I'm a fairly experienced EDH player, but I struggle making cuts in some of my Commander decks. Part of my problem is that I want to play all the flashy stuff, but sometimes the flashy stuff isn't what the deck needs to be more efficient.
I wanted to start this thread so people could share helpful advice on how to make cuts and edits to their decks.
I understand that each EDH deck is different and it's hard to come up with an outline to go by without seeing the decklists, but I'm sure some of yall have some tips and tricks.
I struggle with this, too. Every deck has a couple of cards that look cool on paper and slow the deck down. Honestly, the best thing I've found to make the cuts that need to be made is to submit them here, and face the criticism of my peers. So, essentially, my secret weapon is peer pressure. Hate to say it, but it works in this context.
Most of my decks have about 10 ramp, 15-20 spot removal/sweepers, and the rest creatures and other utility cards with about 36-37 lands. Some variation of that. It’s not everyone’s equation, as I don’t play cEDH or combos, but the point here is that I cover my bases for what I want in a deck. Once these basics are covered, I look for better/best fits to theme. If two cards have the same function and theme fit, then I pick what’s the most fun or exciting.
One tactic I’ve been using lately is typing into a 100 slot list instead of listing all the cards I want to play. When I reach 100, I stop, look at mana curve, and start sub’ing one for one from there. Nothing goes in unless something comes out. That has really helped remove truly hard cuts. It’s much easier taking out a single card for a better card than to put too many pet cards in and cut from there.
I just save the cards and build a second deck. That way I end up with one tuned deck and one spillover deck. Sometimes with the same commander and a different 99, sometimes a different commander.
Lands. Always cut lands. My decks are 2-3 lands at most. I never win, due to never drawing lands, but I always have sweet spells to look at in my hand.
On a serious note, I think most peoples biggest struggle is cutting cards. Sometimes you do have to priorities cheaper costing cards, that are less powerful. It's hard to do, because often you've won games with those more powerful cards, so cutting them seems like a bad idea. But if you're really pushed into a corner, as long as they provide a good synergy with your deck, go for the cheaper options, that as I say may seem less sweet.
Lands. Always cut lands. My decks are 2-3 lands at most. I never win, due to never drawing lands, but I always have sweet spells to look at in my hand.
On a serious note, I think most peoples biggest struggle is cutting cards. Sometimes you do have to priorities cheaper costing cards, that are less powerful. It's hard to do, because often you've won games with those more powerful cards, so cutting them seems like a bad idea. But if you're really pushed into a corner, as long as they provide a good synergy with your deck, go for the cheaper options, that as I say may seem less sweet.
Yeah this sums up how I feel. I've won in numerous outrageous ways and some of the cards that helped me I can't seem to part with.
I hate making cuts. But one thing I try to do is not to worry about it too much. A single cut is just 1% of the deck, and how many cards do you see or plat during a game? 30? It means that any change won't really show up more than once in every 3 games, and most of the time it doesn't matter. Kill your darlings, then use those to make another deck. I have a Blood Frenzy going in the next deck for years now, always being really cool, never making an actual deck. It will finally find a place in Valduk, Keeper of the Flame, I promise!
Sometimes I decide a card really has a place in a deck and it doesn't get cut. But generally, I think we need a new format where decks are 300 cards, and I still run into problems.
Arkham, the 1920's. Investigators battle horrors from beyond time and space, risking life and sanity while conspiracies of cultists and malign servitors seek gateways for their outer gods to return...
Soon, the stars will be right! Great Cthulhu shall rise!
Really depends on which of the following scenarios we're in:
1. Cuts from an initial brew.
2. Cuts in a set deck for new arrivals.
In scenario 1 i follow my usual brew pattern.
After adding 35 or so lands i take my time to research appropriate ramp, disruption and protection in the given colors. Then i'll add my results to a private prototype list on www.tappedout.net (i'd do this on mtgs, if only the deckbuilder were a lot better). Before adding synergetic cards to said list i slim down my results to a max of 32 (or half of the nonland cards rounded down) non-synergetic cards - overlaps such as Ravenous Chupacabra in Alesha, Who Smiles at Death don't count to that max. All temporary cuts (10-15 cards on avg) go to the maybeboard in case i have an unbalanced list later on.
Next i'll research the future core of the deck and add those cards to the list as well. After saving temporarily i'll check for the total amount of cards (120+ cards usually) avg. curve and CMC spread.
First criteria for cuts at this point are overlaps. E.g. how many Duplicant/Ravenous Chupacabra variants and non-synergetic variants do i have and how many will i propably need. When in question what to cut i'll cut the non-synergetic one(s) first, then the mana-heavy one(s). After sifting through a few categories of cards i'll save again and usually end up with around 105-110 cards. (Cuts again go to the maybeboard)
This is where the hardest part of cutting begins as all cards that are still in the list are cards i feel are (close to) auto-includes. From here on i choose my decisions from the top of the curve down. E.g. CMC 6 slot of Alesha, Who Smiles at Death solely consists of Austere Command and Duplicant, would i ever cut any of them? No way, José. So on to the CMC 5 slot. Siege-Gang Commander and Karmic Guide certainly deserve their respective slots, but do Cathar's Crusade and Blinding Angel? I'm not swarming the board enough and the other might not be a factor if i'm not facing any aggro-ish decks. Result: Cuts/Maybeboard. Still in need of a few cuts? On to CMC 4 slots...
End of the day this way i'll have a solid balance, curve and toolbox, that will be tweaked through playtesting later on.
Sometimes you do have to priorities cheaper costing cards, that are less powerful. It's hard to do, because often you've won games with those more powerful cards, so cutting them seems like a bad idea. But if you're really pushed into a corner, as long as they provide a good synergy with your deck, go for the cheaper options, that as I say may seem less sweet.
Considering scenario 2 this is my usual approach.
As in the later stages of scenario 1 i'll start from the top of the curve down. Thanks to the number of games up to this point it's a tad easier to decide which effect do i consider worth what amount of mana. As an example from another deck of mine, my Brago, King Eternal list losely revolves around generating tokens. When i included the subtheme i had slots for a lot of token generators. Over time some of them got cut because they were somewhat up the curve and felt lackluster. Tokens off Captain of the Watch for example end up without evasion and buff if removed, same goes for Angel of Invention, which dies to virtually anything. On the other hand tokens off Whirler Rogue and the likes keep their keywords without their respective "lords", were set to stay and later includes like Regal Caracal work similarily or have a better token to mana ratio, see Oath of Gideon.
Due to these evolutions most of my decks slim down their avg. CMC a lot over time. Right now most of my decks range from a mere 1,86 avg. CMC to 3,22. The only exception at 3,85 is intentionally a bit more up the curve as my dedicated fatty deck.
Usually I build very Commander-centric decks with a specific strategy (Ramp, Voltron, Combo, et cetera) in mind. Then I sort the cards I want to run according to the function they serve in the deck. There's always the basic staples of course, ramp, draw and removal, but often I have commanders that require a specific function - self-milling for The Mimeoplasm, token generators for Wort, the Raidmother, et cetera. Once I have my list on paper I try to figure out which cards are the least effective for the role I want to use them for. For example, the aforementioned Wort deck wins by generating large amounts of tokens to duplicate ramp spells, eventually giving me the mana I need to kill off players with duplicated high-X Fireball-esque spells. Through playtesting I've found that if I run six or seven of these, I should consistently draw at least one of them as I set up my combo. Obviously there are more Fireballs than that, so I select based on which of these X spells do their jobs best/most efficiently.
Of course what works best on paper might not work in practice, and there is usually plenty of playtesting involved.
After the painstaking process of cutting the cards I pulled out to build the deck from ~250+ down to the 99, I start playtesting. I goldfish it for a few dozen hands see how the deck functions under imagined scenarios like vs. hard-counter control, stopping/defending against voltron, stax, etc. After all that is done I look through the deck and sort out cards that generally didn't do anything or cards that I was just never wanting to see when I drew them.
Next I playtest it against my actual decks in 1v1 best of 3 matches. I then look at cards that just didn't do enough or cards that I was just never happy to see. I do this last bit over and over until the deck can beat a certain amount of my decks a majority of the time. Depending on what it can beat typically gives me a rough estimate of how strong the deck is. If it can beat all of my casual decks, then I know it'll do fine in a casual 4-player per game setting. I typically never try to make a deck that's able to complete with my more competitive decks, like my Karador deck or a hard-counter control deck, because the sheer amount of interaction tends to be very oppressive in a 1v1 setting.
In an initial list, I like to separate my cards by function. Once I do that, I always seem to have a catch-all pile like “Utility”. I generally find that while those cards are cool or helpful, they don’t advance my deck’s specific game plan as much as other piles (like “Ramp”, “Removal”, “Recursion”). Therefore, I try to make my cuts from the most generic pile first.
In my experience, the last few cuts are the hardest. I found that I can ommit most of this painful process by simply not cutting to 99 cards but rather buying around 110 cards I'd like to play, then throwin the deck together with whichever cards arrive first (I order singles via magic card market). Usually the first 2-3 rounds are very disillusionous about the most ambitious card inclusions and reveal gaping holes, but thats what I got my extra cards for. After ~10 games with a deck I usually cycled through most of the ~110 cards and figured out what to run.
This way I get to own all the sweet cards, can help out friends lacking cards and always get a stroke of inspiration when skimming through my backup cards.
1. Clearly identify your decks core strategy.
2. Use your knowledge of the core strategy to determine how much of the three Rs you need (removal, recursion, ramp)
3. Decide on whether you are going to use redundancy, tutors or card draw as your primary source of consistency you wont be able to use all of them.
4. Make sure there are no cards that are too situational, that need too much set up or are bad in your opening hand. You want more consistency.
5. And finally there is such thing as too much consistency just cut a card that is the same as another card but worse.
First decide what the primary thing or 2 things are that the deck wants to do. Then, just brainstorm cards you think you could run. Next, fill out your ramp, card draw, removal and sweeper packages from this list first. This is to force yourself to run enough of these and not hamstring yourself accidentally. You can get creative with this to try to find as much synergy here as possible. Ravenous Chupacabra can count as a removal spell, Mulldrifter as card draw, Llanowar Elves as ramp etc. Then start building your core, and try to focus on the things you want your deck to be doing, judging every card against those goals. In case of equal fit, the lower cmc card takes precedence. Continue until you have 100 cards.
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
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I wanted to start this thread so people could share helpful advice on how to make cuts and edits to their decks.
I understand that each EDH deck is different and it's hard to come up with an outline to go by without seeing the decklists, but I'm sure some of yall have some tips and tricks.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
One tactic I’ve been using lately is typing into a 100 slot list instead of listing all the cards I want to play. When I reach 100, I stop, look at mana curve, and start sub’ing one for one from there. Nothing goes in unless something comes out. That has really helped remove truly hard cuts. It’s much easier taking out a single card for a better card than to put too many pet cards in and cut from there.
On a serious note, I think most peoples biggest struggle is cutting cards. Sometimes you do have to priorities cheaper costing cards, that are less powerful. It's hard to do, because often you've won games with those more powerful cards, so cutting them seems like a bad idea. But if you're really pushed into a corner, as long as they provide a good synergy with your deck, go for the cheaper options, that as I say may seem less sweet.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Yeah this sums up how I feel. I've won in numerous outrageous ways and some of the cards that helped me I can't seem to part with.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
Sometimes I decide a card really has a place in a deck and it doesn't get cut. But generally, I think we need a new format where decks are 300 cards, and I still run into problems.
• Call of Cthulhu CCG Servitor for the Netherlands!
Arkham, the 1920's. Investigators battle horrors from beyond time and space, risking life and sanity while conspiracies of cultists and malign servitors seek gateways for their outer gods to return...
Soon, the stars will be right! Great Cthulhu shall rise!
1. Cuts from an initial brew.
2. Cuts in a set deck for new arrivals.
In scenario 1 i follow my usual brew pattern.
After adding 35 or so lands i take my time to research appropriate ramp, disruption and protection in the given colors. Then i'll add my results to a private prototype list on www.tappedout.net (i'd do this on mtgs, if only the deckbuilder were a lot better). Before adding synergetic cards to said list i slim down my results to a max of 32 (or half of the nonland cards rounded down) non-synergetic cards - overlaps such as Ravenous Chupacabra in Alesha, Who Smiles at Death don't count to that max. All temporary cuts (10-15 cards on avg) go to the maybeboard in case i have an unbalanced list later on.
Next i'll research the future core of the deck and add those cards to the list as well. After saving temporarily i'll check for the total amount of cards (120+ cards usually) avg. curve and CMC spread.
First criteria for cuts at this point are overlaps. E.g. how many Duplicant/Ravenous Chupacabra variants and non-synergetic variants do i have and how many will i propably need. When in question what to cut i'll cut the non-synergetic one(s) first, then the mana-heavy one(s). After sifting through a few categories of cards i'll save again and usually end up with around 105-110 cards. (Cuts again go to the maybeboard)
This is where the hardest part of cutting begins as all cards that are still in the list are cards i feel are (close to) auto-includes. From here on i choose my decisions from the top of the curve down. E.g. CMC 6 slot of Alesha, Who Smiles at Death solely consists of Austere Command and Duplicant, would i ever cut any of them? No way, José. So on to the CMC 5 slot. Siege-Gang Commander and Karmic Guide certainly deserve their respective slots, but do Cathar's Crusade and Blinding Angel? I'm not swarming the board enough and the other might not be a factor if i'm not facing any aggro-ish decks. Result: Cuts/Maybeboard. Still in need of a few cuts? On to CMC 4 slots...
End of the day this way i'll have a solid balance, curve and toolbox, that will be tweaked through playtesting later on. Considering scenario 2 this is my usual approach.
As in the later stages of scenario 1 i'll start from the top of the curve down. Thanks to the number of games up to this point it's a tad easier to decide which effect do i consider worth what amount of mana. As an example from another deck of mine, my Brago, King Eternal list losely revolves around generating tokens. When i included the subtheme i had slots for a lot of token generators. Over time some of them got cut because they were somewhat up the curve and felt lackluster. Tokens off Captain of the Watch for example end up without evasion and buff if removed, same goes for Angel of Invention, which dies to virtually anything. On the other hand tokens off Whirler Rogue and the likes keep their keywords without their respective "lords", were set to stay and later includes like Regal Caracal work similarily or have a better token to mana ratio, see Oath of Gideon.
Due to these evolutions most of my decks slim down their avg. CMC a lot over time. Right now most of my decks range from a mere 1,86 avg. CMC to 3,22. The only exception at 3,85 is intentionally a bit more up the curve as my dedicated fatty deck.
Of course what works best on paper might not work in practice, and there is usually plenty of playtesting involved.
Next I playtest it against my actual decks in 1v1 best of 3 matches. I then look at cards that just didn't do enough or cards that I was just never happy to see. I do this last bit over and over until the deck can beat a certain amount of my decks a majority of the time. Depending on what it can beat typically gives me a rough estimate of how strong the deck is. If it can beat all of my casual decks, then I know it'll do fine in a casual 4-player per game setting. I typically never try to make a deck that's able to complete with my more competitive decks, like my Karador deck or a hard-counter control deck, because the sheer amount of interaction tends to be very oppressive in a 1v1 setting.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
B Toshiro Umezawa
BG Pharika, God of Affliction - Necromancy and Politics
WWW The Church of Heliod
WBR Zurgo, Helmsmasher
RG Wort, the Raidmother
UBR Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
In an initial list, I like to separate my cards by function. Once I do that, I always seem to have a catch-all pile like “Utility”. I generally find that while those cards are cool or helpful, they don’t advance my deck’s specific game plan as much as other piles (like “Ramp”, “Removal”, “Recursion”). Therefore, I try to make my cuts from the most generic pile first.
Hope that helps!
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsThis way I get to own all the sweet cards, can help out friends lacking cards and always get a stroke of inspiration when skimming through my backup cards.
UR Mizzix of the Izmagnus ~~~ Build your own win-condition: Finite Spellslinging
UR Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer ~~~ We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic ~~~ A Guide to dying slowly
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose ~~~ Marchesa's undying Marionettes
RGW Mayael the Anima ~~~ All Hail the Big Chungus
GWU Chulane, Teller of Tales ~~~ Permanents Only ETB Shenanigans
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant ~~~ Sidisi's Restless Servants
WUBRG The Ur-Dragon ~~~ Dragons eat your face
2. Use your knowledge of the core strategy to determine how much of the three Rs you need (removal, recursion, ramp)
3. Decide on whether you are going to use redundancy, tutors or card draw as your primary source of consistency you wont be able to use all of them.
4. Make sure there are no cards that are too situational, that need too much set up or are bad in your opening hand. You want more consistency.
5. And finally there is such thing as too much consistency just cut a card that is the same as another card but worse.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.