So Demon of Dark Schemes is a card I do not see a lot of people use very often, despite myself using it a lot. I run it in Chainer, Meren, and Ghave because it has a lot of utility in all of those builds. I can understand if someone is building some super competitive deck that they might leave out the Demon due to his restrictive mana cost and his "Energy Hungry" ability, but I guess I feel like this card has been an allstar in many games that I have played him in.
I just wanted to ask the general populace of the forum about their experiences using this guy!
I've used him in a couple of builds. He's been ok - to be honest I expected better results from him than I got, so I don't currently run him in anything. I tried him in Thraximundar, Ghave, Chainer, and he just wasn't a good fit in any of them.
That being said, there's a place for every card and I don't by any stretch think it's a bad card, it just didn't fit well in my builds.
The energy requirement makes him difficult to really use well. A lot of times he ends up being the only source of energy for his ability which means 4 creatures need to die with him on the field in order to resurrect anything which is not very easy on top of being a 6 drop. With how difficult it is to abuse his ressurect it seems like Massacre Wurm is just a better option in general.
The energy requirement makes him difficult to really use well. A lot of times he ends up being the only source of energy for his ability which means 4 creatures need to die with him on the field in order to resurrect anything which is not very easy on top of being a 6 drop. With how difficult it is to abuse his ressurect it seems like Massacre Wurm is just a better option in general.
I don't think anyone could debate that, but without a reprint I'd still prefer the $2NZD option over $15NZD for the wurm.
I think the reanimation thing is probably less of an issue than you're thinking, though - if you're looking for a Rise of the Dark Realms, clearly you're going to be disappointed. But his ETB, with reasonable timing, should give you enough energy to grab at least one juicy reanimation target. And then his static ability keeps it rolling in for any death. Its costly reanimation, but not unusable.
I know for my Dralnu reanimator, I'm not interested in a board full of threats, I just want one or two decent targets to bind down the board or put some pressure on. This guy isn't perfect, but he's far from totally unusable. Granted, Massacre Wurm probably is a better finisher with the bleed effect. Demon you just need more impetus over and above what the card itself offers.
Edit: It isn't the be all and end all, but DODS does have evasion where MW has none. That's not nothing, and there's times that will count for a lot.
I've seen him run in an Athreos build focused on demons and Shadowborn Apostles. He got some good value there, keeping most of the opposing decks at bay.
I love the Demon of Dank Memes, I use him in my Gonti ETB effect deck with Closet, Panharnomicon, stacking up the ETB effect does well if you can trigger it a couple of times at once.
I like him a LOT more than I do Massacre Wurm because in general he fits into MBC and black reanimator strategies a lot better than the wurm does. Massacre Wurm is great in the "what if my opponent has like 10+ tokens" but really I feel like that situation comes up so rarely that the power of picking up the energy and being able to play to your decks strengths (reanimation) is so much stronger than splashing about a bit of damage.
Overall, I think he is fairly cool. The problem I generally have is that -2/-2 isn't always flexible enough and it is a 6 drop creature. I often end up cutting him because I get concerned that it might not be flexible enough for my needs as well as watching my curve. That all said though, I like the effect and if you end up in playing black with a lot of removal and situational board control it can be really good. There is also the option to sacrifice and rez him in the same turn to stack up his effect bigger but it takes the right deck to have access to doing that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
With how difficult it is to abuse his ressurect it seems like Massacre Wurm is just a better option in general.
Being a flier is often extremely relevant, and most of the time when you cast the Demon, you're doing it into a board of several creatures that will die to his ETB. Even if you only ever get one reanimation activation out of him, you've likely gotten pretty good value.
Good card. Like many Black beaters in the format, comes with a lot of punch in a small package. I have used him in a Ravos Soultender deck along with other creatures with defensive ETBs. He wasn’t top of the pack there, but was a great second fiddle to mount up pressure on my side.
Two things make him better, kill spells and recursion. Kill spells to get more energy, and recursion so you can stockpile some energy and bring him back later to use it.
I don't have any decks that would benefit from him... considering I have 16 decks, I think it speaks volumes.
First, the -2/-2 is symmetrical. So, it is not very good in a deck that plays a lot of small creatures.
Second, the reanimation is unreliable, since it only works if your opponents play enough creatures.
He's OK in Ghave because you're going to be sacrificing a lot of saproling tokens; in fact, it's highly unlikely that opponents' creatures will be dying more than yours, just because you can make and kill one of your creatures for 2 and will likely have more creatures than your opponents anyway. He also has flying, which tends to be a weakness in that kind of token deck.
