The focus is on artifacts in general as opposed to equipment, although there will be some select few equipment cards. My meta is not particularly competitive so which one is stronger is not a big factor.
My artifact decks tend to be a bit durdly and not accomplish a lot, so the idea of Ishai would be to just have two separate partner commanders who like to turn sideways in order to end games. I think Ishai is a bit underappreciated as a partner, and I like that he's a low-maintenance threat who gets big on his own and comes with evasion. Plus, cool art. Blue is also undoubtedly the better artifact color and lets me include goodies like Sai, Master Thopterist, Storm the Vault, Whirler Rogue, and Padeem, Consul of Innovation.
But Tymna is a tried and true card advantage monster, and I like the idea of opening almost every game consistently with T1 artifact, T2 Akiri, T3 Tymna and swing for a card. I don't need the deck to run like a well-oiled machine, but it is nice to at least be able to play every game and not get mana screwed too often. Akiri is already a beater, so arguably Ishai is redundant. Black also gets me all that amazing Mardu removal along with Cranial Plating. Tymna is also an incentive to include more creatures which might let me close out games faster.
Does anyone have any first-hand experience with Ishai? I like him a lot in theory but I'm curious how he works out in practice. For that matter does anyone have experience with Akiri//Tymna? I seem to recall that's a popular pairing.
It's a bit of a strange one, because I feel this is less about "which commander is better?" and whether you should play Jeskai WUR or Mardu WBR.
Because they are both good, but in different ways.
I do have a Akiri, Line-Slinger and Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker deck, but I literally using them for the color pairing, as opposed to synergy. Jeskai has some of the most limited commander selections in the color pie, so this was out of limited selection, rather than being a good combination.
But Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker is pretty excellent at being a win condition. The nice thing about him is if you don't even need to build around him, you can just cast him out and let opponents deal. If they have an answer, fine, he wasn't your game plan anyway. If they don't then he can just end up killing people.
He can be really nice against combo decks that don't look to interact with opponents (i.e. they don't have removal) and you can talk the table into just going wild with casting spells and you can put that player under like a 4 turn clock.
But otherwise it's really if you want to play black or blue?
If you hadn't said you weren't focusing on equipment, I'd have said Tymna. I have a A&T deck and, even treating black as more of a splash than a main colour, she perfectly fills in the gaps in a combat based RW deck with reliable card draw in the command zone plus access to good tutors and some more removal. If your goal is to 21 people with a suited up Akiri, Tymna is the best support you could ask for.
However, for a more general artifact themed deck, I'd lean more towards Ishai. While the card itself probably adds less to the deck than Tymna would - he is a decent wincon, as, if left unanswered, he will grow pretty large, but you've already got one in Akiri - blue has a lot more "artifacts matter" cards than black and so you'll be able to do a lot more with interesting card interactions and have more variety and versatility rather than being tied to going all in on commander damage.
Not sure how much you care bout colors because this would put you in 4, but what about Silas Renn, Seeker Adept... Get those artifacts back, add the two best draw colors. You can use things like Nihil Spellbomb as removal and card advantage, throw in Salvaging Station to get back your baubles and spellbombs.
Tymna is abetter choice than Ishai. I play Ishai with Reyhan, Last of the Abzan. Ishai is there just for colours and occasionally to sacrifice to another creature. Ishai only grows on opponents turns, so it won't win out of nowhere. They will see it coming and prepare. Ishai is much worse than your estimation... Ishai is not a win condition.
In 20 games, yes, maybe Ishai will win one... at least Akiri you can drop a bunch of artifacts and win out of nowhere. At least Akiri is two mana and not 4. I also don't think you need two beaters... because then you should be focusing on equipment.
I don't like going four-color because then it tends to just become goodstuff instead of having a coherent theme. Artifacts in particular already have a lot of support in just about every color but green and so a fourth color seems extraneous. Plus the manabase gets really expensive and I don't like switching out cards between decks all the time, nor is my meta competitive enough that I need to (e.g. Rootgrapple sees play in non-treefolk decks).
Also I just don't like Silas Renn much, which is weird because I like UB and I like artifacts.
That said, I am leaning towards Ishai just for all the quality-of-life artifact cards like Thoughtcast and Artificer's Epiphany in addition to all the neat legendaries and whatnot. I think I'll go with that.
