I find myself seriously outgunned most of the time. We have a commander league at the FLGS so it's kinda on the competitive side. I generally run budget decks in commander like Xenagos, God of Revels or Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest and Narset, Enlightened Master. Just seems like in 3-4 player games I never win and rarely even eliminate players. I mostly get locked out by prison decks or combo decks go off.
Are there are any budget decks that can combat these two issues?
What is your list? Pick the deck that is best, and let's work on it.
When you say prison decks, what do you mean?
Pillowfort decks that put up a lot of enchantments that make it impossible for you to attack?
Or stax decks that prevent you from untapping or make your spells to expensive to cast?
Combo decks are hard to deal with on a budget, since the best way to beat them is to either beat them first or lock them out of the game with stax.
The thing is, if you are playing against very powerful top tier decks, you cannot beat them with fair decks.
In any case, we need more info if we are going to try to help you.
I don't like Chaos imps. Atarka, World Render is usually played with Xenagos since it hits for 24 after Xenagos' pump.
You could definitely find room for more double strike -Savageborn Hydra for example.
You also should be running Scavenging Ooze and probably some other graveyard hate. Chaos Warp and Beast Within can help you stop a combo from deploying or can get rid of a key prison piece. Bane of Progress and Reclamation Sage should also be good at disrupting your opponents.
Do the two avatars ever get played at their discounted prices? I have never seen them get played in EDH and I do not really see the upside.
Finally, I would play Savage Ventmaw. Really good with Hellkite Charger.
Just as a suggestion, I would make your deck helmed by Ruric Thar. While he is a removal magnet, I've noticed in a few of the cutthroat metas I've played in that he tends to stop the game for noncreature heavy decks because no one wants to take it to the dome for getting rid of him. Might be worth trying.
Prowling Serpopard is only a buck and could help if you're seeing your stuff get countered a lot.
Dragonlair Spider gives you some incremental advantage against your opponents.
I'll second Ruric Thar as being a certified pain in the ass. Even just removing him has an awful cost, so if anyone doesn't have immediate removal, he shuts them out.
But following Calamity's suggestion, If you'd consider Krosan Drover, I don't know why you wouldn't consider Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma.
Thanks for the suggestions. I have some of the cards suggested already so I'll try them out first. Krosan Drover and the Goreclaw are definitely on my want list now.
After experiences over the weekend against a Saskia build, I can seriously say Selvala's Stampede is totally nuts. In a super aggro build (and what Saskia isnt?) it does crazy work.
Also, from first hand experience, Wave of Vitriol can be absolutely crushing. I run it in my Nissa build. It's fairly common for 3+ colour builds with expensive mana bases to just sweep after it resolves. It's non basic land hate, but it's land hate at its most fair, so no one can really complain, but that doesn't make it any less brutal.
I'll also second Ruric as a right pain in the ass. A good build can really leave bruises. He's in the right colours to still get some decent abilities attached to creatures, so you don't miss out on ramp, artifact and enchantment removal, pump and such forth. But obviously it's the punishment that makes him a solid commander - getting rid of him is costly, and there are a ton of ways to protect him. A lot of people just run him with tons of high impact creatures and Primal Surge, but he's easy enough to build on somewhat of a budget too.
Not to be a buzzkill, but I don't see a ruric thar list having any chance against remotely competitive decks. And creating a good control deck is usually expensive. Probably the actual best option is a cheap combo deck like arcum or yisan.
Not to be a buzzkill, but I don't see a ruric thar list having any chance against remotely competitive decks. And creating a good control deck is usually expensive. Probably the actual best option is a cheap combo deck like arcum or yisan.
I have seen Ruric Thar take down tier one turn 3 combo metas. If a turn 3 combo deck is 25% to win a 4 player game, Ruric Thar is probably more around 10-15%, but absolutely viable.
You play stax cards, Possibility Storm, and ramp into Ruric Thar with a way to protect him. Many combo decks cannot beat this.
Here is an example http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ruric-thar-competitive-your-heart-is-a-muscle/.
The thing is, if you are playing a lot of artifact hate, Blood Moon effects, and a Kikki Jikki combo, you will have a chance against pretty much any tier 1 deck. Stax can always beat combo, and Ruric Thar is well positioned against some other stax decks.
Firstly, it's not budget. Stax is generally pricey. Second, I'm dubious about the win rate. He's already playing gr beat down with Xenagod and it's not good enough. Theoretically anything CAN win a combo meta if the combo decks disrupt each other but I don't think that's a good plan.
My preferred suggestion is political control phelddagrif, but honestly it's kind of a drag blocking everyone else's combos.
It's definitely got a lot stacked against it, but the idea to play disruption (Stax) and combo out with Kikki Jikki is viable. I just think it's more like 1/10 games that you can win vs. 1/4.
Sure, but I think the vibe I'm getting from previous posters is "just put a bunch of ramp and fatties in there and it will work out", which I think is nonsense. I don't see anyone else suggesting stax pieces or more than a couple removal spells (which probably won't even be effective if you're generally tapping out playing expensive creatures). I don't know exactly how competitive his meta is, but these suggestions look very weak in a highly competitive meta, imo. But if it's actually pretty mid-tier it might be fine - but then, so would xenagod, and that's not working for him. So either his xenagos list sucks or he needs to bring out some bigger guns. And I don't think Ruric is a significantly bigger gun.
He also titled the thread "Budget Options", so the sense I (and I'm assuming the others) had was that he was looking for some small upgrades to his current deck list without spending a ton of money to give him a fighting chance in his meta. Even building a completely budget deck from scratch can run between $50-$100, and not everyone has that laying around that they can immediately throw at a deck. Small upgrades to what he has now can continue letting him have fun and other budget ideas can give him things to build towards over time. I don't think anyone promised him that he'd suddenly start winning if he sat down with Ruric Thar at the helm, just that he might get better results short term.
I should have included it before, but my suggestion for a deck to start building towards would be Animar. Even a budget version can be competitive and fun to play, and with the RG base you have you already some solid inclusions. When I get to an actual computer, I'll post a deck list that should be cheap enough to put together through trades and rifling through the .25 cent bin at your lgs.
I find myself seriously outgunned most of the time. We have a commander league at the FLGS so it's kinda on the competitive side. I generally run budget decks in commander like Xenagos, God of Revels or Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest and Narset, Enlightened Master. Just seems like in 3-4 player games I never win and rarely even eliminate players. I mostly get locked out by prison decks or combo decks go off.
Are there are any budget decks that can combat these two issues?
When you say prison decks, what do you mean?
Pillowfort decks that put up a lot of enchantments that make it impossible for you to attack?
Or stax decks that prevent you from untapping or make your spells to expensive to cast?
Combo decks are hard to deal with on a budget, since the best way to beat them is to either beat them first or lock them out of the game with stax.
The thing is, if you are playing against very powerful top tier decks, you cannot beat them with fair decks.
In any case, we need more info if we are going to try to help you.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
1x Avatar of Fury
1x Avatar of Might
1x Blossom Dryad
1x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Borborygmos
1x Borborygmos Enraged
1x Boreal Druid
1x Broken Bond
1x Caller of the Pack
1x Carnage Tyrant
1x Chaos Imps
1x Conquering Manticore
1x Cultivate
1x Cultivate
1x Deus of Calamity
1x Elvish Mystic
1x Farhaven Elf
1x Fireshrieker
1x Flameblast Dragon
25x Forest
1x Forgestoker Dragon
1x Fyndhorn Elder
1x Fyndhorn Elves
1x Garruk's Horde
1x Greenweaver Druid
1x Growing Rites of Itlimoc
1x Growth Spasm
1x Gruul Ragebeast
1x Harrow
1x Hellkite Charger
1x Inquisitor's Flail
1x Khalni Heart Expedition
1x Kodama's Reach
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Mage Slayer
13x Mountain
1x Nature's Lore
1x Palladium Myr
1x Pelakka Wurm
1x Polis Crusher
1x Rampaging Baloths
1x Rampant Growth
1x Rapacious One
1x Relentless Assault
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Search for Tomorrow
1x Seize the Day
1x Shefet Monitor
1x Siege Behemoth
1x Siege Dragon
1x Skarrg Goliath
1x Somberwald Sage
1x Soul of the Harvest
1x Spellbreaker Behemoth
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Steel Leaf Champion
1x Strionic Resonator
1x Thunderfoot Baloth
1x Tyrant's Familiar
1x World at War
1x Xenagos, God of Revels
1x Yavimaya Elder
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
I also see you're running basic lands only. Traverse the Outlands, Borderland Explorer, Boundless Realms, Collective Voyage, Explosive Vegetation, Far Wanderings, Peregrination
Wave of Vitriol to clear the field.
- Terramorphic Expanse
- Mountain Valley
- Evolving Wilds
- Gruul Turf
- Command Tower
- Karplusan Forest
- Skarrg, the Rage Pits
- Rootbound Crag
EDIT: Your mana production could also use a little boost.You could definitely find room for more double strike -Savageborn Hydra for example.
You also should be running Scavenging Ooze and probably some other graveyard hate. Chaos Warp and Beast Within can help you stop a combo from deploying or can get rid of a key prison piece.
Bane of Progress and Reclamation Sage should also be good at disrupting your opponents.
