So the title is kind of self explanatory. I run a low curve, pretty efficient Edgar deck, and it's causing a lot of ire. I'm going up against Jodah goodstuff, Simic Combo, and other fairly tuned decks that stand a reasonable chance of winning, and I'm being asked not to play it.
Personally, I'll go up against the deck because it's a glass cannon. I guess its because it hits early. But you know what you're getting, and its beatable. I beat almost this exact deck yesterday. If you can sweep, Edgar runs out of answers quite quickly. Besides which, it only becomes overpowered if you don't run answers. I feel like rage quitting is a little silly because it is so VERY prone to disruption that if you're going to complain you should really only blame yourself.
Am I wrong? Am I being too hard? Personally I'd rather go up against this than a tuned combo deck, but I'm receiving enough ire to question it.
I'd really like to get some feedback on this, because it seems like whining, but I don't want to be a jerk, so if it really is universally busted I won't play it.
Seeing as you specified that you're playing in a fairly tuned group, I don't think you should be hated out - if the other players feel you're overwhelming, they should look to tinker with their decks first. If they're still encountering problems, there's nothing wrong with them dog-piling the spookiest deck at the table. Because if one opponent doesn't have an answer to the problem, a reasonable next step is to ask the other players what they can do. I dunno, that's what makes sense to me.
Helping someone in my group upgrade the precon lately, and even with minimal upgrades the deck can be a menace early-game. But Edgar Markov has the same problem as any token/aggro strategy - wipe at the right time, and it folds like a deck of cards.
Honestly, I don't see the hype. I mean, Eminence is really strong and Edgar's ability is a lot stronger than it would seem at first, but they're still 1/1's. It's still nowhere near as strong as a typical elf, goblin, or zombie tribal. Edgar, and vamp tribal in general, is forced to rely on a bunch of low cmc and sometimes generally sub-par creatures to make it work. Granted, Vamp tribal has seen a lot of support over the past number of years with Innistrad 2.0 and Ixalan adding to Zendikar and Innistrad's Vamp tribal stuff. Give it a couple more blocks with vamp tribal and it'll be able to compete with Goblins and zombies pretty easily. I don't think anything will ever be able to match Elves in speed and explosiveness.
I just don't think Edgar is worth the hate. From my experience people tend to hate Eminence as an ability as it completely negates the reason to cast your commander. A commander that never needs to hit the battlefield to win a game is really strong. I play Inalla myself, and Eminence is kind of busted with some of the stronger abilities. Stuff like Oloro is completely negligible, but Edgar and Inalla can pull off a win without ever hitting the board.
Hating on one of the few viable aggro decks in the format is maximum angry manbaby tier. It's laughable that someone playing combo is whining about a deck that turns dudes sideways.
That said, if your playgroup is adamant about you not playing it, the only thing you can do is explain to them the deck's weaknesses and hope they adapt.
Is the Edgar deck a vampire tribal deck? I also have one and I have to say, the deck basically folds to a sweeper. Sometimes I just run people over with a good curve of creatures that bring a 1/1 token with them, and sometimes I play a few guys, get sweeped and spend the rest of the game top decking 2 mana 2/1 vampires and wondering why I make poor life decisions. Assuming your deck is anything like mine, I find it hard to believe players with tuned decks can't add a few more sweepers and call it a day.
I can echo the sentiments of all replies thus far. Except 'they're just 1/1's' anyway - obviously I run evasion and anthems. Enough of both. It'll never be as strong as elfball, but in terms of speed it puts zombies to shame and is on a par with Krenko goblins - the only difference is Krenko is more combo oriented.
I mean it really does seem like just butthurt at this point. It's strong early game, sure, but it just seems like bad planning to not run sweepers. Or if not sweepers, a way to survive the first 5-6 turns.
Is the Edgar deck a vampire tribal deck? I also have one and I have to say, the deck basically folds to a sweeper. Sometimes I just run people over with a good curve of creatures that bring a 1/1 token with them, and sometimes I play a few guys, get sweeped and spend the rest of the game top decking 2 mana 2/1 vampires and wondering why I make poor life decisions. Assuming your deck is anything like mine, I find it hard to believe players with tuned decks can't add a few more sweepers and call it a day.
This does kind of encompass it. The trick, I've found, is not to overcommit. Leave something in your hand in preparation for inevitable sweepers to rebuild from, or find some solid draw engines.
It's funny, the last game I played was against Tatyova combo, Jodah goodstuff and Trostani. I got an early Captivating Vampire, and spent three turns not gaining control of Trostani because it's a bit rough. Then Jodah lands Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger. My exact words were 'if you guys don't deal with this, I will'. No one did, so I took it. Makes sense to me. I used it to empty my hand of Bloodline Keeper, Legion Lieutenant and a land. Literally no answers in hand. Then everyone swept. Which is a little childish considering I wasn't the one packing Vorinclex.
I guess I get it. I've had the same treatment from Rhys the Redeemed and Krenko, Mob Boss before, but I always give it at least a reasonable punt to compete. And I try not to give bad vibes out, unless the deck is clearly tuned to a higher level than every other deck being played.