Not sure how much you care bout colors because this would put you in 4, but what about Silas Renn, Seeker Adept... Get those artifacts back, add the two best draw colors. You can use things like Nihil Spellbomb as removal and card advantage, throw in Salvaging Station to get back your baubles and spellbombs.
*grave hate, not removal
Silas does add a lot of options, including artifact synergies. Since OP is playing artifacts, four colors shouldn't be that hard. Just limit your number of cards with more than one or two mana of one color in their mana cost. (Two gives you hard counters.) You could also go all-in with nonbasic lands, and then get hated out with Back to Basics or similar.
I'd say Ishai has one flaw: You have two commanders who want to be Voltron commanders. So you have to remember only one can. Extra bookkeeping.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Thrasios. Load up on Mana rocks to make Akiri big and use their mana to fuel CA via Thrasios. No such thing as a bad hand there.
If you are dead set against 4 color, or want the artifacts to be more durdly and less streamlined (Akiri plus Thrasios wants to drop a bunch of rocks quickly, with other artifacts as support), then I'd recommend Tymna. You said you want to turn creatures sideways and Tymna supports that. If you are trying to be more controlling, Ishai gets you blue and I thinks that's worth it even if he's slow.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Ishai gives you a flying blocker option. Kraum does the same for a higher cost (but bigger body and with haste), and like Dunharrow said, can draw you cards as well.
I play Tymna/Akiri artifacts and I think it is a really fun and dynamic deck. In Mardu you can create a lot of synergy through Marionette Master + Pia’s Revolution / Athreos + sac outlets. Tymna is also the far better general and has a lot of synergy with Akiri coming down on turn 2 to attack on turn 3.
As an artifact matters color blue offers more power but the black cards offer the better synergy.
I bought all the C16 decks, so price isn't much of a concern for the actual commanders. Part of the reason I want to make partners is that they're sitting around collecting dust at this point.
Thrasios. Load up on Mana rocks to make Akiri big and use their mana to fuel CA via Thrasios. No such thing as a bad hand there.
Really neat idea, but I'm definitely not wanting to go four-color. Besides, I've already made plans to buddy up Thrasios with Ludevic in my Temur Polymorph deck.
Ishai gives you a flying blocker option. Kraum does the same for a higher cost (but bigger body and with haste), and like Dunharrow said, can draw you cards as well.
I had considered Kraum, but I imagine that 90% of the time Ishai is going to be the one with the bigger body. Even if he dies and starts from 0 counters a couple times, it'll only take one turn rotation before he's probably 4/4 or bigger. That said, Kraum does give cards, and Akiri already handles the beatdown aspect.
My concern is that, in a non-voltron strategy, I don't think Kraum can reasonably get there alone. But Ishai can if he's not dealt with. If it's cards I want then Tymna is probably the better choice.
Honestly, I think I'd try both. Mardu vs. Jeskai artifacts are pretty different. My casual artifact Jeskai deck would win with fun stuff like Saheeli's Artistry and Moltensteel Dragon...and I know it would be so different if I tried the same thing with black and what seems like, to me, a more competitive second general.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
That's why I put Ludevic in the Polymorph deck; he occasionally draws some cards, but mostly he's a cheap commander that goes back into the command zone when I polymorph him into one of the big bads in my otherwise-creatureless deck.
Because turning himself into some god-forsaken monstrosity seems like something Ludevic should actually do.
Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker
or
Tymna the Weaver
The focus is on artifacts in general as opposed to equipment, although there will be some select few equipment cards. My meta is not particularly competitive so which one is stronger is not a big factor.
My artifact decks tend to be a bit durdly and not accomplish a lot, so the idea of Ishai would be to just have two separate partner commanders who like to turn sideways in order to end games. I think Ishai is a bit underappreciated as a partner, and I like that he's a low-maintenance threat who gets big on his own and comes with evasion. Plus, cool art. Blue is also undoubtedly the better artifact color and lets me include goodies like Sai, Master Thopterist, Storm the Vault, Whirler Rogue, and Padeem, Consul of Innovation.
But Tymna is a tried and true card advantage monster, and I like the idea of opening almost every game consistently with T1 artifact, T2 Akiri, T3 Tymna and swing for a card. I don't need the deck to run like a well-oiled machine, but it is nice to at least be able to play every game and not get mana screwed too often. Akiri is already a beater, so arguably Ishai is redundant. Black also gets me all that amazing Mardu removal along with Cranial Plating. Tymna is also an incentive to include more creatures which might let me close out games faster.
