Being able to get exactly what you need when you need it kinda ruins the idea of a singleton format. Variation is part of the format, but being able to select the answer or wincon you need completely negates this.
Fast mana can hurt a game, but in the same way mana flood or screw does. There's a decent element of luck in the game. You manage to get a T1 Sol Ring? Sure, that propels you amazingly in the early game, but late game does much less. A late game tutor is basically going to win you the game.
Fast mana 100%. If someone lucks into all their fast mana rocks and no one else does, they usually win before anyone else has a chance to do anything. At the very least they get so far ahead that they can dominate and deal with people trying to deal with them as they have much more mana to recover from any setbacks.
Tutors in the late game can be game winning, but really there's so many strong effects in EDH that almost anything late game can be game winning. Fast mana is the problem because it allows someone to artificially get to that late game waaaaay earlier than anyone else. Nothing like kicking a Tooth and Nail or using Omniscience turn 2-4 because you lucked into fast mana.
Fast mana is by far the bigger problem. Tutoring for the same cards every game is certainly boring, but not inherently problematic. Are you tutoring for explicit game-ending combos as quickly as possible? Congrats, you're an outlier of the social contract and in the minority of EDH players. Fast mana, on the other hand, is actively encouraged by the 'battlecruiser' mentality that the RC outlines. Ramp, ramp, and more ramp is the name of the game. It appears every game at every level of play and it actively warps the format.
I don't really see how either hurt the format. Both make it much more enjoyable than it would be without them. The format is about doing big splashy plays. Fast mana lets you actually be able to cast the big spells, and tutors ensure you have them to cast.
People that complain about both, without trying to discuss this with their playgroup and make adjustments.
I am not trying to start a flame or troll anyone, that's my genuine opinion. I think both of them are fine if and when there is a similar power level.
If you take them out of context, it's a totally different (and neverending) discussion imo.
I think they’re both part of Commander and what makes it a fun and different format. If you hate tutors, play search hate. If you hate fast mana, have mana denial as part of your strategy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
In many games that become "unfun" it is the player who explodes early and gets to the end game faster than everyone else.
Tutors can be unfun if used for the same purpose, but overall it is less of a problem. As mentioned above, if you tutor early for the same fast combo, that is less acceptable as fun for the majority of EDH'ers compared to "Make big mana, cast big things".
I think if more players played (slightly) higher density of early game artifact removal like Nature's Claim, Reclamation Sage, and Vandalblast, this problem would be mitigated greatly. Myself included... The big problem is the feel bad card disadvantage when spending your card to deal with a Sol Ring, while players 3&4 expend no resources and lose no momentum. Such is the game of Magic.
Getting T1 Sol Ring is a huge leap forward, but usually it requires a presence for a few turns to become back breaking. Shooting it on turn 2-3 is usually enough to get the game progressing at a more normal rate, unless said player spits out something hard to interact with. In which case...fast mana.
Tutors. They reduce variance. Which is part of the fun of MtG. They also enable combo wins. But mostly, I hate it when people cast a tutor without a card in mind to tutor for.
Personally I like fast mana and tutors in EDH. I think the issue is decks of varying power level. If everyone's deck is at a similar power level (and those playing have good threat assessment), then games can last a very long time and have lots of swings about who is in first place at any particular time. Granted there will be some games where people win really early, but with 4 or more people with similarly powered decks that is the exception rather than the rule.
The above being said I think fast mana is likely stronger of the two for two key reasons:
Fast mana enables one to cast their commander faster. A deck's commander is normally key for the deck's strongest synergy, engine and strategies. Variance doesn't matter for one's commander since a deck's commander is almost always available from the command zone.
Tutors enable other players to find answers as well as threats.
Fast mana. Mana is the most limiting resource in Magic and being able to jump ahead of your opponents with broken mana rocks is what fuels cEDH/quick combo. Cheap tutors are also problematic on a certain level but they're nowhere near as good as fast mana.
Fast mana 100%. If someone lucks into all their fast mana rocks and no one else does, they usually win before anyone else has a chance to do anything. At the very least they get so far ahead that they can dominate and deal with people trying to deal with them as they have much more mana to recover from any setbacks.
Tutors in the late game can be game winning, but really there's so many strong effects in EDH that almost anything late game can be game winning. Fast mana is the problem because it allows someone to artificially get to that late game waaaaay earlier than anyone else. Nothing like kicking a Tooth and Nail or using Omniscience turn 2-4 because you lucked into fast mana.
I have a game on youtube i can show you where that is not true (While i did still end up winning, it was not due to mana, it was due to having the right cards at the right time.