My experience against it in multiplayer would suggest no. It's fine but not scary or anything. I can understand why it's banned in french but in a group it's unreasonable to hate a player out for playing him.
While I don't like Eminence (I personally feel like it goes against the spirit of the Commander Tax, a necessary restrain to the otherwise already pretty-broken concept of the Commander, and yes Derevi also falls under the same category), your situation has really little to do with Edgar's abilities.
Against tall threats you run spot removal.
Against wide threats you run sweepers.
Against combo (and stax I suppose) you run disruption.
Against Hive Mind-Scrambleverse, you flip the table.
Your deck clearly falls into the second category most of the time (well the format is wide enough you can potentially have a deck operate in all 3 modes at different times, albeit less effectively the more types you have) and of all three categories yours is arguably the hardest to counter-protect (not impossible, but your variety in choice and effectiveness is likely the lowest).
I don't even know what to say at this point. If you don't have the answers to any of the three above, either make space for it, or accept your deck has a weakness to that deck's "archetype" (I'm loosely using the term to categorize here). To ask people not to play an "archetype" because you are weak to it is one of silliest things I've heard ("I've no graveyard hate, Karador is therefore not allowed")... but on the other hand EDH is also a social game and it's also not unheard of for a whole meta to isolate itself if they all happened to have the same weakness and chose to outlaw said "Archetype" instead and while it does close off the group/meta to be relatively unfriendly when compared with the overall game/format, it's not completely unreasonable from a certain social aspect viewpoint either - they're not obliged to open up for a single player if they're all enjoying themselves otherwise.
So, really it's a discussion you all need to do - in the whole range of the format your deck is definitely by no means unreasonable, but that has no relevance if the group actively chose to customize their barriers in the first place and honestly who am I (would like to speak for the general public here, but eh) to meddle with the barriers of EDH groups that don't concern me, even if those barriers sound silly to me as someone who just goes with the general basics of the format.
Tuned Edgar decks get out of hand very quickly if left alone. Even less competitively-tuned ones, like my own version (which isn't full of the 1-2 drop Ixalan-block vamps) can produce a lot of pressure very quickly. People should be prepared to run sweepers and small, global effects. Earthquake for 2-3 kills most of what makes tuned Edgar decks work, as does Pestilence or Pyrohemia. Wrath of God and other traditional sweepers can also take out Edgar's hordes pretty quickly if Edgar is tapped out, but watch out if Edgar isn't tapped out, because things like Boros Charm and Rootborn Defenses are out there and fall solidly into Edgar's colors. My own Edgar deck uses tricks like that along with Wrath and Damnation to clear the board of blockers and let Edgar's minions have free reign.
I really don't know why Edgar would be a significant problem in tuned metas. Probably the biggest danger he presents is that it's really cheap to turn the precon into a fairly well-tuned Edgar deck, and more casual-to-middle-of-the-road metagames may find that hard to deal with the speed of even a modestly competitively-built Edgar deck.
People never want to run anything less than a full-on wrath for some reason. I've seen amazing results from my Demon of Dark Schemes, Massacre Wurm, and Yahenni's Expertise. My Mardu Marchesa Madness deck even runs Biting Rain, and as a result I have never had any trouble with elves or merfolk or goblins or vampires when playing a deck with black or red in its colors.
In fact, an Edgar player once called me unfair once for running Ashling the Pilgrim. In fairness to him it was a very casual game where my commander just happened to counter his deck, but he still focused me all game over it and lost anyways.
Also, you should play Mercadia's Downfall if you aren't already. It's hilarious in competitive metas where there are more nonbasics than basics most of the time.
Honestly the Eminence ticks me off enough to make me want to hate him out even past what his threat level is. Derevi and Orolo are bad enough, and now we've got a guy who can make 1/1 tokens of the most relevant creature types even if his spells are countered?
If at the very least the tokens were "1/1 thrall tokens" then I'd be a little more okay, but freaking vampires?
It's less about the power level and more that I hate his Eminence to hell.
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My Decks:
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUBCheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
So, being a fellow Edgar player myself.... I do feel bad if I play it into casual decks and I goldfish. I haven't played mine much lately in part because since the new LGS opened there have been some more casual decks being played and I feel bad if I goldfish too hard.
This said, I think there is always the option to mention that you are going to play him or play a faster deck if you want to give opponents a chance to choose a less casual deck for when they play against it. I have always hated sitting down to play a nice game of mono white or something and I see a glass cannon deck going against me.
Overall, I think its good to have some decks that are a little stronger and there is nothing wrong with playing them some. The question in my mind is how to not play your more competitive decks against your opponents more casual decks. This is something I have struggled with myself though as to how to answer.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I think that players just seem to have an unhealthy amount of hate directed towards Eminence and similar abilities that trigger from the Command Zone. Just the idea that the player gets to do stuff for free and that they cannot interact with it in any reasonable way just really rubs people the wrong way no matter how small the effect. I don't think anyone would care if a player dropped an Ivory Tower on turn 1 and gained two life per turn for the rest of the game, but gaining two life per turn with Oloro, Ageless Ascetic really chaps people's hides... it's the same thing with Edgar Markov in that if the player had to invest a card and some mana to get the effect then people wouldn't care, but giving it to them for free and in a place where they can do little about it makes people angry even though they are just 1/1's.