Does anyone have any first-hand experience with Ishai? I like him a lot in theory but I'm curious how he works out in practice. For that matter does anyone have experience with Akiri//Tymna? I seem to recall that's a popular pairing.
- Rabid Wombat
Because they are both good, but in different ways.
I do have a Akiri, Line-Slinger and Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker deck, but I literally using them for the color pairing, as opposed to synergy. Jeskai has some of the most limited commander selections in the color pie, so this was out of limited selection, rather than being a good combination.
But Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker is pretty excellent at being a win condition. The nice thing about him is if you don't even need to build around him, you can just cast him out and let opponents deal. If they have an answer, fine, he wasn't your game plan anyway. If they don't then he can just end up killing people.
He can be really nice against combo decks that don't look to interact with opponents (i.e. they don't have removal) and you can talk the table into just going wild with casting spells and you can put that player under like a 4 turn clock.
But otherwise it's really if you want to play black or blue?
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
However, for a more general artifact themed deck, I'd lean more towards Ishai. While the card itself probably adds less to the deck than Tymna would - he is a decent wincon, as, if left unanswered, he will grow pretty large, but you've already got one in Akiri - blue has a lot more "artifacts matter" cards than black and so you'll be able to do a lot more with interesting card interactions and have more variety and versatility rather than being tied to going all in on commander damage.
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
Tymna is abetter choice than Ishai. I play Ishai with Reyhan, Last of the Abzan. Ishai is there just for colours and occasionally to sacrifice to another creature. Ishai only grows on opponents turns, so it won't win out of nowhere. They will see it coming and prepare. Ishai is much worse than your estimation... Ishai is not a win condition.
In 20 games, yes, maybe Ishai will win one... at least Akiri you can drop a bunch of artifacts and win out of nowhere. At least Akiri is two mana and not 4. I also don't think you need two beaters... because then you should be focusing on equipment.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Also I just don't like Silas Renn much, which is weird because I like UB and I like artifacts.
That said, I am leaning towards Ishai just for all the quality-of-life artifact cards like Thoughtcast and Artificer's Epiphany in addition to all the neat legendaries and whatnot. I think I'll go with that.
Thanks for the input!
- Rabid Wombat
*grave hate, not removal
Silas does add a lot of options, including artifact synergies. Since OP is playing artifacts, four colors shouldn't be that hard. Just limit your number of cards with more than one or two mana of one color in their mana cost. (Two gives you hard counters.) You could also go all-in with nonbasic lands, and then get hated out with Back to Basics or similar.
I'd say Ishai has one flaw: You have two commanders who want to be Voltron commanders. So you have to remember only one can. Extra bookkeeping.
On phasing:
If you are dead set against 4 color, or want the artifacts to be more durdly and less streamlined (Akiri plus Thrasios wants to drop a bunch of rocks quickly, with other artifacts as support), then I'd recommend Tymna. You said you want to turn creatures sideways and Tymna supports that. If you are trying to be more controlling, Ishai gets you blue and I thinks that's worth it even if he's slow.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Bruse Tarl & Kraum, Ludevic's Opus
Mayael the Anima
As an artifact matters color blue offers more power but the black cards offer the better synergy.
BRWC Mardu Shops - Tymna and Akiri Artifacts BRWC
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
I bought all the C16 decks, so price isn't much of a concern for the actual commanders. Part of the reason I want to make partners is that they're sitting around collecting dust at this point.
Really neat idea, but I'm definitely not wanting to go four-color. Besides, I've already made plans to buddy up Thrasios with Ludevic in my Temur Polymorph deck.
I had considered Kraum, but I imagine that 90% of the time Ishai is going to be the one with the bigger body. Even if he dies and starts from 0 counters a couple times, it'll only take one turn rotation before he's probably 4/4 or bigger. That said, Kraum does give cards, and Akiri already handles the beatdown aspect.
My concern is that, in a non-voltron strategy, I don't think Kraum can reasonably get there alone. But Ishai can if he's not dealt with. If it's cards I want then Tymna is probably the better choice.
- Rabid Wombat
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Due to an error at WOTC, Kraum, Ludevic's Opus is the only UR partner.
On phasing:
Because turning himself into some god-forsaken monstrosity seems like something Ludevic should actually do.
- Rabid Wombat