Ok, a caveat - not talking about hyper-competitive or 1v1 EDH here. More like "75%" multiplayer. With that said, isn't Secrets of the Golden City a pretty good option for monoblue or base-blue EDH decks?
Draw 3 for 3 mana, even at sorcery speed, is nearly unheard of. Of course you have to do work for this, but you do for treasure cruise too. I still think TC is better, but you may want to run both. Even if you have to burn it in the early game to hit a land drop or dig for an answer, divination for 1UU isn't horrible (again, assuming your deck is heavy enough in blue that the 1UU cost isn't a challenge).
I still like Thirst for Knowledge in heavy artifact decks or decks that may like to get cards in the graveyard, and Compulsive Research for the same reason, things like impulse, dig through time, and other instant speed options are still great, but for decks looking for more card draw, I'm definitely going to try out secrets of the golden city. Am I crazy?
I don't think it's a crazy idea to try it. There's a couple caveats on that, though. One is that Ascend is slightly harder to turn on early in blue decks, because so much of their interaction wants to be non-permanent. You'll still likely get there, but it might be in the later stages of the game. The other issue I can see is the double blue cost making it much less attractive for 3 color decks.
Concentrate exists, and is generally a better card than Divination even though it's a mana more. So for this to be great, it has to stop being a Divination while you're still in the part of the game where you care a lot about the difference between three and four mana. Certainly if you're playing some kind of blue/green token deck that can get city's blessing on turn five it's great, while in a control deck that barely plays permanents other than lands and mana rocks I'd give it a pass. Most decks are somewhere in between, I guess, so it's probably not bad but not incredibly impressive either.
The way city's blessing works also means it gets better in an MLD meta, as long as you have other ascend cards in your deck.
You're not crazy, I agree with you. It should definitely be considered in most mono-U or heavy U decks, I believe. You will likely hit Ascend at some point, and when you do, draw 3 for 3 is definitely good. Even if you don't, a slightly heavy U divination is still good.
I was considering Secrets of the Golden City for my Taigam, Ojutai Master Azorius tokens deck. That deck, like most token decks, gets to 10 permanents as a natural part of the deck's strategy and TOM can give it rebound potentially turning it into a draw 6 for 1UU. Same might be said for any copy spell effects like Twincast or Swarm Intelligence. Seems decent to me, but like others have said, it does take just a bit of work as conditional draw for that third card, while other options just require the mana to cast.
Not too bad in a rather casual Talrand, Sky Summoner deck that might not go all out on instant speed things.
I mean, you need 4 mana for the commander. Make it 4 lands/rocks plus your commander and the token you get for casting it. That's already 6 permanents total. Say you dropped Talrand , played 1-2 spells, rocks and lands the turn(s) afterwards, you'll easily be able to get the City's Blessing one or two turns after dropping your commander.
Most pseudo-storm builds will propably pass on it, but it is totally viable.
I agree. It’s a solid card at this mana cost, but draw 3 is not unparalleled. There is Painful Truths in Black, which is capable of drawing 3 for 3 in a deck of three plus colors. Also, Compulsive Research is nearly as strong, considering max hand-size restrictions early game.
The competing interest with early draw versus late draw in EDH is exactly that issue – max hand size. If your deck is extremely consistent with a Turn 2 play (a bit rare, but some decks are) then a draw 2 for 3 fills you back up to 7. Otherwise you are overdrawing. And of course, the moment you overdraw is the moment you wish you’d had Ponder, or Faithless Looting instead of what you cast for 3 mana. Not to mention, those decks that are extremely consistent in making a Turn 2 play in the first place usually want to make a Turn 3 play (and Turn 4, so on). Thereafter, they need a big refill, and there are options like Recurring Insight, Greater Good, Prime Speaker Zegana, Future Sight, C-Sphinx, so on and so on.
For those reasons, there is a huge natural gulf between draw at 1 mana and draw at 5+ mana, with a few notable exceptions like Night’s Whisper and Frantic Search. This card isn’t going to make that many waves as an early Divination, or a one mana savings on a very late Concentrate.
The main perk, in my mind, is the actual Ascend trigger for your other cards. If you are running enough of them, then this is an option to have fewer regrets when you cast the ongoing ones early. I think most EDH decks though will want to have a couple Ascend cards at most, which would entail nearly always waiting until you have the permanent count.
