Recently i got persuaded by my playgroup to join in a casual kitchen table commander event.
The format is new to all of us and we've all been brewing like crazy to build a casual deck to play against each other. I choose Breed Lethality since it just got reprinted and looks like a great fit for a lot of cards i allready owned. I'm very exited.
Now, after final tuning, i have a theoretical question about the manabase (fetches, shocks, filters, tango's, basics, utility spells and rocks/dorks).
I count 2 spells/rocks for a land
I count 3 dorks for a land
Currently i'm at 37 land, 4 spells, 5 rocks and 1 dork.
Resulting in a total of 41 mana sources rounded down.
The avg.cmc is 3,3 counting X spells as 2cmc minimum the curve tops at 4cmc and the most of my ramp is in the 2cmc slot. Only 2 3cmc rocks (synergy).
The question: If I swap one basic Forest for Dryad Arbor and cut another land for Green Sun's Zenith (both at my disposal) would this result in the same amount of mana sources early game but gaining the tutor late game?
Side question: Would the more explosive start be worth it over the fixing? Double green plus whatever extra colour(s) i get on first drop?
A lot of it depends on your deck. If you have a lot of cards with GG in their mana cost, it can be, though that also makes an argument for more fixing.
The other question is, how often wipes are played in your meta. If wipes are played often enough, Arbor can die as soon as they have a wipe (and this includes something like Pyroclasm or Pestilence, and especially Night of Souls' Betrayal).
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Cutting a forest for Dryad Armor isn't too bad. You'd have a land vulnerable to most creature board wipes and Arbor is subject to summoning sickness, but on the other hand it can also chump block if you need it to, and if you're playing Atraxa you're potentially able to put +1/+1 counters on Arbor and proliferate them with your commander.
Cutting a land for GSZ, however, does not result in the same number of early-game mana sources. In fact, it results in less. T1 Forest, GSZ for Dryad Arbor feels great, but cutting a land to be able to do that doesn't increase your ability to generate mana. There are very few spells you can cut a land for and have mana parity, and GSZ is not one of them, even if you're running Arbor.
A lot of it depends on your deck. If you have a lot of cards with GG in their mana cost, it can be, though that also makes an argument for more fixing.
The other question is, how often wipes are played in your meta. If wipes are played often enough, Arbor can die as soon as they have a wipe (and this includes something like Pyroclasm or Pestilence, and especially Night of Souls' Betrayal).
I do have a lot of GG spells. The deck is mainly GG/UU with a singleton WW and a black splash.
I have no idea of my meta since we're all new to the format so I don't know what my friends will bring.
Cutting a forest for Dryad Armor isn't too bad. You'd have a land vulnerable to most creature board wipes and Arbor is subject to summoning sickness, but on the other hand it can also chump block if you need it to, and if you're playing Atraxa you're potentially able to put +1/+1 counters on Arbor and proliferate them with your commander.
Cutting a land for GSZ, however, does not result in the same number of early-game mana sources. In fact, it results in less. T1 Forest, GSZ for Dryad Arbor feels great, but cutting a land to be able to do that doesn't increase your ability to generate mana. There are very few spells you can cut a land for and have mana parity, and GSZ is not one of them, even if you're running Arbor.
Thanks for this reply, i guess it would be better to cut Rampant Growth then and keep the land count at 37. Both lands etb tapped so no loss of tempo there. Only if i draw into Dryad Arbor and theoretically loss of fixing and vulnerability to (mass)removal.
Would this be wort the late game tutor ability you think?
My golden standard for lands is 36 + the average cmc of the cards in your deck -/- 1 for every 4 ramp cards. You seem to err on running less which is ok, but has often led to mana problems. Remember, you dot just want to make your 4th land drop on turn 4 but also the 6th on turn 6 in this format.
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
I play Atraxa Superfriends and I run 36 lands plus about 15 ramp spells. This is quite a bit of ramp and is maybe a little excessive. I also run lots of good non-basic lands to help with fixing so all of my ramp is focused on synergy.
I like the 2 drop ramp spells as they can facilitate a turn 3 Atraxa. Having the option to start explosively is nice when the game allows for it. You will have to judge how your meta handles this.
If you have time check out my Atraxa primer. There is a link in my signature and its on the list of primers. There is a ton of info in there about all sorts of Atraxa strategies.
My golden standard for lands is 36 + the average cmc of the cards in your deck -/- 1 for every 4 ramp cards. You seem to err on running less which is ok, but has often led to mana problems. Remember, you dot just want to make your 4th land drop on turn 4 but also the 6th on turn 6 in this format.
I tend to go for 40 - 1 per 2 ramp spells. An 8x8 deck with one of those categories being ramp works out to the same thing. (36 lands, plus 8 categories with 8 cards each.)
