What do people think of 'eminence' commanders that do something from the command zone before they are cast, like Oloro, Ageless Ascetic and the eponymous eminence commanders from the new tribal set? Are they unfair or unreasonable?
Should WotC print 'commanders' that are basically just emblems/vanguards/conspiracies? If so, how strong should they be? It's difficult to argue that some of the real vanguard cards like Sisay aren't absolutely bonkers, but then again Inalla, Archmage Ritualist is already pretty close to a powerful emblem effect that never really needs to leave the command zone. How strong should an effect be if it can't be removed?
Would Sovereign's Realm with a 5-color identity be a fair effect in place of a commander?
How about Incendiary Dissent if it applied to all of your creatures instead of just the named one?
How far is too far?
The cards printed thus far don't really bother me. I suppose one could worry that if such effects become too commonplace, it'll necessitate WotC printing effects that interact with an opponent's command zone, which would risk the very foundation of Commander. It's risky business creating effects that can't be dealt with by definition. Experience counters fell into the same category, I thought.
That's hard to say, in all honesty. Oloro was once one of the biggest PitA's around, but he's since been mitigated. Experience counters also have ways to be interacted with or stopped(Creature and enchantment alike), though more would be quite welcome.
I would say no XP/eminent commander is truly worrisome yet. Given the right deck, ANY commander(even those without eminence and experience counter shenanigans) can be frightening, but I think these mechanics are a way of breathing some interesting new life to the format. The format will likely adapt(even if a ban proves to be necessary), and the next set will provide the next flavor of the year.
Long story short, I'm curious to see what they try next, and have no real opinion(as annoying as it may be to not have interaction).
EDIT: Striking out my error since people skim a little too fast through threads.
I don't mind generals with effects like Oloro or eminence, as long as their in-play effect is FAR MORE powerful than their in-command-zone effects, otherwise there would be no reason to cast them.
And I don't mind eminence style generals having negative effects, perhaps one that forces you cast it early and frequently even. For example:
Fel Prince Desonar B
Legendary Creature - Demon
4/4
Flying, Deathtouch, First Strike, Trample.
At the beginning of your upkeep, if ~ is in the command zone, you loses 3 life.
When ~ enters the battlefield, if it wasn't cast from the command zone, exile it.
I like the in command zone effects, but I think not being able to cast it at all defeats what commander is all about. I think they should sort off follow a formula where they do something while in the command zone to help you achieve X, then as a creature on the battlefield somehow capitalize on X.Easiest example that comes to mind as an example would be a commander that gives you no hand size both in play and in the command zone, allows you to draw an additional card if it's in the command zone during your draw step, and as a creature has P/T equal to the cards in your hand.
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Magic is and has always been a game about matching up against your opponent and having the appropriate response to their threats and vice versa. Abilities that can't be interacted with shouldn't be in the game in my opinion. I realize they haven't printed anything too powerful yet (which is somewhat debatable itself), but the opponent shouldn't be able to get 2 free life every turn unless I'm playing some extremely specific cards. I should be able to say no, I don't like that and here's my response to stop you from doing it. The eminence commanders are even worse than Oloro in being unable to respond to them. It isn't a huge deal to me but I think they're making a mistake every time they print a new card that grants abilities from the command zone.
I don't think it's inherently a bad idea - it's design space to be played with and I think there's responsible ways to use it.
It's a very dangerous place to mess around with, though, because of the inability to interact. What I really hate seeing is commanders that basically broadcast "you need to kill me as quickly as possible because it's statistically nearly impossible to keep me under control." Luckily where I play there are quite a few mediocre decks to water down the occasional dangerous one.
At it's core, I think Commander actually wishes it were Vanguard. From a design perspective, the whole point of Commander seems to be about giving players easy access to cards they wish to build around. Commanders, like vanguards, are focal points for players to build around. The problem with the vanguard cards (and the eminence commanders to some extent) is that it's very difficult to balance free effects. Consequently, it's difficult to design fair eminence commanders because an ability being free really limits what kind of effect that eminnance commander can generate.
I hope we see a new type of commander some day, something that levels up in the command zone when a player performs some sort of task. This could be by triggering some event, like a creature dying, or by simply paying mana. Whatever the case, as these commanders would level up, they would bestow new abilities from the command zone. This would open up a lot of design space for imminence commanders because now the abilities wouldn't be free anymore. Much like actually casting one's commander, these sorts of designs would require some kind of investment before actually producing a bonus. In this regard, I very much look forward to seeing more imminence commanders in future because I think they could actually play better than standard legendary creatures.
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WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
I have never experienced any problems with any of the current "vanguard" commanders. Not sure if I buy into the "can't be interacted with" argument. Bothered by Oloro's life gain? Play Erebos, God of the Dead. Annoyed by Edgar Markovs tokens? Well, therearesolutionsforthat.
Personally, I would like to see something like Tetzimoc, Primal Death, but from the command zone. Obviously the main issue here is balance, but I think it's doable.
Riku of Two Reflections - Copy, then copy again | Shattergang Brothers - Token Sac&Recur | Gahiji, Honored One - Multiple attack steps | Karametra, God of Harvests - Landfall, Creaturefall, Shroud | Ruhan of the Fomori - Stop hitting yourself | Zurgo Helmsmasher - Equipment&Wraths | Crosis, the Purger - Dragon Tribal Reanimator | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - No stax, just tap and untap fun | Anafenza, the Foremost - Enduring Ideal Enchantress | Sharuum, the Hegemon - Sphinx Tribal Control | Noyan Dar - Spellslinger | The Mimeoplasm - Counterpalooza
Lists can be found here.
Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
I have never experienced any problems with any of the current "vanguard" commanders. Not sure if I buy into the "can't be interacted with" argument. Bothered by Oloro's life gain? Play Erebos, God of the Dead. Annoyed by Edgar Markovs tokens? Well, therearesolutionsforthat.
Personally, I would like to see something like Tetzimoc, Primal Death, but from the command zone. Obviously the main issue here is balance, but I think it's doable.
That's like saying you are interacting with Doubling Season by destroying the tokens it made. While yes, you may be eliminating the tokens it created, that is still entirely different from disenchanting the Doubling Season itself. I get what you're saying, but that isn't where people have an issue. Also, it is extremely unreasonable to expect someone to run Erebos in anticipation of maybe running into an Oloro deck. The fact of the matter is we can't interact with the Command Zone. I am 100% with you on these cards can be dealt with in roundabout ways and aren't that powerful, not to mention in multiplayer format just playing archenemy can police a lot of brokeness. You are just twisting things though if you are trying to claim people saying they can't be interacted with are wrong.
I have never experienced any problems with any of the current "vanguard" commanders. Not sure if I buy into the "can't be interacted with" argument. Bothered by Oloro's life gain? Play Erebos, God of the Dead. Annoyed by Edgar Markovs tokens? Well, therearesolutionsforthat.
Personally, I would like to see something like Tetzimoc, Primal Death, but from the command zone. Obviously the main issue here is balance, but I think it's doable.
That's like saying you are interacting with Doubling Season by destroying the tokens it made. While yes, you may be eliminating the tokens it created, that is still entirely different from disenchanting the Doubling Season itself. I get what you're saying, but that isn't where people have an issue. Also, it is extremely unreasonable to expect someone to run Erebos in anticipation of maybe running into an Oloro deck. The fact of the matter is we can't interact with the Command Zone. I am 100% with you on these cards can be dealt with in roundabout ways and aren't that powerful, not to mention in multiplayer format just playing archenemy can police a lot of brokeness. You are just twisting things though if you are trying to claim people saying they can't be interacted with are wrong.
Fair enough. I was thinking in terms of a fixed playgroup where you regularly play with the same people and repeatedly get pounced by that one Oloro deck. And you are of course right that I wasn't technically listing ways to interact with the source of the effects, but counteract the effects themselves. Sorry if I came across as dismissive.
My broader point was really just that I feel none of these effects are game-warping and unanswerable. But granted, I haven't played against a ton of Eminence decks yet...
Riku of Two Reflections - Copy, then copy again | Shattergang Brothers - Token Sac&Recur | Gahiji, Honored One - Multiple attack steps | Karametra, God of Harvests - Landfall, Creaturefall, Shroud | Ruhan of the Fomori - Stop hitting yourself | Zurgo Helmsmasher - Equipment&Wraths | Crosis, the Purger - Dragon Tribal Reanimator | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - No stax, just tap and untap fun | Anafenza, the Foremost - Enduring Ideal Enchantress | Sharuum, the Hegemon - Sphinx Tribal Control | Noyan Dar - Spellslinger | The Mimeoplasm - Counterpalooza
Lists can be found here.
Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
Solemnity works against experience counters, because it says "players", but Vampire Hexmage, does not. Players aren't permanent - after a game or two, they exile as a state-based effect to go out for pizza.
I feel mixed about the topic. While Oloro isn't over-powered, I think he set a bad precedent. After playing him only a couple times and not in a deck full of the low-drop vampires, I can understand why Edgar Markov was banned from 1v1 so quickly. I am glad the designers keep playing with new design space, but I think the commanders that interact with the command zone in some manner have been more bad than good for the format, with Derevi being particularly obnoxious. On the other hand, I think experience counters are pretty neat, and I would like to see them play around with that idea a little more. So, as I said, mixed.
I would pretty much swap out every commander I own for Sovereign Right immediately if that became legal.
The biggest issue for 'eminence' commanders that I see is highlighted pretty well in the above post - it will be the usual EDH theme of undervaluing U or B card advantage in the design process, leading to stuff like free double draw each turn for those commanders while RWG will get some trash like dealing 1 damage to a creature.
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
it will be the usual EDH theme of undervaluing U or B card advantage in the design process, leading to stuff like free double draw each turn for those commanders while RWG will get some trash like dealing 1 damage to a creature.
I feel like they've gotten better about that. Leovold is the last egregious example I can think of.
Still, I can't exactly say I would be surprised if it happened that way.
What really makes me almost-sort-of-want conspiracy-type commanders is the actual conspiracies. They're so neat and they do a fantastic job of giving you that 'unique' feeling where there's something that only you get to do. Cosmic Encounters is a board game that exemplifies that feeling, but Commander in particular also does a good job of it for MTG. How neat would it be if all your stuff had firebreathing? Think of all the cool power-matters cards you could have fun with!
On the other hand, I have yet to face either a well-built InallaorEdgar 1-drops, and it's not something I'm looking forward to. Facing nothing but 5-color goodstuff would get boring like 3 minutes after they officially came out with a Sovereign's Realm commander.
I agree that Ur-Dragon is probably the fairest. It feels more like it gives you access to a super-secret selection of undercosted fatties (that are actually just the same old fatties as before, but they're actually worth playing now). Icefall Regent feels a lot more useful in commander when you're only paying 4 for it.
The Theros gods also seem like a happy middle ground: you need to actually get enough mana to cast them, and they can be removed, it's just difficult.
Maybe emblem-commanders would just need a built-in way to interact with them. Like "At the beginning of your upkeep, if you control 3 or more enchantments, return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand."; that'd be vulnerable to both enchantment removal and graveyard hate. I would have zero issues if they printed that card; it's effectively making your enchantments just a bit stronger just like Ur-Dragon does for dragons.
Also I think experience counter commanders are something different entirely. They're commanders that just get stronger the longer the game goes on; experience counters don't do anything as long as that specific creature isn't on the board. Whether that's unfair or not, it's more akin to Skullbriar, the Walking Grave than it is to the eminence commanders.
That's hard to say, in all honesty. Oloro was once one of the biggest PitA's around, but he's since been mitigated. Experience counters also have ways to be interacted with or stopped(Creature and enchantment alike), though more would be quite welcome.
I would say no XP/eminent commander is truly worrisome yet. Given the right deck, ANY commander(even those without eminence and experience counter shenanigans) can be frightening, but I think these mechanics are a way of breathing some interesting new life to the format. The format will likely adapt(even if a ban proves to be necessary), and the next set will provide the next flavor of the year.
Long story short, I'm curious to see what they try next, and have no real opinion(as annoying as it may be to not have interaction).
Um, Hexmage doesn't stop experience counters.
You can, however, simply remove the commander repeatedly. And yes, rely on land destruction.
TBH, the biggest interaction with the command zone to watch out for would be Prossh and Derevi. Derevi is always available as long as your opponent has access to 1GWU. Obviously not guaranteed, given that a "typical" Derevi deck includes things like Winter Orb. But a "typical" Derevi deck will also include tricks to make Winter Orb suck less for the pilot.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I do love the idea of stopping Edgar Markov through Aether Flash & Co. It'll work exactly once, after which the Edgar player KNOWS you're the first that needs to die. At which point you will. Repeatedly.
That said, while I do rock Edgar myself, I too am not really all that fond about "Just stick me in the command zone and do nothing else" commanders. Edgar at least enables a bunch of cards that are otherwise rather weak on their own to be interesting, but I would prefer it if any future generals would at least need to touch the board to have an impact. Playing a general just for it's colours is...boring, to say the least. And at least the Eminence commanders aren't really good at the "Just play me for my colours" bit, Oloro is and who knows, they might roll with that more often in the future.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I feel like the eminence effects are interesting design space - though I would enjoy seeing some of the sort that work from the command zone, but only if you meet some condition first (think Edgar Markov only triggering if you already had, say, three Vampires or gained life this turn). This way, they could be counterplayed to a degree while at the same time they can be scaled to be potentially stronger effects - and the commanders themselves could be stronger by virtue of their eminence effects not being all of the power. The above example of 'if you have three or more enchantments, return a creature from graveyard to hand' is really nifty one. Think along the lines of Amonkhet gods being able to attack or block - to get the benefit, you first need to be doing something you probably wanted to be doing anyway, but the benefit is not purely from (certain kind of) spells.
On the downside, it would make some textboxes really unwieldy, but hey. I'd rather have that than them going overboard with 'free stuff'.
Anyway, there is design space there. There will probably be some overshoots, but there kinda always seem to be.
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X Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile W Ghosty Blinky Anafenza U Nezahal- Big, Blue and HERE! B Gonti Can Afford It R Etali, Primal 'Whatjusthappened?' G Polukranos Wants More Mana WU The Exalted Vizier Temmet WB Home, Athreos WR Basandra, Recursive Aggression WG Karametra, Momma of Lands UB Wrexial Eats Your Brains UR Arjun, the Mad Flame UG The Fable of Prime Speaker BR Hellbent, Malfegor Style BG Jarad, Death is Served RG Running Thromok WUB Varina and ALL the Zombies WUBYennett, the Odd Pain-Train WUR Zedruu the Furyhearted WUG Arcades' Strategy, Shmategy, Sausage and Spam WBR A Case of Mathas' Persistent F*ckery WBRLicia's League of Legendary Lifegain Layabouts WBG The Karador Advantage PackageWRG Gahiji Rattlesnake Collection UBR Jeleva... does... things UBG Damia's Just Deserts URG Yasova's Has More Power Than Sense BRG Wasitora, Bad Kitty WUBRBreya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs WUBG Tymna and Kydele, Extended Borrowing WURG Kynaios and Tiro, Landfall Impersonations WBRG Saskia Pet Card EnchantressUBRG Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation WUBRG Tazri's Amazing Allies
I hate them. The sweet spot where the effect isn't strong enough to be annoying and isn't weak enough to be pointless is extremely narrow. It Dragon hits it. Cat daddy is underwhelming. Oloro, Edgar, and Inalla all cross over into cheesy bs.
It's an experiment that went 1 for 5 in getting it right. Time to give up on the mechanic. At least experience counters only matter when the commander is on the field, and even then you have to work for them first.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Speak of which, how do people feel about Lieutenant abilities? Would more cards like it encourages people to play their commanders, even if they have eminence?
I think Lieutenant is fine, though most of the actual cards with the ability are a bit underwhelming for their cost. The only one I ever actually run is Thunderfoot Baloth, but I have considered running the demon and the dragon a couple times and could definitely see doing so in the right deck. I think it's an interesting design space, and one I would like to seem them explore further. Same thing with the "commanders matter" cards from C2017, such as Bloodsworn Steward and Crimson Honor Guard. I don't like those specific cards very much - neither vamp even came close to making the cut in either of my two vampire decks - but I like the concept and would like to see them experiment with it further.
its been apparently difficult to balance as some of them are broken, or push the envelope too hard, while others do almost nothing. it also goes a long way in killing interactivity, in a format where many choose to masturbate rather than interact with the table. it kind of needs to go the other way for a longer term health and to change the perception that its a format where everyone stalls until they combo.
I like them, in many ways, but can see how there's room to abuse the vanguard concept. Because the commander zone is sacrosanct, having an advantageous effect that you don't need to play and no one else can interact with is frustrating. That being said, I don't feel like any of the most recent 'Eminence' commanders are overpowered. Inalla, of them all, encourages combo, but even then isn't incredibly dominant.
The 2013 Commanders seem stronger to me, and it seems they've learnt from that lesson. Oloro is the obvious griefy culprit, but Derevi is strong too. Prossh is nuts in a Food chain build, and is strong on its own too. Jeleva is a strong competitive storm option, so clearly there's room to abuse the mechanics surrounding the command zone.
It's not the area I'd most like to see worked on in precons; I really want to see more partner commanders. They're incredibly myriad in the way they combine, and well-balanced and offer a wealth of ways to build. That being said, I'm not averse to seeing further command zone interaction, provided it's well-balanced. I'd like to see mechanics that discourage not playing one's commander - forcing interaction could be interesting indeed.
Should WotC print 'commanders' that are basically just emblems/vanguards/conspiracies? If so, how strong should they be? It's difficult to argue that some of the real vanguard cards like Sisay aren't absolutely bonkers, but then again Inalla, Archmage Ritualist is already pretty close to a powerful emblem effect that never really needs to leave the command zone. How strong should an effect be if it can't be removed?
Would Sovereign's Realm with a 5-color identity be a fair effect in place of a commander?
How about Incendiary Dissent if it applied to all of your creatures instead of just the named one?
How far is too far?
- Rabid Wombat
Creatureand enchantment alike), though more would be quite welcome.I would say no XP/eminent commander is truly worrisome yet. Given the right deck, ANY commander(even those without eminence and experience counter shenanigans) can be frightening, but I think these mechanics are a way of breathing some interesting new life to the format. The format will likely adapt(even if a ban proves to be necessary), and the next set will provide the next flavor of the year.
Long story short, I'm curious to see what they try next, and have no real opinion(as annoying as it may be to not have interaction).
EDIT: Striking out my error since people skim a little too fast through threads.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
And I don't mind eminence style generals having negative effects, perhaps one that forces you cast it early and frequently even. For example:
Fel Prince Desonar
B
Legendary Creature - Demon
4/4
Flying, Deathtouch, First Strike, Trample.
At the beginning of your upkeep, if ~ is in the command zone, you loses 3 life.
When ~ enters the battlefield, if it wasn't cast from the command zone, exile it.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
It's a very dangerous place to mess around with, though, because of the inability to interact. What I really hate seeing is commanders that basically broadcast "you need to kill me as quickly as possible because it's statistically nearly impossible to keep me under control." Luckily where I play there are quite a few mediocre decks to water down the occasional dangerous one.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I hope we see a new type of commander some day, something that levels up in the command zone when a player performs some sort of task. This could be by triggering some event, like a creature dying, or by simply paying mana. Whatever the case, as these commanders would level up, they would bestow new abilities from the command zone. This would open up a lot of design space for imminence commanders because now the abilities wouldn't be free anymore. Much like actually casting one's commander, these sorts of designs would require some kind of investment before actually producing a bonus. In this regard, I very much look forward to seeing more imminence commanders in future because I think they could actually play better than standard legendary creatures.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Personally, I would like to see something like Tetzimoc, Primal Death, but from the command zone. Obviously the main issue here is balance, but I think it's doable.
Tamanoa - Welcome to the Jungle
Lists can be found here.
That's like saying you are interacting with Doubling Season by destroying the tokens it made. While yes, you may be eliminating the tokens it created, that is still entirely different from disenchanting the Doubling Season itself. I get what you're saying, but that isn't where people have an issue. Also, it is extremely unreasonable to expect someone to run Erebos in anticipation of maybe running into an Oloro deck. The fact of the matter is we can't interact with the Command Zone. I am 100% with you on these cards can be dealt with in roundabout ways and aren't that powerful, not to mention in multiplayer format just playing archenemy can police a lot of brokeness. You are just twisting things though if you are trying to claim people saying they can't be interacted with are wrong.
Fair enough. I was thinking in terms of a fixed playgroup where you regularly play with the same people and repeatedly get pounced by that one Oloro deck. And you are of course right that I wasn't technically listing ways to interact with the source of the effects, but counteract the effects themselves. Sorry if I came across as dismissive.
My broader point was really just that I feel none of these effects are game-warping and unanswerable. But granted, I haven't played against a ton of Eminence decks yet...
Tamanoa - Welcome to the Jungle
Lists can be found here.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
The biggest issue for 'eminence' commanders that I see is highlighted pretty well in the above post - it will be the usual EDH theme of undervaluing U or B card advantage in the design process, leading to stuff like free double draw each turn for those commanders while RWG will get some trash like dealing 1 damage to a creature.
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
Still, I can't exactly say I would be surprised if it happened that way.
What really makes me almost-sort-of-want conspiracy-type commanders is the actual conspiracies. They're so neat and they do a fantastic job of giving you that 'unique' feeling where there's something that only you get to do. Cosmic Encounters is a board game that exemplifies that feeling, but Commander in particular also does a good job of it for MTG. How neat would it be if all your stuff had firebreathing? Think of all the cool power-matters cards you could have fun with!
On the other hand, I have yet to face either a well-built Inalla or Edgar 1-drops, and it's not something I'm looking forward to. Facing nothing but 5-color goodstuff would get boring like 3 minutes after they officially came out with a Sovereign's Realm commander.
I agree that Ur-Dragon is probably the fairest. It feels more like it gives you access to a super-secret selection of undercosted fatties (that are actually just the same old fatties as before, but they're actually worth playing now). Icefall Regent feels a lot more useful in commander when you're only paying 4 for it.
The Theros gods also seem like a happy middle ground: you need to actually get enough mana to cast them, and they can be removed, it's just difficult.
Maybe emblem-commanders would just need a built-in way to interact with them. Like "At the beginning of your upkeep, if you control 3 or more enchantments, return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand."; that'd be vulnerable to both enchantment removal and graveyard hate. I would have zero issues if they printed that card; it's effectively making your enchantments just a bit stronger just like Ur-Dragon does for dragons.
Also I think experience counter commanders are something different entirely. They're commanders that just get stronger the longer the game goes on; experience counters don't do anything as long as that specific creature isn't on the board. Whether that's unfair or not, it's more akin to Skullbriar, the Walking Grave than it is to the eminence commanders.
- Rabid Wombat
Um, Hexmage doesn't stop experience counters.
You can, however, simply remove the commander repeatedly. And yes, rely on land destruction.
For eminence, it's easy.
Edgar Markov: Night of Souls' Betrayal, Aether Flash, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Arahbo, Roar of the World: TBH, it's just a Giant Growth effect, and only on your turn. You could just use Story Circle or something. (I haven't heard complaints about Arahbo in particular, but I needed to preemptively dash complaints.)
Inalla, Archmage Ritualist: Torpor Orb and Hushwing Gryff
The Ur-Dragon: Crux of Fate. Plus, you know, "costs 1 less" isn't that much of a discount early on. Do note that it doesn't say "Dragon creature spells", though, so your opponent can still play cards like Nameless Inversion and Blades of Velis Vel and get the discount.
And of course, being tribal effects, all four are already vulnerable to Extinction.
And Oloro, Ageless Ascetic has Erebos, God of the Dead and Tainted Remedy. Or just Kavu Predator.
TBH, the biggest interaction with the command zone to watch out for would be Prossh and Derevi. Derevi is always available as long as your opponent has access to 1GWU. Obviously not guaranteed, given that a "typical" Derevi deck includes things like Winter Orb. But a "typical" Derevi deck will also include tricks to make Winter Orb suck less for the pilot.
On phasing:
That said, while I do rock Edgar myself, I too am not really all that fond about "Just stick me in the command zone and do nothing else" commanders. Edgar at least enables a bunch of cards that are otherwise rather weak on their own to be interesting, but I would prefer it if any future generals would at least need to touch the board to have an impact. Playing a general just for it's colours is...boring, to say the least. And at least the Eminence commanders aren't really good at the "Just play me for my colours" bit, Oloro is and who knows, they might roll with that more often in the future.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
On the downside, it would make some textboxes really unwieldy, but hey. I'd rather have that than them going overboard with 'free stuff'.
Anyway, there is design space there. There will probably be some overshoots, but there kinda always seem to be.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
It's an experiment that went 1 for 5 in getting it right. Time to give up on the mechanic. At least experience counters only matter when the commander is on the field, and even then you have to work for them first.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
its been apparently difficult to balance as some of them are broken, or push the envelope too hard, while others do almost nothing. it also goes a long way in killing interactivity, in a format where many choose to masturbate rather than interact with the table. it kind of needs to go the other way for a longer term health and to change the perception that its a format where everyone stalls until they combo.
The 2013 Commanders seem stronger to me, and it seems they've learnt from that lesson. Oloro is the obvious griefy culprit, but Derevi is strong too. Prossh is nuts in a Food chain build, and is strong on its own too. Jeleva is a strong competitive storm option, so clearly there's room to abuse the mechanics surrounding the command zone.
It's not the area I'd most like to see worked on in precons; I really want to see more partner commanders. They're incredibly myriad in the way they combine, and well-balanced and offer a wealth of ways to build. That being said, I'm not averse to seeing further command zone interaction, provided it's well-balanced. I'd like to see mechanics that discourage not playing one's commander - forcing interaction could be interesting indeed.