Knight of Autumn is interesting because you can gain infinite life with Reveillark combos. Doesn't seem very useful in competitive, but could still be worth more than possible synergies with Slivers.
I have never thought that Reclamation Sage being easier to cast would matter. Maybe Elf synergies?
The Knight has overperformed so far for me, being able to be a sage when you want it, life when you need it, and a beater at all other times is straight Commander gold.
Harmonic Sliver shines when you have access to blue and play clones. Dropping a Phantasmal Image on it and getting 2 Rec Sage triggers is really sweet but shy of that its usually just worse Rec Sage. Knight is technically the best (without blue to consider the sliver) but I really question how often you are going to be using modes other than naturalize. Still though, the opportunity cost of it is really mostly just the price to obtain it. There technically is more mana requirements to cast it but that seems kind of low here.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
With karador I vastly prefer the types that sac themselves, not the least because they let you play your own torpor orb effects, but also because they don't require sac outlets.
The thing about Knight of Autumn is that, in EDH, the modes that aren't Disenchant on a stick are pretty much irrelevant. A few points of life or a mediocre body just don't do much. In the vast majority of decks, I'm not going to play it out unless there's something I need to destroy with it so I'd still run Rec Sage above it - getting colour screwed isn't something that happens often, but even so I think only needing one colour is more important than having two extra irrelevant modes. However, in Karador, you might well be playing it out early, as you can reliably reuse it when you actually need your Disenchant so I suppose the minor upsides are better here.
That said, I'd probably drop Acidic Slime and run both knight and sage. I don't consider hitting a land worth 2 mana, especially as you have a couple of other removal spells that can take out a problematic land.
With karador I vastly prefer the types that sac themselves, not the least because they let you play your own torpor orb effects, but also because they don't require sac outlets.
As you play the deck more you'll see people target your sac outlets.
I have been playing the deck for 7 years, so maybe dial back on the 'as you play more' kinda talk.
I mentioned in my OP other options, including Cautic Caterpillar. As mentioned elsewhere, sometimes, Linvala or Cursed Totem will stop you from activating these creatures. Sometimes you are also going to Green sun's zenith for an answer and not have mana to activate it.
The thing about Knight of Autumn is that, in EDH, the modes that aren't Disenchant on a stick are pretty much irrelevant. A few points of life or a mediocre body just don't do much. In the vast majority of decks, I'm not going to play it out unless there's something I need to destroy with it so I'd still run Rec Sage above it - getting colour screwed isn't something that happens often, but even so I think only needing one colour is more important than having two extra irrelevant modes. However, in Karador, you might well be playing it out early, as you can reliably reuse it when you actually need your Disenchant so I suppose the minor upsides are better here.
That said, I'd probably drop Acidic Slime and run both knight and sage. I don't consider hitting a land worth 2 mana, especially as you have a couple of other removal spells that can take out a problematic land.
Acidic Slime is a win condition, since you can Reveillark combo to destroy all opponents' lands.
Mostly people saying Knight of Autumn is better than Harmonic Sliver. Taking out Harmonic Sliver makes my Necrotic Sliver much worse. I will have to see if I can find a good substitute for the Necrotic Sliver too.
I like to mix him in if your deck is heavier on ETB creatures to give you a disruption / tutor option vs Torpor Orb effects. Its not too often relevant but when it is he is super worth adding.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I have been playing the deck for 7 years, so maybe dial back on the 'as you play more' kinda talk.
I mentioned in my OP other options, including Cautic Caterpillar. As mentioned elsewhere, sometimes, Linvala or Cursed Totem will stop you from activating these creatures. Sometimes you are also going to Green sun's zenith for an answer and not have mana to activate it.
Sorry for the assumption and missing the caterpillar.
GSZ'ing is kind of pointless argument since you can GSZ for pridemage and activate it for the same price as GSZ'ing for Rec sage (and same with caterpillar). Podding is a bit more relevant I guess if you're doing that.
