I played Magic for a long time when I was a younger, as a kitchen table player. Afterwards, I got away from the game, and when I got back, I was actually playing casually and thinking about building a deck to play in tournaments, until I was introduced to Commander.
I played Commander a lot after that. I built tons of decks and bought lots of cards. Eventually my interest for the format became just lukewarm, but I noticed something: the fact that I was introduced to Commander kept me away from spending money with any official tournaments that were not sealed format.
I've noticed this shift as a whole in the Magic community: 60-card casual was entirely overshadowed by Commander. The thing is: Commander is its own thing. You can play it casually, competitively, a mix of both, however you like. That means the "transition" from playing casually to playing competitively doesn't exist anymore as it used to.
Of course, lots of people play casually on EDH and competitive on Modern, for example. However, if you are on a regular Commander diet, you may never feel the need to port into standard, for instance. The result is that there is a rift between casual and competitive Magic that I don't think it existed before.
So, my question is: is the prevalence of Commander as a casual format killing Magic slowly? (By slowly taking away the desire from casual players to move into competitive?)
The lack of interest for standard and the printing of more cards for Commander even in regular sets seem to support this. Even if you argue that people dislike standard due to current design, matters get even worse for standard when the casual format of reference for comparison is an eternal one full of legacy staples.
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Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
I actually see where you are coming from, but I do not think Commander is hurting Magic at all, not for a second. Wizards makes money selling Commander products, Commander players are more likely than strict Modern or Standard players to crack packs. Most Commander players will probably never bother getting into competitive events, but most PLAYERS really don't, kitchen table Magic is bigger than any format. It's not really keeping them at a casual level, it's just giving them an avenue to stay in the game, it works well for players who don't like other formats. It can also help retain established players. I am almost exclusively Modern, but I like a no-stakes Commander game sometimes, and most of my friends play that, it's easier for me to play a Commander game than for them to buy into Modern. Just my view
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
It might be hurting standard, sure. But I think lots of people who are regular EDH players aren't necessarily the kinds of players who were going to go to tournaments in the first place. I used to play modern at FNM, but after a while it just wasn't that fun and I wondered what I was competing for, since I'm not going to travel to GPs or anything like that. So now it's just EDH and cube. Keeps me in the game at a level of competition and ambition I'm comfortable with for the moment. Though if paper pauper takes off, I may become an FNM attendee once again. But for now, Sunday afternoons playing a few EDH games or a cube draft at the local place is great for me.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
That's a difficult question to wrap my head around and, in a way, I see where you're coming from. But, I'd have to disagree because the appeal Magic holds differs by the individual. That's why we have these different formats and if Magic is indeed 'dying slowly', EDH seems to be helping keep it afloat, if anything. While EDH has been around for years, it wasn't necessarily popular or widely known (I only heard of it back in 2015, but I can remember seeing the 2013 Precons in large retailers before that). The increase of interest regarding it (and the growing number of players) is simply because it's become more accessible, in my opinion.
If interest in Competitive Magic is dying, I do not think EDH is the one killing it. It could be contributing, but I feel it would more likely be a symptom - if there is something perceived to be wrong with Competitive formats, then that is driving players elsewhere, or creating an invisible barrier for newer players looking at those formats.
This also counts for the "but standard sucks" commentary, I believe. People haven't liked Standard since... What? Battle for Zendikar? From what I observed, EDH really starting drawing a crowd in with the 2015 Precons, right as Standard, uhm, shat itself for lack of better terms. If people wanted to play, but found Standard lacking, here are these beat Precons for a format you can do multiplayer, conveniently on the shelves.
If anything, my impression is that EDH gets casual players into stores who wouldn't otherwise be there. I play with a regular group. For most of them, if they weren't playing EDH they'd just be playing less magic. There are plenty of casual players, even heavily invested casual players, who don't have an interest in competitive magic. IIRC they're the vast majority of magic players according to MaRo.
I got out of standard many years ago and have no desire to go back. If I was just playing legacy, which is my tournament format of choice and which I have the cards to play, I'd go out maybe once every month or two. EDH gets me in the door (or more correctly, the door of the bar attached to the LGS) on a weekly basis. Several years ago when I had fewer obligations it was getting me in the door several times a week. If I didn't have a good casual option I wouldn't be playing standard, I'd just be spending my entertainment money on other things.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
There's a limited number of magic players, and I'm sure some of them are playing commander that would otherwise be playing standard or whatever. And I know for me personally, my magic interest tends to drift between commander and limited - at times I've very interested in limited, at other times commander, sometimes neither, but rarely both at once.
