Making every single permanent spell in your deck replace itself if you build around her is a significant ability that you probably shouldn't handwave. In normal Commander, you need to limit the number of inexpensive creatures you run because they simply don't have the strength-to-card cost ratio to be worthwhile, but Jhoira completely negates that - all artifacts and legends suddenly lose the opportunity cost associated with card advantage.
Nin doesn't really cost less since you need to spend at least 1UURR and 1 turn before you'll get anything out of her - sure the initial cost is pretty low, but once you actually use her you're either spending a lot of mana (and often a creature) every turn or not getting as much card draw as Jhoira would be giving for free. (Don't get me wrong - Nin's amazing, possibly even better than Jhoira, but comparing the two is apples to oranges)
Tbh, Breya does nothing for me. Her abilities are nicely flexible, but they're inherently card disadvantage without using mass token creators or whatnot. The fact that a lot of decks seem to use her either as a combo piece or primarily for her colors just doesn't appeal to me at all. Which is unfortunate because I love the art and would probably buy a second, non-foil copy of her if one was printed even if I don't know that I'd ever use it.
I'm not going to say that you need to love Jhoira, but I think that running her at the head of either Eggs Storm or Ravager Affinity is reasonable as she can significantly improve the number of cards you see on any given turn without costing any extra mana. If those sorts of archetypes aren't your jam or aren't competitive in your meta, fine, but they are things that can exist that gain a lot of value from her.
If I was going to build storm, I'd just add black and run Kess, Dissident Mage, because she doesn't require me to build around her at all whereas I lose a color and have to run a higher artifact count with Jhoira (she's also harder to disrupt). Jhoira is neither exciting nor filling any role we don't have filled already. There's better artificers and there's better storm commanders. I guess if you want a nice tier 2-2.5 casual deck, she'll be a good (if uninspired) choice.
Making every single permanent spell in your deck replace itself if you build around her is a significant ability that you probably shouldn't handwave. In normal Commander, you need to limit the number of inexpensive creatures you run because they simply don't have the strength-to-card cost ratio to be worthwhile, but Jhoira completely negates that - all artifacts and legends suddenly lose the opportunity cost associated with card advantage.
Nin doesn't really cost less since you need to spend at least 1UURR and 1 turn before you'll get anything out of her - sure the initial cost is pretty low, but once you actually use her you're either spending a lot of mana (and often a creature) every turn or not getting as much card draw as Jhoira would be giving for free. (Don't get me wrong - Nin's amazing, possibly even better than Jhoira, but comparing the two is apples to oranges)
Tbh, Breya does nothing for me. Her abilities are nicely flexible, but they're inherently card disadvantage without using mass token creators or whatnot. The fact that a lot of decks seem to use her either as a combo piece or primarily for her colors just doesn't appeal to me at all. Which is unfortunate because I love the art and would probably buy a second, non-foil copy of her if one was printed even if I don't know that I'd ever use it.
I'm not going to say that you need to love Jhoira, but I think that running her at the head of either Eggs Storm or Ravager Affinity is reasonable as she can significantly improve the number of cards you see on any given turn without costing any extra mana. If those sorts of archetypes aren't your jam or aren't competitive in your meta, fine, but they are things that can exist that gain a lot of value from her.
If I was going to build storm, I'd just add black and run Kess, Dissident Mage, because she doesn't require me to build around her at all whereas I lose a color and have to run a higher artifact count with Jhoira (she's also harder to disrupt). Jhoira is neither exciting nor filling any role we don't have filled already. There's better artificers and there's better storm commanders. I guess if you want a nice tier 2-2.5 casual deck, she'll be a good (if uninspired) choice.
She is filling the role of U/R artifacts matter, which we've never had before.
I personally expected a more proactive artifact commander than a reactive one.
Is card draw really all that reactive? In aggro, it helps you get out more threats. In control, it helps you get out more answers (including more proactive answers, such as making it harder to untap things, or making things cost more). In combo, which a lot of artifact decks qualify as, it helps you get to your combo (or a tutor) faster.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I personally expected a more proactive artifact commander than a reactive one.
