I am not entirely sure what Darksteel Forge is doing. None of your other cards in this scenario are Artifacts so why even bother with it? I also don't know what Cloak really does for. It makes it tougher to interact with every other turn, I guess? Seems a bit useless. I assume you are trying to find a way to entirely prevent a commander from being removed and you are not going to find a way to do it. Too many things get around Shroud, Hexproof, Indestructible, and so on. And the cards above are just the ones off the top of my head. I am sure there are dozens more that can get around your example situation.
Disappointed. I was really hoping this would be a "Let's build an Unkillable commander" thread. I was excited to give it a shot. I was already wondering how to be able to repeatedly phase or blink a Sigarda, Host of Herons without removing its auras and equipments.
I am not entirely sure what Darksteel Forge is doing. None of your other cards in this scenario are Artifacts so why even bother with it? I also don't know what Cloak really does for. It makes it tougher to interact with every other turn, I guess? Seems a bit useless. I assume you are trying to find a way to entirely prevent a commander from being removed and you are not going to find a way to do it. Too many things get around Shroud, Hexproof, Indestructible, and so on. And the cards above are just the ones off the top of my head. I am sure there are dozens more that can get around your example situation.
Okay so looking at sone of the cards you suggested would not actully work because fountain watch gives all of your artifacts and enchantment hexproof so all of the target spell would not work and lets through in shalai voice of plenty as wells as mycosynth lattice and conqueror's flail
Okay so looking at sone of the cards you suggested would not actully work because fountain watch gives all of your artifacts and enchantment hexproof so all of the target spell would not work and lets through in shalai voice of plenty as wells as mycosynth lattice and conqueror's flail
I did misread Fountain Watch so you can ignore Return to Dust. The rest still stand.
As mentioned, you edited in a few other cards, but almost none of the cards I listed target. So, your additional 3 cards (specifically, the Lattice) just lets Merciless Eviction choose Artifacts (it obviously exiles everyone's everything), Kalemne's Captain exiles everything, Wave of Vitriol makes everyone sac everything (at least they get to replace all their lands). The only thing I see that those additional cards change for the worse is Earnest Fellowship since everything is colorless. Even Evacuation and Rift can still be cast on the controller's turn so the Flail would not really do much.
Is there something more specific in the cards I and others have suggested that you feel your additions actually matter for? How do you plan on getting around Mass Bounce and -X/-X effects?
Vanishing is the single most powerful aura to protect any creature from any removal ever possibile. Of course your opponents can still damage the sources of mana you need to phase out the creature or wait until you can't pay the cost anymore. But is still the best one, imho (especially if your general is Zur, the Enchanter )
I agree that this is likely one of the best options along with Teferi's Protection in hand to help save things. They can still be gotten around as it is unlikely that every one of those pieces will be around so it is possible something as simple as Krosan Grip can stop Vanishing.
I am wondering if this is a thread for "let's find the best way to protect a commander" or if this is more along the lines of "ha-ha, I have assembled a ridiculously convoluted boardstate that I think opponents can't get out of". The former would actually be a fun exercise, but the thread has been framed as the latter which suggests that the OP just wants to show how clever they are without actually coming up with a way to do what they want.
split-second, right. Then Vanishing on Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir as general to get around that. Which is actually the perfect general to build a nigh-unkillable general now that I think of (have Knowledge Pool and if you are really mean even Omen Machine while Teferi's out).
In this scenario you have a board state where your opponents can't cast spell and draw cards....and I think that's an even more powerful lock than Vanishing. If opponents got an empty or irrelevant board state the moment those pieces are out, I think is practically impossible for them to break it from outside in any way. I also find cool that you can do all this remaining monoblue meanwhile
This problem pretty much always comes back to this. There are so many ways to interact that the only foolproof way to keep it from happening is a hard lock. Even this lock is breakable by Boseiju, Who Shelters All in conjunction with removal and a non-spell way to interact with Knowledge Pool, like Nimble Obstructionist or Resounding Wave.
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Easy. Deal with pieces of it before the entire 8 card jumble gets assembled.
I mean, really, if I sit there doing nothing while my opponent assembles a bulky, unwieldy mass of cards like that, I deserve to lose. Why not destroy a couple or force them to sac a couple before they get all the protection?
Theoretically, you can actually make the perfect unstoppable lock and remaining always in monoblue while doing so.
It's true. The problem with it is that you've progressed so far into magical Christmas land by the time it happens that you've forgotten what the real world looks like.
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SnT into Omniscience into EtI into a lock probably just loses the game two turns later unless you're following up with an actual win con, at which point the lock was kind of irrelevant.
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That leads to a different solution to the problem in the following games, too. No one can kill your commander when you have to goldfish after no longer being invited to play
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Nothing is invincible. Even if there's some combo that's invincible, it's vulnerable while being set up. Just winning is way easier anyway.
But if the goal is practical invincibility, self-bouncing is pretty easy and 99% unkillable. Doubly so because no one will bother anyway even if they have an answer. One of the keys to phelddagrif's success.
Yes I did but thats okay im just trying to find a combo that works but I dont toxic deluge would not work the creature wpuld be phased out when you would be able to play that card
Okay so looking at sone of the cards you suggested would not actully work because fountain watch gives all of your artifacts and enchantment hexproof so all of the target spell would not work and lets through in shalai voice of plenty as wells as mycosynth lattice and conqueror's flail
I did misread Fountain Watch so you can ignore Return to Dust. The rest still stand.
As mentioned, you edited in a few other cards, but almost none of the cards I listed target. So, your additional 3 cards (specifically, the Lattice) just lets Merciless Eviction choose Artifacts (it obviously exiles everyone's everything), Kalemne's Captain exiles everything, Wave of Vitriol makes everyone sac everything (at least they get to replace all their lands). The only thing I see that those additional cards change for the worse is Earnest Fellowship since everything is colorless. Even Evacuation and Rift can still be cast on the controller's turn so the Flail would not really do much.
Is there something more specific in the cards I and others have suggested that you feel your additions actually matter for? How do you plan on getting around Mass Bounce and -X/-X effects?
Vanishing is the single most powerful aura to protect any creature from any removal ever possibile. Of course your opponents can still damage the sources of mana you need to phase out the creature or wait until you can't pay the cost anymore. But is still the best one, imho (especially if your general is Zur, the Enchanter )
I agree that this is likely one of the best options along with Teferi's Protection in hand to help save things. They can still be gotten around as it is unlikely that every one of those pieces will be around so it is possible something as simple as Krosan Grip can stop Vanishing.
I am wondering if this is a thread for "let's find the best way to protect a commander" or if this is more along the lines of "ha-ha, I have assembled a ridiculously convoluted boardstate that I think opponents can't get out of". The former would actually be a fun exercise, but the thread has been framed as the latter which suggests that the OP just wants to show how clever they are without actually coming up with a way to do what they want.
No im not trying to be clever I really think with every ones imput we could come up with a combo that may not be perfect but very close because i havent really seen one yet
With me, there is only one way to stop Teferi. One single category of cards. Counters. The countermagics are the only possible way to stop my combo before I can finish it to assemble it and be truly invincible (since I can cast all my deck in a single turn at that point). Only blue can truly beat blue, because blue can beat, thanks of the counters, any other color of Magic, including itself. So all things ends that whoever got in hand the more counters and the mana open, win. And you know what? Selenia and Crovax can't play counters, but Teferi can and will.
You are still talking about the Teferi/Knowledge Pool lock? There are plenty of ways to beat it that are not blue:
I am sure there are more. Now, whether these see enough play to really matter is another question (though, if you insisted on running the Teferi/Pool lock, I would probably build one of the generals above to help combat it). So, while Blue probably has the most answers, it definitely does not have the *only* answers even when under the "lock".
I know that counters can obviously stop the things above but eventually you will run out. It is still a vicious lock and that isn't to be discounted but your attitude towards it being the best thing ever seems odd when things do exist to get around it.
And, as mentioned earlier, if you are just assembling the lock and then immediately drawing your deck, I don't see the purpose of the lock at all. You already have your deck in hand; what more is the lock really going to do for you that you can't already do with your entire library in hand.
Yes I did but thats okay im just trying to find a combo that works but I dont toxic deluge would not work the creature wpuld be phased out when you would be able to play that card
It is only phased out every other turn. So, turn 1 it is phased out and I can't cast Deluge. Turn 2, it phases back in and I can cast Deluge at that point. Are you thinking that it phases out at every Untap Step and then only phases in during yours? Because that is wrong. At some point, it will be phased in on everyone's turn where they can do something with a Sorcery.
No im not trying to be clever I really think with every ones imput we could come up with a combo that may not be perfect but very close because i havent really seen one yet
That is because one doesn't exist. There is talk in here about the Teferi/Knowledge Pool lock and that is likely less answerable than just trying to protect your general. If you had instead framed this discussion as one about trying to find a way to protect your commander rather than asking for ways to beat what you already had, I think you would have found you would have gotten better responses. Though, others have already provided insight into this anyway with Vanishing probably being one of the better options.
You are still talking about the Teferi/Knowledge Pool lock? There are plenty of ways to beat it that are not blue
I'm afraid you didn't follow the entire discussion. Re-read it please. I already explained that I would just play an overloaded Cyclonic Rift right before I cast Teferi, and after I manage to cast the Omnitell combo, I already said what are the cards that makes for the perfect lock even if I give to my opponents all the turns of this world and all the magic cards in existance to deal with it. Counters are the only things that would stop my invincible lock right before is about to happend.
All of those cards I listed can be generals. All of those cards can be cast without the Pool triggering since they are not being cast from hand. If you have me all the turns in the world, one of those cards is going to make it to the battlefield. I am simply stating these are options to deal with the lock after it is assembled.
I would probably just lean on my Karador deck to cast Karador from the Command Zone and a bunch of stuff from the graveyard (assuming that is not gone). The cards I listed deal with one of the pieces on their own (and the Eldrazi I listed don't care about the lock either as their cast triggers still work).
Is there something specific you are doing to also shut down casting things from my Command Zone, Graveyard, and Exile (maybe I use Etali at some point). I am simply pointing out that it is not an invincible lock. It is strong, but more than Counters can deal with it.
All of those cards I listed can be generals. All of those cards can be cast without the Pool triggering
Dude, re read my previous posts because I already covered that point. Literally. Re-read all, and after that you can come back and tell me where are still the flaws of the combo.
I admit I did miss a couple cards you mentioned earlier as they were split over a number of posts and I must have skipped over a couple. If I understand everything you have said, you have the following lock pieces:
Teferi
Vanishing
Knowledge Pool
Omen Machine (maybe; you didn't seem convinced on this being included)
Arcane Labratory
Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
Gigadrowse
Stasis
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Trickind imprinted on a Scepter
Mind over Matter
Arcanis
Armageddon
And I understand that we are talking Magical Christmas Land. There is no way that one can conceivably believe that they can put together these pieces in any way where some other combo is not better to just win the game. But, this is the point of the discussion I suppose.
The Trickbind/Scepter piece is arguably the most important for this and the main one I missed. It stops Shattering Spree, the Eldrazi, cycling, and so on.
Stasis, Gigadrowse, and Omen Machine specifically are needed to shut down Zacama since it gets around the Teferi/Pool lock and the Trickbind/Scepter combo. Cavern of Souls gets it around Jace's Emblem. So, with the cards listed above, I don't see an obvious way to get through all 13 lock pieces above.
If the OP is simply looking for a way to completely lock out a table, this seems like a pretty foolproof way to do it. The chances of this happening in a real game are exceptionally slim (unless the players you are playing against aren't paying attention) but maybe they would have fun trying to assemble the lock.
Going back to the original post, what about using a Karn Liberated -14 Ult and just restart the game. Warp World might work just as well. I get that the exercise was to kill the commander, but this does remove it from the field.
Yes, nothing is invincible, but the fun is too see how much narrow are the answers or the pieces you need to assemble. The narrower and limited are the removals, the better is the protection.
How about this for invincible - first I kill all the other players. Then my stuff is totally invincible and cannot be removed by anyone else. And best of all, it's pretty practical, I do it all the time.
To be fair is not practical, because a creature selfbounced is simply not a threat anymore. Is exactly like killing the creature, but minus the commander taxes and plus losing the life points.
In general people won't bother targeting in the first place, though. That's the best kind of invincibility. Also, very practical.
I guess this topic can be mildly entertaining from a theoretical perspective and it seems to come up every now and again, but in terms of practicality it's basically totally irrelevant.
I'm afraid you didn't follow the entire discussion. Re-read it please. I already explained that I would just play an overloaded Cyclonic Rift right before I cast Teferi, and after I manage to cast the Omnitell combo, I already said what are the cards that makes for the perfect lock even if I give to my opponents all the turns of this world and all the magic cards in existance to deal with it. Counters are the only things that would stop my invincible lock right before is about to happend (because after I manage to do it, its too late and nobody can't do anything anymore...and not only not killing my general).
You're setting up your combo using Show and Tell. Every color has uncounterable ways to disrupt it as part of your setup. You're talking about overloading Rift and casting Teferi eot before you try all this to keep people from interacting, which is a 12 mana investment (incidentally, if you have this much mana why not just cast Omniscience and close that window for interaction?). That leaves an enormous amount of time for people to disrupt you before you lock them out, especially if you're spending your early game resources drawing and tutoring for the pieces of your three card combo.
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Narset, enlightened master
Cloak of invisibility
Indestructibility
Darksteel forge
Fountain watch
mycosynth lattice
shalai voice of plenty
conqueror's flail
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
Wave of Vitriol - Makes you sacrifice the enchantments and artifacts
Earnest Fellowship - Causes the Enchantments to fall off
Cataclysmic Gearhulk (it gets rid of one of the enchantments and likely the Fountain Watch)
Return to Dust - Gets rid of the Enchantments(Misread Fountain Watch)Kalemne's Captain - A bit on the high side, but not awful
Hour of Devastation - Gets rid of Indestructible
Cyclonic Rift - Bounces everything
Devastation Tide - Bounces everything
Evacuation - Bounces the creatures; the auras go to the graveyard
Toxic Deluge - Kills the creatures
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite - Kills Narset at least
I am not entirely sure what Darksteel Forge is doing. None of your other cards in this scenario are Artifacts so why even bother with it? I also don't know what Cloak really does for. It makes it tougher to interact with every other turn, I guess? Seems a bit useless. I assume you are trying to find a way to entirely prevent a commander from being removed and you are not going to find a way to do it. Too many things get around Shroud, Hexproof, Indestructible, and so on. And the cards above are just the ones off the top of my head. I am sure there are dozens more that can get around your example situation.
Also:
Any exiling board wipes, targeted removal, anything similar to Terminus, Black Sun's Zenith, Barter in Blood, and a lot of other things.
If I didn't know any better, then I'd almost think the pool of cards that can remove it was almost as large as the pool of cards that can't.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
B Toshiro Umezawa
BG Pharika, God of Affliction - Necromancy and Politics
WWW The Church of Heliod
WBR Zurgo, Helmsmasher
RG Wort, the Raidmother
UBR Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
Toxic Deluge.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
As mentioned, you edited in a few other cards, but almost none of the cards I listed target. So, your additional 3 cards (specifically, the Lattice) just lets Merciless Eviction choose Artifacts (it obviously exiles everyone's everything), Kalemne's Captain exiles everything, Wave of Vitriol makes everyone sac everything (at least they get to replace all their lands). The only thing I see that those additional cards change for the worse is Earnest Fellowship since everything is colorless. Even Evacuation and Rift can still be cast on the controller's turn so the Flail would not really do much.
Is there something more specific in the cards I and others have suggested that you feel your additions actually matter for? How do you plan on getting around Mass Bounce and -X/-X effects?
I agree that this is likely one of the best options along with Teferi's Protection in hand to help save things. They can still be gotten around as it is unlikely that every one of those pieces will be around so it is possible something as simple as Krosan Grip can stop Vanishing.
I am wondering if this is a thread for "let's find the best way to protect a commander" or if this is more along the lines of "ha-ha, I have assembled a ridiculously convoluted boardstate that I think opponents can't get out of". The former would actually be a fun exercise, but the thread has been framed as the latter which suggests that the OP just wants to show how clever they are without actually coming up with a way to do what they want.
I mean, really, if I sit there doing nothing while my opponent assembles a bulky, unwieldy mass of cards like that, I deserve to lose. Why not destroy a couple or force them to sac a couple before they get all the protection?
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
But if the goal is practical invincibility, self-bouncing is pretty easy and 99% unkillable. Doubly so because no one will bother anyway even if they have an answer. One of the keys to phelddagrif's success.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Flickerform helps with dodging stuff while keeping aura enchantments on her.
It's always nice to use Three Dreams for Ethereal Armor, Armadillo Cloak and Unflinching Courage, so that Sigarda starts healing you for absurd amounts if she survives until the next turn.
No im not trying to be clever I really think with every ones imput we could come up with a combo that may not be perfect but very close because i havent really seen one yet
These kill Teferi:
And these kill Knowledge Pool:
I am sure there are more. Now, whether these see enough play to really matter is another question (though, if you insisted on running the Teferi/Pool lock, I would probably build one of the generals above to help combat it). So, while Blue probably has the most answers, it definitely does not have the *only* answers even when under the "lock".
I know that counters can obviously stop the things above but eventually you will run out. It is still a vicious lock and that isn't to be discounted but your attitude towards it being the best thing ever seems odd when things do exist to get around it.
And, as mentioned earlier, if you are just assembling the lock and then immediately drawing your deck, I don't see the purpose of the lock at all. You already have your deck in hand; what more is the lock really going to do for you that you can't already do with your entire library in hand.
It is only phased out every other turn. So, turn 1 it is phased out and I can't cast Deluge. Turn 2, it phases back in and I can cast Deluge at that point. Are you thinking that it phases out at every Untap Step and then only phases in during yours? Because that is wrong. At some point, it will be phased in on everyone's turn where they can do something with a Sorcery.
That is because one doesn't exist. There is talk in here about the Teferi/Knowledge Pool lock and that is likely less answerable than just trying to protect your general. If you had instead framed this discussion as one about trying to find a way to protect your commander rather than asking for ways to beat what you already had, I think you would have found you would have gotten better responses. Though, others have already provided insight into this anyway with Vanishing probably being one of the better options.
I would probably just lean on my Karador deck to cast Karador from the Command Zone and a bunch of stuff from the graveyard (assuming that is not gone). The cards I listed deal with one of the pieces on their own (and the Eldrazi I listed don't care about the lock either as their cast triggers still work).
Is there something specific you are doing to also shut down casting things from my Command Zone, Graveyard, and Exile (maybe I use Etali at some point). I am simply pointing out that it is not an invincible lock. It is strong, but more than Counters can deal with it.
Teferi
Vanishing
Knowledge Pool
Omen Machine (maybe; you didn't seem convinced on this being included)
Arcane Labratory
Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
Gigadrowse
Stasis
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Trickind imprinted on a Scepter
Mind over Matter
Arcanis
Armageddon
And I understand that we are talking Magical Christmas Land. There is no way that one can conceivably believe that they can put together these pieces in any way where some other combo is not better to just win the game. But, this is the point of the discussion I suppose.
The Trickbind/Scepter piece is arguably the most important for this and the main one I missed. It stops Shattering Spree, the Eldrazi, cycling, and so on.
Stasis, Gigadrowse, and Omen Machine specifically are needed to shut down Zacama since it gets around the Teferi/Pool lock and the Trickbind/Scepter combo. Cavern of Souls gets it around Jace's Emblem. So, with the cards listed above, I don't see an obvious way to get through all 13 lock pieces above.
If the OP is simply looking for a way to completely lock out a table, this seems like a pretty foolproof way to do it. The chances of this happening in a real game are exceptionally slim (unless the players you are playing against aren't paying attention) but maybe they would have fun trying to assemble the lock.
In general people won't bother targeting in the first place, though. That's the best kind of invincibility. Also, very practical.
I guess this topic can be mildly entertaining from a theoretical perspective and it seems to come up every now and again, but in terms of practicality it's basically totally irrelevant.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6