I did not accel as much as I would have liked even if turn one was land, sol ring, grim monolith, chromatic lantern. But turn, maybe 4, you see that the mana did not matter in the end.
That said, Tutors while are not always game winning, are an issue as some people are not sure what to search for. Then they take five minute searching. I run all 10 fetch land sin my deck and the only time i am wasting time is trying to find the card i want, not thinking about the card I want. 99% of the time, i play a tutor I know what i want to grab. Many people play the tutor without knowing what they want.
In general, I think the bigger issue is tutors. I can see that seems to be the minority opinion, but fast mana is often fine. It certainly affects games and turns the (early) game into a bit of archenemy (or, it can anyway). But, depending on the meta, it will rarely end the game on its own. Now, my meta has very little in the way of infinite combos or turn 4 wins anyway (and that is with basically everyone running Sol Ring). So, I understand that this may not be the same for everyone. I believe cEDH doesn't want either one and fast mana is a problem. But this isn't about cEDH; this is about playing EDH as a group of friends and playing the game in a social setting. I don't mean this to be the "right" approach, but I feel it necessary to explain the meta I am talking about.
Tutors just turn games into the same end game. For example, one of the decks I play against fairly often is an Aminatou deck. As the game goes on, we are all doing our thing, interacting, and generally playing the game. But, eventually, they will tutor out Debt to the Deathless (and it is often that this is the card they go for) and just kill us all. I don't mind losing this way, but it is somewhat frustrating to have games end in such an abrupt manner kind of out of the blue.
So, in my mind, the issue with tutors isn't that games end too quickly or that it enables fast plays (the same as fast mana does). Those things happen and are acceptable. My biggest issue with tutors is that they create repetitive games.
In my mind the fast tutors are more of a problem if and when you are trying to combo off quickly. Tutors can be very versatile and maybe you get some sort of draw engine, ramp, or an answer. In my mind tutors are very viable in all sort of decks but generally if you are going to run fast mana its because you are either going to try to win quickly or you are going to abuse draw to the point that you are abusing ramp into draw.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Tutors are why I run Aven Mindcensor in each of my white decks. If I really don't need to tutor, there's Stranglehold.
Fast mana requires more varied answers. Mana dorks can just take a Pyroclasm or Drown in Sorrow. For ramp spells, you need to punish them and have plenty of denial ready. Nothing worse than playing a good ramp spell...only start singing a different tune. I suggest "Dies Irae". (And yes, if you whine about a well-played Armageddon, not just Ragemageddon bull*****, you are an entitled scrub.) Aven Mindcensor and Stranglehold will also end any hope for searching your library, and Ob Nixilis, Unshackled punish ramp spells, as can Ankh of Mishra or Tunnel Ignus. Mana rocks can be dealt with just with artifact removal, but Vandalblast is the best option, followed by Austere Command. (Green has options, but nothing as good as those two.) That leaves enchantments and planeswalkers, which really can be dispatched with spot removal.
Fast mana requires a lot of different answers, while tutors require only the same anti-search cards, plus those cards also disable Skyshroud Claim and friends.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I think in terms of which cards make commander the most "not-commandery" I think you could argue that tutors are problematic. BUT I don't think that's limited to cheap tutors. Any tutor, even expensive stuff like diabolic tutor, makes games more consistent. In 75% games, I don't think there's even THAT big of a difference between the cheap and the expensive ones, it's only in highly competitive edh. The issue with mana rocks, imo, is that you've got 2 (ring and crypt) that are so, so far out of whack with what's considered a "fair" cost, and there really isn't anything else in the same league. (and no, I don't consider mana vault in the same league. It's closer to dark rit or something - powerful in competitive but not actually that OP in casual, except maybe in brago or smth)
If you ban the best tutors, people will just play the NEXT best tutors. There's a lot of tutors. I play a lot of them, and I've still got plenty in my box that I've never used (cruel tutor, anyone?). In fair games, I don't think it'll make that big of a difference, until you ban a LOT of them.
Sol ring and Mana Crypt are unique and not replaceable. Other ramp doesn't achieve nearly the same thing. Banning them would actually have a significant impact on the format, and a positive one imo.
Tutors are worse - they make ruin the variance and the fun of being singleton.
I agree that fast mana will skew a game a lot and the person with turn 1 sol ring will usually win a game against 3 people with no sol ring... but that is part of the variance of Commander. I think ultimately that it would be more fun without fast mana, but I don't think it hurts the format.
Lucking into a turn 1 sol ring can be fun. Drawing a turn 8 sol ring really sucks. That is the variance I like in Commander.
Tutoring for the perfect card in any situation is not fun. On turn 1, yes, they are probably searching for ramp... but the rest of the time they are tutoring win conditions, and that versatility ruins games, because they are perfect draws whenever you get them.
I see a lot of both online. Fast mana, surprise, doesn't always win the game. Resolving a turn 1 rock doesn't even get you a 50/50 shot. It makes it somewhat more likely, but if you're the only one to do it it also makes you a target. Tutoring for a combo piece results in winning the game far more often. Being able to do that early is a much bigger problem.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I voted Tutors, because it takes the variance out of the format. Green for example gives medium speed Mana (if you use Green for Ramp), but it isn't a problem if everyone else has a fair amount of mana. The example I might give is that if everyone had a Sol Ring - the game stays relatively equal. But if everyone has Tutors (and lets assume a reasonable amount of mana) then the person who tutors first and is able to cast their tutor target should win. This is a very simplified and unreal scenario, but it's a generalized view of how I feel without going into too much depth.
Fast Mana helps you win quicker, but honestly I don't think either hurt the format at all.
Someone who gets it. But you have to look at the picture here. Fast mana is good, but do you automatically win when you have the fast start?
Tutors can be game winning moves, but a lot of times it is just infuriating to have players take a turn that should be a minute or two spend ten just to search their deck. And then you have those who think for about an hour if they wish to attack. I hold my tongue quite often because when get to the point of yelling at them to DO SOMETHINHG OR PASS, well then they attack me. My turns happen fast. Because while they are spending a half hour to do very little, I am thinking of my turn, how it will play out. Sure sometime i draw a card that changes my plan, but if I draw a lands, chances are I will drop that land so I have one extra mana to execute my plan with. And sometime the card i draw does not play into the strategy i have in mind.
If you have a top tier commander. So cEDH, which is irrelevant to the banlist.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I disagree. I think that cheap tutors hurt the game far more. Specifically, Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, and the cheap one mana tutors.
Here's why:
Being able to get exactly what you need when you need it kinda ruins the idea of a singleton format. Variation is part of the format, but being able to select the answer or wincon you need completely negates this.
Fast mana can hurt a game, but in the same way mana flood or screw does. There's a decent element of luck in the game. You manage to get a T1 Sol Ring? Sure, that propels you amazingly in the early game, but late game does much less. A late game tutor is basically going to win you the game.
What is your opinion?
Tutors in the late game can be game winning, but really there's so many strong effects in EDH that almost anything late game can be game winning. Fast mana is the problem because it allows someone to artificially get to that late game waaaaay earlier than anyone else. Nothing like kicking a Tooth and Nail or using Omniscience turn 2-4 because you lucked into fast mana.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
How many times is a Turn 1 Vampiric Tutor used to get a Sol Ring or Mana Crypt? It's in the 90 percentile range, no argument.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I am not trying to start a flame or troll anyone, that's my genuine opinion. I think both of them are fine if and when there is a similar power level.
If you take them out of context, it's a totally different (and neverending) discussion imo.
Marath, Will of the Wild
Friendly Kess Twin Combo
Tatyova - Sir Bounce A Lot
Gonti's Luxury Pie
Prime (Eldrazi) Speaker Zegana (Retired)
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Even with tutor, you still need mana in most cases to carry out your plan.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
In many games that become "unfun" it is the player who explodes early and gets to the end game faster than everyone else.
Tutors can be unfun if used for the same purpose, but overall it is less of a problem. As mentioned above, if you tutor early for the same fast combo, that is less acceptable as fun for the majority of EDH'ers compared to "Make big mana, cast big things".
I think if more players played (slightly) higher density of early game artifact removal like Nature's Claim, Reclamation Sage, and Vandalblast, this problem would be mitigated greatly. Myself included... The big problem is the feel bad card disadvantage when spending your card to deal with a Sol Ring, while players 3&4 expend no resources and lose no momentum. Such is the game of Magic.
Getting T1 Sol Ring is a huge leap forward, but usually it requires a presence for a few turns to become back breaking. Shooting it on turn 2-3 is usually enough to get the game progressing at a more normal rate, unless said player spits out something hard to interact with. In which case...fast mana.
Bruse Tarl & Kraum, Ludevic's Opus
Mayael the Anima
The above being said I think fast mana is likely stronger of the two for two key reasons:
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
I have a game on youtube i can show you where that is not true (While i did still end up winning, it was not due to mana, it was due to having the right cards at the right time.
I did not accel as much as I would have liked even if turn one was land, sol ring, grim monolith, chromatic lantern. But turn, maybe 4, you see that the mana did not matter in the end.
That said, Tutors while are not always game winning, are an issue as some people are not sure what to search for. Then they take five minute searching. I run all 10 fetch land sin my deck and the only time i am wasting time is trying to find the card i want, not thinking about the card I want. 99% of the time, i play a tutor I know what i want to grab. Many people play the tutor without knowing what they want.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Tutors just turn games into the same end game. For example, one of the decks I play against fairly often is an Aminatou deck. As the game goes on, we are all doing our thing, interacting, and generally playing the game. But, eventually, they will tutor out Debt to the Deathless (and it is often that this is the card they go for) and just kill us all. I don't mind losing this way, but it is somewhat frustrating to have games end in such an abrupt manner kind of out of the blue.
So, in my mind, the issue with tutors isn't that games end too quickly or that it enables fast plays (the same as fast mana does). Those things happen and are acceptable. My biggest issue with tutors is that they create repetitive games.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Fast mana requires more varied answers. Mana dorks can just take a Pyroclasm or Drown in Sorrow. For ramp spells, you need to punish them and have plenty of denial ready. Nothing worse than playing a good ramp spell...only start singing a different tune. I suggest "Dies Irae". (And yes, if you whine about a well-played Armageddon, not just Ragemageddon bull*****, you are an entitled scrub.) Aven Mindcensor and Stranglehold will also end any hope for searching your library, and Ob Nixilis, Unshackled punish ramp spells, as can Ankh of Mishra or Tunnel Ignus. Mana rocks can be dealt with just with artifact removal, but Vandalblast is the best option, followed by Austere Command. (Green has options, but nothing as good as those two.) That leaves enchantments and planeswalkers, which really can be dispatched with spot removal.
Fast mana requires a lot of different answers, while tutors require only the same anti-search cards, plus those cards also disable Skyshroud Claim and friends.
On phasing:
If you ban the best tutors, people will just play the NEXT best tutors. There's a lot of tutors. I play a lot of them, and I've still got plenty in my box that I've never used (cruel tutor, anyone?). In fair games, I don't think it'll make that big of a difference, until you ban a LOT of them.
Sol ring and Mana Crypt are unique and not replaceable. Other ramp doesn't achieve nearly the same thing. Banning them would actually have a significant impact on the format, and a positive one imo.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I agree that fast mana will skew a game a lot and the person with turn 1 sol ring will usually win a game against 3 people with no sol ring... but that is part of the variance of Commander. I think ultimately that it would be more fun without fast mana, but I don't think it hurts the format.
Lucking into a turn 1 sol ring can be fun. Drawing a turn 8 sol ring really sucks. That is the variance I like in Commander.
Tutoring for the perfect card in any situation is not fun. On turn 1, yes, they are probably searching for ramp... but the rest of the time they are tutoring win conditions, and that versatility ruins games, because they are perfect draws whenever you get them.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Someone who gets it. But you have to look at the picture here. Fast mana is good, but do you automatically win when you have the fast start?
Tutors can be game winning moves, but a lot of times it is just infuriating to have players take a turn that should be a minute or two spend ten just to search their deck. And then you have those who think for about an hour if they wish to attack. I hold my tongue quite often because when get to the point of yelling at them to DO SOMETHINHG OR PASS, well then they attack me. My turns happen fast. Because while they are spending a half hour to do very little, I am thinking of my turn, how it will play out. Sure sometime i draw a card that changes my plan, but if I draw a lands, chances are I will drop that land so I have one extra mana to execute my plan with. And sometime the card i draw does not play into the strategy i have in mind.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Yes, you do pretty much win when you have the fast start if you have a top tier commander and know how to build a deck that works with your commander. At the very least you have a huge advantage. The ramp enables you to kill your opponents fast, tutor or otherwise gain card advantage. For example, ramping into Zur the Enchanter, Arcum Dagsson, Captain Sisay, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, Sidisi, Undead Vizier, The Gitrog Monster, Yisan, the Wanderer Bard, Azami, Lady of Scrolls, Momir Vig, Simic Visionary or Narset, Enlightened Master. These are commanders who are engines by themselves. Granted there are other commanders that are similarly backbreaking if ramped into early (e.g. Grand Arbiter Augustin IV), but I wanted to focus on commanders that are engines themselves as technically someone could just draw bricks, making a tutor better.
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
If you have a top tier commander. So cEDH, which is irrelevant to the banlist.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!