I for one think it's ridiculous to hate on Edgar Markov. It's an aggro deck, which is probably the one archetype in Commander that everyone seems prepared for (with spot removal, mass removal, and a general plan on how to deal with an opposing army). And it's not like Vampires are that strong of a tribe to begin with; they need all the help they can get in order to even be competitive. Of all the really ridiculous things that you can do in Commander, with all the available synergies and card combinations that can get crazy, Edgar Markov plus cheap vampires seems pretty benign.
Also, you should play Mercadia's Downfall if you aren't already. It's hilarious in competitive metas where there are more nonbasics than basics most of the time.
Secret tech. I like it.
So, being a fellow Edgar player myself.... I do feel bad if I play it into casual decks and I goldfish. I haven't played mine much lately in part because since the new LGS opened there have been some more casual decks being played and I feel bad if I goldfish too hard.
This said, I think there is always the option to mention that you are going to play him or play a faster deck if you want to give opponents a chance to choose a less casual deck for when they play against it. I have always hated sitting down to play a nice game of mono white or something and I see a glass cannon deck going against me.
Overall, I think its good to have some decks that are a little stronger and there is nothing wrong with playing them some. The question in my mind is how to not play your more competitive decks against your opponents more casual decks. This is something I have struggled with myself though as to how to answer.
I do the same. If I wanna game hard, I'll bring out Ghave or Edgar, if I want to play control Bruna or Dralnu, and if I want something that scales to different levels it's likely Nissa. I try to fit in to the group I'm playing against - I don't see it as a win if you're handing beatings downward. And this is part of what has surprised me. I've only ever really brought the deck out against players that I thought could handle it.
Is Edgar Markov worth of hate? yes, eminence is a dumb mechanic that promotes dumb plays.
Is Edgar Markov worth your meta hate? I guess no, combo and cEDH decks can easily beat him.
Can you explain 'dumb plays'? I get how its easily broken, but I don't see that as the case with Edgar. It encourages use of cards that see use in literally no other decks ever, which is nice. And to me it's no more stupid than someone who plays the same tired combos, like Sanguine Exquisite, Athreos Shadowborn cleric and so forth. In fact it's less stupid than these, because there's a TON more disruption that can put Edgar's plan off. It really, really does not take much at all. Sure it's quick, but so is Edric, Spymaster of Trest, elfball, Krenko, Selvala Brostorm, and I don't hear the same complaints.
All this being said, I get that the idea of a commander you don't play is pretty passive for EDH. I don't get the hate for Edgar though, he's no Derevi. Likewise with Oloro, I know there's a lot of hate out there for him, I don't get it. Seems to me people get a bit stung by the Esper combos he can run, but that could be any Esper commander.
Honestly, I don't see the hype. I mean, Eminence is really strong and Edgar's ability is a lot stronger than it would seem at first, but they're still 1/1's. It's still nowhere near as strong as a typical elf, goblin, or zombie tribal. Edgar, and vamp tribal in general, is forced to rely on a bunch of low cmc and sometimes generally sub-par creatures to make it work. Granted, Vamp tribal has seen a lot of support over the past number of years with Innistrad 2.0 and Ixalan adding to Zendikar and Innistrad's Vamp tribal stuff. Give it a couple more blocks with vamp tribal and it'll be able to compete with Goblins and zombies pretty easily. I don't think anything will ever be able to match Elves in speed and explosiveness.
I just don't think Edgar is worth the hate. From my experience people tend to hate Eminence as an ability as it completely negates the reason to cast your commander. A commander that never needs to hit the battlefield to win a game is really strong. I play Inalla myself, and Eminence is kind of busted with some of the stronger abilities. Stuff like Oloro is completely negligible, but Edgar and Inalla can pull off a win without ever hitting the board.
I haven't read all the replies, yet I have to respond to a few misconceptions about Edgar Markov, as someone who plays it a lot myself.
1) A well built Edgar deck won't fold to a board wipe, as I play lots of card draw and protection from board wipes. Dark Prophecy laughs at a board wipe. Necro keeps your hand full at all times. Boros Charm, Rootborn Defense, Teferi's Protection (which came in the deck and no reason not to have it) and Eldrazi Monument all are reasons why you cannot "just play wrath" and watch it crumble. Edgar can protect himself and bounce back easily.
2a) They are not just a bunch of 1/1's. Have you played against a good Edgar deck before? Door of Destinies, Coat of Arms, Glory of Warfare and other such anthems change each "boring 1/1" into a 5/5 or larger in no time. I have had turn two signet (no sol ring action) turn 3 door of destinies, turn 4 cast one drops, turn 5 attack for 56, kill a player, and put 10 commander damage on another.
2b) Again, they are not just 1/1's. Thanks to Purphoros and Malakir Bloodwitch, it is also easy to deal lethal damage or otherwise finish the game. Purphos says, "You had better answer me before I can cast 10 one drops... oh wait, I can attack you with those one drops and kill you before I even need to get to 10."