Thanks for the help everybody. I eventually decided to cut Forest+Rampant Growth for Drayd Arbor+GSZ. Mana was as good as can be I feel, but have never used the combo nor the tutor
For what it's worth. We had a blast and EDH is definitely a very fun casual format!
I play Atraxa Superfriends and I run 36 lands plus about 15 ramp spells. This is quite a bit of ramp and is maybe a little excessive. I also run lots of good non-basic lands to help with fixing so all of my ramp is focused on synergy.
I like the 2 drop ramp spells as they can facilitate a turn 3 Atraxa. Having the option to start explosively is nice when the game allows for it. You will have to judge how your meta handles this.
If you have time check out my Atraxa primer. There is a link in my signature and its on the list of primers. There is a ton of info in there about all sorts of Atraxa strategies.
Excelent primer, I've seen it during my scouting time I'll post my decklist to participate.
I use Cornucopia, Relic and Crawler als my >2 manaspells. Cornucopia get's out of hand very fast.
My golden standard for lands is 36 + the average cmc of the cards in your deck -/- 1 for every 4 ramp cards. You seem to err on running less which is ok, but has often led to mana problems. Remember, you dot just want to make your 4th land drop on turn 4 but also the 6th on turn 6 in this format.
I tend to go for 40 - 1 per 2 ramp spells. An 8x8 deck with one of those categories being ramp works out to the same thing. (36 lands, plus 8 categories with 8 cards each.)
The 8x8 method is what i used to fine tune the deck. Taking GSZ over Rampant Growth actualy resulted in a better balance between card draw and ramp.
Recently i got persuaded by my playgroup to join in a casual kitchen table commander event.
The format is new to all of us and we've all been brewing like crazy to build a casual deck to play against each other. I choose Breed Lethality since it just got reprinted and looks like a great fit for a lot of cards i allready owned. I'm very exited.
Now, after final tuning, i have a theoretical question about the manabase (fetches, shocks, filters, tango's, basics, utility spells and rocks/dorks).
I count 2 spells/rocks for a land
I count 3 dorks for a land
Currently i'm at 37 land, 4 spells, 5 rocks and 1 dork.
Resulting in a total of 41 mana sources rounded down.
The avg.cmc is 3,3 counting X spells as 2cmc minimum the curve tops at 4cmc and the most of my ramp is in the 2cmc slot. Only 2 3cmc rocks (synergy).
The question: If I swap one basic Forest for Dryad Arbor and cut another land for Green Sun's Zenith (both at my disposal) would this result in the same amount of mana sources early game but gaining the tutor late game?
Side question: Would the more explosive start be worth it over the fixing? Double green plus whatever extra colour(s) i get on first drop?
Curious to hear how you feel about these cases.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
The other question is, how often wipes are played in your meta. If wipes are played often enough, Arbor can die as soon as they have a wipe (and this includes something like Pyroclasm or Pestilence, and especially Night of Souls' Betrayal).
On phasing:
Cutting a land for GSZ, however, does not result in the same number of early-game mana sources. In fact, it results in less. T1 Forest, GSZ for Dryad Arbor feels great, but cutting a land to be able to do that doesn't increase your ability to generate mana. There are very few spells you can cut a land for and have mana parity, and GSZ is not one of them, even if you're running Arbor.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
I do have a lot of GG spells. The deck is mainly GG/UU with a singleton WW and a black splash.
I have no idea of my meta since we're all new to the format so I don't know what my friends will bring.
Thanks for this reply, i guess it would be better to cut Rampant Growth then and keep the land count at 37. Both lands etb tapped so no loss of tempo there. Only if i draw into Dryad Arbor and theoretically loss of fixing and vulnerability to (mass)removal.
Would this be wort the late game tutor ability you think?
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
I like the 2 drop ramp spells as they can facilitate a turn 3 Atraxa. Having the option to start explosively is nice when the game allows for it. You will have to judge how your meta handles this.
Here are some good ramp spells for Atraxa.
If you have time check out my Atraxa primer. There is a link in my signature and its on the list of primers. There is a ton of info in there about all sorts of Atraxa strategies.
GWUBAtraxa, Praetor's Voice PrimerGWUB
GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
For what it's worth. We had a blast and EDH is definitely a very fun casual format!
Excelent primer, I've seen it during my scouting time I'll post my decklist to participate.
I use Cornucopia, Relic and Crawler als my >2 manaspells. Cornucopia get's out of hand very fast.
The 8x8 method is what i used to fine tune the deck. Taking GSZ over Rampant Growth actualy resulted in a better balance between card draw and ramp.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -