If the secret of Commander is in not breaking it then why did Sheldon Menery create it so that players could? It's not as If he envisioned that the format itself would ensure a sustainable future for Magic without a successful Standard. Modern and Legacy both act as a safety net for Magic in case Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro screws up. Commander doesn't have the same benefit because doing so would end up creating collusion If they decide to officially sanction it like other formats.
He created it breakable because there's no feasible way to make it un-breakable without ruining it. The number of combos and tutors are huge. You'd either need a huge banlist or a rotation, both of which are pretty un-fun and probably something will still sneak through. There's always a top deck. Tell me how you'd change the format so that it couldn't be broken, and odds are good that it would step on a lot of players' toes who are trying to play fair, and probably still be broken. Rather than remove the ability to break it, he removed the motivation by making it unsanctioned.
I have honestly no idea what you're saying about collusion but it sounds wrong.
The reason why I mentioned collusion was because Multiplayer Commander games are poor for competitive play since they'd be forced to specifically sanction it to 1 vs. 1 Duel Commander only. It's a very small demographic to build around as most Commander players prefer Multiplayer 4+ player pods. Another problem is that competitive EDH/Commander decks are easily expensive as Standard, Modern, and Legacy with the vast array of Reserved List staples in the format. Eventually the barrier of entry will be too much for most EDH/Commander players to break into.
To make EDH/Commander a flagship competitive format like Standard, Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro would need to vastly expand the banned list or else rule out old sets altogether to divide EDH/Commander into Type I and Type II like they did back in the 90's. It's something that Sheldon Menery and the EDH Rules Committee doesn't want let alone everyone else who continues to support the format despite the company continuing to shoot themselves in the foot instead of looking out for players and local game stores.
I don't feel Comander is killing magic. It think it's just a different game using the same gaming elements.
Different game using the same gaming elements in the sense that it probably would've been better off as it's own Trading Card Game/Collectible Card Game or Living Card Game instead of being attached to Magic? Unfortunately it isn't possible because it would take years in order for a new Trading Card Game/Collectible Card Game or Living Card Game in this day in age to accumulate an amount of set releases to maintain a big enough card pool that rivals that of Magic: the Gathering. Then there's the question as to whether If it's good enough that it will take off based on source material.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Second regarding competitive play itself, Magic has been declining since 2014, precisely to coincide with the release of Hearthstone. In this player’s honest opinion, that game is just all-around more suited to competitive play. Magic is a game where you will literally lose 20% or so of your games to mana screw/flood issues in Modern and Legacy, and up to 35% in some Standard formats where there are cards being played of 4 mana and higher. The mechanic where you have to randomly draw your mana sources from your deck simply doesn’t match a Swiss-style tournament structure where you are out of the running after a couple of losses. In Hearthstone, people still complain that the random element decides too many games, and that is a competitive structure where you can ladder as many games as you need to ride out any unlucky streaks. Relative to other games, Magic is very poorly rewarding of skill.
I totally agree with you that Hearthstone may be killing magic's competative constructed play but I do not agree that it is because Hearthstone is somehow a higher skill based game. Magic as far more complex given instants and the amount of player interaction when it is not your turn and the ability to respond to responses. Hearthstone designed its game to be fast and in doing that they cut opponent interaction entirely when it is not their turn. I am not saying that the decision to go this direction is wrong by any means but ultimately it creates a simpler game that if you want to look into the high skill decks of both games, magic has a lot higher skill cap due to the increased interactions.
Also, some decks (especially combo decks in HS) have almost no way in which to interact with them other than what.... Dirty Rat and Ice Block? I have played / watched hearthstone essentially since beta (I was in the closed beta). Don't get me wrong, Hearthstone is a great game but it is by no means anywhere near the skill capability game that magic is. There really is a skill cap to the game and that is based on a lot of design elements that go towards being faster and more approachable.
Beyond this, there is also a very big problem that hearthstone games are just best of 1 with no sideboards. That is another issue entirely but I also do not think that it lends to being a higher skill based game with those intentions but it does make the game faster and more approachable for new players.
Just look at the history of the DCI floor rules. Of the section of players part of the “Hall of Fame”, nearly all of them established their reputations at a time where tournament judges were more concerned with rules arbitration, and simply were not on the lookout for the type of cheating endemic to card games. And since then, the rewards on the Grand Prix to certain of these “pros” are that they receive three (3!!) byes in any Grand Prix. That keeps the illusion of competitiveness alive when a name that you recognize is 8 times as likely to show up in the finals than a newcomer, just on numbers. It’s possible for anyone to grind enough events to get into this bracket, but enough past success will give you the same benefits automatically. There are a few other organizers, but the Wizards events themselves are simply not designed to have a level playing field.
Yea, the free bys are total bull*****. I don't know what to say about this. I went to an event a few years back just intending to sort of casually play some magic on the side but one of the guys I went with had the free bys. I think he took like 56th place which is kind of huge still for a GP.
Regarding card pricing, EDH has been the major force behind keeping good cards valuable. I started collecting in earnest at around Ravnica and Kamigawa blocks, and during that time before Modern and EDH were established, the one single rule behind a card’s price was whether it was played in Standard. Take a card like Loxodon Hierarch. Game-changing card it’s not, but is it played in Standard? Yes? Instant $15 card. Doubling Season? Not played, crap, junk bin rare. Dark Confidant, seems interesting but not played in Standard. Junk. Chord of Calling. Cloudstone Curio, Privileged Position? Who cares what the cards actually do, are they played in Standard? Even Umezawa’s Jitte went from a $25 card to the sub $10 range overnight after the Standard rotation, and now it’s up again with no perceivable demand other than casual and EDH.
Lets not throw in this new thing which is people investing in magic. I own a few expensive reserve list cards and I am totally baffled by the recent years where it seems like everything has doubled in price for no reason. I am not fond of what is happening to prices the last few years. Even just regular cards that people run have trippled or more for those old $10-$15 staples are now $50+
The reason why I mentioned collusion was because Multiplayer Commander games are poor for competitive play since they'd be forced to specifically sanction it to 1 vs. 1 Duel Commander only. It's a very small demographic to build around as most Commander players prefer Multiplayer 4+ player pods. Another problem is that competitive EDH/Commander decks are easily expensive as Standard, Modern, and Legacy with the vast array of Reserved List staples in the format.
To make EDH/Commander a flagship competitive format like Standard, Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro would need to vastly expand the banned list or else rule out old sets altogether to divide EDH/Commander into Type I and Type II like they did back in the 90's. It's something that Sheldon Menery and the EDH Rules Committee doesn't want let alone everyone else who continues to support the format despite the company continuing to shoot themselves in the foot instead of looking out for players and local game stores.
Ah, I misunderstood. I thought you meant collusion between wotc and the RC.
I do think collusion is a smaller problem than people think it is. If it's a 4 person pod and 2 people conspire to win and then coin flip (or whatever) the other 2 people can theoretically do the same. But also betrayal is always going to be the smart play for the stronger of the colluding players once it's 1v1, since it's better than a coin flip. And if you're planning in advance to 1v1 once it's down to 1v1...then the person who's behind obviously has motivation to screw with the person ahead (whether blatantly or secretly) before it becomes 1v1, and potentially even to kill them in order to have an easier 1v1 with the other person. Sure, if you split prizes then I guess it's safe to assume your partner won't backstab, but if you think you're the stronger player then you have no reason to take 1/2 loot for 2x odds.
I'm not saying there aren't games where 2 people collude and kill the other players, but I'm saying that at least one of those players is not playing optimally when they do so. My winrate is substantially higher than 50%, and that's from playing smart politics, not blatant collusion.
Also, sidebar, I know some tourneys do stupid things like "top 2 advance"...which is a fault with that tournament structure and not with the game. Prizes/advancement for the winner, everyone else gets nothing. That's the only way to keep it fair. Otherwise you're begging for collusion, within the game if not outside of it. Add in random podding and players who know how to play intelligently and the problem goes away.
None of this is to say that I think commander tourneys are a good idea, just that collusion is overblown imo.
Anyway my main point was that EDH being a breakable format isn't fixable. And imo it's not really a problem, I run into very few top-tier decks. Like almost zero. And if they're one deck in a pod, they're usually handle-able anyway.
Take a card like Loxodon Hierarch. Game-changing card it’s not, but is it played in Standard? Yes? Instant $15 card. Doubling Season? Not played, crap, junk bin rare. Dark Confidant, seems interesting but not played in Standard. Junk. Chord of Calling. Cloudstone Curio, Privileged Position? Who cares what the cards actually do, are they played in Standard? Even Umezawa’s Jitte went from a $25 card to the sub $10 range overnight after the Standard rotation, and now it’s up again with no perceivable demand other than casual and EDH.
I don' want to derail your point, but your eamples are poorly chosen.
I got into magic right before Ravnica released. Hierarch was never over $12. Zoo is why it had any value, and it was dropping shortly after Coldsnap.
Dark Confidant held a $10-$12 prce tag from relase all the way until 2009 or so, where it went up. Not because of Modern. Vintage and Legacy palyers knew it was great. It just took the 2008 and 2011 price spikes of all cards to make it's price go to $20+ all the way up to the $75 or so it hit because of a lack of reprints.
Doubling Season was $20 on release and never dipped. That card has been a Timmy card since before planeswalkers were ever a thing. The Lorwyn planeswalkers didn't have super scary ultimate effects, but once future planeswalkers did, the value of doubling season continued to grow.
I don't know where you ever found Umezawa’s Jitte for under $20. Even after standard rotation and Time Spiral, it was useful in extended and legacy lists. Even Vintage fish decks ran it in the side for the mirror.
Maybe you had an LGS which did not care about the online secondary card market price, but where I am from in Northern California, card prices were a part of my life for several years. I would speculate cards for a good 3 or 4 years. I remember grabbing up goyfs at the Time Spial pre-release and release events for $2-$5 and was worried I would lose my shirt on them... then thought i struck gold and flipped them at about $50 right before standard rotation. I made a huge profit and got out WAY too early. Such is life.
Your overall point is alright, though extended was replaced by Modern, but the same ideas remained: Only eternally playable card have any value... and most eternally playable cards are either cheap to cast or cheat mana costs some how.
Commander has done a lot for allowing otherwise worthless cards to get a spotlight and for old school classics to retain and increase in value.
Honestly, as far as the market is concerned, players have discovered the value and reprint rate of cards. For example, Modern Masters sets focus on specific sets witha few throw in cards to reprint from. If your card wasn't reprinted, then it likely won't be for years. Mikaeus, the Unhallowed sat at $5 doing nothing until a while after Commander 2014 came out and the demand for mono black zombie decks rose thanks to the mono colored decks they released for commander. Then when MM2 came out and did NOT reprint him, everybody knew that he is unlikely to get a reprint for 5+ years. Maybe in a bigger eternal set at best. I am glad I got mine at $5. That is not the only card that has happened to. it is as important to see what is NOT reprinted as it is to see what is.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
Second regarding competitive play itself, Magic has been declining since 2014, precisely to coincide with the release of Hearthstone. In this player’s honest opinion, that game is just all-around more suited to competitive play. Magic is a game where you will literally lose 20% or so of your games to mana screw/flood issues in Modern and Legacy, and up to 35% in some Standard formats where there are cards being played of 4 mana and higher. The mechanic where you have to randomly draw your mana sources from your deck simply doesn’t match a Swiss-style tournament structure where you are out of the running after a couple of losses. In Hearthstone, people still complain that the random element decides too many games, and that is a competitive structure where you can ladder as many games as you need to ride out any unlucky streaks. Relative to other games, Magic is very poorly rewarding of skill.
I totally agree with you that Hearthstone may be killing magic's competative constructed play but I do not agree that it is because Hearthstone is somehow a higher skill based game. Magic as far more complex given instants and the amount of player interaction when it is not your turn and the ability to respond to responses. Hearthstone designed its game to be fast and in doing that they cut opponent interaction entirely when it is not their turn. I am not saying that the decision to go this direction is wrong by any means but ultimately it creates a simpler game that if you want to look into the high skill decks of both games, magic has a lot higher skill cap due to the increased interactions.
Also, some decks (especially combo decks in HS) have almost no way in which to interact with them other than what.... Dirty Rat and Ice Block? I have played / watched hearthstone essentially since beta (I was in the closed beta). Don't get me wrong, Hearthstone is a great game but it is by no means anywhere near the skill capability game that magic is. There really is a skill cap to the game and that is based on a lot of design elements that go towards being faster and more approachable.
Beyond this, there is also a very big problem that hearthstone games are just best of 1 with no sideboards. That is another issue entirely but I also do not think that it lends to being a higher skill based game with those intentions but it does make the game faster and more approachable for new players.
I agree with you there. Hearthstone's advantages are in approachability only. I wish that there were a better way to leave open a window of interaction as cards get played, but I honestly foresee no version of Magic ever being compatible with mobile (where I do 90% of my video-gaming now). And for PC, I remember grinding Pauper tournaments on MODO with Mystical Teachings, where every round was guaranteed to take the full hour and clock management was a major factor. It would take up an entire Saturday to do a tournament. Meanwhile, a Hearthstone game played to full fatigue takes about 10 minutes.
Indirectly though, the approachability and game-length translate into a competitive scene like ladder, which translates into being able to ride out variance with enough time. I'm reminded also of Poker, debatably even more skill-based than Magic, but where it is simply part of the game to catch the wrong side of the shuffler for extended periods. So you can either have a game where luck is a major factor in outcome, or you can have your Swiss style elimination tournament with about 1hr programmed for each round. Having both in one game is a bit of a joke.
Ah, I misunderstood. I thought you meant collusion between wotc and the RC.
It's still a possibility given that the format was originally limited to the Elder Dragons from Legends/Chronicles hence the name 'Elder Dragon Highlander' until Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro took notice of the format's popularity and decided to re-brand it as 'Commander' solely to do nothing but release product for it. Sometimes I wonder If we were much better off with Elder Dragon Highlander over Commander where Generals didn't always decide games.