That said I think more variety is basically always better. Keeping someone in the game at all is much more important, imo, than making someone go competitive from casual. And besides, even if there's no prizes on the line, there's TONS of room to grow as a magic player in commander, so it doesn't limit the strategic elements of the game at all imo. If anything it enhances them.
Personally I've never been able to get into constructed in any card game (primarily talking about mtg and hearthstone). The fact that optimal decks are discovered so quickly really kills the element of exploration that I think makes TCGs interesting, and that element is still present in commander. If commander didn't exist, I'd still probably play limited, but I wouldn't be playing standard or modern. Commander is just a totally different game, and imo has more in common with limited than constructed competitive formats. I know a lot of people who follow the same formats as I do and I don't think it's a coincidence. Does that maybe pull people away from standard? Maybe, but the existence of monopoly might pull people away from standard too.
I feel EDH is more or less a different game from 60 card constructed, and the transition between the two is a bit awkward. I’m also admittedly not a big fan of it overall. EDH is a much better game for multiplayer, but I’ve always preferred 1v1.
I think it killed Legacy with all the strange cards that came out specifically made for Commander but legal in Legacy and Vintage. TNN, Leovold, Toxic Deluge, Council's Judgment, Recruiter of the Guard
I would say that Commander/EDH is it's own game and different from 60 card constructed. From that perspective, I'd say that's more of reflection on the constructed formats than Commander. Now I'm not an expert or that highly knowledgeable, but last I heard of Standard, it wasn't that good. I don't remember much other than my thoughts going something like "Man, I feel bad for those guys and thank goodness, I don't have those kind problems."
I can honestly see why a lot of people would go to Commander or start and never stop. There's a lot to play and explore. It can be casual or competitive. It can be cheap or expensive. There's no one true meta that rules the game. Overall, Commander just encourages you to get out there and start playing what you want, whatever that is and give you tools to do so.
However, if people prefer that to constructed, so much, then something's up with constructed. As others have said, a symptom of a bigger problem, not the problem itself.
Before commander became a big thing. Kitchen table magic was super nebulous and hard to pin down what it was.
Was it just decks with no restrictions people playing stupidly strong stuff that was banned.
Was it people just opened a box of cards and just played whatever they owned.
My kitchen table magic stuff, which I occasionally play, is ex standard, decks people played in standard years ago upgraded with new cards or people heard this standard deck was good so when it rotated out they picked it up.
1v1 or multiplayer etc.
What is kitchen table magic? wizards couldn't really design for kitchen table because it had no rules no quantifiable speed or feeling. They occasionally had cards that played better in multiplier but the cards were either failed standard cards or "cool" designs.
Commander has given structure to kitchen table magic. Now we say "well its good in commander" rather than eh "maybe in casual". Add to that the commander products are simply good products that allows WotC to sell directly to casual players rather than having to go through standard (and putting in a trash standard card in packs).
Commander is the best casual format, so I consider it kitchen table magic evolved, which is why it is out completing normal kitchen table magic.
Honestly I think you may be overestimating the number of people that would actually be interested in competitive Magic. I've tried it. I did a PTQ back when thats all there was in that vein, ive done a GP. And I legitimately hated both. It's mostly because I just always have less fun doing these sort of things without friends. But I would imagine that sort of thing would hold true for lots of people the number of kitchen table players will always VASTLY outnumber the number of people at GPs and opens etc. As long as people are buying cards magic will go on.
If it weren't for commander, Id'd have stop playing soon after Zendikar rotated out. It's honestly the only reason I keep playing and haven't sold off my collection.
If Standard and Modern were the only way to play Magic, I would almost certainly stop playing. I stopped building casual 60-card decks years ago because the matchups those generate is miserable. One of the things keeping Magic alive is that there's a huge variety of ways people can play.
If you are pondering whether it's cost-effective to produce booster packs when Commander-oriented players are unlikely to consume them, consider that they started producing 100-card products specifically for this demographic and that first year was so successful, they decided to continue doing it every year. They seem to sell well despite the hefty price point and looking only at the costs of cardstock and ink, they should be more profitable for wizards despite not capable of being the bulk of the sales.
Now, Commander might be a factor in the reduction of precons for normal sets. It used to be each set would come with 4 decks around that set's themes that could entice players to buy packs to improve. I could easily see the rise of Commander competing with that product and it changed to two planeswalker-oriented decks, likely for a mix of factors.
If Commander were the only means of playing Magic, I feel like it would have a shorter lifespan.
Magic is not Standard. Magic is not Modern. Magic is not kitchen table casual. Magic is not Commander. Magic is not 60-card. Magic is not 100-card. Magic is not booster packs.
Magic is a common set of rules that all those games use with different subsets of cards. Those rules are more likely to continue to exist if there are a lot of different games using them. If the monetization/distribution needs to change, it will.
it probably does effect the casuals playing at fnm. Those who r looking to just have fun and do what they want will most likely gravitate towards edh. I usually ask newer players what they r looking to get out of Magic and end up pointing them in the direction of edh instead of standard. My lgs is super competitive and stacked w/ tier 1 decks. So unless they want to be super competitive and drop some dough. Edh it is for them.
I only play edh now though, I don't have the time or money for standard anymore. /children
I see where lots of people are coming from. I used to think of Commander as a general good thing as well, especially because of the argument "if there wasn't any commander, I probably wouldn't be playing Magic". I just don't know if that is true anymore. If there wasn't Commander, I'm pretty sure kitchen table would have survived and I would have ported from my werewolf tribal deck into some standard deck when I started playing Magic again.
I do think that, in its humble begginings, commander was overall just good. New products, new options, etc. However, I feel like when constructed formats change or get bad, instead of leaving the game and waiting for it to get better, people join the commander crowd. Hey, that might be good, right? Well, maybe. If someone is entering in Magic for the first time and they see people playing essentially two different types of games (60-card constructed or 99-singleton) they have to make a choice in what to invest. Having a good commander collection might mean you don't have enough cards to even put a modern deck together. Of course, you could sell the commander cards and try modern, but would you really do that after investing so much money in commander? Finally, to build this good commander collection you don't depend on the new sets. Yeah, you might chase the new legends to build new decks, but then what? Most cards that would fill the deck of these new legends are from very very old collections. Azor the first Judge? Isochron Scepter + Orim's Chant in it! But hey, there isn't any scepter or chant in the recent sets, so I have to go and buy or trade singles from very old products.
That to me is a clear drawback of having an 'established' kitchen table format where most staples and cards people like are... well... established! They slowly suck away from the recent sets. Even if you have tons of commander decks, you probably wouldn't look for more than 10~15 new cards from a set to get, and you just need one copy of each! Why buy a box? Buy singles and it is fine.
My point being two-fold: 1) a new player now has to choose in what game he wants to play - 60-constructed or 99-singleton. After the initial investment, this new player probably will stick with the format. The more commander grows, the more it creates a feedback loop that makes new players join 99-singleton. 2) Commander, being an eternal format with a defined banlist and support, has an established number of staples that mostly come from the old sets of Magic. That takes the incentive out of buying new product, since the few cards you might want you buy in singles (to a much smaller proportion than a standard player would).
Notice that the second point applies to essentially any eternal format, including modern and legacy, but Wizards is trying to slowly suffocate legacy and has already started to try and address this problem with modern by making the Modern Masters product. I think they see the same problem with the Commander Crowd, and while the pre-con decks are a way for them to profit off of that, Eternal Masters and Iconic Masters are probably their real attempts to cater to that very Commander Crowd that doesn't buy into standard anymore. I'm just not sure that 'special' sets with a greater number of staples that cater to a completely different way of playing Magic is a sustainable business model to their main style of game.
Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
I have been playing commander nonstop since 2010. I was at the time I started playing commander playing standard. In the time since then I have stopped and restarted playing standard and then stopped again all of which were due to my inability to play standard for each time I quit the format. I have stayed strong with commander when I otherwise might have quit playing magic entirely in those two times.
For me, I think the fact that I still play commander is the thing that keeps me going on this game. My interest in standard and modern comes and goes but I keep playing this game because of commander. In some cases because I play commander I become aware of new decks in standard / modern that might possibly spur me to buy into those.
I can see where you are coming from though. I do think that some of the middle ground between casual and sanctioned formats has been taken up by commander potentially. I think those who enjoy going to FNM and major events will still do that though regardless of commander.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Wizards is trying to slowly suffocate legacy and has already started to try and address this problem with modern by making the Modern Masters product.
