Thoughts, opinions on using this card, Vanquisher's Banner in a primarily focused vampire deck? Bought the Vampire Pre-Constructed Commander deck and was wondering if this would work or not.
Anyway, Vanquisher's Banner; absolutely. Any tribal deck can benefit from 'anthem effects' like this, which also includes Metallic Mimic, Door of Destinies, Coat of Arms, etc. Of course, if the text says ALL creatures get the boost, you need to be very watchful of what your opponents are playing(Case in point: Bad Moon helps your opponents playing black as well).
That being said, the banner is a bit of an expensive card, but the anthem AND draw makes it forgivable.
I was shocked to see that Vanquisher's Banner came in the Pirate Based Planeswalker Deck for Rivals of Ixalan (had n idea it did, so when I saw it, I was like, well damn), so figured why not see what everyone's opinion was on it.
Not a problem. Everyone's mileage may vary, but I think overall, most will think it worthwhile. I'm working on a vampire deck myself as you can see, so yeah...best of luck on it.
Assuming you are not playing games where people try to win before turn 5, then it is a serviceable card for Edgar Markov.
Here is the thing, at least in my Edgar Markov deck, I have dedicated slots for different effects. My lands, ramp, card draw, instant speed spot removal, graveyard hate, anthems, protection, and the vampires themselves. Whenever possible, cards will overlap like in this case.
For anthem effects, I prefer to use the following:
Puphoros, God of the Forge - EtB triggers are more important, but it can double as an anthem. Door of Destinies - A dead card late game, it is so strong early that it is worth using a fast tutor to find on turns 1-3 Glory of Warfare - that +2 power boost is so strong that I have thought about Dictate of Heliod and Obelisk of Urd Sorin, Solemn Visitor - The lifelink is why I am wiling to pay 4 for this. It keeps us in games Eldrazi Monument - I use this because it grants indestructible, and often forget that it also gives flying. Vanquisher's Banner - This is the worst anthem in my deck, yet still makes the cut over other anthems.
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here is the thing, Glorious Anthem only costs us 3, so we are paying two more for the potential card draw, which also slows the deck down. That is two more turns you won't get the benefit, which matters, and that you normally don't have nor do you want to follow up by casting a bunch of creatures from you hand to benefit from the card draw.
That being said, Edgar Markov can take more advantage from this card than my wife's cats deck. We are rewarded for casting our creatures with free 1/1 tokens (now 2/2 or larger), and the deck is filled with one, two, and three drop vampires. this also allows us to chain creatures and card draw in a single turn and flood the table and still keeping a full hand.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I use Vanquisher's Banner as some kind of wrath insurance. If I'm not fast enough before my board gets a nuclear strike, it helps bounce back as well, at the cost of a turn. It's definitely not the strongest card in the deck, but I'm very rarely unhappy to see it.
Also Drain Life, I'm finding your lack of Coat of Arms disturbing.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
It's been said, but I'd say it a different way: tribal decks will generally fold to well-tuned combo deck that are designed to win on turn 5 or earlier. If you have a bunch of those in your group, you not only should shy away from Vanquisher's Banner, but probably consider leaving your vampire deck at home.
Assuming, like most groups I see, that this is not the case, then Vanquisher's Banner is amazing in tribal, exactly like Edgar. Like Lou said, it allows you to commit a ton of creatures to the board, which generally people consider over-committing, because the concern is that one board wipe means your game is over, but the card draw from the banner allows you to keep your hand full and continue to develop the board state. In my opinion, this helps make up for one of the main weaknesses in a tribal deck: generally you want to vomit out your hand, but then a wrath decimates you.
I use it in dragons. Dragons needs the card draw and i rather have reusable card draw such as banner, kindred discover or temur ascendancy.
I would also take a look at The immortal sun
Cost reduction, card draw, anthem and shut down PWs for only 1 more mana. I run both banner and immortal sun.
That being said, the banner is a bit of an expensive card, but the anthem AND draw makes it forgivable.
That kind of card draw on a colorless card can be worth it just on its own. So, every time I cast a creature spell of the appropriate type, I cantrip? (Sure, it doesn't do that for morphs or tokens, but still...)
If you're playing aggro in this format, you need anthems, and better to get ones like this, Spear of Heliod, and Caged Sun that do something else as well. (I'm also fond of Marshal's Anthem for the same reason.) Or ones that are at least +2/+2.
Be sure to include The Immortal Sun as well, unless you were planning on having Sorin poop out more vampires.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I've not considered it for Edgar. The draw should make it an option for my deck I guess, but I still prefer Door of Destinies. +1/+1 is nothing on +huge/+huge, especially when your curve is low. The only reason it's in there is I don't have a lot of spells on the same part of the curve as this. Casting it around 1 and two drops is easy. I'd struggle to justify it in something like dragons, as I'd be looking to land or have already landed dragons at about T5 anyway.
All this being said, outcryqq is right. Even a well tuned tribal deck is more for a fun times group than competitive play. Barring maybe elfball combo decks, but that's a whole different kettle of fish.
That being said, the banner is a bit of an expensive card, but the anthem AND draw makes it forgivable.
That kind of card draw on a colorless card can be worth it just on its own. So, every time I cast a creature spell of the appropriate type, I cantrip? (Sure, it doesn't do that for morphs or tokens, but still...)
If you're playing aggro in this format, you need anthems, and better to get ones like this, Spear of Heliod, and Caged Sun that do something else as well. (I'm also fond of Marshal's Anthem for the same reason.) Or ones that are at least +2/+2.
Be sure to include The Immortal Sun as well, unless you were planning on having Sorin poop out more vampires.
are you suggesting banner for tokens? You only get the draw for cast on banner. Not ETB.
That being said, the banner is a bit of an expensive card, but the anthem AND draw makes it forgivable.
That kind of card draw on a colorless card can be worth it just on its own. So, every time I cast a creature spell of the appropriate type, I cantrip? (Sure, it doesn't do that for morphs or tokens, but still...)
If you're playing aggro in this format, you need anthems, and better to get ones like this, Spear of Heliod, and Caged Sun that do something else as well. (I'm also fond of Marshal's Anthem for the same reason.) Or ones that are at least +2/+2.
Be sure to include The Immortal Sun as well, unless you were planning on having Sorin poop out more vampires.
are you suggesting banner for tokens? You only get the draw for cast on banner. Not ETB.
I was thinking of all the anthem effects a tribal deck tends to have, TBH.
There are several types of synergies within tribal cards, and it's important to know the difference. You can't draw a card off Banner from tokens (or from a self-animating noncreature permanent), but, so long as they're the chosen creature type, you do get +1/+1 from banner. For vampires, Rakish Heir makes them sliths, Bloodline Keeper gives them +2/+2, etc.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
That being said, the banner is a bit of an expensive card, but the anthem AND draw makes it forgivable.
That kind of card draw on a colorless card can be worth it just on its own. So, every time I cast a creature spell of the appropriate type, I cantrip? (Sure, it doesn't do that for morphs or tokens, but still...)
If you're playing aggro in this format, you need anthems, and better to get ones like this, Spear of Heliod, and Caged Sun that do something else as well. (I'm also fond of Marshal's Anthem for the same reason.) Or ones that are at least +2/+2.
Be sure to include The Immortal Sun as well, unless you were planning on having Sorin poop out more vampires.
are you suggesting banner for tokens? You only get the draw for cast on banner. Not ETB.
I was thinking of all the anthem effects a tribal deck tends to have, TBH.
There are several types of synergies within tribal cards, and it's important to know the difference. You can't draw a card off Banner from tokens (or from a self-animating noncreature permanent), but, so long as they're the chosen creature type, you do get +1/+1 from banner. For vampires, Rakish Heir makes them sliths, Bloodline Keeper gives them +2/+2, etc.
Still you are paying 5 mana to get an anthem that s not the best if you are ot utilizing all effects of it. I mean if you are going token tribal, dont run banner. If you are going edgar, it is not bad.
I would however trade that space out for Elesh-norn. She offers (Essentially) +4/+4
SOme may complain she is not a vampire but in a deck taht can utilize it properly, why not I run Sheoldred in Dragons (Unlike vampirs. Elesh (While pumping my creatures) doe snot pump them to the point of their huge bodies looking much bigger. (though one card has not been performng at all, i think I will trade that out for elesh.)
In a vampire, elf, merfolk, soldier,goblin, etc. deck looking to go wide with low cmc creatures, vanquisher's banner is a really good addition. Mathematically speakin, the +1/+1 pump ends up being quite a significant addition to your clock while the card draw does work when you're spamming creatures. In addition, it makes those same low cmc creatures less of dead draws in the late game, as your edgar markov deck would do.
If your tribe is dragons, giants, treefolk, angels, etc. then vanquisher's banner isn't great. I ran it in my giants deck for a while, but since I rarely have more than like 3 or 4 giants out, there are better effects (like equipment) that just give better boosts for what I am doing.
You still get it from your nontoken creatures, no?
Most tribal decks mix token generators and nontoken creatures. Banner means I would cantrip off Bloodline Keeper, but not his vampire tokens. Does that make sense?
But my point remains, unless you plan on using Sorin to poop out vampires and emblems, The Immortal Sun is also a nice addition: Anthem, extra card draw, makes your spells cheaper, and (if your meta demands it) shuts down opponents' planeswalkers.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Also Drain Life, I'm finding your lack of Coat of Arms disturbing.
I almost never run Coat of Arms, and don't run it in Edgar. I stopped using it after seeing too many times when it benefited an opponent more than it did the person who cast it. A deck doesn't have to be specifically tribal to include, for example, a bunch of humans, or a bunch of the same token.
I don't play with super-competitive people who try to win on the first few turns, so the Banner is fine. The card draw is an excellent thing.
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Anyway, Vanquisher's Banner; absolutely. Any tribal deck can benefit from 'anthem effects' like this, which also includes Metallic Mimic, Door of Destinies, Coat of Arms, etc. Of course, if the text says ALL creatures get the boost, you need to be very watchful of what your opponents are playing(Case in point: Bad Moon helps your opponents playing black as well).
That being said, the banner is a bit of an expensive card, but the anthem AND draw makes it forgivable.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Here is the thing, at least in my Edgar Markov deck, I have dedicated slots for different effects. My lands, ramp, card draw, instant speed spot removal, graveyard hate, anthems, protection, and the vampires themselves. Whenever possible, cards will overlap like in this case.
For anthem effects, I prefer to use the following:
Puphoros, God of the Forge - EtB triggers are more important, but it can double as an anthem.
Door of Destinies - A dead card late game, it is so strong early that it is worth using a fast tutor to find on turns 1-3
Glory of Warfare - that +2 power boost is so strong that I have thought about Dictate of Heliod and Obelisk of Urd
Sorin, Solemn Visitor - The lifelink is why I am wiling to pay 4 for this. It keeps us in games
Eldrazi Monument - I use this because it grants indestructible, and often forget that it also gives flying.
Vanquisher's Banner - This is the worst anthem in my deck, yet still makes the cut over other anthems.
============================================
here is the thing, Glorious Anthem only costs us 3, so we are paying two more for the potential card draw, which also slows the deck down. That is two more turns you won't get the benefit, which matters, and that you normally don't have nor do you want to follow up by casting a bunch of creatures from you hand to benefit from the card draw.
That being said, Edgar Markov can take more advantage from this card than my wife's cats deck. We are rewarded for casting our creatures with free 1/1 tokens (now 2/2 or larger), and the deck is filled with one, two, and three drop vampires. this also allows us to chain creatures and card draw in a single turn and flood the table and still keeping a full hand.
Also Drain Life, I'm finding your lack of Coat of Arms disturbing.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Assuming, like most groups I see, that this is not the case, then Vanquisher's Banner is amazing in tribal, exactly like Edgar. Like Lou said, it allows you to commit a ton of creatures to the board, which generally people consider over-committing, because the concern is that one board wipe means your game is over, but the card draw from the banner allows you to keep your hand full and continue to develop the board state. In my opinion, this helps make up for one of the main weaknesses in a tribal deck: generally you want to vomit out your hand, but then a wrath decimates you.
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[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsI would also take a look at The immortal sun
Cost reduction, card draw, anthem and shut down PWs for only 1 more mana. I run both banner and immortal sun.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
That kind of card draw on a colorless card can be worth it just on its own. So, every time I cast a creature spell of the appropriate type, I cantrip? (Sure, it doesn't do that for morphs or tokens, but still...)
If you're playing aggro in this format, you need anthems, and better to get ones like this, Spear of Heliod, and Caged Sun that do something else as well. (I'm also fond of Marshal's Anthem for the same reason.) Or ones that are at least +2/+2.
Be sure to include The Immortal Sun as well, unless you were planning on having Sorin poop out more vampires.
On phasing:
All this being said, outcryqq is right. Even a well tuned tribal deck is more for a fun times group than competitive play. Barring maybe elfball combo decks, but that's a whole different kettle of fish.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
I was thinking of all the anthem effects a tribal deck tends to have, TBH.
There are several types of synergies within tribal cards, and it's important to know the difference. You can't draw a card off Banner from tokens (or from a self-animating noncreature permanent), but, so long as they're the chosen creature type, you do get +1/+1 from banner. For vampires, Rakish Heir makes them sliths, Bloodline Keeper gives them +2/+2, etc.
On phasing:
Still you are paying 5 mana to get an anthem that s not the best if you are ot utilizing all effects of it. I mean if you are going token tribal, dont run banner. If you are going edgar, it is not bad.
I would however trade that space out for Elesh-norn. She offers (Essentially) +4/+4
SOme may complain she is not a vampire but in a deck taht can utilize it properly, why not I run Sheoldred in Dragons (Unlike vampirs. Elesh (While pumping my creatures) doe snot pump them to the point of their huge bodies looking much bigger. (though one card has not been performng at all, i think I will trade that out for elesh.)
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
If your tribe is dragons, giants, treefolk, angels, etc. then vanquisher's banner isn't great. I ran it in my giants deck for a while, but since I rarely have more than like 3 or 4 giants out, there are better effects (like equipment) that just give better boosts for what I am doing.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
You still get it from your nontoken creatures, no?
Most tribal decks mix token generators and nontoken creatures. Banner means I would cantrip off Bloodline Keeper, but not his vampire tokens. Does that make sense?
But my point remains, unless you plan on using Sorin to poop out vampires and emblems, The Immortal Sun is also a nice addition: Anthem, extra card draw, makes your spells cheaper, and (if your meta demands it) shuts down opponents' planeswalkers.
On phasing:
I almost never run Coat of Arms, and don't run it in Edgar. I stopped using it after seeing too many times when it benefited an opponent more than it did the person who cast it. A deck doesn't have to be specifically tribal to include, for example, a bunch of humans, or a bunch of the same token.
I don't play with super-competitive people who try to win on the first few turns, so the Banner is fine. The card draw is an excellent thing.