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I would not say it is the best and most competitive deck in the format, but I feel that the opinions I have read so far have come from people who have not faced a well built Edgar Deck.
Just check out IBSPathfinder's low cmc list and tell me that it isn't good enough.
I have seriously had games where resolving a Boros Charm against a board wipe resulted in the table scooping. Basically, someone else cast Plaguewind for me and they knew the math... time to go to the next game.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
It still seems to me that letting these pumps hit the field unanswered shows a lack of people running answers. Krosan Grip, Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate, Counterspell...these are all readily available and stop the pump for Edgar. There's plenty of other disruption out there, too.
Sure its strong and fast, I just feel like it's not that hard to pack answers for problem Edgar poses.
Counters are normally played to stop combos and game ending spells, or for players to protect their own combos or game ending spells... not to stop an Eldrazi Monument or Door of Destinies. We live in the real world, not theortical world.
Swords and Krosan Grip and other efftect don't stop Purphoros or Malakir Bloodwitch, nor will single target removal. Even when grip or other removal eats Necro or Dark Prohposy, thise don't stop the other forms of card draw the deck has in the form of etb effects or sorcery spells which also quickly refill the hand.
Are you seriously suggesting that a Krosan Grip will be burnt on a Door of Destinies... or a Survial of the Fittist, Foodchain, Mind over Matter and the other really game changing artifacts and enchantments?
Again, in reality, the strength of Edgar is that it HAS to be focused on and hated out by the group... because if it is allowed to run away with the first 4 turns (as other control and combo decks tend to build ramp, card draw, and tutors) then it will hit hard in a single turn.
Finally, as I have said and recomended you take a look at, it is designed to resist and bounce back from wipes.
The reason lesser build fold to wipes is because, as was said before, those lesser decks find themselves "top decking two drops and regretting their life choices" while a good build is sitting on card draw and protection.
Edgar plays Ad Nauseam at end of turn without even trying to combo, then it just takes tons of damage vecause it doesn't care, untaps and draws again, and rebuilds with potential haste depending on what it drew.
Please do not think I am calling it the perfect unbeatable deck, but people really underestimate it when they haven't played against it.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
Any deck that tries to win by having a decent creature board presence, and especially the decks that like to attack, need to ensure that they don't flat out lose to boardwipes to be good at all.
Can you explain 'dumb plays'? I get how its easily broken, but I don't see that as the case with Edgar. It encourages use of cards that see use in literally no other decks ever, which is nice. And to me it's no more stupid than someone who plays the same tired combos, like Sanguine Exquisite, Athreos Shadowborn cleric and so forth. In fact it's less stupid than these, because there's a TON more disruption that can put Edgar's plan off.
Yu get value by doing nothing. You have Edgar sitting in the command zone, doing nothing, and get advantages by doing nothing. You don't have to pay, you don't have to discard. You just cast stuff and get more stuff. Pretty dumb really.
Yeah, i guess that many vampires are underplayed card, but i don't think that casting creatures of a certain tribe in a tribal deck can be called niche deck building and playing.
Had a discussion some weeks ago with an Edgar player. He never wanted to cast Edgar even when he could, because he still got the advantage by not playing him. A 10 minutes discussione followed where me and other players tried to explain to him that in commander your are supposed to cast your commander, sooner or later.
It was really... dumb. And paradoxical.
But the most paradoxical thing was that he had a point. Why trying to actually play and interact with your opponent when you can get things for free?
Your friend isn't getting the most out of his commander then. Edgar has a place for being cast, it just isn't right away.
Can I ask you - do you see goblins with Krenko, Mob Boss or elves with Rhys the Redeemed the same way? Are they stupid? I genuinely am asking, not being facetious.
Can you explain 'dumb plays'? I get how its easily broken, but I don't see that as the case with Edgar. It encourages use of cards that see use in literally no other decks ever, which is nice. And to me it's no more stupid than someone who plays the same tired combos, like Sanguine Exquisite, Athreos Shadowborn cleric and so forth. In fact it's less stupid than these, because there's a TON more disruption that can put Edgar's plan off.
Yu get value by doing nothing. You have Edgar sitting in the command zone, doing nothing, and get advantages by doing nothing. You don't have to pay, you don't have to discard. You just cast stuff and get more stuff. Pretty dumb really.
Yeah, i guess that many vampires are underplayed card, but i don't think that casting creatures of a certain tribe in a tribal deck can be called niche deck building and playing.
Had a discussion some weeks ago with an Edgar player. He never wanted to cast Edgar even when he could, because he still got the advantage by not playing him. A 10 minutes discussione followed where me and other players tried to explain to him that in commander your are supposed to cast your commander, sooner or later.
It was really... dumb. And paradoxical.
But the most paradoxical thing was that he had a point. Why trying to actually play and interact with your opponent when you can get things for free?
I play the deck and agree that it is dumb, but not any more "dumb" than other things you can do in magic.