Is card draw really all that reactive? In aggro, it helps you get out more threats. In control, it helps you get out more answers (including more proactive answers, such as making it harder to untap things, or making things cost more). In combo, which a lot of artifact decks qualify as, it helps you get to your combo (or a tutor) faster.
Well yes it is reactive. She has a triggered ability which is in response to you casting a historic spell.
Well yes it is reactive. She has a triggered ability which is in response to you casting a historic spell.
I think most people consider a "reactive ability" to mean "an ability that is used in reaction to an opponent's action". Stuff like Ertai, Wizard Adept or Kaervek the Merciless.
I would classify Jhoira as a "passive" effect. While it's true that the draw is a triggered effect, it's something you get without expending any additional resources that just gives you more mileage from your Historic spells
Well yes it is reactive. She has a triggered ability which is in response to you casting a historic spell.
I think most people consider a "reactive ability" to mean "an ability that is used in reaction to an opponent's action". Stuff like Ertai, Wizard Adept or Kaervek the Merciless.
I would classify Jhoira as a "passive" effect. While it's true that the draw is a triggered effect, it's something you get without expending any additional resources that just gives you more mileage from your Historic spells
Understandable, but a reactive ability is not always of the opponents doing. If her ability was passive as you state, it would resemble and function as a static ability like Linvala, Keeper of Silence.
Such as if Jhoria 2.0 had a static ability that stated: "Each historic card you own or control has 'Draw a card when you cast this card.'"
She is filling the role of U/R artifacts matter, which we've never had before.
She could have done that, but she's just basically a r/u Vedalken Archmage. They could have done so much more like giving her Mirrorworks text or she could have had a cascade-like effect on artifact spells possibly even been able to cast artifacts from the yard with some kind of stipulation. She's artifacts matter as much as Sliver Queen is super friends matter. It's not that she's bad, she's just not the r/u artificer most people were looking for, I'd say, not enough to diverge from Breya and lose w/b.
Understandable, but a reactive ability is not always of the opponents doing. If her ability was passive as you state, it would resemble and function as a static ability like Linvala, Keeper of Silence.
Such as if Jhoria 2.0 had a static ability that stated: "Each historic card you own or control has 'Draw a card when you cast this card.'"
I would classify Linvala as "static", but Jhoira as "passive", but we're getting waaay off topic now. I think my problem with calling it "reactive" is that the ability isn't particularly active - it just sort of happens whenever you cast Historic spells; it doesn't require you to pay any cost or give you any choices to make.
Of course, we're discussing word choice now instead of the card, so I'm gonna drop it.
It's not that she's bad, she's just not the r/u artificer I was looking for
I think that this edit is a far more true statement, since you really should avoid speaking for the majority (though I'm just as guilty of doing that from time to time).
There's nothing wrong with being disappointed with Jhoira, and I would love to see a UR artifact-centered legend with a more complicated ability someday soon, too. Variety is the spice of life and all that. But since there was no universal call for a specific ability that the UR artifact commander should have, no matter what they printed she wouldn't have been the "artificer that most people were looking for". And to be honest, if she had the Mirrorworks text stapled onto her, people would be disappointed that she was just Mirrorworks on a stick just like I'm slightly disappointed that Jodah is just Fist of Suns on a stick.
At least she expands on Vedalken Archmage's ability by including legends and sagas and has a slightly more significant body. And free card advantage from your Commander is something that should never be underestimated.
It's not that she's bad, she's just not the r/u artificer I was looking for
I think that this edit is a far more true statement, since you really should avoid speaking for the majority (though I'm just as guilty of doing that from time to time).
No, it's not just me, just about everyone in my two circles saw them hyping up an izzet artificer commander in tweets awhile back... then we see Jhoira. Both circles are vastly different; one is battlecruiser-y and casual to semi-competitive and the other one is highly competitive (with prizes as it is 4-man pods for FNM that fire as they fill). The casual group is disappointed she doesn't do anything flashy or Johnny-like. The competitive group looked at her and was brainstorming buids and ultimately decided she just wasn't good enough to replace Breya or Kess (this group has food chain combos, a competitive Nin artifacts player and a handful of Breya combo decks). My own opinion lies in the middle of the two, she doesn't look fun and she's not going to be as strong as those other two.
Understandable, but a reactive ability is not always of the opponents doing. If her ability was passive as you state, it would resemble and function as a static ability like Linvala, Keeper of Silence.
Such as if Jhoria 2.0 had a static ability that stated: "Each historic card you own or control has 'Draw a card when you cast this card.'"
I would classify Linvala as "static", but Jhoira as "passive", but we're getting waaay off topic now. I think my problem with calling it "reactive" is that the ability isn't particularly active - it just sort of happens whenever you cast Historic spells; it doesn't require you to pay any cost or give you any choices to make.
Of course, we're discussing word choice now instead of the card, so I'm gonna drop it.
It's not that she's bad, she's just not the r/u artificer I was looking for
I think that this edit is a far more true statement, since you really should avoid speaking for the majority (though I'm just as guilty of doing that from time to time).
There's nothing wrong with being disappointed with Jhoira, and I would love to see a UR artifact-centered legend with a more complicated ability someday soon, too. Variety is the spice of life and all that. But since there was no universal call for a specific ability that the UR artifact commander should have, no matter what they printed she wouldn't have been the "artificer that most people were looking for". And to be honest, if she had the Mirrorworks text stapled onto her, people would be disappointed that she was just Mirrorworks on a stick just like I'm slightly disappointed that Jodah is just Fist of Suns on a stick.
At least she expands on Vedalken Archmage's ability by including legends and sagas and has a slightly more significant body. And free card advantage from your Commander is something that should never be underestimated.
"On a stick" means "on a permanent." So Mirrorworks and Fist of Suns are already sticks, lol.
I personally expected a more proactive artifact commander than a reactive one.
Is card draw really all that reactive? In aggro, it helps you get out more threats. In control, it helps you get out more answers (including more proactive answers, such as making it harder to untap things, or making things cost more). In combo, which a lot of artifact decks qualify as, it helps you get to your combo (or a tutor) faster.
Well yes it is reactive. She has a triggered ability which is in response to you casting a historic spell.
I guess it depends on how you think of it.
I think of reactive as something in response to something an opponent does: Removal, counterspells, redirect effects, copy effects, damage prevention, +X/+X until EOT, Vitalize effects, bounce effects, granting shroud/hexproof/protection/indestructible...Those are what I think of as reactive. Basically, anything you would place on an instant or a permanent with flash because its utility is inherently compromised at sorcery speed.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
We got an update with them trying to make standard commander a thing, they call it "Brawl". So, in that shell, I think Jhoira may actually be pretty good, especially with Locust God in the 99. We'll need to wait to hear more about it later today though. I'm not sure how thrilled I am with standard commander, but I can see the appeal for newer players looking to play with some of their standard extras (and Wizards looking to cash in on commander even more to support their standard sets).
Needs to be Mana Crypt or Mana Vault, since Sol Ring only nets 1 per iteration and you need to Words twice per iteration (once per artifact). Words of Wind is definitely a strong inclusion, though, since Jhoira negates the card disadvantage normally associated with it.
Highly synergistic, snowball general gets printed (e.g. The Locust God) – “Ugh, this general builds the deck for you. Everyone will be running X, Y and Z card in this, and games will basically play out the same every time. What a broken, kill-on-sight addition to the game.”
Highly linear, open-ended general like this one gets printed (e.g. Keranos, God of Storms or Jhoira) – “Ugh, lackluster and mediocre. Why would I run this over such and such? This doesn’t fill any role that we don’t have filled already.”
You can’t have your cake and eat it too. It seems like players expect a general that explodes off of the table, is a valid pick competitively, and yet somehow flies under the radar and lets you put anything you want in your deck and still function. Do I really need to say that not all of these boxes will be checked by one general?
