So, it's 2018 and in both playgroups I regularly play with we still use the Free Partial Paris, and we are super happy with it. Is anybody else still playing by the old Mulligan rules?
(I don't want to start a huge discussion about which is better or who should do what. Merely curious to see if there are more playgroups out there who stuck to the old ways.)
Riku of Two Reflections - Copy, then copy again | Shattergang Brothers - Token Sac&Recur | Gahiji, Honored One - Multiple attack steps | Karametra, God of Harvests - Landfall, Creaturefall, Shroud | Ruhan of the Fomori - Stop hitting yourself | Zurgo Helmsmasher - Equipment&Wraths | Crosis, the Purger - Dragon Tribal Reanimator | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - No stax, just tap and untap fun | Anafenza, the Foremost - Enduring Ideal Enchantress | Sharuum, the Hegemon - Sphinx Tribal Control | Noyan Dar - Spellslinger | The Mimeoplasm - Counterpalooza
Lists can be found here.
Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
We have moved to full mulligans again, first free. Partial Paris was too sketchy for me even before it lost favor "officially". We used it when it was widely accepted, but it always felt too easy to hand sculpt, even if you aren't trying very hard.
I am happier with full mulligans, and if you really need a 2nd free mulligan, at least you can't keep that best card and dump the rest. It all has to go back.
We play with full mulligans, 1 free, scry if you go below 7 cards, and while I do prefer this method, I'm fine with Partial if there's no free one - I believe the overall effect is pretty similar between full to 7 and partial to 6. Partial with a free on the other hand just allows you to sculpt your hand far too much.
Incidentally back when the commander rules recommended a Partial Paris mulligan, they did not allow for a free one, so why so many playgroups used to allow it I don't really understand.
We Partial Paris with the first one “free” in my playgroup. I feel it more often makes for a better game for everyone, actually as it’s been less likely to be mana screwed, at least for me. I don’t think throwing back a couple cards for the next top couple for free the first time is too broken, unless the meta is competitive combos galore, etc. (mine is not). I’ve been very happy with it.
My playgroup I was with immediately changed when they changed the rules and we were quite happy with the change. Fast forwarding to 6-8 months ago when I moved to a new meta. They were giving partial Paris one free and I am the new guy so who am I to complain. I have kind of let them have it as I am outnumbered on the mulligan preference but I will say I have a very big issue with the fact that there is a LOT more fast mana starts not to mention that combo players have a MUCH easier time with it. Luckily there isn't a ton of combo in the meta but when someone from out of town steps in it can be really annoying.
Having played with both I will say it feels a lot better to NOT use partial because it really rewards fast mana and combos. I think that the traditional mulligan strategies forces you to accept a more generic start and it also keeps people from keeping / digging for really specific answers to counter each other in their starts. Overall I would say that it forces better deckbuilding standards and slows the game down a little bit in moving to the new mulligan standards.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Thanks for the replies everybody. I think I understand better now why the free Partial Paris has never been an in issue for us. We simply do not have crazy combo decks that will consistently win in the first turns if they can sculpt their hands. Neither is anyone of us interested in controlling other players during the early game.
One of my playgroups consists of my three closest and oldest friends, and we only meet around two to three times a year for a long commanderpalooza weekend, since we live in different cities. A big part of our reasoning why we didn't adopt the new Mulligan rules was that we really wanted all of our decks to perform to the best of their abilities and not be mana-screwed for these rare games we get to play. If you only get a chance to play each other every blue moon, being stuck at three lands with a bunch of expensive late-game cards in hand really sucks. In addition, we actually do not mind if games progress to the late game stage a bit faster, as this is where most of the memorable action happens. If games are a bit shorter (which I have no idea whether that is actually the case), this is also not necessarily bad, since we get to play more games with different decks during the course of the weekend.
My other regular group in the city where I live is very laid-back and casual, with no cutthroat combo decks, so there never was a problem of some players profiting much more from the Partial Paris than others.
However, after reading some of your comments, I think I will suggest trying the new rules one of these days to experience the difference.
Riku of Two Reflections - Copy, then copy again | Shattergang Brothers - Token Sac&Recur | Gahiji, Honored One - Multiple attack steps | Karametra, God of Harvests - Landfall, Creaturefall, Shroud | Ruhan of the Fomori - Stop hitting yourself | Zurgo Helmsmasher - Equipment&Wraths | Crosis, the Purger - Dragon Tribal Reanimator | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - No stax, just tap and untap fun | Anafenza, the Foremost - Enduring Ideal Enchantress | Sharuum, the Hegemon - Sphinx Tribal Control | Noyan Dar - Spellslinger | The Mimeoplasm - Counterpalooza
Lists can be found here.
Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
Hot singles in my area used to play the partial paris mulligan with abundance. Then something happened, and now they mostly abstain from such methods, erring towards standard operating procedures. My guess is they all got burned by some combo player and partial paris shouldered the blame. In an interesting twist, I've found that the players most adamantly against using the partial paris rules in my area are the ones who have also been hurt the most by using the default mulligan. They tend to find playable hands much less often which has further led to worse games of Magic.
Personally, I'm for whatever leads to good games of Magic. What I like about the partial paris is that it quickly leads to playable hands and that it doesn't require much shuffling. To me, the argument that the partial paris can be abused doesn't hold much water since that really has more to do with the abuser than it does the rules. I tend to use the Gis mulligan the most though (infinite free mulligans. Stop once you have a playable hand).
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The local group uses the standard mulligan rule, full mulligan, first one free. I do not miss partial Paris at all, it was a travesty that, in my opinion, rewarded poor deck building strategies such as including too few lands. Good riddance.
Any deck that needs partial paris to work is a great argument for the abolition of partial paris. Everyone I know uses the standard mulligan rule, with one freebie.
partial paris is kind of broken. My group uses the official rules.
(HOWEVER, if you have a hand with 0 lands, you reveal that you have 0 lands in hand and take another free mull (If you have already mulled to 6, mull to 6)
Standard mulligans, with sometimes (depending on players) the rider of 'take another free if you're stuck, don't abuse it' kind of thing. I'd rather everyone had a playable hand than someone mulliganing down to four (although personally I WILL mulligan that low and make a mental note to check on my land count post-game).
Used to do free partial, but it really does encourage bad deckbuilding a fair bit.
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Ive always been a full mulligan, 1 free then, -1 card person. Others in my playgroups stick to partial but I dont think its worth not playing with them over.
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Incidentally back when the commander rules recommended a Partial Paris mulligan, they did not allow for a free one, so why so many playgroups used to allow it I don't really understand.
It's actually in the CR that the first mulligan is free in multiplayer. It's super silly with Partial but that's why people do it, I suppose.
We've done away with Partial and we're all happier for it.
I'm not sure if "combo" is even really part of the conversation - even most combo decks would mull hard for acceleration. I think most of it boils down to Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. Even very casual decks can create lopsided games if they get to mull hard for Sol Ring and sculpt the rest of their hand.
Honestly, the (heavy air quotes) "recommended" mulligan of Vancouver, first free, no shuffling creates bonkers starts more often than not. It's still a lot of selection. I can't remember the last time I had to go below 6 to find something playable. So I don't think Paris has any benefits over the current mulligan rule, even assuming people aren't sculpting dramatic hands with it.
Incidentally back when the commander rules recommended a Partial Paris mulligan, they did not allow for a free one, so why so many playgroups used to allow it I don't really understand.
It's actually in the CR that the first mulligan is free in multiplayer. It's super silly with Partial but that's why people do it, I suppose.
The current CR rules no longer contain this section since the mulligan change, but the 2013 version had this paragraph (903.8)
The Commander variant uses an alternate mulligan rule. Each time a player takes a mulligan, rather than shuffling his or her entire hand of cards into his or her library, that player exiles any number of cards from his or her hand face down. Then the player draws a number of cards equal to one less than the number of cards he or she exiled this way. That player may look at all cards exiled this way while taking mulligans. Once a player keeps an opening hand, that player shuffles all cards he or she exiled this way into his or her library
(emphasis mine)
By comparison, the section on Vanguard mulligans (902.5) says
If a player takes a mulligan in a Vanguard game, just like in a normal game, that player shuffles his or her hand back into his or her library, then draws a new hand of one fewer cards than he or she had before. (In a multiplayer game, a player’s first mulligan is for the same number of cards as he or she had before.)
The Commander section contains no references to multiplayer overriding the Partial Paris to 1 card less rule.
I'm not trying to argue whether or not taking one free with Partial Paris is correct, rules-wise, simply offering an explanation as to why people assumed that, even when the Commander rules didn't specifically spell it out. If people had played other multiplayer formats before Commander, they may have been familiar with 103.4c ("In a multiplayer game, the first time a player takes a mulligan, he or she draws a new hand
of as many cards as he or she had before. Subsequent hands decrease by one card as normal"), which was the same in 2013 as it is today, and I assume a fair amount of time before that, and I'm guessing they assumed that was the case for Commander as well.
I'm also guessing, although I'm not positive, that before Wizards released any Commander product, they didn't have anything relating to Commander in the CR, so all people had to go on was that generic multiplayer rule.
We used partial paris in my cEDH pod for a little while and it was was widely aggreed upon that it was dubious. It was way too easy to fill out hands with essentially exactly what we neede to win turn 3/4, and the people with slightly less competitive decks were getting no real benefit from it. We now just do one basic free mulligan and things are much fairer.
We used partial paris in my cEDH pod for a little while and it was was widely aggreed upon that it was dubious. It was way too easy to fill out hands with essentially exactly what we neede to win turn 3/4, and the people with slightly less competitive decks were getting no real benefit from it. We now just do one basic free mulligan and things are much fairer.
That's exactly why we still use the partial paris. None of our decks could win in the 3rd or 4th turn. None of us wants to, either.
Riku of Two Reflections - Copy, then copy again | Shattergang Brothers - Token Sac&Recur | Gahiji, Honored One - Multiple attack steps | Karametra, God of Harvests - Landfall, Creaturefall, Shroud | Ruhan of the Fomori - Stop hitting yourself | Zurgo Helmsmasher - Equipment&Wraths | Crosis, the Purger - Dragon Tribal Reanimator | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - No stax, just tap and untap fun | Anafenza, the Foremost - Enduring Ideal Enchantress | Sharuum, the Hegemon - Sphinx Tribal Control | Noyan Dar - Spellslinger | The Mimeoplasm - Counterpalooza
Lists can be found here.
Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
We still use the PP one free mulligan and have never had problems with it. However, infinite combos, lockouts or similar cutthroat strategies are frowned upon in my playgroups and we try to keep the powerlevel at below 75% (No games end before turn 10 ever). One of my playgroup actually runs an internal Tier list so that we can have matchups with decks of similar power level.
The PP one free mulligan makes for good games, which is why we never swapped over after the rules change. To be fair, we have never even tries out the vancouver mulligan, which I realize might be a mistake. However, "fair" decks still do fair things even with great opening hands, and I think about one person being able to sculpt the nuts hand introduces interesting politics and overall dynamics at the table.
Also we often have new people around who have either not played magic much or are unfamiliar with EDh and PP helps them participate in a game. If you bring a friend to join you for their first ever EDH game and they are mana screwed or something, they will not want to play a second game. About the PP encouraging bad deckbuilding: some of the people I play with play EDH ~10 times a year and are not into optimizing their decks. PP helps them immensely.
TLDR: We still use PP one free, but our playgroup plays 50-75% decks with no combos or lockouts. PP is great for new players.
The only thing I'll miss from Partial Paris is letting my opponents all sculpt their hands and then doing a T1 Mountain into Winds of Change. I mean, I still do it, but it feels so much better if they've been sculpting their opening hands.
partial paris is kind of broken. My group uses the official rules.
(HOWEVER, if you have a hand with 0 lands, you reveal that you have 0 lands in hand and take another free mull (If you have already mulled to 6, mull to 6)
I wanna play with your group. My Oops All Spells deck would love it
We've used a similar mulligan to Gash's for over a decade and it's the best mull I've ever tried -
The *only* way to get a mulligan is to reveal a hand of 0,1,6 or 7 lands and petition the table for a mull - they'll usually grant a free full mulligan to you (unless you're a jerk who built to abuse the rule), then anyone at the table can hop on yours and take one even if they don't qualify. Sometimes there's 3 'rounds' of mulls before the game can begin - but most of the time, there's none.
Granting all players agency in the early game is the sole purpose of this mulligan. Having a hand clogged with 12-drops can't be fixed by this method.
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(I don't want to start a huge discussion about which is better or who should do what. Merely curious to see if there are more playgroups out there who stuck to the old ways.)
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I am happier with full mulligans, and if you really need a 2nd free mulligan, at least you can't keep that best card and dump the rest. It all has to go back.
Incidentally back when the commander rules recommended a Partial Paris mulligan, they did not allow for a free one, so why so many playgroups used to allow it I don't really understand.
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Having played with both I will say it feels a lot better to NOT use partial because it really rewards fast mana and combos. I think that the traditional mulligan strategies forces you to accept a more generic start and it also keeps people from keeping / digging for really specific answers to counter each other in their starts. Overall I would say that it forces better deckbuilding standards and slows the game down a little bit in moving to the new mulligan standards.
