I've been trying to put together an EDH deck with the ability to "change tempo" extremely fast. I've decided to exclude combos (I already have a Hermit Druid combo deck to pull out if needed), so I'm looking for win conditions of the more traditional sort. The deck I've been working on the most is an Oloro control build, but I'm curious about these kind of win conditions in other colors too.
Let me give you a perfect example of what I'm looking for: Vedalken Orrery + Martial Coup (X>5, cast at the opponent before me's EOT) + Mirror Entity
Not considering any non-creature permanents that makes attacking difficult, this turns the tables extremely quickly, dealing very large amounts of damage in a very "fair" way. I like the idea of sitting back for a good while, playing control and building my resources while keeping the others in check (or at least away from me), only to suddenly reset the board and build a lightning fast, winning board state.
It doesn't necessarily have to be creature damage though. Recently, Vicious Shadows along with a token producer and a sac outlet caught my eye and prompted me to build a token ETB/sac list...
I really like Purphoros, God of the Forge and any type of token producer. Avenger of Zendikar fits the bill, but there are plenty of others, including in red. This isn't a combo, but can nearly finish a table on an empty board. Can also be tutored into play with Tooth and Nail, in case that's up your alley.
Hey Outcryqq, thanks for the reply! Yeah, I've had my eyes on Purph ever since a guy in my playgroup pulled out a Marath deck a few years ago and started taking out the table with that interaction! The sac list I'm purchasing cards for right now tries to maximize tokens on both their way in and out:
In Purphoros, God of the Forge Impact Tremors
Out Vicious Shadows Zulaport Cutthroat
(Also considering Vela the Night-Clad)
All the while using the best sac outlets such as Sadistic Hypnotist Attrition
and the Altars
Winning like this, without attacking, also gets around the Propaganda effects that have started to pop up in my playgroup's meta...
Sweet. Depending on your list, Panharmonicon might end up being a good addition. A lot of non-combo, non-combat wins involve ETB triggers, and this will make them hit twice as hard.
But, you should probably nail down the nuances of the objective for not including "combos". And, let me know what you come up with while you're at it. Because in my mind, most players would consider those to be the actual criteria of a "combo", leading to an immediate win from an empty board.
Also, Debt to the Deathless is a combo by itself, especially when you have Cabal Coffers down. Or, so I have been told by multiple people.
And not to be forgotten, Primal Wellspring is a "combo" if the spell you cast with it kills someone. Or if you somehow kill someone with a Torment of Hailfire, that card is a combo. Or I guess in that instance, it is a "combo" with your mana producing lands.
In all sincerity, people will tell you this basically any time you build a deck capable of winning from an empty board state. Just a word of caution.
Sweet. Depending on your list, Panharmonicon might end up being a good addition. A lot of non-combo, non-combat wins involve ETB triggers, and this will make them hit twice as hard.
But, you should probably nail down the nuances of the objective for not including "combos". And, let me know what you come up with while you're at it. Because in my mind, most players would consider those to be the actual criteria of a "combo", leading to an immediate win from an empty board.
Also, Debt to the Deathless is a combo by itself, especially when you have Cabal Coffers down. Or, so I have been told by multiple people.
And not to be forgotten, Primal Wellspring is a "combo" if the spell you cast with it kills someone. Or if you somehow kill someone with a Torment of Hailfire, that card is a combo. Or I guess in that instance, it is a "combo" with your mana producing lands.
In all sincerity, people will tell you this basically any time you build a deck capable of winning from an empty board state. Just a word of caution.
Thanks for the reply, Jusstice!
Wow, I've never thought about it this way, but you're totally right. I'm surprised this hasn't occurred to me earlier. I guess what I'm doing is balancing on the line of what a combo technically is and what things could "feel" like a combo. Maybe the difference between "combo" and "really strong synergy". Precisely as you're saying, what a combo does is that it wins out of nowhere and in an instant, with very little time or possibility for the opponents to interact with it and stop it. I guess what I've been trying to do is widen that instant to a slightly longer moment of possible interaction for my opponents, but yeah - I'm certainly pushing the line here...
The idea was born out of a multitude of classic, drawn out EDH games, where sweepers kept resetting the board and the one coming out of the gates the fastest would gain an enormous advantage (at least for the next period of the game, until the next sweeper reset...) and maybe even get to take out a player or two. So I set out to build a deck that would be able to reset the board often, and then be the absolute fastest one on the board after that. The example with Martial Coup in my first post embodies this perfectly. But yes, I guess at the very core this comes down to the old "win or have fun" tension; Do I want to come out of the gates so fast that I leave everyone with almost the same feeling as after a combo defeat, or do I slow down my deck enough to evade that feeling, giving up a lot of wins in the process... Guess I'll have to build a "slow win" deck to put in the bag as well, luckily one can't have too many EDH decks right?
Most of the time, all the other pieces work to find other stuff and set up a controlling board state but serve for this as well. It's a little something to speed things up compared to the rest of the win cons which are rather grindy and work mainly against one person at a time since people wanted things less time-consuming.
As an aside, Realms Uncharted is extremely good in this format but I don't see others run it in my group.
Do you mean non infinite combo wins? Because I hate to bring science to the table but, Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage or Tooth and Nail into Craterhoof/Purphoros and Avenger of Zendikar are all combos.
The only deck I have that just wins out of nowhere is Zirilan of the claw but the whole deck is focused on enabling him so there isn't a lot of room for a theme.
I've had significant success at this with "monored control", but the "control" part of that is admittedly pretty iffy. You just run a number of solid red boardwipes like Blasphemous Act or Chain Reaction and a few copyspells like Wild Ricochet or Ricochet Trap that might foul up a dastardly plan or two until you have the requisite Howl of the Horde and/or Increasing Vengeance alongside a good, scaling burn spell like Acidic Soil
Though my experience there is that I only ever manage to take out one person, and then I'm wide open. Or else I take out everyone at once, myself included. People rarely complain about monored though, unless your general is something abusive like Heartless Hidetsugu.
Anything that comes out EoT on the prior turn (or on the same turn, as with Tooth and Nail) and then simply wins is likely to be considered a combo. If opponents have at least a sorcery-speed opportunity to react, even if it's a very difficult board state to react to (e.g. giant indestructible death army underneath Dense Foliage) then they usually agree that it's fair. If the only way to stop you is for them to have either a counterspell or instant-speed removal, especially if it needs to be specialized instant-speed removal like Krosan Grip, then it feels "cheap". This also varies on the general strength of answers that people run within your meta. I find that if everyone is playing hard control then nobody complains about combos too much.
I will say though, haste creatures are often an exception to this rule as long as the act of the creature attacking doesn't generate an infinite of some sort (i.e. not Jeleva, Kaalia, or Narset) and they don't let you kill all of the other players from full life, like Craterhoof+Avenger does. In fact, killing someone who is already at less than full life does tend to feel justified in general. You could try playing a few 'slow-death' cards like Spiteful Visions, Shrieking Affliction, Bloodchief Ascension, etc. and then win with a sudden large-but-not-40 hit to everyone, from Exsanguinate or something.
Another alternative is to use something that everyone sees coming, as a sort of challenge for them to try to bust past your wall of counterspells and control. Luminarch Ascension is a good example here, as are any number of noncreature permanents that 'grow' in some way (Assemble the Legion, Door of Destinies, Oracle's Vault, and others).
Most of the time, all the other pieces work to find other stuff and set up a controlling board state but serve for this as well. It's a little something to speed things up compared to the rest of the win cons which are rather grindy and work mainly against one person at a time since people wanted things less time-consuming.
As an aside, Realms Uncharted is extremely good in this format but I don't see others run it in my group.
Good note, I tend to forget about the ol' Marit! With the recursion you mentioned, it really becomes a tough threat.
Do you mean non infinite combo wins? Because I hate to bring science to the table but, Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage or Tooth and Nail into Craterhoof/Purphoros and Avenger of Zendikar are all combos.
Exactly darrenhabib, I meant infinite, "win-on-the-spot" combos. I realize now that I should have been more clear in my first post. In my head, and when I talk about this with friends, we always say just "combo" when we're actually talking about infinite lethal combos. Although, my vagueness has sparked an interesting discussion that I'm glad came up!
The only deck I have that just wins out of nowhere is Zirilan of the claw but the whole deck is focused on enabling him so there isn't a lot of room for a theme.
Thank you Narvuntien, haste is a good mention. My shenanigans with Vedalken Orrery/Leyline of Anticipation/Alchemist's Refuge has been my "version of haste" for so long that I've never thoroughly investigated the actual haste enablers in the format! Although my first EDH deck ever was a pre-con Maelstrom Wanderer deck, so I've played a lot with him and different lists with him. When I think about it, traditional haste seem a tiny tiny bit more "fair" compared to the "prior turn EOT plays" I've mentioned in the thread, but in reality it's pretty much the same I guess. But yeah, it's a pretty neat feeling; sitting with an active haste enabler and making all your opponents uneasy about what's going to happen on each of your turns!
I've had significant success at this with "monored control", but the "control" part of that is admittedly pretty iffy. You just run a number of solid red boardwipes like Blasphemous Act or Chain Reaction and a few copyspells like Wild Ricochet or Ricochet Trap that might foul up a dastardly plan or two until you have the requisite Howl of the Horde and/or Increasing Vengeance alongside a good, scaling burn spell like Acidic Soil
Though my experience there is that I only ever manage to take out one person, and then I'm wide open. Or else I take out everyone at once, myself included. People rarely complain about monored though, unless your general is something abusive like Heartless Hidetsugu.
Anything that comes out EoT on the prior turn (or on the same turn, as with Tooth and Nail) and then simply wins is likely to be considered a combo. If opponents have at least a sorcery-speed opportunity to react, even if it's a very difficult board state to react to (e.g. giant indestructible death army underneath Dense Foliage) then they usually agree that it's fair. If the only way to stop you is for them to have either a counterspell or instant-speed removal, especially if it needs to be specialized instant-speed removal like Krosan Grip, then it feels "cheap". This also varies on the general strength of answers that people run within your meta. I find that if everyone is playing hard control then nobody complains about combos too much.
I will say though, haste creatures are often an exception to this rule as long as the act of the creature attacking doesn't generate an infinite of some sort (i.e. not Jeleva, Kaalia, or Narset) and they don't let you kill all of the other players from full life, like Craterhoof+Avenger does. In fact, killing someone who is already at less than full life does tend to feel justified in general. You could try playing a few 'slow-death' cards like Spiteful Visions, Shrieking Affliction, Bloodchief Ascension, etc. and then win with a sudden large-but-not-40 hit to everyone, from Exsanguinate or something.
Another alternative is to use something that everyone sees coming, as a sort of challenge for them to try to bust past your wall of counterspells and control. Luminarch Ascension is a good example here, as are any number of noncreature permanents that 'grow' in some way (Assemble the Legion, Door of Destinies, Oracle's Vault, and others).
Monored control sounds really interesting! I've always liked the underdog feeling of monored in EDH. For long now, I've had a proxy version of Gaka's Norin deck - always a blast!
Yes, I'm starting to see that now. Widening the time window of response across the prior turn's EOT up until my attack phase still doesn't enable anything other than instant speed answers - pretty much the same case as with infinite combos. Maybe it's time to tune down the tempo a bit, and go for what you described - a powerful, hard-to-answer board state, but one that doesn't win until everyone has had at least one shot at a sorcery speed answer.
Exactly, as I wrote above, haste does "feel" more fair in some strange way, even if it results in a sudden win that no one had the ability to foresee. Maybe it's because the other players know that they should play a bit more defensively and have answers/blockers ready, especially in the case where a forerunner haste enabler hits the table first, signaling that the next turn can be potentially very dangerous if your shields aren't up.
Hmm, I have to start thinking about win cons that feel fair, more towards the traditional type, but at the same time aren't too slow... I don't have anything against grinding people down with big creatures, but I feel that the gap up to the really fast wins is a bit too big. If I'm to control the table for a while and when the timing is right, land my big beaters and start eating life totals, I would want the attack force to be able to work on all my opponents at once and in a fair pace, not dealing 5-15 damage to one player each combat phase. I'm thinking a bit along the Blade of Selves lines... It will be tricky to find the right pace of killing the whole table!
Wow, I really like your thinking with Luminarch Ascension type cards! (That one has slipped under my radar for far too long, a little embarrassing since I've been building Oloro lists so often and so frequently!) It's a bit like, "This card is not over-powered or unfair by itself, but if you're not ready for it and can't find an answer in the following turns, then it grows out of control"! I like that, and that you kind of push over the burden onto your opponents, sort of avoiding the "full blame for the win" like you would suffer from an infinite lethal combo win. Sure, one could argue that an infinite combo win also could be blamed upon the opponents for not being prepared and playing decks with enough/right answers, but this again gives them more time and more possibilities.
Okey, so maybe a new question then! What more cards do we have that by themselves grow incrementally stronger the more turns they're left unanswered?
If you still want to use infinite combos there are still ways to make them fair. Increasing the number of cards required, amount of mana needed or the number of vulnerabilities in the combo are all ways to make things more fair.
For example a pet combo of mine is Djinn Illuminatis+Pact of the Titan+ haste. I dig this combo but it is INCREDIBLY easy to break up. Its at least three cards. At bare minimum its 8 mana(okay I guess 7 if Anger is your haste enabler). And its vulnerable, not only to the usual creature removal and counterspells but to whatever removes your haste enabler AND further still it outright causes the user to lose if someone Fogs.
Another way is to build oops I win synergies into your deck. Take my Ramos +1+/1 counters deck. One of my favorite oops I win cards in the deck is Enduring Scalelord. The only thing I havr built into the deck for that card is Altered Ego and Progenitor Mimic however the Scalelord also proved the key component in an oops I win moment a month or so ago. Despite having only 6 lands late into the gamr I had managed to build a rather thretening boardstate thanks to Hardened Scales and Gyre Sage. So the Meren player used Living Death but didn't realize that in my graveyard was Scalelord, Sage of Hours, and Ghave, Guru of Spores. On my next turn I proceeded to, more or less accidentally, take infinite turns and win the game. Including things that are good on their own but happen to go off with other things but is not something you're actually aiming for in the course of the game can help make these sort of combos less consistent and thus more fair.
Titania, Protector of Argoth can be incredibly explosive. It's not uncommon for me to start a turn with 7-8 lands and my general in play, and yet swing with over 100 power of trampling creatures that turn. When you can turn lands into 5/3s which then can be turned into card draw then back into lands and mana and then repeat the process into haste and Hoofy, things can get very crazy very quickly...
Okey, so maybe a new question then! What more cards do we have that by themselves grow incrementally stronger the more turns they're left unanswered?
Far too many to count, but most of them are pretty slow about it by commander standards (e.g. Scute Mob, Dragonmaster Outcast, Falkenrath Marauders, Lightning Reaver, Predator Ooze, etc. etc.) I like some of these, especially Lightning Reaver, but you don't want more than one or two of these creatures or you'll get wrath'd out alongside everyone else. I find noncreature effects to be more consistent since they're harder to kill.
Jhoira of the Ghitu can be fun as long as you don't play a bunch of destroy-everything red spells like Obliterate and Jokulhaups. She draws a lot of hate though, mostly because people assume you'll be playing those spells.
Also, I have heard from the experiences of others that cards that don't work unless your opponent does something tend to make opponents feel better about them. For example, Backlash and Boros Fury-Shield are turning the tables on people for having big creatures, particularly great with Furnace of Rath effects. Also, Molten Psyche is superb with fork effects, that and cards like Sudden Impact, Vicious Shadows, etc, could be seen as just punishing players for hoarding cards.
Of course the flip side, they are prone to doing next to nothing against certain things, like Laboratory Maniac setups, or just gradual chip damage off of efficient spells and creatures. Although, I did see a Leyline of Anticipation enable a player to respond to a Mikaeus the Unhallowed-Triskelion combo with Bitter Ordeal and Temple Bell. It was not at all designed that way, but it was memorable because it was this exact thing of using another player's setup to achieve the win.
If you still want to use infinite combos there are still ways to make them fair. Increasing the number of cards required, amount of mana needed or the number of vulnerabilities in the combo are all ways to make things more fair.
For example a pet combo of mine is Djinn Illuminatus+Pact of the Titan+ haste. I dig this combo but it is INCREDIBLY easy to break up. Its at least three cards. At bare minimum its 8 mana(okay I guess 7 if Anger is your haste enabler). And its vulnerable, not only to the usual creature removal and counterspells but to whatever removes your haste enabler AND further still it outright causes the user to lose if someone Fogs.
Another way is to build oops I win synergies into your deck. Take my Ramos +1+/1 counters deck. One of my favorite oops I win cards in the deck is Enduring Scalelord. The only thing I havr built into the deck for that card is Altered Ego and Progenitor Mimic however the Scalelord also proved the key component in an oops I win moment a month or so ago. Despite having only 6 lands late into the gamr I had managed to build a rather thretening boardstate thanks to Hardened Scales and Gyre Sage. So the Meren player used Living Death but didn't realize that in my graveyard was Scalelord, Sage of Hours, and Ghave, Guru of Spores. On my next turn I proceeded to, more or less accidentally, take infinite turns and win the game. Including things that are good on their own but happen to go off with other things but is not something you're actually aiming for in the course of the game can help make these sort of combos less consistent and thus more fair.
Thanks for the cool suggestions (that pact combo was spicy!). True, infinite combos can be more or less fair, depending on their fragility and consistency. Although right now, I'm liking the challenge of avoiding them completely in this deck and going full on in my Hermit deck.
Yeah, we've encountered some "Oops this is a combo" moments in our meta. Back when we were more restrictive with them, we just decided on some house rules so the cards that interacted still could be kept in the deck because they were good/fun, but for example we used to limit the number of allowed iterations to, like, three. Or whatever felt balanced at the time. Now we seem to be a bit more liberal, but if I decide on cards that could go infinite in this list, I will before a game with this deck announce that if they come up together, I will limit the iterations to what the feels like a balanced number.
Titania, Protector of Argoth can be incredibly explosive. It's not uncommon for me to start a turn with 7-8 lands and my general in play, and yet swing with over 100 power of trampling creatures that turn. When you can turn lands into 5/3s which then can be turned into card draw then back into lands and mana and then repeat the process into haste and Hoofy, things can get very crazy very quickly...
That value chain!!! Although I've tried mono-G before, and I always miss certain elements from other colors...
Okey, so maybe a new question then! What more cards do we have that by themselves grow incrementally stronger the more turns they're left unanswered?
Far too many to count, but most of them are pretty slow about it by commander standards (e.g. Scute Mob, Dragonmaster Outcast, Falkenrath Marauders, Lightning Reaver, Predator Ooze, etc. etc.) I like some of these, especially Lightning Reaver, but you don't want more than one or two of these creatures or you'll get wrath'd out alongside everyone else. I find noncreature effects to be more consistent since they're harder to kill.
Jhoira of the Ghitu can be fun as long as you don't play a bunch of destroy-everything red spells like Obliterate and Jokulhaups. She draws a lot of hate though, mostly because people assume you'll be playing those spells.
Yeah, I felt as I wrote the question that depending on how you interpret it, the number of cards that fit that bill could be enormous! But I kind of hoped that people would understand that and only suggest their top contenders. Because in a way, any growing board state of creatures buffing each other or getting buffed by for example your mentioned Door of Destinies, is something that needs to be answered quickly. And that is kind of the whole environment of EDH (casual, anyway); keeping each other in check, sweeping and resetting, re-building... (Kind of back to where this thread started, with sweeping and re-building the fastest!)
But I really felt on to something when you mentioned Luminarch Ascension. It has speed, more than slowly building a threatening creature board state or trying to get Lightning Reaver or the shrines up to speed. Because when it gets dangerous, it gets real dangerous and real fast. And it doesn't need help from other cards at all, just some form of defense, so you can just devote more slots to defense, counterspells and needed answers for others shenanigans.
Yes, I thought that someone would mention planeswalkers. They fit the bill quite perfectly. Trouble is, I have kind of already tried the maxed out version of that... I actually built this list, minus the five most expensive cards. A lot of fun! Feels really cool to play a deck that attacks from such a unique angle. Only one problem. Every time I pulled that deck out, my opponents really came together in a beautiful way to keep every walker off the table and every defense piece eliminated ASAP. If I could stick Humility and recur it once or twice, I could manage. But I eventually lost the feeling for the deck, since it either shut down everyone else so hard or got shut down itself very abruptly. Maybe I played it sub-optimally, or misused politics. But anyway, I think I should review the planeswalkers again and see which ones fit the "Luminarch" bill the best.
