a win condition as well. The flavor of winning though a stall is fun in its own right.
It reminds me of when Wedge told his story of going for Divine Intervention and just forcing the game into a draw.
It's far from a silver bullet. Let's put it this way, the effort you have to put behind winning with Approach is likely to be not much different than what you put in your other wincons, except it's can be done without it being visible to your opponents (well, unless you were forced to reveal it or cast it for the sheer lifegain...). It's also likely any preparation for the card done doesn't outright benefit your other strategies, since Approach is mainly about getting the mana and the card draw and grants lifegain instead of relying on it. I don't count "needing to protect the combo" as a similarity, that honestly just stretches resources (and it isn't infinite if you're keeping card draw-technique for Approach itself).
How do I put it, Approach actually requires quite a degree of commitment, especially when used as a "secondary plan", because its components are perhaps a bit too flexible and there's a good chance you used it for "typical control actions/reactions" (especially if you've not drawn into your Approach that game) and then past some point Approach becomes a whole lot more difficult to assemble (or outright impossible sometimes). It looks good on paper because of the flexibility of its requirements, but in practice needs what I think would be a mix of skill and discipline to maintain the combo's potential usefulness in any given game/timeframe.
Also, "unfair" is very, very subjective. It's easy for someone to complain you winning "suddenly" after 15 turns of seeing nothing (although you've worked behind-the-scenes to assemble it) in the same vein 15 turns of inevitably waiting for a win condition to trigger. I trust you've been here long enough at least to know people just need to not like something to complain about it... and some people don't like losing regardless of method.
On phasing:
Still, I'd suggest giving it a try - as I said, you shouldn't need to change your deck much - as see how the rest of your group reacts.
If the Approach cast is not winning you the game, it gets put 7th from the top before rebound can exile it. If it's winning you the game, the game is over. I suppose with something like a Platinum Angel in play, Approach would try to win you the game, do nothing, and then rebound. Then you'd gain 7 life next upkeep and wait to draw it again to try and win again, hopefully after getting rid of the angel.
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