If at all possible, you can have both, since you're going to ramp a lot. But if I had to pick one, I'd pick the demon, just because I already have access to some five different ways to do chip damage for each token I sac.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I am playing Massacre Wurm in Karador as a token killer. I have not gotten to double tap on the ETB of Massacre Wurm, however I do see an abundance of tokens + Craterhoof Behemoth. Good way to soften up the field in an attrition deck.
I like Massacre Wurm better because I really don't need the reanimate, I like the bleed effect more.
Night Incarnate is a very tempting substitute because it cost less mana and hits larger creatures. Evoke in Karador is tech as well. Will ponder...
It seems in all the discussion that Massacre Wurm and Demon of Dark Schemes aren't quite as comparable as one would think. Sure, they both hit token armies, but their second abilities really are quite different in intention and application.
DoDS isn't really a finisher, to my mind. It seems to be it would work well in a grindy control/reanimator build, and in a vacuum doesn't close out a game. Could be useful as a piece of reanimator synergy, but won't end a game on its own and is quite dependent on your deck and your meta.
MW is a finisher, and if your timing is good should close out games shortly after resolution. In a vacuum needs very little else to win, but doesn't necessarily have synergy with any other cards particularly. Doesn't really need that though, it's good enough to not need support.
So it seems to be one of those cards that needs a niche slot in a reasonably specific deck to perform well. It's not a 'slot in to every deck' sort of card, but could have a big impact in the right place.
I just wanted to ask the general populace of the forum about their experiences using this guy!
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
That being said, there's a place for every card and I don't by any stretch think it's a bad card, it just didn't fit well in my builds.
I don't think anyone could debate that, but without a reprint I'd still prefer the $2NZD option over $15NZD for the wurm.
I think the reanimation thing is probably less of an issue than you're thinking, though - if you're looking for a Rise of the Dark Realms, clearly you're going to be disappointed. But his ETB, with reasonable timing, should give you enough energy to grab at least one juicy reanimation target. And then his static ability keeps it rolling in for any death. Its costly reanimation, but not unusable.
I know for my Dralnu reanimator, I'm not interested in a board full of threats, I just want one or two decent targets to bind down the board or put some pressure on. This guy isn't perfect, but he's far from totally unusable. Granted, Massacre Wurm probably is a better finisher with the bleed effect. Demon you just need more impetus over and above what the card itself offers.
Edit: It isn't the be all and end all, but DODS does have evasion where MW has none. That's not nothing, and there's times that will count for a lot.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
Great brawl card, borderline auto-include, and definitely can warp games in casual edh circles too. Not exactly high-tier competitive of course.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Overall, I think he is fairly cool. The problem I generally have is that -2/-2 isn't always flexible enough and it is a 6 drop creature. I often end up cutting him because I get concerned that it might not be flexible enough for my needs as well as watching my curve. That all said though, I like the effect and if you end up in playing black with a lot of removal and situational board control it can be really good. There is also the option to sacrifice and rez him in the same turn to stack up his effect bigger but it takes the right deck to have access to doing that.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Minor point, sure, but those life loss triggers can add up quick (it seems like this happens each game someone resolves the Wurm in my group).
Also the demon is not awful with Aetherworks Marvel in the right deck.
Two things make him better, kill spells and recursion. Kill spells to get more energy, and recursion so you can stockpile some energy and bring him back later to use it.
First, the -2/-2 is symmetrical. So, it is not very good in a deck that plays a lot of small creatures.
Second, the reanimation is unreliable, since it only works if your opponents play enough creatures.
Am I a reanimator deck? Then there are much more reliable cards than this.
Am I a control deck? Then why am I paying 6 mana for a -2/-2 effect?
Therefore, I think Night Incarnate or Yahenni's Expertise are better options, neverminding Massacre Wurm, Toxic Deluge, Decree of Pain...
I am sure there are decks where the card shines... I just think it is a lot more niche than you think.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
If at all possible, you can have both, since you're going to ramp a lot. But if I had to pick one, I'd pick the demon, just because I already have access to some five different ways to do chip damage for each token I sac.
On phasing:
I like Massacre Wurm better because I really don't need the reanimate, I like the bleed effect more.
Night Incarnate is a very tempting substitute because it cost less mana and hits larger creatures. Evoke in Karador is tech as well. Will ponder...
DoDS isn't really a finisher, to my mind. It seems to be it would work well in a grindy control/reanimator build, and in a vacuum doesn't close out a game. Could be useful as a piece of reanimator synergy, but won't end a game on its own and is quite dependent on your deck and your meta.
MW is a finisher, and if your timing is good should close out games shortly after resolution. In a vacuum needs very little else to win, but doesn't necessarily have synergy with any other cards particularly. Doesn't really need that though, it's good enough to not need support.
So it seems to be one of those cards that needs a niche slot in a reasonably specific deck to perform well. It's not a 'slot in to every deck' sort of card, but could have a big impact in the right place.