The storm mechanic is dumb. I used to play Vintage, and the Mean Deck Gifts Tendrils combo. You cast zero and one cost artifacts, pick them back up because of Hurkyl's Recall or rebuild, cast them again, maybe brainstorm or something and then Tendrils for lethat. You didn't do anything but cast mana rocks, pick them up and cast them again and then won.
Dredge decks are dumb. Instead of drawing cards, you just mill yourself and get things into play for free, then sacrifice them for free to get zombies for free, then cast a reanimate card for free to get Flame-Kin Zealot and attack with haste.
Doomsday, even in commander, is dumb. If it resolves, you should win.
Tooth and Nail is dumb. Get any two creature combo and win.
The list goes on and on.
That doesn't excuse nor diminish how dumb Edgard is... but making free 1/1's is far less dumb than what you can do in MtG and Commander.
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That being said, there is a point for and against casting Edgar:
1) Why spend six mana on him when I can spend tat six mana on other things in my hand?
2) I often Cast Edgar in my games because of the cumulative Anthem he gives each turn. He is also a real threat in combat, as he hits the table and swing for 5 first strike damage, or more with other anthems in play. That is enough to win a lot of fights, especially with anthems on the table.
For me, if he eats removal or a double block, then he earned his mana cost. Casting him doesn't cost me a card, but removing him will likely cost you one or more cards (double block for example) and I still keep the +1/+1 counters, which means his anthem didn't go away when he died.
Honestly, Edgard is the first and only agro deck I have ever used in Commander. I am no saying he is the only one that exists, but he gave me an excuse to have one. When you sit down to a four player game and know that you have to chew through 120 combined life points, even though some people will damage themselves and other people do attack each other, that is a lot to ask out of a deck of one and two drops. However, by simply adding a 1/1 tribal token to each tribal creature you cast, that almost impossible uphill battle becomes not only suddenly possible... people begin to complain about how easy it is... and is another reason/reminder that hey are more than JUST simple 1/1's when the deck is built correctly.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
Yeah, good Edgar decks are resilient, they don't over-extend too much and they have solid protection against a lot of boardwipes, plus the substantial removal suite offered by white and black, and can rebuild fairly quickly if a boardwipe does get through. They tend to build quickly and do a lot of damage starting early on, and for decks based on the very small vampires, they don't tend to stay small for very long, and can often inflict damage much greater than their individual stats. They aren't unbeatable by any means, but they can really seem pretty crazy good compared to EDH decks that don't seem to do anything but ramp, play mana rocks or draw cards for the first four turns or so.
Even a less tuned Edgar deck - mine is very much vamp tribal, no Purphoros, only one creature in the deck that isn't a vampire or shapeshifter (Athreos; draining people's life if they want dead vamps to stay dead seems a fittingly vampiric thing) - can be a pretty strong thing in less competitive metagames.
I am not a fan of Markov but That is because I play in a casual group. I can deal with Markov decks too but most of my decks cannot let one get rolling too heavily. My dragon deck is okay as while Markov rolls faster. Dragons hit MUCH harder.
My other decks are combo, control or swarm. Swarm can outspeed markov my combo and control are dead in the water.
If your group is finely tuned. Then they are getting bad draws. Don't run answers which means they are those one trick ponies. Or are not as finely tuned as you say.
Just make a combo deck. I feel people who whine will always whine. Give them a reason to. Then when you have had your fill of 2 turn wins. Go back to markov (which should not be winning as fast)
It may also teach them to run answers. My jank Marcum deck went from jank to 4 turn clock because I had to keep boosting it.
I love the eminence commanders. Of course, I also like Vanguard.
The important factor is that none of the eminence commanders are breaking anything (other than Inalla maybe). I don't even play Ur-Dragon as tribal; I just like the neat feeling that, by playing him as my big doofy bomb commander, I also unlock a super-secret selection of creatures nobody else gets. Which is actually just the same dragons that anyone else can play, except they're actually worth playing now due to the lower mana cost. Feeling cool and unique and special due to your particular choice of commander is 90% of the reason to play the format, and starting the game with an emblem accomplishes pretty much the same thing.
Edgar allows you to actually play aggro, an archetype that is nigh-impossible to win with otherwise in commander. People are so used to being able to ignore aggro strategies due to the 40 life. They include two or three cards in their deck that can knock down any normal aggro strategy plus some added utility, and assume that should always be enough and if it isn't then something's busted. You finally have an aggro deck that can power through 40 life without emptying its hand completely and it bothers people because they need to consider it when they hadn't before.
Now it goes without saying that WotC has to be very careful about what they print for eminence. Krenko would obviously be busted from the command zone, that's why they wouldn't print Krenko and the comparison is unfair. Inalla is a good example of eminence maybe being taken too far. She's the only one you need to spend additional mana on, but she still has a 1-card infinite with possible counterspell support. Even then I like her as an 'emblem commander' and am currently trying to play her as monoblack with no actual intention of casting her, and I see nothing wrong with that.
Can I ask you - do you see goblins with Krenko, Mob Boss or elves with Rhys the Redeemed the same way? Are they stupid? I genuinely am asking, not being facetious.