If I were to make a "top 20 card draw spells of all time in blue", this would make the list, but it probably misses the top 10. And that is assuming I consider "card draw" to be cards that can ACTUALLY put you up a card or more, thus leaving off Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Serum Visions, Impulse, and Frantic Search and left off incremental draw engines that don't necessarily put you up a card immediately like Rhystic Study, Bident of Thassa, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
- Blue Sun's Zenith kills people with arbitrarily large mana and gives you a potent end-game.
- Thirst for Knowledge is an instant speed draw three and asks precious little.
- Compulsive Research is typically better than this, especially if you can exploit lands in the 'yard.
- Fact or Fiction is incredible even if you have no way to exploit your graveyard and never get to collude with the table and make it a Draw 5.
- Mystic Confluence is a Jace's Ingenuity if you need it, but is super flexible and amazing.
- Mulldrifter is at worst Divination, but a relevant, blinkable and recurrable body make it a truly special card.
- Chart a Course requires an aggressive list, but is very good if you can reliably be attacking.
- Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise require a specific kind of deck as well, but are extremely potent if you can make them work for you in a dredge-heavy list.
- Careful Consideration doesn't get nearly enough respect as a potential draw 4.
- Stroke of Genius and Pull from Tomorrow are worse than BSZ but still very very good at reloading a hand or sometimes killing an opponent.
- Windfall also needs a specialized deck or strategy, but is insanely strong when it works.
There's no way this is a better card overall than Concentrate. In the early game it's worse because the difference between two cards and three is massive. In the late game it's better, but not that much better, because the difference between three mana and four is not that massive when you have nine or ten available. For certain decks that hit ten ten permanents much earlier than they hit ten mana, it's better in the midgame, and for those decks it's probably a better card than Concentrate. But I don't think those decks are the majority, especially in blue.
Most of the other cards you've listed are instants, and at that point it's not really a fair comparison. A three-mana sorcery is not directly comparable to a four-mana instant; they shine in different circumstances and different decks.
Basically I think this card is fine but it is being really overrated outside of token decks. Paying an extra mana is a smaller hoop to jump through than getting to city's blessing, most of the time.
Most of the other cards you've listed are instants, and at that point it's not really a fair comparison. A three-mana sorcery is not directly comparable to a four-mana instant; they shine in different circumstances and different decks.
This is quite important - especially in mono-U control decks. The more mana you tap on your own turn, the less mana you're able to keep open for control-ish spells.
I think the comparison to Painful Truths made above is apt, and exactly why I'm somewhat high on this card. I can see this being as good in some decks.
Being a sorcery, and caring about your board presence, make Secrets more suited for a proactive blue deck. I'm thinking Ezuri, Claw of Progress would like it and could stomach the double-U, but my build of that deck prefers to get its card draw from its creatures anyway and has a ton of options for that.
I'm going to try Secrets in my Sakashima the Imposter build, which began as very reactive and controlling but I want to move it in a more proactive, building out a board while copying and stealing (rather than countering) direction. It may be weaker but more fun overall.
I've never liked Concentrate for some reason, even though I recognize it's a fine enough card. I feel like getting this to ascend will feel a lot better than just casting the concentrate, although the extra mana saved may not make a difference. (That said, sometimes it will, and that will mean a LOT.)
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Draw 3 for 3 mana, even at sorcery speed, is nearly unheard of. Of course you have to do work for this, but you do for treasure cruise too. I still think TC is better, but you may want to run both. Even if you have to burn it in the early game to hit a land drop or dig for an answer, divination for 1UU isn't horrible (again, assuming your deck is heavy enough in blue that the 1UU cost isn't a challenge).
I still like Thirst for Knowledge in heavy artifact decks or decks that may like to get cards in the graveyard, and Compulsive Research for the same reason, things like impulse, dig through time, and other instant speed options are still great, but for decks looking for more card draw, I'm definitely going to try out secrets of the golden city. Am I crazy?
The way city's blessing works also means it gets better in an MLD meta, as long as you have other ascend cards in your deck.
Current EDH
UThassa, God of the Sea devotion control
WRGTana, the Bloodsower & Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa partners weenie tokens
UUnesh, Criosphinx Sovereign Sphinx tribal
WUTaigam, Ojutai Master tokens on the rebound spellslinger
GRhonas the Indomitable green creature beats
UGRashmi, Eternities Crafter ETB tribal
Retired EDH
WURGKynaios and Tiro of Meletis group hug
URThe Locust God draw swarm
UTalrand, Sky Summoner funsies blue spells
WBObzedat, Ghost Council life gain/drain
I mean, you need 4 mana for the commander. Make it 4 lands/rocks plus your commander and the token you get for casting it. That's already 6 permanents total. Say you dropped Talrand , played 1-2 spells, rocks and lands the turn(s) afterwards, you'll easily be able to get the City's Blessing one or two turns after dropping your commander.
Most pseudo-storm builds will propably pass on it, but it is totally viable.
The competing interest with early draw versus late draw in EDH is exactly that issue – max hand size. If your deck is extremely consistent with a Turn 2 play (a bit rare, but some decks are) then a draw 2 for 3 fills you back up to 7. Otherwise you are overdrawing. And of course, the moment you overdraw is the moment you wish you’d had Ponder, or Faithless Looting instead of what you cast for 3 mana. Not to mention, those decks that are extremely consistent in making a Turn 2 play in the first place usually want to make a Turn 3 play (and Turn 4, so on). Thereafter, they need a big refill, and there are options like Recurring Insight, Greater Good, Prime Speaker Zegana, Future Sight, C-Sphinx, so on and so on.
For those reasons, there is a huge natural gulf between draw at 1 mana and draw at 5+ mana, with a few notable exceptions like Night’s Whisper and Frantic Search. This card isn’t going to make that many waves as an early Divination, or a one mana savings on a very late Concentrate.
The main perk, in my mind, is the actual Ascend trigger for your other cards. If you are running enough of them, then this is an option to have fewer regrets when you cast the ongoing ones early. I think most EDH decks though will want to have a couple Ascend cards at most, which would entail nearly always waiting until you have the permanent count.
- Blue Sun's Zenith kills people with arbitrarily large mana and gives you a potent end-game.
- Thirst for Knowledge is an instant speed draw three and asks precious little.
- Compulsive Research is typically better than this, especially if you can exploit lands in the 'yard.
- Fact or Fiction is incredible even if you have no way to exploit your graveyard and never get to collude with the table and make it a Draw 5.
- Mystic Confluence is a Jace's Ingenuity if you need it, but is super flexible and amazing.
- Mulldrifter is at worst Divination, but a relevant, blinkable and recurrable body make it a truly special card.
- Chart a Course requires an aggressive list, but is very good if you can reliably be attacking.
- Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise require a specific kind of deck as well, but are extremely potent if you can make them work for you in a dredge-heavy list.
- Careful Consideration doesn't get nearly enough respect as a potential draw 4.
- Stroke of Genius and Pull from Tomorrow are worse than BSZ but still very very good at reloading a hand or sometimes killing an opponent.
- Windfall also needs a specialized deck or strategy, but is insanely strong when it works.
I'd consider almost all of these over Secrets of the Golden City for most blue lists. Secrets of the Golden City probably outstrips Hieroglyphic Illumination, Think Twice, Glimmer of Genius, Distant Melody, and Concentrate unless your deck specifically interacts with those cards (Tribal, Energy, Cycling, etc).
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Most of the other cards you've listed are instants, and at that point it's not really a fair comparison. A three-mana sorcery is not directly comparable to a four-mana instant; they shine in different circumstances and different decks.
Basically I think this card is fine but it is being really overrated outside of token decks. Paying an extra mana is a smaller hoop to jump through than getting to city's blessing, most of the time.
When i researched draw spells for my Talrand, Sky Summoner deck i chose to run instants that net me at least 2 cards without discard requirements at a max of 4. I ended up with a package of Comparative Analysis (especially great with Surge), Glimmer of Genius, Hieroglyphic Illumination, Inspiration and Weave Fate. While none of these are superbly strong they suit both my playstyle and tactics for said deck.
I think the comparison to Painful Truths made above is apt, and exactly why I'm somewhat high on this card. I can see this being as good in some decks.
Being a sorcery, and caring about your board presence, make Secrets more suited for a proactive blue deck. I'm thinking Ezuri, Claw of Progress would like it and could stomach the double-U, but my build of that deck prefers to get its card draw from its creatures anyway and has a ton of options for that.
I'm going to try Secrets in my Sakashima the Imposter build, which began as very reactive and controlling but I want to move it in a more proactive, building out a board while copying and stealing (rather than countering) direction. It may be weaker but more fun overall.
I've never liked Concentrate for some reason, even though I recognize it's a fine enough card. I feel like getting this to ascend will feel a lot better than just casting the concentrate, although the extra mana saved may not make a difference. (That said, sometimes it will, and that will mean a LOT.)