WotC are not trying to stifle Legacy! Seriously this is out to lunch.
Eternal Masters is not just for EDH! Why do you think they reprinted Karakas if not for Legacy? In fact 2016 was a Christmas year for Legacy D&T players - getting new toys from both Standard and Supplementary products on top of the relevant reprints.
WotC has also banned an unpopular card resulting in a wide open meta and a lot of rejuvenated interest.
And then there is the increased tournament support wherein Legacy will be a pro tour event for the first time in, what, ten years?
WotC are doing anything but trying to stifle Legacy. What in god's name makes you believe that they are?
I think it killed Legacy with all the strange cards that came out specifically made for Commander but legal in Legacy and Vintage. TNN, Leovold, Toxic Deluge, Council's Judgment, Recruiter of the Guard
Many of us believe, and WotC has openly stated, that they print cards in supplementary sets that are specifically intended for Legacy. Much like they print EDH relevant cards in Standard.
As for cards like Leovold and TNN, these guys have had less impact on the format than some of the cards that came out of Standard (Delver and DRS come to mind).
It's arguably a good thing that WotC prints cards that are powerful enough to impact Legacy. Legacy players like new toys too, you know.
Also, Toxic Deluge hurting Legacy? For real? Apart from the card hardly seeing much play, please realise that Wrath of God and Damnation are garbage in Legacy. Legacy needs better sweepers to keep up with power creep we've been seeing in creatures for so many years. If it weren't for Terminus, Legacy wouldn't even have a real control deck - only grindier midrange decks like Czech and Stoneblade.
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
On topic, the declining interest in 60 card casual is surely hurting Standard. But any collateral damage that EDH inflicts on Standard is likely offset by the popularity of EDH itself. In other words, EDH is carrying MTG as much as it is killing it.
Look, there are so many reasons why magic is hurting and Commander might have a little bit to do with it, but lets be honest: WotC has made many bad chices over the last 10 years that has taken us down this path.
1) Watch The Professor and his Tolarian Community College video about Planeswalker Points and getting rid of the old DCI system. Watch as he talks about removing the player rewards cards, and how terrible FNM has become.
2) Rudy from Alpha Investments talks about the poor card quality we have seen, going as far as the curled non-foil cards from Iconic Masters. He also has a video where some Chinese counterfeit cards which actually look better than real cards from WotC. Cards which have clear sharp text and more vivid art... and are not curled up.
3) The multiple emergency banning of cards, including cards which really are not that strong in standard and modern has hurt customer confidence.
4) The Magic Man Sam has talked about the backlash of Wizards getting rid of the Magic Invitationals and the cards created as a result. Some of the games most iconic cards come from that program. Shadowmage Infiltrator was once a $20 rare that has fallen flat, but will always be remembered. Dark Confidant, Snapcaster, Sad Robot and so forth.
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This is all off the top of my head.
I started in 2005 and magic seemed like this amazing sustainable game with a great company and a great community. They only thing that has changed is the company.
At every opportunity, they have pulled out of and dumped their best programs for supporting their players, and they have now suffered a 40% decline in the player base. What a shock!!! (sarcasm)
Who wants to go to FNM to get a double sided foil token? I personally don't even like foils, but back in the day I was able to win them and flip them for something of value to me. heck, when I was playing, we had things like Cabal Coffers, Lightning Grieves, Remand, and Thirst for Knowledge. Eventually they started giving out garbage commons and eventually cut it completely. Why even go? Why buy packs?
I would much rather save money, buy singles to improve my commander decks and buy into the new Commander 2018 decks whenever they come out. I have loved the 2013-2017 sets. I got Esper and Bant in 2013, mono black and Mono blue in 2014, Blue Red and Black Green in 2015, Red Esper and the Group Hug deck (though I wish I had gotten Saskia instead in hindsight) in 2016, and this year I have the Vampires while my wife has cats and Wizards and my best friend got the Dragons deck. I expect we will fall in love with the 2018 decks as well.
Despite having tried it, competitive magic was never something I ever really enjoied anyway. This is a fun game. I don't like the stress of competitive events. I can play commander for 5 straight hours, but if i have to travel to an event, play with a timer where I have to manage bathroom breaks and every turn has stress/pressure to not make mistakes because money and prizes are on the line... no thank you. Especially when I don't even care about the prizes. I much prefer showing up on my time to sit down and sling spells with friends at an LGS, or more importantly throw down at the kitchen table on the weekends.
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I think if you would ask this someone runmning a LGS, they would not agree at all. Having a magnet for casual magic like commander playgroups is essential for stores to aquire new customers. Previous posters have already touched on the importance of casual players when it comnes to buying sealed product. And lastly, a healthy casual format with a solid player base is a great respite for people frustrated from a particular competitive format. Time and again people retire from some competitive format to later pick it up again, but most commander players are here to stay and keep the excitement alive.
There is also the very real question of if some of the digital TCG have affected formats like standard and modern. Hearthstone is but one of many online options to be able to sit down and play a constructed format whenever you want. I would argue that most people would prefer the convenience of being able to play whenever and however much they want over needing to dedicate time to FNM.
Most of the online TCG options have really popped up in more recent years and I feel like Hearthstone kind of showed the room for such a thing. The cost of wizard's standard is not a great pricing structure either when compared with some of these digital options where you might get free and or cheaper packs.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
What do you mean when you say killing magic? If by that you mean killing competitive formats and FNM's, you may have a point. It could very well be hurting those areas, but that is not even close to the same thing as "killing magic". How does dissuading people from moving into competitive because they'd rather play commander hurt magic as a whole? They're still playing and buying cards. Popularity of competitive formats doesn't equal popularity of magic or WotC's bottom line or at least I'd like to hear you argument for why it is if you think so. If anything, having an extremely popular format should be a good thing for WotC correct? Printing cards specifically for commander isn't an indication that magic is dying, it just shows Wizards knows how popular the format is and realize it is a sound financial decision to print cards for it that will be desired. I mean, there is something to all these people saying they wouldn't play magic if it wasn't for commander (myself included). And as far as I can tell commander is becoming more and more popular. To say the people playing commander would automatically be playing standard or table top if commander didn't exist is not an assumption we should be making.
What about commander being its own worst enemy? EDH started as a grassroots movement in order to play with cards that were not used, to avoid the samey decks prevalent in stores and tournaments, wanting to be just a casual format.
WOTC takes notice and decides to support them with a product called Commander, however each iteration of this product has led to more must-have cards and while staples are not an inherently bad thing they do shape the landscape of what is played. During 2017 I had visited twenty different local game stores across several states and I had encountered no players running Generals/Commanders that were Pre-Original Mirrodin aside from what I would bring and the occasional Sliver Queen deck that would also be there. Decks tended to be Scars of Mirrodin onward aside from those like Sharuum the Hegemon, Doran, the Siege Tower, Zur the Enchanter or Arcum Dagsson.
The environment of EDH/Commander feels like it is moving to fast like approaching a singularity. Similarly to how technology and advancements is on that same course.
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I played Magic for a long time when I was a younger, as a kitchen table player. Afterwards, I got away from the game, and when I got back, I was actually playing casually and thinking about building a deck to play in tournaments, until I was introduced to Commander.
I played Commander a lot after that. I built tons of decks and bought lots of cards. Eventually my interest for the format became just lukewarm, but I noticed something: the fact that I was introduced to Commander kept me away from spending money with any official tournaments that were not sealed format.
I've noticed this shift as a whole in the Magic community: 60-card casual was entirely overshadowed by Commander. The thing is: Commander is its own thing. You can play it casually, competitively, a mix of both, however you like. That means the "transition" from playing casually to playing competitively doesn't exist anymore as it used to.
Of course, lots of people play casually on EDH and competitive on Modern, for example. However, if you are on a regular Commander diet, you may never feel the need to port into standard, for instance. The result is that there is a rift between casual and competitive Magic that I don't think it existed before.
So, my question is: is the prevalence of Commander as a casual format killing Magic slowly? (By slowly taking away the desire from casual players to move into competitive?)
The lack of interest for standard and the printing of more cards for Commander even in regular sets seem to support this. Even if you argue that people dislike standard due to current design, matters get even worse for standard when the casual format of reference for comparison is an eternal one full of legacy staples.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
(Also known as Xenphire)
If interest in Competitive Magic is dying, I do not think EDH is the one killing it. It could be contributing, but I feel it would more likely be a symptom - if there is something perceived to be wrong with Competitive formats, then that is driving players elsewhere, or creating an invisible barrier for newer players looking at those formats.
This also counts for the "but standard sucks" commentary, I believe. People haven't liked Standard since... What? Battle for Zendikar? From what I observed, EDH really starting drawing a crowd in with the 2015 Precons, right as Standard, uhm, shat itself for lack of better terms. If people wanted to play, but found Standard lacking, here are these beat Precons for a format you can do multiplayer, conveniently on the shelves.
I got out of standard many years ago and have no desire to go back. If I was just playing legacy, which is my tournament format of choice and which I have the cards to play, I'd go out maybe once every month or two. EDH gets me in the door (or more correctly, the door of the bar attached to the LGS) on a weekly basis. Several years ago when I had fewer obligations it was getting me in the door several times a week. If I didn't have a good casual option I wouldn't be playing standard, I'd just be spending my entertainment money on other things.
That said I think more variety is basically always better. Keeping someone in the game at all is much more important, imo, than making someone go competitive from casual. And besides, even if there's no prizes on the line, there's TONS of room to grow as a magic player in commander, so it doesn't limit the strategic elements of the game at all imo. If anything it enhances them.
Personally I've never been able to get into constructed in any card game (primarily talking about mtg and hearthstone). The fact that optimal decks are discovered so quickly really kills the element of exploration that I think makes TCGs interesting, and that element is still present in commander. If commander didn't exist, I'd still probably play limited, but I wouldn't be playing standard or modern. Commander is just a totally different game, and imo has more in common with limited than constructed competitive formats. I know a lot of people who follow the same formats as I do and I don't think it's a coincidence. Does that maybe pull people away from standard? Maybe, but the existence of monopoly might pull people away from standard too.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
I can honestly see why a lot of people would go to Commander or start and never stop. There's a lot to play and explore. It can be casual or competitive. It can be cheap or expensive. There's no one true meta that rules the game. Overall, Commander just encourages you to get out there and start playing what you want, whatever that is and give you tools to do so.
However, if people prefer that to constructed, so much, then something's up with constructed. As others have said, a symptom of a bigger problem, not the problem itself.
Just my opinion.
BK'rrik Goodstuff
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URYusri Coin Flip
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BGUYarok Lands Matter
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Was it just decks with no restrictions people playing stupidly strong stuff that was banned.
Was it people just opened a box of cards and just played whatever they owned.
My kitchen table magic stuff, which I occasionally play, is ex standard, decks people played in standard years ago upgraded with new cards or people heard this standard deck was good so when it rotated out they picked it up.
1v1 or multiplayer etc.
What is kitchen table magic? wizards couldn't really design for kitchen table because it had no rules no quantifiable speed or feeling. They occasionally had cards that played better in multiplier but the cards were either failed standard cards or "cool" designs.
Commander has given structure to kitchen table magic. Now we say "well its good in commander" rather than eh "maybe in casual". Add to that the commander products are simply good products that allows WotC to sell directly to casual players rather than having to go through standard (and putting in a trash standard card in packs).
Commander is the best casual format, so I consider it kitchen table magic evolved, which is why it is out completing normal kitchen table magic.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
If Standard and Modern were the only way to play Magic, I would almost certainly stop playing. I stopped building casual 60-card decks years ago because the matchups those generate is miserable. One of the things keeping Magic alive is that there's a huge variety of ways people can play.
If you are pondering whether it's cost-effective to produce booster packs when Commander-oriented players are unlikely to consume them, consider that they started producing 100-card products specifically for this demographic and that first year was so successful, they decided to continue doing it every year. They seem to sell well despite the hefty price point and looking only at the costs of cardstock and ink, they should be more profitable for wizards despite not capable of being the bulk of the sales.
Now, Commander might be a factor in the reduction of precons for normal sets. It used to be each set would come with 4 decks around that set's themes that could entice players to buy packs to improve. I could easily see the rise of Commander competing with that product and it changed to two planeswalker-oriented decks, likely for a mix of factors.
If Commander were the only means of playing Magic, I feel like it would have a shorter lifespan.
Magic is not Standard. Magic is not Modern. Magic is not kitchen table casual. Magic is not Commander. Magic is not 60-card. Magic is not 100-card. Magic is not booster packs.
Magic is a common set of rules that all those games use with different subsets of cards. Those rules are more likely to continue to exist if there are a lot of different games using them. If the monetization/distribution needs to change, it will.