Though I'm a bit weary of threats that can be handled by my opponents' creatures, in the same way I agree with you on leaning towards non creature permanents that cannot be removed as easily as creatures. That's another reason I like the Luminarch - of the non creature permanent types available I've been looking at enchantments more and more the last few weeks, mostly because they are a tiny bit harder to remove in general (white and green can handle both artifacts and enchantments, red can handle artifacts, but grixis colors all have a difficult time with enchantments).
Jhoira is a good suggestion, I actually thought about it not too long ago. Although the one time I faced a Jhoira deck, at the LGS, everyone ganged up when the guy started suspending eldrazi's and the like. So I think it doesn't even have to be mass LD to attract a bit too much attention...
Also, I have heard from the experiences of others that cards that don't work unless your opponent does something tend to make opponents feel better about them. For example, Backlash and Boros Fury-Shield are turning the tables on people for having big creatures, particularly great with Furnace of Rath effects. Also, Molten Psyche is superb with fork effects, that and cards like Sudden Impact, Vicious Shadows, etc, could be seen as just punishing players for hoarding cards.
Of course the flip side, they are prone to doing next to nothing against certain things, like Laboratory Maniac setups, or just gradual chip damage off of efficient spells and creatures. Although, I did see a Leyline of Anticipation enable a player to respond to a Mikaeus the Unhallowed-Triskelion combo with Bitter Ordeal and Temple Bell. It was not at all designed that way, but it was memorable because it was this exact thing of using another player's setup to achieve the win.
Hmm, that's really interesting! As I mentioned I recently came across Vicious Shadows, but that one I found because I was investigating ways of exploiting death triggers for my sac deck. But yeah, it does punish people for having ambitious card draw (having a "wheel" deck in the meta makes that even more tempting). Backlash and Boros Fury-Shield I came across a long time ago when I researched ways of dealing with the Gisela deck of the group, only to find that that resourceful angel got around those as well!!
Cards that my opponents make work... That sparked my interest! Any more suggestions along those lines?
Also, I have heard from the experiences of others that cards that don't work unless your opponent does something tend to make opponents feel better about them. For example, Backlash and Boros Fury-Shield are turning the tables on people for having big creatures, particularly great with Furnace of Rath effects. Also, Molten Psyche is superb with fork effects, that and cards like Sudden Impact, Vicious Shadows, etc, could be seen as just punishing players for hoarding cards.
Of course the flip side, they are prone to doing next to nothing against certain things, like Laboratory Maniac setups, or just gradual chip damage off of efficient spells and creatures. Although, I did see a Leyline of Anticipation enable a player to respond to a Mikaeus the Unhallowed-Triskelion combo with Bitter Ordeal and Temple Bell. It was not at all designed that way, but it was memorable because it was this exact thing of using another player's setup to achieve the win.
Hmm, that's really interesting! As I mentioned I recently came across Vicious Shadows, but that one I found because I was investigating ways of exploiting death triggers for my sac deck. But yeah, it does punish people for having ambitious card draw (having a "wheel" deck in the meta makes that even more tempting). Backlash and Boros Fury-Shield I came across a long time ago when I researched ways of dealing with the Gisela deck of the group, only to find that that resourceful angel got around those as well!!
Cards that my opponents make work... That sparked my interest! Any more suggestions along those lines?
Also, browse the web for "aikido EDH" and you'll get some results. That's the unofficial name I suppose for this concept, reflecting damage.
I'm curious about your remark on using those against Gisela, not sure what would make those spells not work. The ones like Backlash that care about power will be halved, but the Mirror Strike variants that prevent the damage would work. The damage from Gisela is doubled, then prevented to you for 2x, then halved from there back to 100%.
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I've been trying to put together an EDH deck with the ability to "change tempo" extremely fast. I've decided to exclude combos (I already have a Hermit Druid combo deck to pull out if needed), so I'm looking for win conditions of the more traditional sort. The deck I've been working on the most is an Oloro control build, but I'm curious about these kind of win conditions in other colors too.
Let me give you a perfect example of what I'm looking for:
Vedalken Orrery + Martial Coup (X>5, cast at the opponent before me's EOT) + Mirror Entity
Not considering any non-creature permanents that makes attacking difficult, this turns the tables extremely quickly, dealing very large amounts of damage in a very "fair" way. I like the idea of sitting back for a good while, playing control and building my resources while keeping the others in check (or at least away from me), only to suddenly reset the board and build a lightning fast, winning board state.
My Oloro deck has almost always relied on the above method of a sudden burst of tokens with a pump card to boost them. A couple more examples:
Storm Herd
Secure the Wastes
etc
With the help of
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Jazal Goldmane
among others
It doesn't necessarily have to be creature damage though. Recently, Vicious Shadows along with a token producer and a sac outlet caught my eye and prompted me to build a token ETB/sac list...
Any ideas?
Thank you! Hope you're having a great day!
/John
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsIn
Purphoros, God of the Forge
Impact Tremors
Out
Vicious Shadows
Zulaport Cutthroat
(Also considering Vela the Night-Clad)
All the while using the best sac outlets such as
Sadistic Hypnotist
Attrition
and the Altars
Winning like this, without attacking, also gets around the Propaganda effects that have started to pop up in my playgroup's meta...
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsThe good ol' Tooth and Nail into Craterhoof Behemoth and Avenger of Zendikar fits this criteria. Sudden, not a 'combo', can happen from an empty board.
But, you should probably nail down the nuances of the objective for not including "combos". And, let me know what you come up with while you're at it. Because in my mind, most players would consider those to be the actual criteria of a "combo", leading to an immediate win from an empty board.
I have had multiple times players tell me that using Pyromancer's Goggles with Increasing Vengeance is a "combo", because it killed them with something like Molten Psyche or Fiery Confluence. Far be it if you untap your Goggles with something like Voltaic Key, because from that setup even a Comet Storm is ridiculous.
Also, Debt to the Deathless is a combo by itself, especially when you have Cabal Coffers down. Or, so I have been told by multiple people.
And not to be forgotten, Primal Wellspring is a "combo" if the spell you cast with it kills someone. Or if you somehow kill someone with a Torment of Hailfire, that card is a combo. Or I guess in that instance, it is a "combo" with your mana producing lands.
In all sincerity, people will tell you this basically any time you build a deck capable of winning from an empty board state. Just a word of caution.
Yep, that's a ridiculous card indeed! A Roon deck in the meta has clearly showed that! Although, when I did a thorough search of "burst" token producers (as opposed to "incremental" producers, i.e. Avenger of Zendikar compared to Ant Queen), I found that the most effective ones - in my opinion - involved very few ETB triggers. For example, at the end the top of my list looked like this:
Secure the Wastes
Ophiomancer
Sengir Autocrat
Increasing Devotion
Conqueror's Pledge
Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
Saproling Burst
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Avenger of Zendikar
Martial Coup
Army of the Damned
Storm Herd
(Oona being the odd one, but a pet card of mine Also, Endrek requires setup, but I've been intrigued by him for so long that I wanted to try him out...)
We've also started to see more Torpor Orb effects in the meta, so fewer ETB effects are a good line.
Thanks for the reply, Jusstice!
Wow, I've never thought about it this way, but you're totally right. I'm surprised this hasn't occurred to me earlier. I guess what I'm doing is balancing on the line of what a combo technically is and what things could "feel" like a combo. Maybe the difference between "combo" and "really strong synergy". Precisely as you're saying, what a combo does is that it wins out of nowhere and in an instant, with very little time or possibility for the opponents to interact with it and stop it. I guess what I've been trying to do is widen that instant to a slightly longer moment of possible interaction for my opponents, but yeah - I'm certainly pushing the line here...
The idea was born out of a multitude of classic, drawn out EDH games, where sweepers kept resetting the board and the one coming out of the gates the fastest would gain an enormous advantage (at least for the next period of the game, until the next sweeper reset...) and maybe even get to take out a player or two. So I set out to build a deck that would be able to reset the board often, and then be the absolute fastest one on the board after that. The example with Martial Coup in my first post embodies this perfectly. But yes, I guess at the very core this comes down to the old "win or have fun" tension; Do I want to come out of the gates so fast that I leave everyone with almost the same feeling as after a combo defeat, or do I slow down my deck enough to evade that feeling, giving up a lot of wins in the process... Guess I'll have to build a "slow win" deck to put in the bag as well, luckily one can't have too many EDH decks right?
It's in Tasigur, so I have access to Life from the Loam to recur it if for some reason they stop the beatdown, Shizo, Death's Storehouse to give the token Fear, Realms Uncharted, Intuition, Tolaria West, and Crop Rotation so I can get it set up whenever I'm ready to end player's lives.
Most of the time, all the other pieces work to find other stuff and set up a controlling board state but serve for this as well. It's a little something to speed things up compared to the rest of the win cons which are rather grindy and work mainly against one person at a time since people wanted things less time-consuming.
As an aside, Realms Uncharted is extremely good in this format but I don't see others run it in my group.
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Thromok the Insatiable, pretty sure I have seen him hit for 1000.
Or more conventional, Xenagos, god of revels or Maelstrom wanderer. I mean they are boring but they get the job done... quickly.
The only deck I have that just wins out of nowhere is Zirilan of the claw but the whole deck is focused on enabling him so there isn't a lot of room for a theme.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Though my experience there is that I only ever manage to take out one person, and then I'm wide open. Or else I take out everyone at once, myself included. People rarely complain about monored though, unless your general is something abusive like Heartless Hidetsugu.
Anything that comes out EoT on the prior turn (or on the same turn, as with Tooth and Nail) and then simply wins is likely to be considered a combo. If opponents have at least a sorcery-speed opportunity to react, even if it's a very difficult board state to react to (e.g. giant indestructible death army underneath Dense Foliage) then they usually agree that it's fair. If the only way to stop you is for them to have either a counterspell or instant-speed removal, especially if it needs to be specialized instant-speed removal like Krosan Grip, then it feels "cheap". This also varies on the general strength of answers that people run within your meta. I find that if everyone is playing hard control then nobody complains about combos too much.
I will say though, haste creatures are often an exception to this rule as long as the act of the creature attacking doesn't generate an infinite of some sort (i.e. not Jeleva, Kaalia, or Narset) and they don't let you kill all of the other players from full life, like Craterhoof+Avenger does. In fact, killing someone who is already at less than full life does tend to feel justified in general. You could try playing a few 'slow-death' cards like Spiteful Visions, Shrieking Affliction, Bloodchief Ascension, etc. and then win with a sudden large-but-not-40 hit to everyone, from Exsanguinate or something.
Another alternative is to use something that everyone sees coming, as a sort of challenge for them to try to bust past your wall of counterspells and control. Luminarch Ascension is a good example here, as are any number of noncreature permanents that 'grow' in some way (Assemble the Legion, Door of Destinies, Oracle's Vault, and others).
- Rabid Wombat
Good note, I tend to forget about the ol' Marit! With the recursion you mentioned, it really becomes a tough threat.
Exactly darrenhabib, I meant infinite, "win-on-the-spot" combos. I realize now that I should have been more clear in my first post. In my head, and when I talk about this with friends, we always say just "combo" when we're actually talking about infinite lethal combos. Although, my vagueness has sparked an interesting discussion that I'm glad came up!
Thank you Narvuntien, haste is a good mention. My shenanigans with Vedalken Orrery/Leyline of Anticipation/Alchemist's Refuge has been my "version of haste" for so long that I've never thoroughly investigated the actual haste enablers in the format! Although my first EDH deck ever was a pre-con Maelstrom Wanderer deck, so I've played a lot with him and different lists with him. When I think about it, traditional haste seem a tiny tiny bit more "fair" compared to the "prior turn EOT plays" I've mentioned in the thread, but in reality it's pretty much the same I guess. But yeah, it's a pretty neat feeling; sitting with an active haste enabler and making all your opponents uneasy about what's going to happen on each of your turns!
Monored control sounds really interesting! I've always liked the underdog feeling of monored in EDH. For long now, I've had a proxy version of Gaka's Norin deck - always a blast!
Yes, I'm starting to see that now. Widening the time window of response across the prior turn's EOT up until my attack phase still doesn't enable anything other than instant speed answers - pretty much the same case as with infinite combos. Maybe it's time to tune down the tempo a bit, and go for what you described - a powerful, hard-to-answer board state, but one that doesn't win until everyone has had at least one shot at a sorcery speed answer.
Exactly, as I wrote above, haste does "feel" more fair in some strange way, even if it results in a sudden win that no one had the ability to foresee. Maybe it's because the other players know that they should play a bit more defensively and have answers/blockers ready, especially in the case where a forerunner haste enabler hits the table first, signaling that the next turn can be potentially very dangerous if your shields aren't up.
Hmm, I have to start thinking about win cons that feel fair, more towards the traditional type, but at the same time aren't too slow... I don't have anything against grinding people down with big creatures, but I feel that the gap up to the really fast wins is a bit too big. If I'm to control the table for a while and when the timing is right, land my big beaters and start eating life totals, I would want the attack force to be able to work on all my opponents at once and in a fair pace, not dealing 5-15 damage to one player each combat phase. I'm thinking a bit along the Blade of Selves lines... It will be tricky to find the right pace of killing the whole table!
Wow, I really like your thinking with Luminarch Ascension type cards! (That one has slipped under my radar for far too long, a little embarrassing since I've been building Oloro lists so often and so frequently!) It's a bit like, "This card is not over-powered or unfair by itself, but if you're not ready for it and can't find an answer in the following turns, then it grows out of control"! I like that, and that you kind of push over the burden onto your opponents, sort of avoiding the "full blame for the win" like you would suffer from an infinite lethal combo win. Sure, one could argue that an infinite combo win also could be blamed upon the opponents for not being prepared and playing decks with enough/right answers, but this again gives them more time and more possibilities.
Okey, so maybe a new question then! What more cards do we have that by themselves grow incrementally stronger the more turns they're left unanswered?
For example a pet combo of mine is Djinn Illuminatis+Pact of the Titan+ haste. I dig this combo but it is INCREDIBLY easy to break up. Its at least three cards. At bare minimum its 8 mana(okay I guess 7 if Anger is your haste enabler). And its vulnerable, not only to the usual creature removal and counterspells but to whatever removes your haste enabler AND further still it outright causes the user to lose if someone Fogs.
Another way is to build oops I win synergies into your deck. Take my Ramos +1+/1 counters deck. One of my favorite oops I win cards in the deck is Enduring Scalelord. The only thing I havr built into the deck for that card is Altered Ego and Progenitor Mimic however the Scalelord also proved the key component in an oops I win moment a month or so ago. Despite having only 6 lands late into the gamr I had managed to build a rather thretening boardstate thanks to Hardened Scales and Gyre Sage. So the Meren player used Living Death but didn't realize that in my graveyard was Scalelord, Sage of Hours, and Ghave, Guru of Spores. On my next turn I proceeded to, more or less accidentally, take infinite turns and win the game. Including things that are good on their own but happen to go off with other things but is not something you're actually aiming for in the course of the game can help make these sort of combos less consistent and thus more fair.
Far too many to count, but most of them are pretty slow about it by commander standards (e.g. Scute Mob, Dragonmaster Outcast, Falkenrath Marauders, Lightning Reaver, Predator Ooze, etc. etc.) I like some of these, especially Lightning Reaver, but you don't want more than one or two of these creatures or you'll get wrath'd out alongside everyone else. I find noncreature effects to be more consistent since they're harder to kill.
Shrine of Burning Rage and Shrine of Loyal Legions are both decent, depending on the competitiveness of your meta. Planeswalkers almost all fall into the "grows out of control" category. Living End, Hypergenesis, or All Hallow's Eve can be pretty fun, even if you're probably better off just flat out playing Living Death.
Jhoira of the Ghitu can be fun as long as you don't play a bunch of destroy-everything red spells like Obliterate and Jokulhaups. She draws a lot of hate though, mostly because people assume you'll be playing those spells.
- Rabid Wombat
A favorite of mine that I have seen once or twice is False Cure. And, Parallectric Feedback is one that I have been wanting to see end a game since Torment of Hailfire started seeing play alongside Exsanguinate.
Of course the flip side, they are prone to doing next to nothing against certain things, like Laboratory Maniac setups, or just gradual chip damage off of efficient spells and creatures. Although, I did see a Leyline of Anticipation enable a player to respond to a Mikaeus the Unhallowed-Triskelion combo with Bitter Ordeal and Temple Bell. It was not at all designed that way, but it was memorable because it was this exact thing of using another player's setup to achieve the win.
Thanks for the cool suggestions (that pact combo was spicy!). True, infinite combos can be more or less fair, depending on their fragility and consistency. Although right now, I'm liking the challenge of avoiding them completely in this deck and going full on in my Hermit deck.
Yeah, we've encountered some "Oops this is a combo" moments in our meta. Back when we were more restrictive with them, we just decided on some house rules so the cards that interacted still could be kept in the deck because they were good/fun, but for example we used to limit the number of allowed iterations to, like, three. Or whatever felt balanced at the time. Now we seem to be a bit more liberal, but if I decide on cards that could go infinite in this list, I will before a game with this deck announce that if they come up together, I will limit the iterations to what the feels like a balanced number.
That value chain!!! Although I've tried mono-G before, and I always miss certain elements from other colors...
Yeah, I felt as I wrote the question that depending on how you interpret it, the number of cards that fit that bill could be enormous! But I kind of hoped that people would understand that and only suggest their top contenders. Because in a way, any growing board state of creatures buffing each other or getting buffed by for example your mentioned Door of Destinies, is something that needs to be answered quickly. And that is kind of the whole environment of EDH (casual, anyway); keeping each other in check, sweeping and resetting, re-building... (Kind of back to where this thread started, with sweeping and re-building the fastest!)
But I really felt on to something when you mentioned Luminarch Ascension. It has speed, more than slowly building a threatening creature board state or trying to get Lightning Reaver or the shrines up to speed. Because when it gets dangerous, it gets real dangerous and real fast. And it doesn't need help from other cards at all, just some form of defense, so you can just devote more slots to defense, counterspells and needed answers for others shenanigans.
Yes, I thought that someone would mention planeswalkers. They fit the bill quite perfectly. Trouble is, I have kind of already tried the maxed out version of that... I actually built this list, minus the five most expensive cards. A lot of fun! Feels really cool to play a deck that attacks from such a unique angle. Only one problem. Every time I pulled that deck out, my opponents really came together in a beautiful way to keep every walker off the table and every defense piece eliminated ASAP. If I could stick Humility and recur it once or twice, I could manage. But I eventually lost the feeling for the deck, since it either shut down everyone else so hard or got shut down itself very abruptly. Maybe I played it sub-optimally, or misused politics. But anyway, I think I should review the planeswalkers again and see which ones fit the "Luminarch" bill the best.
Though I'm a bit weary of threats that can be handled by my opponents' creatures, in the same way I agree with you on leaning towards non creature permanents that cannot be removed as easily as creatures. That's another reason I like the Luminarch - of the non creature permanent types available I've been looking at enchantments more and more the last few weeks, mostly because they are a tiny bit harder to remove in general (white and green can handle both artifacts and enchantments, red can handle artifacts, but grixis colors all have a difficult time with enchantments).
Jhoira is a good suggestion, I actually thought about it not too long ago. Although the one time I faced a Jhoira deck, at the LGS, everyone ganged up when the guy started suspending eldrazi's and the like. So I think it doesn't even have to be mass LD to attract a bit too much attention...
Hmm, that's really interesting! As I mentioned I recently came across Vicious Shadows, but that one I found because I was investigating ways of exploiting death triggers for my sac deck. But yeah, it does punish people for having ambitious card draw (having a "wheel" deck in the meta makes that even more tempting). Backlash and Boros Fury-Shield I came across a long time ago when I researched ways of dealing with the Gisela deck of the group, only to find that that resourceful angel got around those as well!!
Cards that my opponents make work... That sparked my interest! Any more suggestions along those lines?
I would read through the retired primer for Tariel, Reckoner of Souls from Rachmiel - http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/490546-tariel-youll-thank-me-for-this
Also, browse the web for "aikido EDH" and you'll get some results. That's the unofficial name I suppose for this concept, reflecting damage.
I'm curious about your remark on using those against Gisela, not sure what would make those spells not work. The ones like Backlash that care about power will be halved, but the Mirror Strike variants that prevent the damage would work. The damage from Gisela is doubled, then prevented to you for 2x, then halved from there back to 100%.