Do the two avatars ever get played at their discounted prices? I have never seen them get played in EDH and I do not really see the upside.
Finally, I would play Savage Ventmaw. Really good with Hellkite Charger.
Voyaging Satyr is better than Blossom Dryad. Both are better if you find a way to play Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in your deck.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Prowling Serpopard is only a buck and could help if you're seeing your stuff get countered a lot.
Dragonlair Spider gives you some incremental advantage against your opponents.
Krosan Drover is a great cost reducer.
Decimator of the Provinces can be a decent budget option for Craterhoof.
I'll second Ruric Thar as being a certified pain in the ass. Even just removing him has an awful cost, so if anyone doesn't have immediate removal, he shuts them out.
But following Calamity's suggestion, If you'd consider Krosan Drover, I don't know why you wouldn't consider Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma.
Also, from first hand experience, Wave of Vitriol can be absolutely crushing. I run it in my Nissa build. It's fairly common for 3+ colour builds with expensive mana bases to just sweep after it resolves. It's non basic land hate, but it's land hate at its most fair, so no one can really complain, but that doesn't make it any less brutal.
I'll also second Ruric as a right pain in the ass. A good build can really leave bruises. He's in the right colours to still get some decent abilities attached to creatures, so you don't miss out on ramp, artifact and enchantment removal, pump and such forth. But obviously it's the punishment that makes him a solid commander - getting rid of him is costly, and there are a ton of ways to protect him. A lot of people just run him with tons of high impact creatures and Primal Surge, but he's easy enough to build on somewhat of a budget too.
Good call, totally forgot about that guy and he's super cheap to boot at only $1.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I have seen Ruric Thar take down tier one turn 3 combo metas. If a turn 3 combo deck is 25% to win a 4 player game, Ruric Thar is probably more around 10-15%, but absolutely viable.
You play stax cards, Possibility Storm, and ramp into Ruric Thar with a way to protect him. Many combo decks cannot beat this.
Here is an example http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ruric-thar-competitive-your-heart-is-a-muscle/.
The thing is, if you are playing a lot of artifact hate, Blood Moon effects, and a Kikki Jikki combo, you will have a chance against pretty much any tier 1 deck. Stax can always beat combo, and Ruric Thar is well positioned against some other stax decks.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Firstly, it's not budget. Stax is generally pricey. Second, I'm dubious about the win rate. He's already playing gr beat down with Xenagod and it's not good enough. Theoretically anything CAN win a combo meta if the combo decks disrupt each other but I don't think that's a good plan.
My preferred suggestion is political control phelddagrif, but honestly it's kind of a drag blocking everyone else's combos.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
It's definitely got a lot stacked against it, but the idea to play disruption (Stax) and combo out with Kikki Jikki is viable. I just think it's more like 1/10 games that you can win vs. 1/4.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I should have included it before, but my suggestion for a deck to start building towards would be Animar. Even a budget version can be competitive and fun to play, and with the RG base you have you already some solid inclusions. When I get to an actual computer, I'll post a deck list that should be cheap enough to put together through trades and rifling through the .25 cent bin at your lgs.
1 Shrieking Drake
1 Man-o'-War
1 Dream Stalker
1 Temur Sabertooth
1 Ancestral Statue
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Wood Elves
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Rattleclaw Mystic
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Somberwald Sage
1 Embodiment of Spring
1 Growing Rites of Itlimoc
1 Siren Stormtamer
1 Mystic Snake
1 Draining Whelk
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Duplicant
1 Nantuko Vigilante
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Caustic Caterpillar
1 Sylvok Replica
1 Den Protector
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Voidmage Apprentice
1 Brutalizer Exarch
1 Meteor Golem
1 Disruptive Pitmage
1 Chromeshell Crab
1 Willbender
1 Voidmage Husher
1 Clone
1 Peregrine Drake
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Greenwarden of Murasa
1 Panharmonicon
1 Abundance
1 Lifecrafter's Bestiary
1 Tishana, Voice of Thunder
1 Raven Familiar
1 Fierce Empath
1 Vizier of the Menagerie
1 Mulldrifter
1 Sages of the Anima
1 Primordial Sage
1 Soul of the Harvest
1 Riverwise Augur
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Sphinx of Uthuun
1 Riptide Survivor
1 Ruric Thar, The Unbowed
1 Maelstrom Wanderer
1 Nullstone Gargoyle
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Thunderfoot Baloth
1 Decimator of the Provinces
1 Forgotten Ancient
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Opal Palace
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Shivan Reef
1 Llanowar Reborn
1 Halimar Depths
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Gruul Turf
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Sheltered Thicket
1 Cinder Glade
1 Vivid Creek
1 Vivid Crag
1 Vivid Grove
3 Mountain
8 Forest
8 Island