What's the point of releasing product for a format If it does nothing to help grow playerbases at local game stores where they should be making most of their money off of Standard and Modern events? It's like they're deliberately choosing not to fix Standard and Modern because they know that sanctioning EDH/Commander would cause them to lose more Magic players than they already have with other formats.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Ah, I misunderstood. I thought you meant collusion between wotc and the RC.
It's still a possibility given that the format was originally limited to the Elder Dragons from Legends/Chronicles hence the name 'Elder Dragon Highlander' until Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro took notice of the format's popularity and decided to re-brand it as 'Commander' solely to do nothing but release product for it. Sometimes I wonder If we were much better off with Elder Dragon Highlander over Commander where Generals didn't always decide games.
What's the point of releasing product for a format If it does nothing to help grow playerbases at local game stores where they should be making most of their money off of Standard and Modern events? It's like they're deliberately choosing not to fix Standard and Modern because they know that sanctioning EDH/Commander would cause them to lose more Magic players than they already have with other formats.
I believe your timeline is off a bit. EDH branched out from strictly elder dragons before wotc took any interest in the format, and definitely well before they ever released precons (I starting playing EDH in 2009).
As far as making money, first of all commander generates quite a lot of revenue, not just off the well-selling precons but also off the extra demand for sets. Look at cards like the immortal sun. It's currently one of the most expensive cards in the set. Is that card going to see standard play? I mean, maybe, I don't really know or care, but I'm betting most of the demand for that sort of thing rests squarely on commander. Plus, just having more people playing the game is better. Maybe they'll try other formats as well, as long as they stick around. It's like how coffee shops offer free wifi even though it's "losing them money". You stick around, you tend to buy things.
Ah, I misunderstood. I thought you meant collusion between wotc and the RC.
It's still a possibility given that the format was originally limited to the Elder Dragons from Legends/Chronicles hence the name 'Elder Dragon Highlander' until Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro took notice of the format's popularity and decided to re-brand it as 'Commander' solely to do nothing but release product for it.
I am not sure what this is supposed to mean. The decision to allow all Legendary creatures as generals occured in 2006 at the latest. This is 5 years before WotC decided to release product for it.
And why does it matter that they release product for it? I mean, I get that their idea of balanced generals has been a bit off the mark with things like Derevi and the Eminence generals, but we also got plenty of cool cards to use in the format. If anything, and others have mentioned the same thing, EDH (or Commander) has allowed WotC to cater to a different audience with a specialized product (similar to Conspiracy) and it also drives some sales of Standard legal cards/packs for people that don't play Standard.
If your entire focus is on Modern or Legacy, new Standard sets rarely have much to offer and usually don't have enough to warrant cracking packs. At least with EDH, those cards can be useful to other people outside Modern and Legacy and drives sales at least a little more than they would see.
Ah, I misunderstood. I thought you meant collusion between wotc and the RC.
It's still a possibility given that the format was originally limited to the Elder Dragons from Legends/Chronicles hence the name 'Elder Dragon Highlander' until Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro took notice of the format's popularity and decided to re-brand it as 'Commander' solely to do nothing but release product for it. Sometimes I wonder If we were much better off with Elder Dragon Highlander over Commander where Generals didn't always decide games.
What's the point of releasing product for a format If it does nothing to help grow playerbases at local game stores where they should be making most of their money off of Standard and Modern events? It's like they're deliberately choosing not to fix Standard and Modern because they know that sanctioning EDH/Commander would cause them to lose more Magic players than they already have with other formats.
I believe your timeline is off a bit. EDH branched out from strictly elder dragons before wotc took any interest in the format, and definitely well before they ever released precons (I starting playing EDH in 2009).
As far as making money, first of all commander generates quite a lot of revenue, not just off the well-selling precons but also off the extra demand for sets. Look at cards like the immortal sun. It's currently one of the most expensive cards in the set. Is that card going to see standard play? I mean, maybe, I don't really know or care, but I'm betting most of the demand for that sort of thing rests squarely on commander. Plus, just having more people playing the game is better. Maybe they'll try other formats as well, as long as they stick around. It's like how coffee shops offer free wifi even though it's "losing them money". You stick around, you tend to buy things.
The problem is that Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro are having difficulty trying to balance the ratio of new cards they print for specific formats with too many cards being printed for Commander with Standard and Modern taking a backseat. Rivals of Ixalan does seem like a step in the right direction for Standard and Modern though the majority of rares of mythics printed in the set mostly caters to Commander continuing an ongoing trend of local game stores not being able to profit from rares and mythics having low expected value. Players are buying less sealed product in favor of online singles which are killing local game stores.
I am not sure what this is supposed to mean. The decision to allow all Legendary creatures as generals occured in 2006 at the latest. This is 5 years before WotC decided to release product for it.
And why does it matter that they release product for it? I mean, I get that their idea of balanced generals has been a bit off the mark with things like Derevi and the Eminence generals, but we also got plenty of cool cards to use in the format. If anything, and others have mentioned the same thing, EDH (or Commander) has allowed WotC to cater to a different audience with a specialized product (similar to Conspiracy) and it also drives some sales of Standard legal cards/packs for people that don't play Standard.
If your entire focus is on Modern or Legacy, new Standard sets rarely have much to offer and usually don't have enough to warrant cracking packs. At least with EDH, those cards can be useful to other people outside Modern and Legacy and drives sales at least a little more than they would see.
Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro could be doing more for EDH/Commander than what they're already doing yet they choose not to. Anytime Reserved List cards spike in price due to buyouts it's mostly due to Commander players wanting cards for their decks that collectors want to hoard for themselves that they refuse to let go of. Collectors complain about players wanting to play the actual game that they invested in when they just want to 'win the lottery' through their Reserved List collections in the happenstance that Magic gets discontinued. It has nothing to do with passion for the game when they're just in it for the money like Rudy from Alpha Investments.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Doings some thinkings and up to Onslaught block, mtg be fine for the most part on how it affects each format that includes it. Mirrodin onward different story. So many problematic cards started coming out with long lasting effects. Wonders if commander be more manageable if card pool be of alpha to scourge.
Not fan of commander products as it has some cards that push format too much and force it to grow rather than naturally over time before involvement. Other cards appreciated as they actually open up a colors design space and capabilities without bleeding too much as some need catch-up.
Commander is not the sole contributing factor of poor health for game, but it be factor.
Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro could be doing more for EDH/Commander than what they're already doing yet they choose not to. Anytime Reserved List cards spike in price due to buyouts it's mostly due to Commander players wanting cards for their decks that collectors want to hoard for themselves that they refuse to let go of. Collectors complain about players wanting to play the actual game that they invested in when they just want to 'win the lottery' through their Reserved List collections in the happenstance that Magic gets discontinued. It has nothing to do with passion for the game when they're just in it for the money like Rudy from Alpha Investments.
So, I am still missing the point. Commander is killing Magic because the Reserve List sucks? You also seemed to have changed your argument from "Wizards and the RC are in cahoots and they focus too much on Commander" to "Wizards doesn't care enough for Commander to lessen demand of Reserve List cards". These points seem contradictory.
Your paragraph above also goes from "Commander players wanting cards causes spikes" to "collectors are hoarding cards which causes spikes". Both are probably true (though I would argue it is more speculators causing the spikes, not actual demand), but what argument are you trying to make? How does this relate to Commander killing Magic?
So, I am still missing the point. Commander is killing Magic because the Reserve List sucks? You also seemed to have changed your argument from "Wizards and the RC are in cahoots and they focus too much on Commander" to "Wizards doesn't care enough for Commander to lessen demand of Reserve List cards". These points seem contradictory.
Your paragraph above also goes from "Commander players wanting cards causes spikes" to "collectors are hoarding cards which causes spikes". Both are probably true (though I would argue it is more speculators causing the spikes, not actual demand), but what argument are you trying to make? How does this relate to Commander killing Magic?
I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that the desire to optimize Commander decks is increasing to a point where demand for specific cards are going to continue to go up no matter how many times they get reprinted though the Reserve List is partially to blame for it. Even If Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro could remedy this problem by trying to rescind the Reserve List they would get sued for violating their own reprint policy by opening up a class action lawsuit. They came very close with the card stock quality issues they've been having as of late If they had disclosed them out in public.
One way for Commander to kill Magic is for the EDH Rules Committee to do nothing to help fix the format and leave it in charge with Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro who relies heavily on data and tournament results to determine how to balance formats rather than listen to what the majority of the Magic community says that needs to be done. So lack of direct communication between the company and consumer while potential increase in high barrier of entry toward the format for years to come seem to be the main factors here.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
The problem is that Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro are having difficulty trying to balance the ratio of new cards they print for specific formats with too many cards being printed for Commander with Standard and Modern taking a backseat. Rivals of Ixalan does seem like a step in the right direction for Standard and Modern though the majority of rares of mythics printed in the set mostly caters to Commander continuing an ongoing trend of local game stores not being able to profit from rares and mythics having low expected value. Players are buying less sealed product in favor of online singles which are killing local game stores.
I don't understand this mentality of "wotc doesn't print enough cards for standard". Whatever decks get played in standard will have 60 cards, and whichever are the best cards available will be in them. If that meant wotc went back to printing homelands-quality cards exclusively, then homelands-quality cards would be what's played, and that quality of card would be "for standard". I guess you could argue that, say, ixalan offered fewer standard-played cards than amonkhet or whatever, but your complaints can only be as old as a few sets ago. Once those higher powered sets rotate out, bam, suddenly those sets you maligned are the staples of the new format.
Also most cards will never see significant standard play - true before and after EDH existed. Commander is much less competitive, ergo more diverse strategies can flourish and niche cards can get played. Saying they're printing all these rares for commander is (mostly) false. I'm sure they print a few. If you want to compile some statistics showing the diversity of competitively played cards in standard narrowing over the past 10 years or something, then be my guest, but until then I remain unconvinced.
In my opinion, standard, modern, legacy, and vintage have become a poisonous betrayal of the promise that collectible card games offer. They aren't about finding innovative strategies, discovering exciting cards, and combining them in clever ways. They're about copying decklists off the internet and grinding endlessly until you know the metagame by heart, then doing it all over again when the next season comes around. If it weren't for those formats keeping the value of my draft chaff high, and keeping wotc in business, I'd be happier if all those formats vanished off the face of the earth, with limited as the sole competitive mtg format.
If magic can't survive and allow commander to exist, then so far as I'm concerned, there's nothing worth saving anyway.
Except limited. Limited is still great too. Damn you, limited, for ruining my punchy stinger.
I don't think Commander is killing Magic at all. What is killing Magic (if it's dying), is a stale Standard format, the emergency bans due to poor play testing and card design, the continued change in the block setup, and one other thing I don't believe anyone else has mentioned which I'll get into in a minute. As others have said, Commander keeps players that would leave the game involved in the game.
Myself for instance, due to promotions at work I initially stopped playing Standard due to not having the time to play it how I played it (reactive, seeing what decks in my meta won each FNM or local tournament, figuring out the next evolution of that deck, and designing a deck and sideboard specifically to beat that deck and the other decks in my meta). I don't have the time to devote multiple hours each week to build and play test decks. I was already into Commander at the time of my decision to leave Standard- around the end of RTR/Theros Standard, believe I had 4 EDH decks at that point, if I hadn't been I likely would have sold the majority of my collection and left the game entirely. I was a semi-competitive player at that time, played in local GP's and did fairly decent. Since quitting the format, I have tried venturing back into Standard when time allowed and would play a FNM or two each new set that came out. It wasn't an enjoyable experience anymore given the small variety of decks that were seeing play.
The other cause that I don't believe any one has mentioned is net-decking. This is also a major factor in the small variety of decks that are seeing competitive play. The vast majority of decks at FNM at the different shops I go to in the three areas I've lived in since quitting Standard are all the latest decks to win or top 8 GP's or PTQ's. I don't have a problem with the idea of net-decking itself but IMO it is a contributing factor to Standard being less popular. I went to an FNM as recently as two weeks ago, I played 7 games- 6 of which where against Temur Energy or RDW. I was playing UB control and went 5-2 but it wasn't a fun night. It got to the point where I was asking everyone when we sat down which they were playing.
Magic On-line I feel is also another reason for smaller FNM turnouts. My son also plays Magic. When he first started playing he loved going to FNM and any draft/limited event, now however he never goes to any live events because he plays hours online each week. He & I occasionally will play kitchen table Modern (old Standard decks that have been upgraded with cards that weren't in Standard at the time they were legal decks- for instance my Boros Heroic deck that revolved around Ethreal Armor now with Monastery Swiftspear in place of Nyxborn Shieldmate), but that's the extent of his live play anymore. One of my daughters also was into Magic, but she quit playing altogether due to her brother and I not going to FNM's and her not caring for any other format.
The other cause that I don't believe any one has mentioned is net-decking. This is also a major factor in the small variety of decks that are seeing competitive play. The vast majority of decks at FNM at the different shops I go to in the three areas I've lived in since quitting Standard are all the latest decks to win or top 8 GP's or PTQ's. I don't have a problem with the idea of net-decking itself but IMO it is a contributing factor to Standard being less popular.
Ugh this, I mean I suppose you can't blame people for emulating the best decks but...it creates a sub-set of players who actually can't brew decks very well, they can't see the interactions between cards, balance their own mana etc. They're copy pasting the best deck and reading how to play it and that's it, to the extent where actually I can often go 2-2 in an FNM with a $30 homebrew against people playing the current tier 1 deck of the meta, because they can't actually play it properly, they don't know their own cards well enough to be able to judge when to counter what, how to respond in X situation. Then they end up getting salty because the "best" deck just lost 2-0.
This I can relate to. Week after week you are guaranteed to see the same 2-3 decks played at FNM, at any LGS. The last time I played standard was right after the release of Amonkhet. I went with BW/Mono B zombies for the lulz and it was surprisingly good. However, after the PT, 80% of the people that showed up on FNM's are jamming Temur Marvel and oh was it a nightmare. In a 4-5 round FNM, I went against roughly 3-4 marvel decks. Before the start of any match, I tell my opponent "let me guess, marvel?". And if boring wasn't enough, it's somewhat annoying hearing all those "aspiring pros" at FNM get salty when their "best deck" gets beaten by the random deck that wasn't on their radar so they don't have the SB cards for it.
I've always been a fan of brewing new deck ideas and making jank combos work. However, you can't do that in standard and modern. I quit standard altogether and focused solely on commander and I enjoy the format more than I'd like to admit. What makes me like the format is the social aspect of it. It is as fun or as broken as the community wants it to be. There were a few broken decks in the playgroups I've been in but we've always found ways around it. Either the games become Archenemy until "that guy" uses a lower-power deck or takes the deck's power level a notch, or "that guy" is not included in the playgroup anymore. With Commander, I can sit down, play a game of Magic, have some laughs, be awed by new combos, and proceed to another game, all in the spirit of fun. There is rarely any stress involved with it, something I can't say for Standard and Modern.
If it wasn't for commander, I would have quit MTG altogether.
i, as well as many of the people i regularly play commander with, wouldn't bother with participating in events at all if it wasn't for commander. there are a multitude of reasons why.
commander participation has no bearing on other formats, and isnt' detracting from participation in those formats unless your lgs is holdings its commander night the same day as its other format events.
from my perspective this question is like asking if basketball is killing interest in sports, or if chocolate has eliminated interest in cake.
commander participation has no bearing on other formats, and isnt' detracting from participation in those formats unless your lgs is holdings its commander night the same day as its other format events.
Commander participation impacts other formats. People have a limited amount of time and money that they're willing to put into the game. I can get out to play one night a week and I almost always make it an EDH night, which means I'm not playing in some other event. Similar logic applies to money. If I'm spending my MtG budget on EDH related purchases, that's money that I'm not spending on constructed decks/limited or whatever. I don't think that EDH play is a significant factor in whether or not someone is going to play other formats but it's misleading to say that it has no impact at all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
commander participation has no bearing on other formats, and isnt' detracting from participation in those formats unless your lgs is holdings its commander night the same day as its other format events.
Commander participation impacts other formats. People have a limited amount of time and money that they're willing to put into the game. I can get out to play one night a week and I almost always make it an EDH night, which means I'm not playing in some other event. Similar logic applies to money. If I'm spending my MtG budget on EDH related purchases, that's money that I'm not spending on constructed decks/limited or whatever. I don't think that EDH play is a significant factor in whether or not someone is going to play other formats but it's misleading to say that it has no impact at all.
i disagree.
Its just a flavor of magic. I can like cake but hate vanilla cake. For many, even with infinite time and money, they still wouldnt participate in other formats. A good example is that i have a deck for legacy, a competitive one, but i do not go to events. we pick and choose the formats we want to participate in, no one forces themselves to participate in a format they dont enjoy, if you do youre missing the entire point of a leisure activity. Those people would otherwise not be playing magic at all if it meant participating in an event that they dont enjoy vs one they do.
You can use the example of edh players wont spend their money on limited and that impacts limited, but in reality even without edh they wouldnt be spending money on limited if its not something they have interest in.
Edh doesnt trump and cancel out interest in other formats. We dont really stop and go well i can only play one so i choose you, we say this is what i enjoy, i dont enjoy this other one.
Its kind of like pvp in an mmo. I can choose to play the mmo and not pvp. While i am choosing how to spend my time in the game, if i dont like pvp it has zero impact on the pve aspect, and those two aspects can exist simultaneously while not detracting from each other as they appeal to different people who otherwise would not bother with that game if only one game mode existed. Ie, if i want to pvp but it isnt an existing mode ill play a game where it does exist rather than slog through the pve mode.
Every now and again EDH gems are printed in Standard sets just to have EDH players buy them as singles. Which means that people cracking packs can sell cards to everyone playing all formats. So I think that Commander is actually helping more than it's hurting, even if it's only slightly more.
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
commander participation has no bearing on other formats, and isnt' detracting from participation in those formats unless your lgs is holdings its commander night the same day as its other format events.
Commander participation impacts other formats. People have a limited amount of time and money that they're willing to put into the game. I can get out to play one night a week and I almost always make it an EDH night, which means I'm not playing in some other event. Similar logic applies to money. If I'm spending my MtG budget on EDH related purchases, that's money that I'm not spending on constructed decks/limited or whatever. I don't think that EDH play is a significant factor in whether or not someone is going to play other formats but it's misleading to say that it has no impact at all.
i disagree.
Its just a flavor of magic. I can like cake but hate vanilla cake. For many, even with infinite time and money, they still wouldnt participate in other formats. A good example is that i have a deck for legacy, a competitive one, but i do not go to events. we pick and choose the formats we want to participate in, no one forces themselves to participate in a format they dont enjoy, if you do youre missing the entire point of a leisure activity. Those people would otherwise not be playing magic at all if it meant participating in an event that they dont enjoy vs one they do.
You can use the example of edh players wont spend their money on limited and that impacts limited, but in reality even without edh they wouldnt be spending money on limited if its not something they have interest in.
Edh doesnt trump and cancel out interest in other formats. We dont really stop and go well i can only play one so i choose you, we say this is what i enjoy, i dont enjoy this other one.
Its kind of like pvp in an mmo. I can choose to play the mmo and not pvp. While i am choosing how to spend my time in the game, if i dont like pvp it has zero impact on the pve aspect, and those two aspects can exist simultaneously while not detracting from each other as they appeal to different people who otherwise would not bother with that game if only one game mode existed. Ie, if i want to pvp but it isnt an existing mode ill play a game where it does exist rather than slog through the pve mode.
Say three formats are being held on same friday night, each one of the three at a store within driving distance for consumer. These three are Standard, Modern and Commander. Which do you think people are more likely to attend?
EDH does cancel out interest, not all, but a good proportion out of other formats. See above example.
What? Unless you be goldfishing against the the Theros challenge decks, you are always in PvP. Commander in its multiplayer incarnation is still PvP even if the social contract is in effect.
Every now and again EDH gems are printed in Standard sets just to have EDH players buy them as singles. Which means that people cracking packs can sell cards to everyone playing all formats. So I think that Commander is actually helping more than it's hurting, even if it's only slightly more.
Every now and again EDH gems are printed in Standard sets just to have EDH players buy them as singles. Which means that people cracking packs can sell cards to everyone playing all formats. So I think that Commander is actually helping more than it's hurting, even if it's only slightly more.
I don't think this is somethign commander specific. As someone who enjoys playing magic and does not care about collecting it, singles is the way to go for me. While I only play commander, the same would be true if I would build a deck for a different format. It's just way cheaper. I spend €30 on RIX singles and have a copy of every card I want.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
commander participation has no bearing on other formats, and isnt' detracting from participation in those formats unless your lgs is holdings its commander night the same day as its other format events.
Commander participation impacts other formats. People have a limited amount of time and money that they're willing to put into the game. I can get out to play one night a week and I almost always make it an EDH night, which means I'm not playing in some other event. Similar logic applies to money. If I'm spending my MtG budget on EDH related purchases, that's money that I'm not spending on constructed decks/limited or whatever. I don't think that EDH play is a significant factor in whether or not someone is going to play other formats but it's misleading to say that it has no impact at all.
i disagree.
Its just a flavor of magic. I can like cake but hate vanilla cake. For many, even with infinite time and money, they still wouldnt participate in other formats. A good example is that i have a deck for legacy, a competitive one, but i do not go to events. we pick and choose the formats we want to participate in, no one forces themselves to participate in a format they dont enjoy, if you do youre missing the entire point of a leisure activity. Those people would otherwise not be playing magic at all if it meant participating in an event that they dont enjoy vs one they do.
You can use the example of edh players wont spend their money on limited and that impacts limited, but in reality even without edh they wouldnt be spending money on limited if its not something they have interest in.
Edh doesnt trump and cancel out interest in other formats. We dont really stop and go well i can only play one so i choose you, we say this is what i enjoy, i dont enjoy this other one.
Its kind of like pvp in an mmo. I can choose to play the mmo and not pvp. While i am choosing how to spend my time in the game, if i dont like pvp it has zero impact on the pve aspect, and those two aspects can exist simultaneously while not detracting from each other as they appeal to different people who otherwise would not bother with that game if only one game mode existed. Ie, if i want to pvp but it isnt an existing mode ill play a game where it does exist rather than slog through the pve mode.
Say three formats are being held on same friday night, each one of the three at a store within driving distance for consumer. These three are Standard, Modern and Commander. Which do you think people are more likely to attend?
EDH does cancel out interest, not all, but a good proportion out of other formats. See above example.
What? Unless you be goldfishing against the the Theros challenge decks, you are always in PvP. Commander in its multiplayer incarnation is still PvP even if the social contract is in effect.
The same could be said for any 3 formats being held on the same night.
Every now and again EDH gems are printed in Standard sets just to have EDH players buy them as singles. Which means that people cracking packs can sell cards to everyone playing all formats. So I think that Commander is actually helping more than it's hurting, even if it's only slightly more.
Every now and again EDH gems are printed in Standard sets just to have EDH players buy them as singles. Which means that people cracking packs can sell cards to everyone playing all formats. So I think that Commander is actually helping more than it's hurting, even if it's only slightly more.
I don't think this is somethign commander specific. As someone who enjoys playing magic and does not care about collecting it, singles is the way to go for me. While I only play commander, the same would be true if I would build a deck for a different format. It's just way cheaper. I spend €30 on RIX singles and have a copy of every card I want.
What I meant from my comment was cards like Mind's Dilation which clearly aren't going to impact Standard but could definitely see play in a casual format like Commander.
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
i disagree.
Its just a flavor of magic. I can like cake but hate vanilla cake. For many, even with infinite time and money, they still wouldnt participate in other formats. A good example is that i have a deck for legacy, a competitive one, but i do not go to events. we pick and choose the formats we want to participate in, no one forces themselves to participate in a format they dont enjoy, if you do youre missing the entire point of a leisure activity. Those people would otherwise not be playing magic at all if it meant participating in an event that they dont enjoy vs one they do.
You can use the example of edh players wont spend their money on limited and that impacts limited, but in reality even without edh they wouldnt be spending money on limited if its not something they have interest in.
Edh doesnt trump and cancel out interest in other formats. We dont really stop and go well i can only play one so i choose you, we say this is what i enjoy, i dont enjoy this other one.
That's assuming that EDH is the only format EDH players enjoy. I enjoy EDH and legacy. From time to time, I like to play some limited or some moderns. The constraints on my time are such that I can realistically only go out and play about once a week. I choose to play EDH because that's the format I enjoy most. If time allowed, I would play in the local legacy weeklies as well. I'm giving you a specific example of EDH impacting participation in other formats for at least one player and I doubt that I'm the only person playing the game with some kind of limited resources.
Again, I don't think it's a significant factor in participation in other formats. I've already made the same point as you earlier in the thread that not all players who play primarily EDH would have any interest in other formats if it didn't exist. I think it's a net benefit for MtG and I don't think it's harming other formats, let alone killing the game. There are still players where choosing to play EDH is impacting their participation in other formats. The only point I'm trying to make is that it's not as absolute as you made it out to be in your initial post.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
To make EDH/Commander a flagship competitive format like Standard, Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro would need to vastly expand the banned list or else rule out old sets altogether to divide EDH/Commander into Type I and Type II like they did back in the 90's. It's something that Sheldon Menery and the EDH Rules Committee doesn't want let alone everyone else who continues to support the format despite the company continuing to shoot themselves in the foot instead of looking out for players and local game stores. Different game using the same gaming elements in the sense that it probably would've been better off as it's own Trading Card Game/Collectible Card Game or Living Card Game instead of being attached to Magic? Unfortunately it isn't possible because it would take years in order for a new Trading Card Game/Collectible Card Game or Living Card Game in this day in age to accumulate an amount of set releases to maintain a big enough card pool that rivals that of Magic: the Gathering. Then there's the question as to whether If it's good enough that it will take off based on source material.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I totally agree with you that Hearthstone may be killing magic's competative constructed play but I do not agree that it is because Hearthstone is somehow a higher skill based game. Magic as far more complex given instants and the amount of player interaction when it is not your turn and the ability to respond to responses. Hearthstone designed its game to be fast and in doing that they cut opponent interaction entirely when it is not their turn. I am not saying that the decision to go this direction is wrong by any means but ultimately it creates a simpler game that if you want to look into the high skill decks of both games, magic has a lot higher skill cap due to the increased interactions.
Also, some decks (especially combo decks in HS) have almost no way in which to interact with them other than what.... Dirty Rat and Ice Block? I have played / watched hearthstone essentially since beta (I was in the closed beta). Don't get me wrong, Hearthstone is a great game but it is by no means anywhere near the skill capability game that magic is. There really is a skill cap to the game and that is based on a lot of design elements that go towards being faster and more approachable.
Beyond this, there is also a very big problem that hearthstone games are just best of 1 with no sideboards. That is another issue entirely but I also do not think that it lends to being a higher skill based game with those intentions but it does make the game faster and more approachable for new players.
Yea, the free bys are total bull*****. I don't know what to say about this. I went to an event a few years back just intending to sort of casually play some magic on the side but one of the guys I went with had the free bys. I think he took like 56th place which is kind of huge still for a GP.
Lets not throw in this new thing which is people investing in magic. I own a few expensive reserve list cards and I am totally baffled by the recent years where it seems like everything has doubled in price for no reason. I am not fond of what is happening to prices the last few years. Even just regular cards that people run have trippled or more for those old $10-$15 staples are now $50+
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
I do think collusion is a smaller problem than people think it is. If it's a 4 person pod and 2 people conspire to win and then coin flip (or whatever) the other 2 people can theoretically do the same. But also betrayal is always going to be the smart play for the stronger of the colluding players once it's 1v1, since it's better than a coin flip. And if you're planning in advance to 1v1 once it's down to 1v1...then the person who's behind obviously has motivation to screw with the person ahead (whether blatantly or secretly) before it becomes 1v1, and potentially even to kill them in order to have an easier 1v1 with the other person. Sure, if you split prizes then I guess it's safe to assume your partner won't backstab, but if you think you're the stronger player then you have no reason to take 1/2 loot for 2x odds.
I'm not saying there aren't games where 2 people collude and kill the other players, but I'm saying that at least one of those players is not playing optimally when they do so. My winrate is substantially higher than 50%, and that's from playing smart politics, not blatant collusion.
Also, sidebar, I know some tourneys do stupid things like "top 2 advance"...which is a fault with that tournament structure and not with the game. Prizes/advancement for the winner, everyone else gets nothing. That's the only way to keep it fair. Otherwise you're begging for collusion, within the game if not outside of it. Add in random podding and players who know how to play intelligently and the problem goes away.
None of this is to say that I think commander tourneys are a good idea, just that collusion is overblown imo.
Anyway my main point was that EDH being a breakable format isn't fixable. And imo it's not really a problem, I run into very few top-tier decks. Like almost zero. And if they're one deck in a pod, they're usually handle-able anyway.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I don' want to derail your point, but your eamples are poorly chosen.
I got into magic right before Ravnica released. Hierarch was never over $12. Zoo is why it had any value, and it was dropping shortly after Coldsnap.
Dark Confidant held a $10-$12 prce tag from relase all the way until 2009 or so, where it went up. Not because of Modern. Vintage and Legacy palyers knew it was great. It just took the 2008 and 2011 price spikes of all cards to make it's price go to $20+ all the way up to the $75 or so it hit because of a lack of reprints.
Doubling Season was $20 on release and never dipped. That card has been a Timmy card since before planeswalkers were ever a thing. The Lorwyn planeswalkers didn't have super scary ultimate effects, but once future planeswalkers did, the value of doubling season continued to grow.
I don't know where you ever found Umezawa’s Jitte for under $20. Even after standard rotation and Time Spiral, it was useful in extended and legacy lists. Even Vintage fish decks ran it in the side for the mirror.
Maybe you had an LGS which did not care about the online secondary card market price, but where I am from in Northern California, card prices were a part of my life for several years. I would speculate cards for a good 3 or 4 years. I remember grabbing up goyfs at the Time Spial pre-release and release events for $2-$5 and was worried I would lose my shirt on them... then thought i struck gold and flipped them at about $50 right before standard rotation. I made a huge profit and got out WAY too early. Such is life.
Your overall point is alright, though extended was replaced by Modern, but the same ideas remained: Only eternally playable card have any value... and most eternally playable cards are either cheap to cast or cheat mana costs some how.
Commander has done a lot for allowing otherwise worthless cards to get a spotlight and for old school classics to retain and increase in value.
Honestly, as far as the market is concerned, players have discovered the value and reprint rate of cards. For example, Modern Masters sets focus on specific sets witha few throw in cards to reprint from. If your card wasn't reprinted, then it likely won't be for years. Mikaeus, the Unhallowed sat at $5 doing nothing until a while after Commander 2014 came out and the demand for mono black zombie decks rose thanks to the mono colored decks they released for commander. Then when MM2 came out and did NOT reprint him, everybody knew that he is unlikely to get a reprint for 5+ years. Maybe in a bigger eternal set at best. I am glad I got mine at $5. That is not the only card that has happened to. it is as important to see what is NOT reprinted as it is to see what is.
I agree with you there. Hearthstone's advantages are in approachability only. I wish that there were a better way to leave open a window of interaction as cards get played, but I honestly foresee no version of Magic ever being compatible with mobile (where I do 90% of my video-gaming now). And for PC, I remember grinding Pauper tournaments on MODO with Mystical Teachings, where every round was guaranteed to take the full hour and clock management was a major factor. It would take up an entire Saturday to do a tournament. Meanwhile, a Hearthstone game played to full fatigue takes about 10 minutes.
Indirectly though, the approachability and game-length translate into a competitive scene like ladder, which translates into being able to ride out variance with enough time. I'm reminded also of Poker, debatably even more skill-based than Magic, but where it is simply part of the game to catch the wrong side of the shuffler for extended periods. So you can either have a game where luck is a major factor in outcome, or you can have your Swiss style elimination tournament with about 1hr programmed for each round. Having both in one game is a bit of a joke.
What's the point of releasing product for a format If it does nothing to help grow playerbases at local game stores where they should be making most of their money off of Standard and Modern events? It's like they're deliberately choosing not to fix Standard and Modern because they know that sanctioning EDH/Commander would cause them to lose more Magic players than they already have with other formats.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
As far as making money, first of all commander generates quite a lot of revenue, not just off the well-selling precons but also off the extra demand for sets. Look at cards like the immortal sun. It's currently one of the most expensive cards in the set. Is that card going to see standard play? I mean, maybe, I don't really know or care, but I'm betting most of the demand for that sort of thing rests squarely on commander. Plus, just having more people playing the game is better. Maybe they'll try other formats as well, as long as they stick around. It's like how coffee shops offer free wifi even though it's "losing them money". You stick around, you tend to buy things.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
And why does it matter that they release product for it? I mean, I get that their idea of balanced generals has been a bit off the mark with things like Derevi and the Eminence generals, but we also got plenty of cool cards to use in the format. If anything, and others have mentioned the same thing, EDH (or Commander) has allowed WotC to cater to a different audience with a specialized product (similar to Conspiracy) and it also drives some sales of Standard legal cards/packs for people that don't play Standard.
If your entire focus is on Modern or Legacy, new Standard sets rarely have much to offer and usually don't have enough to warrant cracking packs. At least with EDH, those cards can be useful to other people outside Modern and Legacy and drives sales at least a little more than they would see.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Not fan of commander products as it has some cards that push format too much and force it to grow rather than naturally over time before involvement. Other cards appreciated as they actually open up a colors design space and capabilities without bleeding too much as some need catch-up.
Commander is not the sole contributing factor of poor health for game, but it be factor.
Your paragraph above also goes from "Commander players wanting cards causes spikes" to "collectors are hoarding cards which causes spikes". Both are probably true (though I would argue it is more speculators causing the spikes, not actual demand), but what argument are you trying to make? How does this relate to Commander killing Magic?
One way for Commander to kill Magic is for the EDH Rules Committee to do nothing to help fix the format and leave it in charge with Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro who relies heavily on data and tournament results to determine how to balance formats rather than listen to what the majority of the Magic community says that needs to be done. So lack of direct communication between the company and consumer while potential increase in high barrier of entry toward the format for years to come seem to be the main factors here.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Also most cards will never see significant standard play - true before and after EDH existed. Commander is much less competitive, ergo more diverse strategies can flourish and niche cards can get played. Saying they're printing all these rares for commander is (mostly) false. I'm sure they print a few. If you want to compile some statistics showing the diversity of competitively played cards in standard narrowing over the past 10 years or something, then be my guest, but until then I remain unconvinced.
In my opinion, standard, modern, legacy, and vintage have become a poisonous betrayal of the promise that collectible card games offer. They aren't about finding innovative strategies, discovering exciting cards, and combining them in clever ways. They're about copying decklists off the internet and grinding endlessly until you know the metagame by heart, then doing it all over again when the next season comes around. If it weren't for those formats keeping the value of my draft chaff high, and keeping wotc in business, I'd be happier if all those formats vanished off the face of the earth, with limited as the sole competitive mtg format.
If magic can't survive and allow commander to exist, then so far as I'm concerned, there's nothing worth saving anyway.
Except limited. Limited is still great too. Damn you, limited, for ruining my punchy stinger.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Myself for instance, due to promotions at work I initially stopped playing Standard due to not having the time to play it how I played it (reactive, seeing what decks in my meta won each FNM or local tournament, figuring out the next evolution of that deck, and designing a deck and sideboard specifically to beat that deck and the other decks in my meta). I don't have the time to devote multiple hours each week to build and play test decks. I was already into Commander at the time of my decision to leave Standard- around the end of RTR/Theros Standard, believe I had 4 EDH decks at that point, if I hadn't been I likely would have sold the majority of my collection and left the game entirely. I was a semi-competitive player at that time, played in local GP's and did fairly decent. Since quitting the format, I have tried venturing back into Standard when time allowed and would play a FNM or two each new set that came out. It wasn't an enjoyable experience anymore given the small variety of decks that were seeing play.
The other cause that I don't believe any one has mentioned is net-decking. This is also a major factor in the small variety of decks that are seeing competitive play. The vast majority of decks at FNM at the different shops I go to in the three areas I've lived in since quitting Standard are all the latest decks to win or top 8 GP's or PTQ's. I don't have a problem with the idea of net-decking itself but IMO it is a contributing factor to Standard being less popular. I went to an FNM as recently as two weeks ago, I played 7 games- 6 of which where against Temur Energy or RDW. I was playing UB control and went 5-2 but it wasn't a fun night. It got to the point where I was asking everyone when we sat down which they were playing.
Magic On-line I feel is also another reason for smaller FNM turnouts. My son also plays Magic. When he first started playing he loved going to FNM and any draft/limited event, now however he never goes to any live events because he plays hours online each week. He & I occasionally will play kitchen table Modern (old Standard decks that have been upgraded with cards that weren't in Standard at the time they were legal decks- for instance my Boros Heroic deck that revolved around Ethreal Armor now with Monastery Swiftspear in place of Nyxborn Shieldmate), but that's the extent of his live play anymore. One of my daughters also was into Magic, but she quit playing altogether due to her brother and I not going to FNM's and her not caring for any other format.
Building: Varina
This I can relate to. Week after week you are guaranteed to see the same 2-3 decks played at FNM, at any LGS. The last time I played standard was right after the release of Amonkhet. I went with BW/Mono B zombies for the lulz and it was surprisingly good. However, after the PT, 80% of the people that showed up on FNM's are jamming Temur Marvel and oh was it a nightmare. In a 4-5 round FNM, I went against roughly 3-4 marvel decks. Before the start of any match, I tell my opponent "let me guess, marvel?". And if boring wasn't enough, it's somewhat annoying hearing all those "aspiring pros" at FNM get salty when their "best deck" gets beaten by the random deck that wasn't on their radar so they don't have the SB cards for it.
I've always been a fan of brewing new deck ideas and making jank combos work. However, you can't do that in standard and modern. I quit standard altogether and focused solely on commander and I enjoy the format more than I'd like to admit. What makes me like the format is the social aspect of it. It is as fun or as broken as the community wants it to be. There were a few broken decks in the playgroups I've been in but we've always found ways around it. Either the games become Archenemy until "that guy" uses a lower-power deck or takes the deck's power level a notch, or "that guy" is not included in the playgroup anymore. With Commander, I can sit down, play a game of Magic, have some laughs, be awed by new combos, and proceed to another game, all in the spirit of fun. There is rarely any stress involved with it, something I can't say for Standard and Modern.
If it wasn't for commander, I would have quit MTG altogether.
RBW Mardu Reveler
Commander:
UW Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper - One-Punch Griffin || UR Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain - Historic Tribal Superfriends
GR Omnath, Locus of Rage - Turbo Lands Spellslinger || WURBG Scion of the Ur-Dragon - Living Death Reanimator
BGonti, Lord of Luxury - Gonti's Midnight Party
Under Construction:
WGU Rubinia Soulsinger - Enchantress || RBGU Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder - Cascading Artifacts
RU Jhoira of the Ghitu - Dragonstorm Eldrazi || RU Mizzix of the Izmagnus - Spellslinger
WURBG The Ur-Dragon - Cloning for the Win || WGU Roon of the Hidden Realm - Creature Toolbox
RBGU Vial Smasher the Fierce Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix - Lots'a Combos || BW Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - Reanimator Combo
WBGU Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Modified Precon
BUR Nekusar, the Mindrazer || U Arcanis the Omnipotent - Artifact "Storm"
i, as well as many of the people i regularly play commander with, wouldn't bother with participating in events at all if it wasn't for commander. there are a multitude of reasons why.
commander participation has no bearing on other formats, and isnt' detracting from participation in those formats unless your lgs is holdings its commander night the same day as its other format events.
from my perspective this question is like asking if basketball is killing interest in sports, or if chocolate has eliminated interest in cake.
i disagree.
Its just a flavor of magic. I can like cake but hate vanilla cake. For many, even with infinite time and money, they still wouldnt participate in other formats. A good example is that i have a deck for legacy, a competitive one, but i do not go to events. we pick and choose the formats we want to participate in, no one forces themselves to participate in a format they dont enjoy, if you do youre missing the entire point of a leisure activity. Those people would otherwise not be playing magic at all if it meant participating in an event that they dont enjoy vs one they do.
You can use the example of edh players wont spend their money on limited and that impacts limited, but in reality even without edh they wouldnt be spending money on limited if its not something they have interest in.
Edh doesnt trump and cancel out interest in other formats. We dont really stop and go well i can only play one so i choose you, we say this is what i enjoy, i dont enjoy this other one.
Its kind of like pvp in an mmo. I can choose to play the mmo and not pvp. While i am choosing how to spend my time in the game, if i dont like pvp it has zero impact on the pve aspect, and those two aspects can exist simultaneously while not detracting from each other as they appeal to different people who otherwise would not bother with that game if only one game mode existed. Ie, if i want to pvp but it isnt an existing mode ill play a game where it does exist rather than slog through the pve mode.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
EDH does cancel out interest, not all, but a good proportion out of other formats. See above example.
What? Unless you be goldfishing against the the Theros challenge decks, you are always in PvP. Commander in its multiplayer incarnation is still PvP even if the social contract is in effect.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
The same could be said for any 3 formats being held on the same night.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
What I meant from my comment was cards like Mind's Dilation which clearly aren't going to impact Standard but could definitely see play in a casual format like Commander.
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Again, I don't think it's a significant factor in participation in other formats. I've already made the same point as you earlier in the thread that not all players who play primarily EDH would have any interest in other formats if it didn't exist. I think it's a net benefit for MtG and I don't think it's harming other formats, let alone killing the game. There are still players where choosing to play EDH is impacting their participation in other formats. The only point I'm trying to make is that it's not as absolute as you made it out to be in your initial post.