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One of my playgroups consists of my three closest and oldest friends, and we only meet around two to three times a year for a long commanderpalooza weekend, since we live in different cities. A big part of our reasoning why we didn't adopt the new Mulligan rules was that we really wanted all of our decks to perform to the best of their abilities and not be mana-screwed for these rare games we get to play. If you only get a chance to play each other every blue moon, being stuck at three lands with a bunch of expensive late-game cards in hand really sucks. In addition, we actually do not mind if games progress to the late game stage a bit faster, as this is where most of the memorable action happens. If games are a bit shorter (which I have no idea whether that is actually the case), this is also not necessarily bad, since we get to play more games with different decks during the course of the weekend.
My other regular group in the city where I live is very laid-back and casual, with no cutthroat combo decks, so there never was a problem of some players profiting much more from the Partial Paris than others.
However, after reading some of your comments, I think I will suggest trying the new rules one of these days to experience the difference.
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Lists can be found here.
Personally, I'm for whatever leads to good games of Magic. What I like about the partial paris is that it quickly leads to playable hands and that it doesn't require much shuffling. To me, the argument that the partial paris can be abused doesn't hold much water since that really has more to do with the abuser than it does the rules. I tend to use the Gis mulligan the most though (infinite free mulligans. Stop once you have a playable hand).
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
(HOWEVER, if you have a hand with 0 lands, you reveal that you have 0 lands in hand and take another free mull (If you have already mulled to 6, mull to 6)
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Used to do free partial, but it really does encourage bad deckbuilding a fair bit.
even the people who abused it to combo out fast and hard agree it wasn't good for the health of the format
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
It's actually in the CR that the first mulligan is free in multiplayer. It's super silly with Partial but that's why people do it, I suppose.
We've done away with Partial and we're all happier for it.
I'm not sure if "combo" is even really part of the conversation - even most combo decks would mull hard for acceleration. I think most of it boils down to Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. Even very casual decks can create lopsided games if they get to mull hard for Sol Ring and sculpt the rest of their hand.
Honestly, the (heavy air quotes) "recommended" mulligan of Vancouver, first free, no shuffling creates bonkers starts more often than not. It's still a lot of selection. I can't remember the last time I had to go below 6 to find something playable. So I don't think Paris has any benefits over the current mulligan rule, even assuming people aren't sculpting dramatic hands with it.
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The current CR rules no longer contain this section since the mulligan change, but the 2013 version had this paragraph (903.8)
(emphasis mine)
By comparison, the section on Vanguard mulligans (902.5) says
The Commander section contains no references to multiplayer overriding the Partial Paris to 1 card less rule.
of as many cards as he or she had before. Subsequent hands decrease by one card as normal"), which was the same in 2013 as it is today, and I assume a fair amount of time before that, and I'm guessing they assumed that was the case for Commander as well.
I'm also guessing, although I'm not positive, that before Wizards released any Commander product, they didn't have anything relating to Commander in the CR, so all people had to go on was that generic multiplayer rule.
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Tamanoa - Welcome to the Jungle
Lists can be found here.
The PP one free mulligan makes for good games, which is why we never swapped over after the rules change. To be fair, we have never even tries out the vancouver mulligan, which I realize might be a mistake. However, "fair" decks still do fair things even with great opening hands, and I think about one person being able to sculpt the nuts hand introduces interesting politics and overall dynamics at the table.
Also we often have new people around who have either not played magic much or are unfamiliar with EDh and PP helps them participate in a game. If you bring a friend to join you for their first ever EDH game and they are mana screwed or something, they will not want to play a second game. About the PP encouraging bad deckbuilding: some of the people I play with play EDH ~10 times a year and are not into optimizing their decks. PP helps them immensely.
TLDR: We still use PP one free, but our playgroup plays 50-75% decks with no combos or lockouts. PP is great for new players.
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The *only* way to get a mulligan is to reveal a hand of 0,1,6 or 7 lands and petition the table for a mull - they'll usually grant a free full mulligan to you (unless you're a jerk who built to abuse the rule), then anyone at the table can hop on yours and take one even if they don't qualify. Sometimes there's 3 'rounds' of mulls before the game can begin - but most of the time, there's none.
Granting all players agency in the early game is the sole purpose of this mulligan. Having a hand clogged with 12-drops can't be fixed by this method.