Hell no. You actually have to cast them if you want to do something with them.
Imagine if you could activate Krenko from the command zone. That would be dumbest thing ever.
Well, that just seems a bit of a double standard. Rhys costs one to cast and swarms as hard as Edgar as early. Krenko not so much, sure, but he's a combo beast. He's looking to win t5-6 if possible.
No offense, I just think this is my point. Edgar seems to be singled out from the other token commanders, and he's at parity with the top of them at most.
Personally, I'll go up against the deck because it's a glass cannon. I guess its because it hits early. But you know what you're getting, and its beatable. I beat almost this exact deck yesterday. If you can sweep, Edgar runs out of answers quite quickly. Besides which, it only becomes overpowered if you don't run answers. I feel like rage quitting is a little silly because it is so VERY prone to disruption that if you're going to complain you should really only blame yourself.
Am I wrong? Am I being too hard? Personally I'd rather go up against this than a tuned combo deck, but I'm receiving enough ire to question it.
I'd really like to get some feedback on this, because it seems like whining, but I don't want to be a jerk, so if it really is universally busted I won't play it.
Helping someone in my group upgrade the precon lately, and even with minimal upgrades the deck can be a menace early-game. But Edgar Markov has the same problem as any token/aggro strategy - wipe at the right time, and it folds like a deck of cards.
I just don't think Edgar is worth the hate. From my experience people tend to hate Eminence as an ability as it completely negates the reason to cast your commander. A commander that never needs to hit the battlefield to win a game is really strong. I play Inalla myself, and Eminence is kind of busted with some of the stronger abilities. Stuff like Oloro is completely negligible, but Edgar and Inalla can pull off a win without ever hitting the board.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
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That said, if your playgroup is adamant about you not playing it, the only thing you can do is explain to them the deck's weaknesses and hope they adapt.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
I mean it really does seem like just butthurt at this point. It's strong early game, sure, but it just seems like bad planning to not run sweepers. Or if not sweepers, a way to survive the first 5-6 turns.
This does kind of encompass it. The trick, I've found, is not to overcommit. Leave something in your hand in preparation for inevitable sweepers to rebuild from, or find some solid draw engines.
It's funny, the last game I played was against Tatyova combo, Jodah goodstuff and Trostani. I got an early Captivating Vampire, and spent three turns not gaining control of Trostani because it's a bit rough. Then Jodah lands Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger. My exact words were 'if you guys don't deal with this, I will'. No one did, so I took it. Makes sense to me. I used it to empty my hand of Bloodline Keeper, Legion Lieutenant and a land. Literally no answers in hand. Then everyone swept. Which is a little childish considering I wasn't the one packing Vorinclex.
I guess I get it. I've had the same treatment from Rhys the Redeemed and Krenko, Mob Boss before, but I always give it at least a reasonable punt to compete. And I try not to give bad vibes out, unless the deck is clearly tuned to a higher level than every other deck being played.
Decks that heavily focus on combat are the easiest to interact with, usually.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
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Against tall threats you run spot removal.
Against wide threats you run sweepers.
Against combo (and stax I suppose) you run disruption.
Against Hive Mind-Scrambleverse, you flip the table.
Your deck clearly falls into the second category most of the time (well the format is wide enough you can potentially have a deck operate in all 3 modes at different times, albeit less effectively the more types you have) and of all three categories yours is arguably the hardest to counter-protect (not impossible, but your variety in choice and effectiveness is likely the lowest).
I don't even know what to say at this point. If you don't have the answers to any of the three above, either make space for it, or accept your deck has a weakness to that deck's "archetype" (I'm loosely using the term to categorize here). To ask people not to play an "archetype" because you are weak to it is one of silliest things I've heard ("I've no graveyard hate, Karador is therefore not allowed")... but on the other hand EDH is also a social game and it's also not unheard of for a whole meta to isolate itself if they all happened to have the same weakness and chose to outlaw said "Archetype" instead and while it does close off the group/meta to be relatively unfriendly when compared with the overall game/format, it's not completely unreasonable from a certain social aspect viewpoint either - they're not obliged to open up for a single player if they're all enjoying themselves otherwise.
So, really it's a discussion you all need to do - in the whole range of the format your deck is definitely by no means unreasonable, but that has no relevance if the group actively chose to customize their barriers in the first place and honestly who am I (would like to speak for the general public here, but eh) to meddle with the barriers of EDH groups that don't concern me, even if those barriers sound silly to me as someone who just goes with the general basics of the format.
I really don't know why Edgar would be a significant problem in tuned metas. Probably the biggest danger he presents is that it's really cheap to turn the precon into a fairly well-tuned Edgar deck, and more casual-to-middle-of-the-road metagames may find that hard to deal with the speed of even a modestly competitively-built Edgar deck.
In fact, an Edgar player once called me unfair once for running Ashling the Pilgrim. In fairness to him it was a very casual game where my commander just happened to counter his deck, but he still focused me all game over it and lost anyways.
Also, you should play Mercadia's Downfall if you aren't already. It's hilarious in competitive metas where there are more nonbasics than basics most of the time.
