I wondered recently why all of my decks have a bunch of slots devoted to various forms of control, including multiple sweepers. After thinking some about it, I realized that a college friend moving back to my state changed the meta in our playgroup, requiring more removal. My other friends are lazy deckbuilders, and so rarely pack enough removal to stand on their own.
So while I hear advice all the time saying “You don’t have to have an answer to everything, you have two other players to band with”, in my case I don’t. If I don’t produce a response to my friend going off, then we lose. So I pack the most control of anyone in my group.
Is this common out in the LGS for people to build lazy, only to realize that the whole table is losing because no one had packed a response?
Just an idea, but if the big new threat to your table was a guy playing scary aggressive creatures requiring more removal, instead of packing more sweepers, why not play propaganda style of cards so he goes after the other opponents first? There are a bunch of cards you can play (in hand or display on board, even a baleful strix), that make you an unappetizing target to attack. You would be dedicating card space to answering multiple opponents instead of just one.
In my own groups, the variance on what the decks all do is a bit too hectic to always have answers. Everyone owns a handful of options, some aggro, some combo, some control, etc. We try very hard not to change our play options after seeing who-picks-what. So some games a pair of aggro opponents will gang up and rush everyone else, and some games a combo player wins before anything relevant is played. Sometimes there is an answer, sometimes there isn't. That's not helpful, I know
Unless you devote an inordinate amount of space to answers, the odds of having appropriate removal at the appropriate time more than once or twice in a game isn't all that great, especially if the threat isn't a creature. For example, in my Baral deck, I run:
If you're looking to handle a threatening land in Commander, I think most people would agree those are the best tools for the job. That said, I often mull their removal because the odds of having one at the same time as my opponent plays a threatening target is pretty slim.
In my case, I run 43 instants and 14 sorceries, so my answers for everything else are pretty Johnny-on-the-spot, but Baral is a corner case in deck construction and can't be held as any sort of norm. Even here, I can't answer every threat every turn because of mana constraints.
I think it's important that every deck in a multiplayer game come ready to do their part to keep runaway decks in check.
I think you will find that stronger decks typically have quite a bit of removal. For your situation, I prefer cards that are in play or it is otherwise clear that you have, such as seal of doom, because your opponent then might go somewhere else, ecspecially if he knows those guys does not have removal. Btw. if you want answers to lands, dust bowl is mean.
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@Dunharrow: Well, I usually am the aggro player, ramping into the big threats reasonably fast for my group. This is why I scratch my head at my friends not packing more answers. It’s not like they don’t know what’s coming. All but one of my decks have 30+ creatures. Most decks have about 15-20 hard answers, whereas Zegana has about 25 answers and 25 creatures. I make sure all the decks can sweep, but also deal with spot needs, and seek to have answers for all the card types somewhere in the deck.
@Reaper9889: oh yeah, Dustbowl is indeed. I have that in my Dune vorthos build.
@BaronCappucino: So the numbers above probably seem anemic, but this is stocked high for my group. I get I can’t stop everything, and sometimes I do get beaten. For example, I got hammered one game by Varolz fueled by a Phyrexian Dreadnought, making him massive. Next game, lol. By comparison, the same person that had the Varolz deck also has a Selvala deck where I have not seen him ever destroy anything I can recall. He’s got some good threats in there, but seems to like trick plays. Late in a game, I stymied his untargetable Blazing Archon with Sandwurm Convergence that he never even indicated he had anything in his deck to deal with.
@Macabre: I actually tend to put in fewer artifact/enchantments (I do very selectively) because I pack mass destruction specifically for them and instead use creature and spell based ramp so I’m not beholden to keep those card types on the table. I don’t run excessive sweepers, but I do include them to get more than incremental card advantage and deal with multiple threats at a time. I guess I just have a strange group of friends, but that’s why I was asking if many folks out there build as lazy. Shoot, if I start playing stores, I’ll have to overhaul my decks, too, to adjust to the new meta.
So while I hear advice all the time saying “You don’t have to have an answer to everything, you have two other players to band with”, in my case I don’t. If I don’t produce a response to my friend going off, then we lose. So I pack the most control of anyone in my group.
Is this common out in the LGS for people to build lazy, only to realize that the whole table is losing because no one had packed a response?
In my own groups, the variance on what the decks all do is a bit too hectic to always have answers. Everyone owns a handful of options, some aggro, some combo, some control, etc. We try very hard not to change our play options after seeing who-picks-what. So some games a pair of aggro opponents will gang up and rush everyone else, and some games a combo player wins before anything relevant is played. Sometimes there is an answer, sometimes there isn't. That's not helpful, I know
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
If you're looking to handle a threatening land in Commander, I think most people would agree those are the best tools for the job. That said, I often mull their removal because the odds of having one at the same time as my opponent plays a threatening target is pretty slim.
In my case, I run 43 instants and 14 sorceries, so my answers for everything else are pretty Johnny-on-the-spot, but Baral is a corner case in deck construction and can't be held as any sort of norm. Even here, I can't answer every threat every turn because of mana constraints.
I think it's important that every deck in a multiplayer game come ready to do their part to keep runaway decks in check.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
@Reaper9889: oh yeah, Dustbowl is indeed. I have that in my Dune vorthos build.
@BaronCappucino: So the numbers above probably seem anemic, but this is stocked high for my group. I get I can’t stop everything, and sometimes I do get beaten. For example, I got hammered one game by Varolz fueled by a Phyrexian Dreadnought, making him massive. Next game, lol. By comparison, the same person that had the Varolz deck also has a Selvala deck where I have not seen him ever destroy anything I can recall. He’s got some good threats in there, but seems to like trick plays. Late in a game, I stymied his untargetable Blazing Archon with Sandwurm Convergence that he never even indicated he had anything in his deck to deal with.
@Macabre: I actually tend to put in fewer artifact/enchantments (I do very selectively) because I pack mass destruction specifically for them and instead use creature and spell based ramp so I’m not beholden to keep those card types on the table. I don’t run excessive sweepers, but I do include them to get more than incremental card advantage and deal with multiple threats at a time. I guess I just have a strange group of friends, but that’s why I was asking if many folks out there build as lazy. Shoot, if I start playing stores, I’ll have to overhaul my decks, too, to adjust to the new meta.