With me, there is only one way to stop Teferi. One single category of cards. Counters. The countermagics are the only possible way to stop my combo before I can finish it to assemble it and be truly invincible (since I can cast all my deck in a single turn at that point). Only blue can truly beat blue, because blue can beat, thanks of the counters, any other color of Magic, including itself. So all things ends that whoever got in hand the more counters and the mana open, win. And you know what? Selenia and Crovax can't play counters, but Teferi can and will.
Counters are the only things that would stop my invincible lock right before is about to happend (because after I manage to do it, its too late and nobody can't do anything anymore...and not only not killing my general).
Dude, re read my previous posts because I already covered that point. Literally. Re-read all, and after that you can come back and tell me where are still the flaws of the combo.
I beg to differ, sir. Mine, after all pieces are assembled together it is perfect indeed,and I already proved why
Haha. Oh man. Where do I even begin?
For roughly the last two years or so I've studied combos like these to the point where I likely know more about them than anyone else alive. That statement should shock you. That statement is bold. If you feel incredulous, I can't fault you for that, but the proof is in the pudding, and all my credentials (or, at least, as many as I could muster) can be accessed from my signature. When it comes to this sort of stuff, I'm not exaggerating. I know a damn lot.
So, having said all that, I'm going to be blunt. Your belief that an inescapable lock can be created with blue cards alone (and that the only way to stop your version is by preemptively countering certain cards) is incredibly naïve. Like, you're not even scratching the surface. Trying to make a soft lock like yours function as a hard lock isn't going to work unless you introduce some insanely stringent parameters (in which case, why bother?).
Granted, I will say this. It isn't particularly difficult to create an inescapable hard lock. You only need to presume that 1.) all of your opponents' cards are in exile, 2.) that their mana pools are empty, 3.) that they don't control any permanents/emblems/etc., and 4.) that you control an Omen Machine or similar such card that will prevent players from losing the game. That's it. (And that's generously ignoring rule 104.4b.) Given those parameters, a hard lock can be built out of virtually anything.
Now, does any of that matter? No, not particularly. No one really cares if you can make an inescapable hard lock like the one described above because it's obvious why no one will be able to escape from it after it's been assembled. Without any tools with which to work with, there's no exercise to be had in the first place. That's why soft locks are much more interesting than hard locks. By substituting parameters with certain cards, it's possible to create the illusion of freedom by giving opponents the tools with which to attempt an escape whether or not those tools can actually be used to do so.
From your posts, it isn't clear to me what your combo's parameters are (or even what cards they entail for certain). If you would like to explain all of these details at length, I would be happy to dismantle your soft lock for you, but I'm not willing to exhaust myself doing so if you aren't first willing to put in the effort needed to explain it with sufficient detail. I'm not going to become the victim of moving goalposts.
doesn't enough mana + bane of the living just kills everything no matther what?
I've actually found a way to circumvent Bane of the Living (sort of) by permanently turning relevant creatures into noncreature enchantments without causing them to lose their abilities. You can find an elaboration in my signature.
If you are playing against any random blue mages, they will like very much to bother to bounce your generals and then counter them all day likes there's no tommorrow. That's very practical too.
At least Teferi can stand a counterwar. But Selenia and Crovax, I'm afraid not.
Generally that's going to be a 2-for-1 if it's already on-board. If we're talking Phelddagrif, then a 3-for-1 or worse (unless it's 1v1, then it's a 1-for-1). Not exactly appealing unless you're already drowning in card advantage, or the bounce commander is the biggest threat on the board (which is usually pretty unlikely).
And of course one could always run cavern, though I haven't bothered in my Phelddagrif deck. No one bothers to counter him often enough to justify running a wastes.
I believe your lock can be broken by casting Child of Alara from the command zone with cavern, then sacking it to phyrexian tower with a split second spell on the stack. Of course if you use a statis/kismet lock they won't be able to get an untapped cavern, though.
Better to make it impossible for your opponents to do anything.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I'm afraid you didn't follow the entire discussion. Re-read it please. I already explained that I would just play an overloaded Cyclonic Rift right before I cast Teferi, and after I manage to cast the Omnitell combo, I already said what are the cards that makes for the perfect lock even if I give to my opponents all the turns of this world and all the magic cards in existance to deal with it. Counters are the only things that would stop my invincible lock right before is about to happend (because after I manage to do it, its too late and nobody can't do anything anymore...and not only not killing my general).
You're setting up your combo using Show and Tell. Every color has uncounterable ways to disrupt it as part of your setup.
Hell, we're talking Cyclonic Rift -> Show & Tell Omniscience -> Enter the Infinite, right?
Null Chamber would actually be pretty good, because if A is doing the Omnitell, B can drop Null Chamber and choose C to make the second card name pick, locking out two of A's lock pieces instead of one.
Now, if we are talking, like the OP seems to suggest, of any opponent interaction that can disrupt the protection only after is finally assembled (exactly like he asked about his combo), then we have no doubts. The OP combo is fallacious and mine is the epythome of elegance (because I stick with only one color) and perfection (because is truly unbreakable). And that alone could end the thread.