- Rabid Wombat
If at the very least the tokens were "1/1 thrall tokens" then I'd be a little more okay, but freaking vampires?
It's less about the power level and more that I hate his Eminence to hell.
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUB Cheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
This said, I think there is always the option to mention that you are going to play him or play a faster deck if you want to give opponents a chance to choose a less casual deck for when they play against it. I have always hated sitting down to play a nice game of mono white or something and I see a glass cannon deck going against me.
Overall, I think its good to have some decks that are a little stronger and there is nothing wrong with playing them some. The question in my mind is how to not play your more competitive decks against your opponents more casual decks. This is something I have struggled with myself though as to how to answer.
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I for one think it's ridiculous to hate on Edgar Markov. It's an aggro deck, which is probably the one archetype in Commander that everyone seems prepared for (with spot removal, mass removal, and a general plan on how to deal with an opposing army). And it's not like Vampires are that strong of a tribe to begin with; they need all the help they can get in order to even be competitive. Of all the really ridiculous things that you can do in Commander, with all the available synergies and card combinations that can get crazy, Edgar Markov plus cheap vampires seems pretty benign.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
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Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
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Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
I do the same. If I wanna game hard, I'll bring out Ghave or Edgar, if I want to play control Bruna or Dralnu, and if I want something that scales to different levels it's likely Nissa. I try to fit in to the group I'm playing against - I don't see it as a win if you're handing beatings downward. And this is part of what has surprised me. I've only ever really brought the deck out against players that I thought could handle it.
Can you explain 'dumb plays'? I get how its easily broken, but I don't see that as the case with Edgar. It encourages use of cards that see use in literally no other decks ever, which is nice. And to me it's no more stupid than someone who plays the same tired combos, like Sanguine Exquisite, Athreos Shadowborn cleric and so forth. In fact it's less stupid than these, because there's a TON more disruption that can put Edgar's plan off. It really, really does not take much at all. Sure it's quick, but so is Edric, Spymaster of Trest, elfball, Krenko, Selvala Brostorm, and I don't hear the same complaints.
All this being said, I get that the idea of a commander you don't play is pretty passive for EDH. I don't get the hate for Edgar though, he's no Derevi. Likewise with Oloro, I know there's a lot of hate out there for him, I don't get it. Seems to me people get a bit stung by the Esper combos he can run, but that could be any Esper commander.
I haven't read all the replies, yet I have to respond to a few misconceptions about Edgar Markov, as someone who plays it a lot myself.
1) A well built Edgar deck won't fold to a board wipe, as I play lots of card draw and protection from board wipes. Dark Prophecy laughs at a board wipe. Necro keeps your hand full at all times. Boros Charm, Rootborn Defense, Teferi's Protection (which came in the deck and no reason not to have it) and Eldrazi Monument all are reasons why you cannot "just play wrath" and watch it crumble. Edgar can protect himself and bounce back easily.
2a) They are not just a bunch of 1/1's. Have you played against a good Edgar deck before? Door of Destinies, Coat of Arms, Glory of Warfare and other such anthems change each "boring 1/1" into a 5/5 or larger in no time. I have had turn two signet (no sol ring action) turn 3 door of destinies, turn 4 cast one drops, turn 5 attack for 56, kill a player, and put 10 commander damage on another.
2b) Again, they are not just 1/1's. Thanks to Purphoros and Malakir Bloodwitch, it is also easy to deal lethal damage or otherwise finish the game. Purphos says, "You had better answer me before I can cast 10 one drops... oh wait, I can attack you with those one drops and kill you before I even need to get to 10."
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I would not say it is the best and most competitive deck in the format, but I feel that the opinions I have read so far have come from people who have not faced a well built Edgar Deck.
Just check out IBSPathfinder's low cmc list and tell me that it isn't good enough.
I have seriously had games where resolving a Boros Charm against a board wipe resulted in the table scooping. Basically, someone else cast Plaguewind for me and they knew the math... time to go to the next game.
Sure its strong and fast, I just feel like it's not that hard to pack answers for problem Edgar poses.
Swords and Krosan Grip and other efftect don't stop Purphoros or Malakir Bloodwitch, nor will single target removal. Even when grip or other removal eats Necro or Dark Prohposy, thise don't stop the other forms of card draw the deck has in the form of etb effects or sorcery spells which also quickly refill the hand.
Are you seriously suggesting that a Krosan Grip will be burnt on a Door of Destinies... or a Survial of the Fittist, Foodchain, Mind over Matter and the other really game changing artifacts and enchantments?
Again, in reality, the strength of Edgar is that it HAS to be focused on and hated out by the group... because if it is allowed to run away with the first 4 turns (as other control and combo decks tend to build ramp, card draw, and tutors) then it will hit hard in a single turn.
Finally, as I have said and recomended you take a look at, it is designed to resist and bounce back from wipes.
The reason lesser build fold to wipes is because, as was said before, those lesser decks find themselves "top decking two drops and regretting their life choices" while a good build is sitting on card draw and protection.