In general I would think that the lifegain mode is somewhat irrelevant in Karador where you're likely to have plenty of incidental lifegain. Probably enough either the downside of GW or upside of sliver would steer you toward either Rec sage or Harmonic sliver respectively.
That said, I don't think it's necessarily obvious you want any of them; the three drop slot is often pretty crowded already (fleshbags, ewit, wood elves, necrotic sliver) and I'd consider just playing the cheaper sac guys and acidic slime. I couldn't make room for a 3-drop artifact/ench removal personally. But I haven't worked on it in a while.
Aura Shards the deck is all about playing all the creatures in it so why not turn them all into that effect, also will bypass certain effects to stop those effects.
Personally, even if Harmonic Sliver works well with Necrotic Sliver, unless you specifically always tutor for them, it still feels like a rather waste of an extra card slot for a "combo" that's "only decent" (by my standards).
Knight of Autumn is basically a better Reclamation Sage, sure the two most glaring factors are the color-cost and that the other modes of Knight would probably be redundant 95% of the time (if not more), but Abzan is one of the combinations I'm less worried about color-fixing and a free bonus is still a free bonus even if its redundant most of the time. There's the third factor of tribes (Elf Shaman vs Dryad Knight), but if you had tribal concerns I doubt the question would even be raised in the first place.
That all being said I don't run any of the 3 - I personally favor Qasali Pridemage for my Karador deck. I could list down the dozens of specific differences as to why I do, but I don't really think that is necessarily here.
Aura Shards the deck is all about playing all the creatures in it so why not turn them all into that effect, also will bypass certain effects to stop those effects.
I used to run Aura Shards. I think I cut it because I rarely wanted to blow up more than 1-2 things, so it was rarely worth the slot.
Personally, even if Harmonic Sliver works well with Necrotic Sliver, unless you specifically always tutor for them, it still feels like a rather waste of an extra card slot for a "combo" that's "only decent" (by my standards).
It's not so much that I tutor for them, but that sometimes I can Reveillark/Sun Titan both of them into play.
I think I need to review my deck to see what incidental life gain there is. Basically, if I have 2-3 other ways to gain life, it is probably unnecessary for me to take out Harmonic Sliver.
Qasali Pridemage is something I have been wrestling with for a while. It is worse with Birthing Pod. I used to play Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker, but since I cut it I really don't need to differentiate between 1 and 2 power.
Pridemage is also worse when you are in a Reveillark loop.
I think the tough part in all this is that I probably could cut Necrotic Sliver.
I don't currently play any of these, but I am going to look for a spot for Knight of Autumn for the infinite life off of Reveilark loops. My meta is mostly casual and gaining infinite life is a solid upside compared to the others.
Harmonic Sliver's only good in sliver tribal or clone decks because it allows me to break everything, same as Aura Shards. (The only difference between them, beyond this tribal difference, is grammatical: Aura Shards' subjunctive "you may destroy" means I don't have to, while the sliver's imperative "destroy" means I must.) I'd probably go for Knight of Autumn. Sure, her other modes are very situational and in the cases where I might use them I can think of a dozen other cards for that synergy (and it's probably not the best deck for those plays anyway: Blood Bond and Ghave, for the record), but they're there, which is nice to have.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I used to run Aura Shards. I think I cut it because I rarely wanted to blow up more than 1-2 things, so it was rarely worth the slot.
It's not so much that I tutor for them, but that sometimes I can Reveillark/Sun Titan both of them into play.
I think I need to review my deck to see what incidental life gain there is. Basically, if I have 2-3 other ways to gain life, it is probably unnecessary for me to take out Harmonic Sliver.
Qasali Pridemage is something I have been wrestling with for a while. It is worse with Birthing Pod. I used to play Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker, but since I cut it I really don't need to differentiate between 1 and 2 power.
Pridemage is also worse when you are in a Reveillark loop.
I think the tough part in all this is that I probably could cut Necrotic Sliver.
I cut Necrotic Sliver and never looked back. Three mana to activate it was a real limitation. I also don't run Harmonic because it's not a may effect.