Since you seem to have ignored my post entirely, I'll say it again. Your combo, once assembled, is not unbreakable like you believe it to be. If you clearly spell out all of your parameters, all of your combo pieces, and the way in which you assemble them all, I will prove to you that your combo is not as airtight as you think it is.
Now that I'm looking at the OP, it's legitimately confusing.
Narset, enlightened master - ok, I guess that's either just the commander you're building, or it's specifically as an example because it has hexproof and fits the colors. Sure.
Cloak of invisibility - I'm guessing so it can't be blocked? But why cloak of invisibility? Why not something without a downside, like aqueous form or something. I guess cloak gives extra protection while it's phased out...but that doesn't really seem like it counts. Anyway that still seems kind of unnecessary to being "unkillable". As long as you just avoid combat, it's unkillable from combat damage without any extra cards. But fine, let's say you have to attack. Even then, you're still dead to wall of swords or whatever. Why Cloak of Invisibility out of all the unblockable-giving cards?
Indestructibility - ok, sure, indestructible + hexproof. Got it. Relatively easy to answer, but sure. But wait, why does it matter if she's unblockable then, if blocking her doesn't kill her? And if she needs to get through (despite that not being mentioned anywhere), cloak still lets her be blocked just fine by walls.
mycosynth lattice - why do we want to turn everything into artifacts, exactly?
Darksteel forge - Wait, to make everything indestructible? But then why do we have the enchantment indestructibility if all our stuff is indestructible? And now cloak of invisibility is even more pointless to making the commander unkillable?
Fountain watch - Now we're giving everything shroud? Why? Our commander was already hexproof! I guess it makes sense if you need to protect your darksteel forge from dust to dust or whatever. But it's kind of silly given how much other stuff we're vulnerable to.
shalai, voice of plenty - wait, ok now this is definitely totally unnecessary, plus it's out of CI for narset. She already has hexproof! We don't have any other creatures! Everything already has shroud! And Shalai doesn't give itself hexproof. We've accomplished literally nothing by adding this card except putting 3 power in the air and forcing us rely on either our opponents playing specific cards for us to steal, or for our opponents not to understand the finer points of the CI rule.
conqueror's flail - why is this relevant? Other players can still cast whatever they want on their turns, it doesn't really restrict anything that might disrupt the board state, other than that they can't do it on this particular turn.
Somehow, despite having 8 cards, we've accomplished exactly the same in terms of unkillable-ness as if we had 3 - darksteel forge, fountain watch, and mycosynth lattice (and, I suppose, a few extra permanents to sacrifice first to protect the "combo"). I guess then you also need a commander to protect, but it could be anything that has white in its CI, as hexproof is irrelevant while it has shroud.
how about that instead of using Show and Tell I just delay my combo to try to straight off hardcast the Omniscience in Enter? In that case, with the same scenario (the empty board state because of Cyclonic Rift), opponents could only do some weird activated ability to try to disrupt omniscience (since Teferi is also in play). But since, when Omniscience hit the battlefield and resolve, the stack is again empty, I have the right to put as the active player any spells or ability and I can choose to put the Enter of Infinite in the stack anyway. So, no matter what, I will draw all my deck anyway at that point and Omniscience will assure me to cast all the spells free to protect me for any remaining nasty I guess.
Sure, but now the Stasis is going to be problematic. You need to use Mind Over Matter to keep your blue mana going to pay its upkeep, plus 2 and untap Scepter per use of Trickbind. Plus, most likely you want to tap down any new lands your opponents play. Worst-case that's 1 card discarded on your turn plus 4 cards discarded on each opponent's turn, which is not something you can keep up forever. And you really need to be able to Trickbind those Strip Mines or w/e to protect your blue mana. And you can't afford to let someone even resolve the cast trigger of Genesis Hydra for X=1, because they might hit Pithing Needle to prevent Mind Over Matter or Scepter from being used any more. At a 4-player table you're looking at hypothetically discarding 13 cards per turn cycle. And it seems your only way to close out the game with the presented board state is two 3/4 creatures, so another 2 cards per turn cycle to attack with them. (Actually, why do you even have Arcanis if you've got Omen Machine and a resolved EtI?)
The more well-known hard lock is here (presented as a "puzzle", but it has no actual solution; Genesis Hydra was an answer to it when it was released, but then the "puzzle" added Meddling Mage to stop it), and while it uses Erayo Essence (banned in Commander), you can substitute the emblem of Jace, Unraveller of Secrets. The full list for that lock would then be:
Purphoros, God of the Forge (all this actually does is put a clock on the game with Progenitor Mimic; can be removed if you just want an unkillable board)
The more well-known hard lock is here (presented as a "puzzle", but it has no actual solution; Genesis Hydra was an answer to it when it was released, but then the "puzzle" added Meddling Mage to stop it), and while it uses Erayo Essence (banned in Commander), you can substitute the emblem of Jace, Unraveller of Secrets. The full list for that lock would then be:
Purphoros, God of the Forge (all this actually does is put a clock on the game with Progenitor Mimic; can be removed if you just want an unkillable board)
So, the combo Lithl presented is pretty interesting. It gives the opponent a lot of freedom in that they can still play lands, cast spells, and activate abilities. Having to start from zero is a pretty debilitating restriction though. Altered Ego and Sphinx of the Final Word would be solutions if they were able to come down before there were too many Elesh Norns. Unfortunately, those get out of hand pretty fast, rendering any activated or static abilities from the few creatures that can make it onto the battlefield fairly moot. No uncounterable noncreature permanent exists right now that can make other spells uncounterable either. Cards with trigger on cast abilities would be useful here if any of them actually had relevant effects. The duplicate, emerge, and conspire cards are all duds, and storm and cascade are obviously no-gos due to Eidolon of Rhetoric.
While the parameters forbid it, this combo can actually be undone in Commander via Genesis Storm. Derevi, Empyrial Tactician can also undo the combo by untapping a Boseiju, Who Shelters All or similar such card. All in all, a pretty neat combo. I don't think it's very future proof considering there's so many different ways to attack it (uncounterable spells, spells with cast on trigger abilities, static abilities of lands, triggered abilities of lands, activated abilities of lands without a tap cost, activated abilities of cards in hand, etc.) that Wizards will inevitably print something new that disrupts it.
Also, the inclusion of Meddling Mage is incredibly lame here. Nothing screams "legitimate solution" more than when a designer lazily hard codes an answer like that.
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Also, the inclusion of Meddling Mage is incredibly lame here. Nothing screams "legitimate solution" more than when a designer lazily hard codes an answer like that.
Yes, it's a pretty old not-actually-a-puzzle, much older than Genesis Hydra, and has been updated over time.
For a lot of locks like this, figuring out a way to get Kederekt Leviathan onto the battlefield is the fastest way to break it apart.
[quote from="arrogantAxolotl »" url="/forums/the-game/commander-edh/800506-unkillable-commander?comment=52"]For a lot of locks like this, figuring out a way to get Kederekt Leviathan onto the battlefield is the fastest way to break it apart.
Eh, for a lot of the shoddy ones, sure. Any lock worth its salt is going to include Torpor Orb though, not to mention graveyard protection via Rest in Peace, Yixlid Jailer, etc.
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Second, I feel too lazy to repeat all the passages that makes Teferi truly unkillable, and anyway I manage meanwhile to build-up a much more elegant and less clunkier version of the invincibile lock.
Too lazy? Or too unwilling to expose your precious baby to harsh reality?
And here you go the perfect and unwinnable lock after you manage to set-up all the pieces together. Only 5 cards and always staying in monoblue. I don't think we can do something more elegant than this.
Seriously? This is it? What an absolute joke, dude. All I need to dismantle this lock are lands. By putting five Snow-Covered Mountains and a Mouth of Ronom onto the battlefield off Omen Machine's triggered ability, I can kill Teferi, and then go from there. Hell, I don't even need to do that. I could just kill Teferi's controller with two Islands and a Faerie Conclave. And all of that is coming from an extremely restricting position in which I'm denied permanents, a graveyard, and a hand. You're not anywhere close.
And sure, could you add cards to your combo to stop the solutions I've presented? Absolutely. But that's just the thing. I've only presented you with two solutions. There are way more solutions than that. I didn't even have to get creative about it.
And about pre-existing Emblems, this combo can ignore like 99% of them. The only emblem that stop the combo in the first place is the Narset Trascendent emblem, and could be mildly annoying the few ones that makes tokens from nothing, but aside that the rest of them are completely irrelevant after the lock is set up.
And again, you're dead wrong. A Tezzeret emblem would completely undo you. A Last Hope emblem would be more than just "mildly annoying." It would kill you. I didn't even have to scour the list of available emblems to know that what you're saying here is wrong.
Man, it sure does your nickname fitting you, isn't.
Whenever folks espouse bull***** like you do, I'm going to call you out on it because I genuinely know what I'm talking about, and I refuse to let it go unsaid that what you're claiming is absolute nonsense.
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Oh right, good point. Then let's add also a Land Equilibrium and we solve also that problem. There. Now are six cards, but still elegant, since I'm still monocolor and those are anyway fewer pieces that the OP bringed together to build his fallacious unkillable general.
Good point indeed. And now you're moving the goalposts. This is exactly why I asked you to clearly demonstrate your combo in the first place because now, after having literally just disproved your "perfect and unbreakable" combo, you're having to double back and revise it. Huh. That's strange. It's almost as if your combo was never perfect or unbreakable in the first place like I've been saying this whole time. How peculiar.
And your combo is still breakable even with the inclusion of Land Equilibrium. What if I have a Roiling Horror or Benalish Commander suspended with a million time counters on them? Those will kill you. How about if I possessed any phased out permanents prior to my first turn? You wouldn't be able to Cyclonic Rift those. And what about Kheru Spellsnatcher? What if I previously Spelljacked some card, and the card could still be cast from exile without paying its mana cost? You don't seem to understand just how wrong you are about this. And I didn't even touch on emblems.
So, now what are you going to do now that I've unraveled your lock again? Are you going to move the goalposts even further? Maybe you want to make the ridiculous restrictions you've given me even more restrictive by also removing my library? Or my exile? I'm fed up with you, man. Just admit the fact that you were wrong about this. Anyone can make a "perfect lock" given just an Omen Machine if the pre-existing restrictions are absurd enough as I pointed out here. Your lock isn't built as well as you believe it to be.
No dude, I simply have a life outside of this forum and the way you put this flame against me is fairly annoying honestly.
Is it annoying? Because what I find annoying are condescending attitudes from people who think they know what they're talking about but really don't have a clue and are too juvenile to admit it when evidence floats to the surface.
But since you really want to hear what was this original combo, here you go:
Eot opponents for overload Cyclonic Rift, then starts my turn with Teferi, Omniscience, Enter the Infinite (I won't use Show and Tell since it could give unnecessary troubles to resolve).
So you got at the point all your deck in hand and cast everything for free, so that makes magicalchristmasland a viable reality.
Now:
Cast Teferi, Temporal Archamge[/card, The Chain Vail to start the infinite PW activation combo. Get the Jace, Reveler of Secrets emblem
Cast Mind Over Matter and then Stasis. You got all the deck in hand, so it's not a problem to tap and untap an endless amounts of times to make sure all permanents opponents got will be tappes ASAP (of present and future) and untap what you want all the times you want, mainly for the following reasons:
- Attacking with Teferi, the legend
- Making work the Teferi combo if somehow the Teferi PW minus ability itself isn't enough.
- but most of all, to make sure to make at istant speed any amount of endless casting of Trickind imprinted on a Isochron Scepter, so you'll always stop basically any ability possible at any time.
But how I will be sure to make a non-finite amount of triggers of Mind Over Matter at any time of the game? I will absolutely have cards to discard each time, and what should I do for the next turns anyway where I could eventually run out of gas? That's why I will cast also Arcanis, the Omnipotent, the Thousand-Year Elixir and the original Kozilek or Ulamog to make sure that no matter at what speed I discard the cards, I will always have the chance to reshuffle at any time any amount of graveyard in the deck and draw again thanks to Arcanis to make this a really endless draw and discard engine.
Cast obviously Omen Machine and Knowledge Pool to give Teferi a sense to prefer him as general.
And pass the turn.
At this point, in this scenario we have the opponents which can have all the cards of this world in hand, graveyard, exile, preminence abilities, emblems (except the famous Narset Transcendent of course) or lands to put on battlefield without ever gaining a single benefit from it, because every spell will be nullified either from the Knowledge Pool+ Teferi or Jace Emblem and every single activated or triggered ability from lands or other sources will be always shut down thanks to the Stasis and Isochron Scepter combo, working in conjunction with Mind Over Matter
There are several ways to unravel this, but I need a bit of time to put them together since they're quite convoluted. Stay tuned. I'll have a solution to come.
Ok, so I recognize then that the clunkiest lock is stil the best one and seems really hard to make up a more elegant version.
Take your time to solve it I'm not in a hurry
Ignoring the fact that your Omen Machine doesn't play nice with your Arcanis and that you still need to find some way to fuel Mind Over Matter endlessly (evidence that you haven't actually thought this through and really are just spitballing here), I'll nonetheless grant you bottomless cards with which to activate Mind Over Matter because it's not going to matter anyway.
Suppose I control the following cards since they are all lands and therefore immune to the prior Cyclonic Rift:
None of the above listed cards initially interfere with any part of your combo's ability to function, and therefore none of them ought to be precluded as legitimate solutions. A Cyclonic Rift still happened. Nothing has shroud/hexproof and can still be tapped at the mercy of Mind Over Matter. I'm just beginning this exercise with these lands in play.
Begin by sacrificing two saprolings on your turn to Utopia Mycon, adding WW to your mana pool. This is a mana ability and cannot be responded to as it does not use the stack. Proceed to use this mana to turn your face down Grand Abolisher face up. This is a special action and also cannot be responded to as it does not use the stack. With Grand Abolisher now face up on the battlefield, Isochron Scepter and Mind Over Matter can no longer activate their abilities.
From there, sacrifice Oblivion Ring to Utopia Mycon. Oblivion Ring's second ability will trigger, returning Kederekt Leviathan from exile to the battlefield. Kederekt Leviathan will then trigger his first ability when he enters the battlefield and return all other nonland permanents to their owners' hands, dismantling the combo.
Let me know if I overlooked something by accident. Everything appears to check out from where I'm standing.
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I don't really get why you guys are going for such convoluted combos. Possessed portal + wheel and some way to generate resources means opponents can't draw their way out of the lock. So as long as you can counter their answer they currently have (which is pretty easy with counter spells) they are locked out of the game permanently.
In that case is simple, just add Sunder to the cards to cast.
So
- Omen Machine
+ Sunder
Of course, we talked about breaking the combo only after is assembled not meanwhile or before (which we know is too easy to do in endless ways), so now try to break it in a scenario where you can indeed draw all the cards you want, but you are starting with zero lands with a Stasis and Mind Over Matter combo in play (or even better, let's add also a Frozen Aether just to be sure, since I'm playing the Omnitell combo anyway).
Well, provided I previously Spelljacked a Play of the Game or similar such card earlier in the game, I can disrupt the combo by casting that from exile after baiting out the Jace emblem with something like Welding Jar.
I don't really get why you guys are going for such convoluted combos. Possessed portal + wheel and some way to generate resources means opponents can't draw their way out of the lock. So as long as you can counter their answer they currently have (which is pretty easy with counter spells) they are locked out of the game permanently.
I don't understand what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that a Possessed Portal plus a Wheel of Fortune and some other resource generating card will create an inescapable hard lock? Because, if so, you're way off. I mean, all anyone would need to do to disrupt that is destroy the Possessed Portal with some kind of activated ability (like Gorilla Shaman). That, or kill the Possessed Portal's controller.
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Well, provided I previously Spelljacked a Play of the Game or similar such card earlier in the game, I can disrupt the combo by casting that from exile after baiting out the Jace emblem with something like Welding Jar.
In case you're not satisfied by this answer alone, here's another answer that doesn't require Spelljack shenanigans.
Play Dryad Arbor for the turn. Cast Welding Jar, triggering Jace's emblem and Knowledge Pool. (Whether the Jar is ultimately countered by the emblem or exiled by the Pool doesn't really matter.) Next, discard Elvish and Simian Spirit Guide to flashback Acorn Harvest. How Acorn Harvest initially got into the graveyard is unimportant. Perhaps it was always there from the beginning. Perhaps it was discarded to hand size after Cyclonic Rift was overloaded. Maybe you got above the limit by naturally drawing a card each turn, discarded a Grave-Troll, and then filled your grave from there. It doesn't matter.
At this point, you can dismantle the combo in a number of ways as you now have 11 mana in any combination of colors with which you can use to cast instant and sorcery cards. (14 if you decide to flashback Increasing Savagery.) Play of the Game is, again, fairly straightforward.
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At this point, I'm going to take my leave. I could take a stab at worming my way through this new combo, but I'm not particularly interested in doing that since my goal from the beginning has been to prove that the combo you've been bragging about post after post is not the perfect, unbreakable machine like you've been claiming it is. And I've proved that. Twice now. With both your simplified and expanded combos, even after you made revisions to them.
Do you think even this is breakable even considering the weirdest previous board-state possible?
Well, here's the thing. You're using Cyclonic Rift and Sunder to justify the precondition that opponents can't control permanents. (And there are other similar "holes," but I won't get into those right now.) And sure, in practice, Cyclonic Rift and Sunder tend to get the job done, but if you're trying to build an unbreakable lock, those cards create vulnerabilities because there's nothing about how those two cards interact that prevent opponents from controlling permanents after they've been cast.
For example, imagine if an opponent presumed control of some card that was enchanted by Song of the Dryads prior to your assembly. When you cast Cyclonic Rift, Song of the Dryads would return to its owner's hand, but not the card it was enchanting. Then, once Sunder resolves, all lands would return to their owners' hands, but not the card Song of the Dryads was originally enchanting because that card is no longer a land. Similarly, a card like Thragtusk leaves a 3/3 beast token behind whenever it leaves the battlefield. Thragtusk in and of itself isn't a problem, but that doesn't mean some other card couldn't be because the way you justify your precondition that opponents can't possess permanents isn't rock solid.
This is why a page ago I said that trying to keep a lock like this confined to a single color is incredibly naïve. If you only have one color to operate with, you're probably not going to find the tools you need to adequately justify your preconditions. And sure, you don't need to justify those preconditions. You could just say, hey, this lock only works provided you don't control any permanents, and that would fly, but I think you'd also feel like that isn't really satisfying since those are such narrow parameters. That's a lot like saying, hey, you're trapped in a room, and you need this key to get out of it, so try and find the key in your room that unlocks the door, but you know full well that there's no exercise to be had in the first place since the key you need is outside the room to begin with.
And again, it isn't like you need any colors at all to make an unbreakable lock. Omen Machine will do that all by itself if the preconditions are absurd enough, as I've mentioned twice before, so arbitrarily limiting your colors only translates into having to implement more constraining preconditions.
But to answer your question, given no board state at all, I'm not sure. It appears as though there's no solution, but looks can be deceiving, as I've already illustrated with your previous examples. I certainly can't think of anything off the top of my head that will work on an empty board, but that doesn't mean no answer exists, only that no answer is apparent. I've certainly built locks that looked unbreakable only to discover a solution months later.
(P.S: you thought that trying to break the perfect hardlock in monoblue would be boring, but I'm actually enjoying the challenge and finding out this thought exercise quite exciting. )
I'm glad you're finding it exciting because that shows you're more interested in finding truth than you are winning a petty argument.
EDIT: I just realized that seems that even stuff like Stasis or Frozen Aether is unnecessary, I can tap and counter and exile the uncounterable things at any time and any amount of them at any time anyway.
If you remove Stasis, phased out permanents are going to give you a bad time.
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gaining infinite counters for Decree of Silence seems much more effective and definitive
I recommend re-reading Decree of Silence. It starts at 0 counters and counts up, sacrificing itself when it hits 3 or more. It doesn't start at three and count down, sacrificing itself when it hits zero.
For roughly the last two years or so I've studied combos like these to the point where I likely know more about them than anyone else alive. That statement should shock you. That statement is bold. If you feel incredulous, I can't fault you for that, but the proof is in the pudding, and all my credentials (or, at least, as many as I could muster) can be accessed from my signature. When it comes to this sort of stuff, I'm not exaggerating. I know a damn lot.
So, having said all that, I'm going to be blunt. Your belief that an inescapable lock can be created with blue cards alone (and that the only way to stop your version is by preemptively countering certain cards) is incredibly naïve. Like, you're not even scratching the surface. Trying to make a soft lock like yours function as a hard lock isn't going to work unless you introduce some insanely stringent parameters (in which case, why bother?).
Granted, I will say this. It isn't particularly difficult to create an inescapable hard lock. You only need to presume that 1.) all of your opponents' cards are in exile, 2.) that their mana pools are empty, 3.) that they don't control any permanents/emblems/etc., and 4.) that you control an Omen Machine or similar such card that will prevent players from losing the game. That's it. (And that's generously ignoring rule 104.4b.) Given those parameters, a hard lock can be built out of virtually anything.
Now, does any of that matter? No, not particularly. No one really cares if you can make an inescapable hard lock like the one described above because it's obvious why no one will be able to escape from it after it's been assembled. Without any tools with which to work with, there's no exercise to be had in the first place. That's why soft locks are much more interesting than hard locks. By substituting parameters with certain cards, it's possible to create the illusion of freedom by giving opponents the tools with which to attempt an escape whether or not those tools can actually be used to do so.
From your posts, it isn't clear to me what your combo's parameters are (or even what cards they entail for certain). If you would like to explain all of these details at length, I would be happy to dismantle your soft lock for you, but I'm not willing to exhaust myself doing so if you aren't first willing to put in the effort needed to explain it with sufficient detail. I'm not going to become the victim of moving goalposts.
EDIT: I've actually found a way to circumvent Bane of the Living (sort of) by permanently turning relevant creatures into noncreature enchantments without causing them to lose their abilities. You can find an elaboration in my signature.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
And of course one could always run cavern, though I haven't bothered in my Phelddagrif deck. No one bothers to counter him often enough to justify running a wastes.
I believe your lock can be broken by casting Child of Alara from the command zone with cavern, then sacking it to phyrexian tower with a split second spell on the stack. Of course if you use a statis/kismet lock they won't be able to get an untapped cavern, though.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Mutilate /thread
Better to make it impossible for your opponents to do anything.
On phasing:
Okay, I Show & Tell Meddling Mage/Gideon's Intervention/Nevermore/Null Chamber naming Enter the Infinite. Or Archon of Valor's Reach naming sorcery. Or Gaddock Teeg. Or Iona, Shield of Emeria naming blue. Or Omen Machine. Or Arcane Laboratory/Rule of Law/Eidolon of Rhetoric since you need to cast a bunch of spells to set up the lock. Or Sanctum Prelate choosing 12. Or Void Winnower. Or Ward of Bones. Or any of the huge number of creatures that can destroy an enchantment on ETB or with an ativated ability that doesn't require t. Even Ethersworn Canonist probably screws thing up enough to give the table multiple turns to deal with it.
Null Chamber would actually be pretty good, because if A is doing the Omnitell, B can drop Null Chamber and choose C to make the second card name pick, locking out two of A's lock pieces instead of one.
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Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
How are you running Shalai in a Narset deck? Narset has a Jeskai CI, and Shalai contains green in her CI.
Narset, enlightened master - ok, I guess that's either just the commander you're building, or it's specifically as an example because it has hexproof and fits the colors. Sure.
Cloak of invisibility - I'm guessing so it can't be blocked? But why cloak of invisibility? Why not something without a downside, like aqueous form or something. I guess cloak gives extra protection while it's phased out...but that doesn't really seem like it counts. Anyway that still seems kind of unnecessary to being "unkillable". As long as you just avoid combat, it's unkillable from combat damage without any extra cards. But fine, let's say you have to attack. Even then, you're still dead to wall of swords or whatever. Why Cloak of Invisibility out of all the unblockable-giving cards?
Indestructibility - ok, sure, indestructible + hexproof. Got it. Relatively easy to answer, but sure. But wait, why does it matter if she's unblockable then, if blocking her doesn't kill her? And if she needs to get through (despite that not being mentioned anywhere), cloak still lets her be blocked just fine by walls.
mycosynth lattice - why do we want to turn everything into artifacts, exactly?
Darksteel forge - Wait, to make everything indestructible? But then why do we have the enchantment indestructibility if all our stuff is indestructible? And now cloak of invisibility is even more pointless to making the commander unkillable?
Fountain watch - Now we're giving everything shroud? Why? Our commander was already hexproof! I guess it makes sense if you need to protect your darksteel forge from dust to dust or whatever. But it's kind of silly given how much other stuff we're vulnerable to.
shalai, voice of plenty - wait, ok now this is definitely totally unnecessary, plus it's out of CI for narset. She already has hexproof! We don't have any other creatures! Everything already has shroud! And Shalai doesn't give itself hexproof. We've accomplished literally nothing by adding this card except putting 3 power in the air and forcing us rely on either our opponents playing specific cards for us to steal, or for our opponents not to understand the finer points of the CI rule.
conqueror's flail - why is this relevant? Other players can still cast whatever they want on their turns, it doesn't really restrict anything that might disrupt the board state, other than that they can't do it on this particular turn.
Somehow, despite having 8 cards, we've accomplished exactly the same in terms of unkillable-ness as if we had 3 - darksteel forge, fountain watch, and mycosynth lattice (and, I suppose, a few extra permanents to sacrifice first to protect the "combo"). I guess then you also need a commander to protect, but it could be anything that has white in its CI, as hexproof is irrelevant while it has shroud.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
The more well-known hard lock is here (presented as a "puzzle", but it has no actual solution; Genesis Hydra was an answer to it when it was released, but then the "puzzle" added Meddling Mage to stop it), and while it uses Erayo Essence (banned in Commander), you can substitute the emblem of Jace, Unraveller of Secrets. The full list for that lock would then be:
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forgive my ignorence, I'm not great at understanding card interactions but couldn't you still clear the board with Apocalypse?
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
While the parameters forbid it, this combo can actually be undone in Commander via Genesis Storm. Derevi, Empyrial Tactician can also undo the combo by untapping a Boseiju, Who Shelters All or similar such card. All in all, a pretty neat combo. I don't think it's very future proof considering there's so many different ways to attack it (uncounterable spells, spells with cast on trigger abilities, static abilities of lands, triggered abilities of lands, activated abilities of lands without a tap cost, activated abilities of cards in hand, etc.) that Wizards will inevitably print something new that disrupts it.
Also, the inclusion of Meddling Mage is incredibly lame here. Nothing screams "legitimate solution" more than when a designer lazily hard codes an answer like that.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
For a lot of locks like this, figuring out a way to get Kederekt Leviathan onto the battlefield is the fastest way to break it apart.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Too lazy? Or too unwilling to expose your precious baby to harsh reality?
Anyway, let's see this new and improved version.
Seriously? This is it? What an absolute joke, dude. All I need to dismantle this lock are lands. By putting five Snow-Covered Mountains and a Mouth of Ronom onto the battlefield off Omen Machine's triggered ability, I can kill Teferi, and then go from there. Hell, I don't even need to do that. I could just kill Teferi's controller with two Islands and a Faerie Conclave. And all of that is coming from an extremely restricting position in which I'm denied permanents, a graveyard, and a hand. You're not anywhere close.
And sure, could you add cards to your combo to stop the solutions I've presented? Absolutely. But that's just the thing. I've only presented you with two solutions. There are way more solutions than that. I didn't even have to get creative about it.
And again, you're dead wrong. A Tezzeret emblem would completely undo you. A Last Hope emblem would be more than just "mildly annoying." It would kill you. I didn't even have to scour the list of available emblems to know that what you're saying here is wrong.
Whenever folks espouse bull***** like you do, I'm going to call you out on it because I genuinely know what I'm talking about, and I refuse to let it go unsaid that what you're claiming is absolute nonsense.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
/glasshouses
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
And your combo is still breakable even with the inclusion of Land Equilibrium. What if I have a Roiling Horror or Benalish Commander suspended with a million time counters on them? Those will kill you. How about if I possessed any phased out permanents prior to my first turn? You wouldn't be able to Cyclonic Rift those. And what about Kheru Spellsnatcher? What if I previously Spelljacked some card, and the card could still be cast from exile without paying its mana cost? You don't seem to understand just how wrong you are about this. And I didn't even touch on emblems.
So, now what are you going to do now that I've unraveled your lock again? Are you going to move the goalposts even further? Maybe you want to make the ridiculous restrictions you've given me even more restrictive by also removing my library? Or my exile? I'm fed up with you, man. Just admit the fact that you were wrong about this. Anyone can make a "perfect lock" given just an Omen Machine if the pre-existing restrictions are absurd enough as I pointed out here. Your lock isn't built as well as you believe it to be.
Is it annoying? Because what I find annoying are condescending attitudes from people who think they know what they're talking about but really don't have a clue and are too juvenile to admit it when evidence floats to the surface.
There are several ways to unravel this, but I need a bit of time to put them together since they're quite convoluted. Stay tuned. I'll have a solution to come.
Well, you're welcome to check out my signature. I wouldn't have wasted my time writing this out if I didn't already know all about this topic.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Suppose I control the following cards since they are all lands and therefore immune to the prior Cyclonic Rift:
Life and Limb
Starfield of Nyx
Copy Enchantment, copying Starfield of Nyx
Conspiracy, naming saproling
A face down Grand Abolisher, manifested earlier that game with Soul Summons
An Oblivion Ring that previously exiled a Kederekt Leviathan
Utopia Mycon
Some number of other saprolings.
None of the above listed cards initially interfere with any part of your combo's ability to function, and therefore none of them ought to be precluded as legitimate solutions. A Cyclonic Rift still happened. Nothing has shroud/hexproof and can still be tapped at the mercy of Mind Over Matter. I'm just beginning this exercise with these lands in play.
Begin by sacrificing two saprolings on your turn to Utopia Mycon, adding WW to your mana pool. This is a mana ability and cannot be responded to as it does not use the stack. Proceed to use this mana to turn your face down Grand Abolisher face up. This is a special action and also cannot be responded to as it does not use the stack. With Grand Abolisher now face up on the battlefield, Isochron Scepter and Mind Over Matter can no longer activate their abilities.
From there, sacrifice Oblivion Ring to Utopia Mycon. Oblivion Ring's second ability will trigger, returning Kederekt Leviathan from exile to the battlefield. Kederekt Leviathan will then trigger his first ability when he enters the battlefield and return all other nonland permanents to their owners' hands, dismantling the combo.
Let me know if I overlooked something by accident. Everything appears to check out from where I'm standing.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
I don't understand what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that a Possessed Portal plus a Wheel of Fortune and some other resource generating card will create an inescapable hard lock? Because, if so, you're way off. I mean, all anyone would need to do to disrupt that is destroy the Possessed Portal with some kind of activated ability (like Gorilla Shaman). That, or kill the Possessed Portal's controller.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
Play Dryad Arbor for the turn. Cast Welding Jar, triggering Jace's emblem and Knowledge Pool. (Whether the Jar is ultimately countered by the emblem or exiled by the Pool doesn't really matter.) Next, discard Elvish and Simian Spirit Guide to flashback Acorn Harvest. How Acorn Harvest initially got into the graveyard is unimportant. Perhaps it was always there from the beginning. Perhaps it was discarded to hand size after Cyclonic Rift was overloaded. Maybe you got above the limit by naturally drawing a card each turn, discarded a Grave-Troll, and then filled your grave from there. It doesn't matter.
After Acorn Harvest resolves, sacrifice both squirrels and your Dryad Arbor to flashback Dread Return. Dread Return will then put The Mimeoplasm onto the battlefield. It will become a 17/17 copy of Crystalline Crawler by exiling Crystalline Crawler and Impervious Greatwurm. From there, remove five +1/+1 counters to flashback Past in Flames.
At this point, you can dismantle the combo in a number of ways as you now have 11 mana in any combination of colors with which you can use to cast instant and sorcery cards. (14 if you decide to flashback Increasing Savagery.) Play of the Game is, again, fairly straightforward.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Well, here's the thing. You're using Cyclonic Rift and Sunder to justify the precondition that opponents can't control permanents. (And there are other similar "holes," but I won't get into those right now.) And sure, in practice, Cyclonic Rift and Sunder tend to get the job done, but if you're trying to build an unbreakable lock, those cards create vulnerabilities because there's nothing about how those two cards interact that prevent opponents from controlling permanents after they've been cast.
For example, imagine if an opponent presumed control of some card that was enchanted by Song of the Dryads prior to your assembly. When you cast Cyclonic Rift, Song of the Dryads would return to its owner's hand, but not the card it was enchanting. Then, once Sunder resolves, all lands would return to their owners' hands, but not the card Song of the Dryads was originally enchanting because that card is no longer a land. Similarly, a card like Thragtusk leaves a 3/3 beast token behind whenever it leaves the battlefield. Thragtusk in and of itself isn't a problem, but that doesn't mean some other card couldn't be because the way you justify your precondition that opponents can't possess permanents isn't rock solid.
This is why a page ago I said that trying to keep a lock like this confined to a single color is incredibly naïve. If you only have one color to operate with, you're probably not going to find the tools you need to adequately justify your preconditions. And sure, you don't need to justify those preconditions. You could just say, hey, this lock only works provided you don't control any permanents, and that would fly, but I think you'd also feel like that isn't really satisfying since those are such narrow parameters. That's a lot like saying, hey, you're trapped in a room, and you need this key to get out of it, so try and find the key in your room that unlocks the door, but you know full well that there's no exercise to be had in the first place since the key you need is outside the room to begin with.
And again, it isn't like you need any colors at all to make an unbreakable lock. Omen Machine will do that all by itself if the preconditions are absurd enough, as I've mentioned twice before, so arbitrarily limiting your colors only translates into having to implement more constraining preconditions.
But to answer your question, given no board state at all, I'm not sure. It appears as though there's no solution, but looks can be deceiving, as I've already illustrated with your previous examples. I certainly can't think of anything off the top of my head that will work on an empty board, but that doesn't mean no answer exists, only that no answer is apparent. I've certainly built locks that looked unbreakable only to discover a solution months later.
I'm glad you're finding it exciting because that shows you're more interested in finding truth than you are winning a petty argument.
If you remove Stasis, phased out permanents are going to give you a bad time.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
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