If you ask me, I would rather get the support-type general in these colors. I am not fond of developing decks like the Locust God, Arjun, Melek, Niv-Mizzet or Mizzix where the table can immediately identify your win condition and expect the same set of 40+ cards out of your deck right as you sit down. Those generals got stale very quickly because there was little territory left to explore with them, and you just put the question to the table whether or not they can kill a creature, and win shortly after if they can’t. Not a lot of back and forth, and not the best in the game at putting the question to your opponents, besides.
In the support role, I see Jhoira as a great alternative to decks that might have gone with something like Keranos or Nin before. Nin is great on volume as a Braingeyser in the Command Zone, but is very slow on tempo. On the other hand, Keranos is a flat 5 mana investment that you will rarely have to pay for twice in a game, but is quite slow at what it does. Niv Mizzet 2.0 is decent, but somewhat mana intensive as well, or reliant on combat. And, people still think you are playing combo. Jhoira doesn’t seem to me to be as much of a general that wants you to get 10 artifacts and Darksteel Forge on the table, but just a general who draws you cards. Every UR deck will want to develop its mana base, and the only option really to do that are artifacts.
Also nice to have the draw effect on PW’s and legendaries as well. Niv-Mizzet, Melek, Daretti, and the Locust God are cards that I want to be running in most of the URx decks that I make, but running legendaries in the 99 that are known to be powerful commanders just feels odd to me. With Jhoira, it makes sense to be running them, and you finally get to see what they do in isolation rather than as build-around-me.
The draw with this type of general is that you can build your deck how you want, and players won’t grow weary of what you are doing. For me, I have always wanted to go beatdown with UR creatures like Djinn Illuminatus, Niv-Mizzet and Hypersonic Dragon all equipped up with Swords, and not really any of the current UR options were going that route. Jhoira seems nice for that, and also a bit of beatdown with some artifact creatures like Precursor Golem.
Highly synergistic, snowball general gets printed (e.g. The Locust God) – “Ugh, this general builds the deck for you. Everyone will be running X, Y and Z card in this, and games will basically play out the same every time. What a broken, kill-on-sight addition to the game.”
Highly linear, open-ended general like this one gets printed (e.g. Keranos, God of Storms or Jhoira) – “Ugh, lackluster and mediocre. Why would I run this over such and such? This doesn’t fill any role that we don’t have filled already.”
You can’t have your cake and eat it too. It seems like players expect a general that explodes off of the table, is a valid pick competitively, and yet somehow flies under the radar and lets you put anything you want in your deck and still function. Do I really need to say that not all of these boxes will be checked by one general?[...]
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Newsflash: different folks want different things. Not sure why this concept is so hard to grasp for some people here.
Somepeople want cards like The Locust God, different people want cards like Keranos, God of Storms.
Other people don't like either and look for something else entirely.
For some people that is Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain. Other find her boring. Wow those must be horrible people.
Sorry for attacking your post specifically, but the complaints about "you people" as if we're some kind of giant hive mind here always piss me off.
I'd be interessted to see how your equipment approach works out. Nonwhite equipment decks are a rare thing.
The problems come because no one is saying, "hmm, this just isn't for me". The opinions come in the form of "how could they have designed this?", "So and so can already to this better...", and so on.
I get that there is something of a bias for negative opinion in a forum such as this, but still I get the idea that EDH players are just incredibly hard to please anyway.
I personally love it. If there was a legend with roughtly these stats (hill giant + draw trigger) in every color combination, I don't think I'd ever play anything else. The value is insane.
Jhoira is an instant combo general. Like any combo general you can build it another way but you gotta convince people first that that is what you're doing
Every time I play Kurkesh. I HAVE infinite combos, but my policy is if I'm playing "casual" that I won't search up any infinite combo pieces.
So... anyone seen a cool list with her that is not a storm(ish) build?
I’m still looking for an alternate angle here. Only thing I know is that I want to play storm the vault in the deck. Perhaps a thopter deck with hellkite tyrant and mechanized production? Or go full historic good stuff?
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
So... anyone seen a cool list with her that is not a storm(ish) build?