I used to run Aura Shards. I think I cut it because I rarely wanted to blow up more than 1-2 things, so it was rarely worth the slot.
It's not so much that I tutor for them, but that sometimes I can Reveillark/Sun Titan both of them into play.
I think I need to review my deck to see what incidental life gain there is. Basically, if I have 2-3 other ways to gain life, it is probably unnecessary for me to take out Harmonic Sliver.
Qasali Pridemage is something I have been wrestling with for a while. It is worse with Birthing Pod. I used to play Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker, but since I cut it I really don't need to differentiate between 1 and 2 power.
Pridemage is also worse when you are in a Reveillark loop.
I think the tough part in all this is that I probably could cut Necrotic Sliver.
I cut Necrotic Sliver and never looked back. Three mana to activate it was a real limitation. I also don't run Harmonic because it's not a may effect.
I think I may as well swap Necrotic Sliver for Assassin's Trophy, and swap Harmonic Sliver for Knight of Autumn.
Funnily enough, I never knew Harmonic was not a may ability.
Speaking for only my Karador deck, but despite the small number of ways I have to gain life, I also run a fair number of ways to lose it. So although I wouldn't anticipate using the life gain mode all that often, I can definitely appreciate having that option.
The issue comes up when you try to put slivers in other decks. I guess Plague Sliver can go in other decks, but it's really the only one. And it's just "Juzám Djinn that also hurts sliver players".
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I am wondering which Reclamation Sage is best for the deck.
Harmonic Sliver
Reclamation Sage
Knight of Autumn
Since it is so easy to tutor these cards, and because you're possibly playing Acidic Slime, caustic caterpillar, beast within, assassin's trophy, etc, I would only play one of these. I have Necrotic Sliver in my deck, so I have been playing Harmonic Sliver over Reclamation Sage.
Knight of Autumn is interesting because you can gain infinite life with Reveillark combos. Doesn't seem very useful in competitive, but could still be worth more than possible synergies with Slivers.
I have never thought that Reclamation Sage being easier to cast would matter. Maybe Elf synergies?
What are your thoughts?
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
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[Modern] Allies
Viridian Zealot for example.
As you play the deck more you'll see people target your sac outlets.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
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Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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That said, I'd probably drop Acidic Slime and run both knight and sage. I don't consider hitting a land worth 2 mana, especially as you have a couple of other removal spells that can take out a problematic land.
It's a good idea I think to have one of each (so you can beat Linvala and cursed totem) but yeah pridemage is the best overall.
I like rec sage over Knight because it's easier to cast. Taxing mana symbols is a real thing that happens.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I have been playing the deck for 7 years, so maybe dial back on the 'as you play more' kinda talk.
I mentioned in my OP other options, including Cautic Caterpillar. As mentioned elsewhere, sometimes, Linvala or Cursed Totem will stop you from activating these creatures. Sometimes you are also going to Green sun's zenith for an answer and not have mana to activate it.
Acidic Slime is a win condition, since you can Reveillark combo to destroy all opponents' lands.
Mostly people saying Knight of Autumn is better than Harmonic Sliver. Taking out Harmonic Sliver makes my Necrotic Sliver much worse. I will have to see if I can find a good substitute for the Necrotic Sliver too.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I like to mix him in if your deck is heavier on ETB creatures to give you a disruption / tutor option vs Torpor Orb effects. Its not too often relevant but when it is he is super worth adding.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Sorry for the assumption and missing the caterpillar.
GSZ'ing is kind of pointless argument since you can GSZ for pridemage and activate it for the same price as GSZ'ing for Rec sage (and same with caterpillar). Podding is a bit more relevant I guess if you're doing that.
In general I would think that the lifegain mode is somewhat irrelevant in Karador where you're likely to have plenty of incidental lifegain. Probably enough either the downside of GW or upside of sliver would steer you toward either Rec sage or Harmonic sliver respectively.
That said, I don't think it's necessarily obvious you want any of them; the three drop slot is often pretty crowded already (fleshbags, ewit, wood elves, necrotic sliver) and I'd consider just playing the cheaper sac guys and acidic slime. I couldn't make room for a 3-drop artifact/ench removal personally. But I haven't worked on it in a while.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Knight of Autumn is basically a better Reclamation Sage, sure the two most glaring factors are the color-cost and that the other modes of Knight would probably be redundant 95% of the time (if not more), but Abzan is one of the combinations I'm less worried about color-fixing and a free bonus is still a free bonus even if its redundant most of the time. There's the third factor of tribes (Elf Shaman vs Dryad Knight), but if you had tribal concerns I doubt the question would even be raised in the first place.
That all being said I don't run any of the 3 - I personally favor Qasali Pridemage for my Karador deck. I could list down the dozens of specific differences as to why I do, but I don't really think that is necessarily here.
I used to run Aura Shards. I think I cut it because I rarely wanted to blow up more than 1-2 things, so it was rarely worth the slot.
It's not so much that I tutor for them, but that sometimes I can Reveillark/Sun Titan both of them into play.
I think I need to review my deck to see what incidental life gain there is. Basically, if I have 2-3 other ways to gain life, it is probably unnecessary for me to take out Harmonic Sliver.
Qasali Pridemage is something I have been wrestling with for a while. It is worse with Birthing Pod. I used to play Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker, but since I cut it I really don't need to differentiate between 1 and 2 power.
Pridemage is also worse when you are in a Reveillark loop.
I think the tough part in all this is that I probably could cut Necrotic Sliver.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I currently play Qasali pridemage as my only creature based disenchant. I have many other flexible removal including Archon of Justice, Maelstrome Pulse, Anguished Unmaking, and Vindicate.
Harmonic Sliver's only good in sliver tribal or clone decks because it allows me to break everything, same as Aura Shards. (The only difference between them, beyond this tribal difference, is grammatical: Aura Shards' subjunctive "you may destroy" means I don't have to, while the sliver's imperative "destroy" means I must.) I'd probably go for Knight of Autumn. Sure, her other modes are very situational and in the cases where I might use them I can think of a dozen other cards for that synergy (and it's probably not the best deck for those plays anyway: Blood Bond and Ghave, for the record), but they're there, which is nice to have.
On phasing:
I cut Necrotic Sliver and never looked back. Three mana to activate it was a real limitation. I also don't run Harmonic because it's not a may effect.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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I think I may as well swap Necrotic Sliver for Assassin's Trophy, and swap Harmonic Sliver for Knight of Autumn.
Funnily enough, I never knew Harmonic was not a may ability.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
It's not something that comes up a lot. Slivers, it doesn't generally matter, most of the time: You want mana fixing? Gemhide Sliver, Manaweft Sliver. You want anthems? Muscle Sliver, Predatory Sliver, Sinew Sliver, Might Sliver, Bonesplitter Sliver, Megantic Sliver, Sliver Legion. Tutors? Sliver Overlord, Homing Sliver. Card draw? Synapse Sliver, Dormant Sliver, Mnemonic Sliver. Removal? Harmonic Sliver, Necrotic Sliver, Psionic Sliver, Acidic Sliver. Protection from removal? Crystalline Sliver, Hibernation Sliver. And that's just the beginning. You can even steal opponents' creatures with Sliver Overlord and Amoeboid Changeling. Slivers are, after all, "the end of evolution".
The only time it comes up, I guess, is when you have Wild Pair (All slivers have square stats by default, and you'll notice the only anthem sliver that doesn't add square stats I mentioned adds +2/+0.), Brass Herald, Coat of Arms, Vanquisher's Banner, Urza's Incubator or Door of Destinies. Or some other "any creature type" artifact. Or, I guess, The Immortal Sun.
The issue comes up when you try to put slivers in other decks. I guess Plague Sliver can go in other decks, but it's really the only one. And it's just "Juzám Djinn that also hurts sliver players".
On phasing: