MTG Salvation

Here is the first line of rule for Trostani Discordant on Gatherer: "The owner of a token is the player who created it."

And because Trostani allows you to gain control of all creatures you own, any effect that create tokens for your opponent those tokens would end up becoming yours at the end of your turn.

I confess this is a pleasant surprise for me and opens up some possibility with Trostani V.2, what do you guys think?

What effects are you thinking of? Because I am pretty sure you are misunderstanding the rule. For example, if you tap a Forbidden Orchard your opponent creates the token and your opponent owns it. Or, if you cast a Hunted Troll, your opponent creates those tokens as well, so they own them.

Note that this changed years ago; it used to work the way you are thinking. The Gatherer ruling is correct, but in the examples above, your opponents create them so they own them. I am not aware of any way for you to force your opponents to create a token you own (maybe some corner case with 4 cards or something that would never really come up).

Quote from WizardMN »

What effects are you thinking of? Because I am pretty sure you are misunderstanding the rule. For example, if you tap a Forbidden Orchard your opponent creates the token and your opponent owns it. Or, if you cast a Hunted Troll, your opponent creates those tokens as well, so they own them.

Note that this changed years ago; it used to work the way you are thinking. The Gatherer ruling is correct, but in the examples above, your opponents create them so they own them. I am not aware of any way for you to force your opponents to create a token you own (maybe some corner case with 4 cards or something that would never really come up).

Come to think of it, I cannot recall any effect that let you create tokens THEN give to a opponent. Hm, perhaps this won’t open as many doors as I thought...

I actually thought of that first. There are still things you can do with opponents creating tokens, but it's more stuff like Suture Priest, Oath of Druids, Defense of the Heart, and Massacre Wurm.

Once upon a time, this worked as you're thinking (such as when the Hunted creature cycle eg Hunted Lammasu was printed in original Ravnica). At the time, the rule was that the player whose effect put the token into play was the owner, though there were very few cards that cared (eg, Despotic Scepter, Brand, Brooding Saurian).

Then the rule was changed to being the token was owned by whoever's control it entered under, which meant Gather Specimens in response to a token-creating spell would make the tokens owned by the Gather Specimens player.

Now the rule is the tokens are owned by whoever "created" the tokens (a relatively new term, I believe the rule change was made at the same time as the terminology change), which is nearly identical to the original rule, but cards which put tokens under opponents' control have been errata'd to have those opponents do the creating. Compare the printed text on COK Forbidden Orchard ("put a ... token into play under target opponent's control") to the Oracle/C16 text of Forbidden Orchard ("target opponent creates a ... token") for example.

The change happened with the "create" terminology.

Quote from hyalapterouslemur »

The change happened with the "create" terminology.

That's not correct. The 'create' terminology was introduced in Kaladesh. Meanwhile there were two rules changes to token ownership, one made in Magic 2010 and one made in Core Set 2019.

The Magic 2010 change is the one people are referring to. Before M10, a token's owner was the controller of the effect that put it onto the battlefield. The M10 change was that the owner of a token was now the player whose control the token entered the battlefield under.

In Core Set 2019, the new terminology was used to clean up that rule further and it now defines a token's owner as the one who created it, as Lithl stated. Cards like Hunted Troll were re-worded to have your opponents create the token, so there wasn't much of a difference. This is generally only relevant for cards like Gather Specimens where a token could be created by one player but enter the battlefield under control of another.

Dubious challenge come to mind....

Quote from Enteroechoro »

Dubious challenge come to mind....

That's not one that creates tokens per se. I mean, it can grab your opponent, say, a Deranged Hermit (to use the old example of a creature that makes tokens upon ETB), your opponent creates squirrel tokens because he or she is instructed to do so.

Also, I haven't slept in over, wow, has it been 34 hours? Give me a break.

Quote from hyalapterouslemur »

Quote from Enteroechoro »

Dubious challenge come to mind....

That's not one that creates tokens per se. I mean, it can grab your opponent, say, a Deranged Hermit (to use the old example of a creature that makes tokens upon ETB), your opponent creates squirrel tokens because he or she is instructed to do so.

Also, I haven't slept in over, wow, has it been 34 hours? Give me a break.

I think they just meant as a way to use the Discordant, not necessarily a way to get tokens. You Challenge and then end up with both creatures.

It was changed to stop my own Hunted Dragon powering up my own Warp World. That's the short form of the logistics behind it.