I’m still looking for an alternate angle here. Only thing I know is that I want to play storm the vault in the deck. Perhaps a thopter deck with hellkite tyrant and mechanized production? Or go full historic good stuff?
I haven't gotten as far as a list, but I would start with cheap aggressive/utility artifact creatures and legends, Scrap Trawler, mana rocks, Metalwork Colossus, and finally fill out the list with counters and removal. It might not be the most competitive deck, but being able to drop chains of cheap aggro dudes and just overwhelm opponents without needing to worry too much about losing card advantage to board wipes will make for something distinctly different from your normal Commander games.
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If I was going to build storm, I'd just add black and run Kess, Dissident Mage, because she doesn't require me to build around her at all whereas I lose a color and have to run a higher artifact count with Jhoira (she's also harder to disrupt). Jhoira is neither exciting nor filling any role we don't have filled already. There's better artificers and there's better storm commanders. I guess if you want a nice tier 2-2.5 casual deck, she'll be a good (if uninspired) choice.
I really love the transform into lands cards, so it's nice to have a commander where I feel justified in playing them with nothing but upside with able to draw. Got Azor's Gateway, Treasure Map, Thaumatic Compass, Search for Azcanta, Vance's Blasting Cannons, Storm the Vault. Red/Blue has very few land ramp options, so it's nice to get extra lands into play.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
She is filling the role of U/R artifacts matter, which we've never had before.
I'm really excited to run Storm the Vault.
Is card draw really all that reactive? In aggro, it helps you get out more threats. In control, it helps you get out more answers (including more proactive answers, such as making it harder to untap things, or making things cost more). In combo, which a lot of artifact decks qualify as, it helps you get to your combo (or a tutor) faster.
On phasing:
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I think most people consider a "reactive ability" to mean "an ability that is used in reaction to an opponent's action". Stuff like Ertai, Wizard Adept or Kaervek the Merciless.
I would classify Jhoira as a "passive" effect. While it's true that the draw is a triggered effect, it's something you get without expending any additional resources that just gives you more mileage from your Historic spells
Such as if Jhoria 2.0 had a static ability that stated: "Each historic card you own or control has 'Draw a card when you cast this card.'"
She could have done that, but she's just basically a r/u Vedalken Archmage. They could have done so much more like giving her Mirrorworks text or she could have had a cascade-like effect on artifact spells possibly even been able to cast artifacts from the yard with some kind of stipulation. She's artifacts matter as much as Sliver Queen is super friends matter. It's not that she's bad, she's just not the r/u artificer most people were looking for, I'd say, not enough to diverge from Breya and lose w/b.
I would classify Linvala as "static", but Jhoira as "passive", but we're getting waaay off topic now. I think my problem with calling it "reactive" is that the ability isn't particularly active - it just sort of happens whenever you cast Historic spells; it doesn't require you to pay any cost or give you any choices to make.
Of course, we're discussing word choice now instead of the card, so I'm gonna drop it.
I think that this edit is a far more true statement, since you really should avoid speaking for the majority (though I'm just as guilty of doing that from time to time).
There's nothing wrong with being disappointed with Jhoira, and I would love to see a UR artifact-centered legend with a more complicated ability someday soon, too. Variety is the spice of life and all that. But since there was no universal call for a specific ability that the UR artifact commander should have, no matter what they printed she wouldn't have been the "artificer that most people were looking for". And to be honest, if she had the Mirrorworks text stapled onto her, people would be disappointed that she was just Mirrorworks on a stick just like I'm slightly disappointed that Jodah is just Fist of Suns on a stick.
At least she expands on Vedalken Archmage's ability by including legends and sagas and has a slightly more significant body. And free card advantage from your Commander is something that should never be underestimated.
No, it's not just me, just about everyone in my two circles saw them hyping up an izzet artificer commander in tweets awhile back... then we see Jhoira. Both circles are vastly different; one is battlecruiser-y and casual to semi-competitive and the other one is highly competitive (with prizes as it is 4-man pods for FNM that fire as they fill). The casual group is disappointed she doesn't do anything flashy or Johnny-like. The competitive group looked at her and was brainstorming buids and ultimately decided she just wasn't good enough to replace Breya or Kess (this group has food chain combos, a competitive Nin artifacts player and a handful of Breya combo decks). My own opinion lies in the middle of the two, she doesn't look fun and she's not going to be as strong as those other two.