Edgar plays Ad Nauseam at end of turn without even trying to combo, then it just takes tons of damage vecause it doesn't care, untaps and draws again, and rebuilds with potential haste depending on what it drew.
Please do not think I am calling it the perfect unbeatable deck, but people really underestimate it when they haven't played against it.
They should only slow down any deck that is good.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Your friend isn't getting the most out of his commander then. Edgar has a place for being cast, it just isn't right away.
Can I ask you - do you see goblins with Krenko, Mob Boss or elves with Rhys the Redeemed the same way? Are they stupid? I genuinely am asking, not being facetious.
I play the deck and agree that it is dumb, but not any more "dumb" than other things you can do in magic.
The storm mechanic is dumb. I used to play Vintage, and the Mean Deck Gifts Tendrils combo. You cast zero and one cost artifacts, pick them back up because of Hurkyl's Recall or rebuild, cast them again, maybe brainstorm or something and then Tendrils for lethat. You didn't do anything but cast mana rocks, pick them up and cast them again and then won.
Dredge decks are dumb. Instead of drawing cards, you just mill yourself and get things into play for free, then sacrifice them for free to get zombies for free, then cast a reanimate card for free to get Flame-Kin Zealot and attack with haste.
Doomsday, even in commander, is dumb. If it resolves, you should win.
Tooth and Nail is dumb. Get any two creature combo and win.
The list goes on and on.
That doesn't excuse nor diminish how dumb Edgard is... but making free 1/1's is far less dumb than what you can do in MtG and Commander.
===============================================
That being said, there is a point for and against casting Edgar:
1) Why spend six mana on him when I can spend tat six mana on other things in my hand?
2) I often Cast Edgar in my games because of the cumulative Anthem he gives each turn. He is also a real threat in combat, as he hits the table and swing for 5 first strike damage, or more with other anthems in play. That is enough to win a lot of fights, especially with anthems on the table.
For me, if he eats removal or a double block, then he earned his mana cost. Casting him doesn't cost me a card, but removing him will likely cost you one or more cards (double block for example) and I still keep the +1/+1 counters, which means his anthem didn't go away when he died.
Honestly, Edgard is the first and only agro deck I have ever used in Commander. I am no saying he is the only one that exists, but he gave me an excuse to have one. When you sit down to a four player game and know that you have to chew through 120 combined life points, even though some people will damage themselves and other people do attack each other, that is a lot to ask out of a deck of one and two drops. However, by simply adding a 1/1 tribal token to each tribal creature you cast, that almost impossible uphill battle becomes not only suddenly possible... people begin to complain about how easy it is... and is another reason/reminder that hey are more than JUST simple 1/1's when the deck is built correctly.
Even a less tuned Edgar deck - mine is very much vamp tribal, no Purphoros, only one creature in the deck that isn't a vampire or shapeshifter (Athreos; draining people's life if they want dead vamps to stay dead seems a fittingly vampiric thing) - can be a pretty strong thing in less competitive metagames.
My other decks are combo, control or swarm. Swarm can outspeed markov my combo and control are dead in the water.
If your group is finely tuned. Then they are getting bad draws. Don't run answers which means they are those one trick ponies. Or are not as finely tuned as you say.
Just make a combo deck. I feel people who whine will always whine. Give them a reason to. Then when you have had your fill of 2 turn wins. Go back to markov (which should not be winning as fast)
It may also teach them to run answers. My jank Marcum deck went from jank to 4 turn clock because I had to keep boosting it.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
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WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
The important factor is that none of the eminence commanders are breaking anything (other than Inalla maybe). I don't even play Ur-Dragon as tribal; I just like the neat feeling that, by playing him as my big doofy bomb commander, I also unlock a super-secret selection of creatures nobody else gets. Which is actually just the same dragons that anyone else can play, except they're actually worth playing now due to the lower mana cost. Feeling cool and unique and special due to your particular choice of commander is 90% of the reason to play the format, and starting the game with an emblem accomplishes pretty much the same thing.
Edgar allows you to actually play aggro, an archetype that is nigh-impossible to win with otherwise in commander. People are so used to being able to ignore aggro strategies due to the 40 life. They include two or three cards in their deck that can knock down any normal aggro strategy plus some added utility, and assume that should always be enough and if it isn't then something's busted. You finally have an aggro deck that can power through 40 life without emptying its hand completely and it bothers people because they need to consider it when they hadn't before.
Now it goes without saying that WotC has to be very careful about what they print for eminence. Krenko would obviously be busted from the command zone, that's why they wouldn't print Krenko and the comparison is unfair. Inalla is a good example of eminence maybe being taken too far. She's the only one you need to spend additional mana on, but she still has a 1-card infinite with possible counterspell support. Even then I like her as an 'emblem commander' and am currently trying to play her as monoblack with no actual intention of casting her, and I see nothing wrong with that.
- Rabid Wombat
Well, that just seems a bit of a double standard. Rhys costs one to cast and swarms as hard as Edgar as early. Krenko not so much, sure, but he's a combo beast. He's looking to win t5-6 if possible.
No offense, I just think this is my point. Edgar seems to be singled out from the other token commanders, and he's at parity with the top of them at most.