"On a stick" means "on a permanent." So Mirrorworks and Fist of Suns are already sticks, lol.
I guess it depends on how you think of it.
I think of reactive as something in response to something an opponent does: Removal, counterspells, redirect effects, copy effects, damage prevention, +X/+X until EOT, Vitalize effects, bounce effects, granting shroud/hexproof/protection/indestructible...Those are what I think of as reactive. Basically, anything you would place on an instant or a permanent with flash because its utility is inherently compromised at sorcery speed.
On phasing:
For what it's worth.
Plus it doesn't have to be a zero cost artifact. As long as mana enough to cast two artifacts, plus the 1 for the Words of Wind.
So Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, can be mixed with a 1 or less artifact.
Grim Monolith, Sol Ring require a zero cost artifact.
Tidespout Tyrant allows you to draw your deck in a similar style.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Highly linear, open-ended general like this one gets printed (e.g. Keranos, God of Storms or Jhoira) – “Ugh, lackluster and mediocre. Why would I run this over such and such? This doesn’t fill any role that we don’t have filled already.”
You can’t have your cake and eat it too. It seems like players expect a general that explodes off of the table, is a valid pick competitively, and yet somehow flies under the radar and lets you put anything you want in your deck and still function. Do I really need to say that not all of these boxes will be checked by one general?
If you ask me, I would rather get the support-type general in these colors. I am not fond of developing decks like the Locust God, Arjun, Melek, Niv-Mizzet or Mizzix where the table can immediately identify your win condition and expect the same set of 40+ cards out of your deck right as you sit down. Those generals got stale very quickly because there was little territory left to explore with them, and you just put the question to the table whether or not they can kill a creature, and win shortly after if they can’t. Not a lot of back and forth, and not the best in the game at putting the question to your opponents, besides.
In the support role, I see Jhoira as a great alternative to decks that might have gone with something like Keranos or Nin before. Nin is great on volume as a Braingeyser in the Command Zone, but is very slow on tempo. On the other hand, Keranos is a flat 5 mana investment that you will rarely have to pay for twice in a game, but is quite slow at what it does. Niv Mizzet 2.0 is decent, but somewhat mana intensive as well, or reliant on combat. And, people still think you are playing combo. Jhoira doesn’t seem to me to be as much of a general that wants you to get 10 artifacts and Darksteel Forge on the table, but just a general who draws you cards. Every UR deck will want to develop its mana base, and the only option really to do that are artifacts.
Also nice to have the draw effect on PW’s and legendaries as well. Niv-Mizzet, Melek, Daretti, and the Locust God are cards that I want to be running in most of the URx decks that I make, but running legendaries in the 99 that are known to be powerful commanders just feels odd to me. With Jhoira, it makes sense to be running them, and you finally get to see what they do in isolation rather than as build-around-me.
The draw with this type of general is that you can build your deck how you want, and players won’t grow weary of what you are doing. For me, I have always wanted to go beatdown with UR creatures like Djinn Illuminatus, Niv-Mizzet and Hypersonic Dragon all equipped up with Swords, and not really any of the current UR options were going that route. Jhoira seems nice for that, and also a bit of beatdown with some artifact creatures like Precursor Golem.
The problems come because no one is saying, "hmm, this just isn't for me". The opinions come in the form of "how could they have designed this?", "So and so can already to this better...", and so on.
I get that there is something of a bias for negative opinion in a forum such as this, but still I get the idea that EDH players are just incredibly hard to please anyway.
Every time I play Kurkesh. I HAVE infinite combos, but my policy is if I'm playing "casual" that I won't search up any infinite combo pieces.
I’m still looking for an alternate angle here. Only thing I know is that I want to play storm the vault in the deck. Perhaps a thopter deck with hellkite tyrant and mechanized production? Or go full historic good stuff?
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.