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
when i was playing i could make nice decks with cheap/overshadowed/gem cards that nobody plays, now even those have increased
so yeah commander raises the card prices and has killed 60 card casual magic
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Είμαι Άνεργος.
Grimstringer on Cockatrice, add me if you wanna
I only play edh now though, I don't have the time or money for standard anymore. /children
I do think that, in its humble begginings, commander was overall just good. New products, new options, etc. However, I feel like when constructed formats change or get bad, instead of leaving the game and waiting for it to get better, people join the commander crowd. Hey, that might be good, right? Well, maybe. If someone is entering in Magic for the first time and they see people playing essentially two different types of games (60-card constructed or 99-singleton) they have to make a choice in what to invest. Having a good commander collection might mean you don't have enough cards to even put a modern deck together. Of course, you could sell the commander cards and try modern, but would you really do that after investing so much money in commander? Finally, to build this good commander collection you don't depend on the new sets. Yeah, you might chase the new legends to build new decks, but then what? Most cards that would fill the deck of these new legends are from very very old collections. Azor the first Judge? Isochron Scepter + Orim's Chant in it! But hey, there isn't any scepter or chant in the recent sets, so I have to go and buy or trade singles from very old products.
That to me is a clear drawback of having an 'established' kitchen table format where most staples and cards people like are... well... established! They slowly suck away from the recent sets. Even if you have tons of commander decks, you probably wouldn't look for more than 10~15 new cards from a set to get, and you just need one copy of each! Why buy a box? Buy singles and it is fine.
My point being two-fold: 1) a new player now has to choose in what game he wants to play - 60-constructed or 99-singleton. After the initial investment, this new player probably will stick with the format. The more commander grows, the more it creates a feedback loop that makes new players join 99-singleton. 2) Commander, being an eternal format with a defined banlist and support, has an established number of staples that mostly come from the old sets of Magic. That takes the incentive out of buying new product, since the few cards you might want you buy in singles (to a much smaller proportion than a standard player would).
Notice that the second point applies to essentially any eternal format, including modern and legacy, but Wizards is trying to slowly suffocate legacy and has already started to try and address this problem with modern by making the Modern Masters product. I think they see the same problem with the Commander Crowd, and while the pre-con decks are a way for them to profit off of that, Eternal Masters and Iconic Masters are probably their real attempts to cater to that very Commander Crowd that doesn't buy into standard anymore. I'm just not sure that 'special' sets with a greater number of staples that cater to a completely different way of playing Magic is a sustainable business model to their main style of game.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
For me, I think the fact that I still play commander is the thing that keeps me going on this game. My interest in standard and modern comes and goes but I keep playing this game because of commander. In some cases because I play commander I become aware of new decks in standard / modern that might possibly spur me to buy into those.
I can see where you are coming from though. I do think that some of the middle ground between casual and sanctioned formats has been taken up by commander potentially. I think those who enjoy going to FNM and major events will still do that though regardless of commander.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Eternal Masters is not just for EDH! Why do you think they reprinted Karakas if not for Legacy? In fact 2016 was a Christmas year for Legacy D&T players - getting new toys from both Standard and Supplementary products on top of the relevant reprints.
WotC has also banned an unpopular card resulting in a wide open meta and a lot of rejuvenated interest.
And then there is the increased tournament support wherein Legacy will be a pro tour event for the first time in, what, ten years?
WotC are doing anything but trying to stifle Legacy. What in god's name makes you believe that they are?
Many of us believe, and WotC has openly stated, that they print cards in supplementary sets that are specifically intended for Legacy. Much like they print EDH relevant cards in Standard.
As for cards like Leovold and TNN, these guys have had less impact on the format than some of the cards that came out of Standard (Delver and DRS come to mind).
It's arguably a good thing that WotC prints cards that are powerful enough to impact Legacy. Legacy players like new toys too, you know.
Also, Toxic Deluge hurting Legacy? For real? Apart from the card hardly seeing much play, please realise that Wrath of God and Damnation are garbage in Legacy. Legacy needs better sweepers to keep up with power creep we've been seeing in creatures for so many years. If it weren't for Terminus, Legacy wouldn't even have a real control deck - only grindier midrange decks like Czech and Stoneblade.
On topic, the declining interest in 60 card casual is surely hurting Standard. But any collateral damage that EDH inflicts on Standard is likely offset by the popularity of EDH itself. In other words, EDH is carrying MTG as much as it is killing it.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
1) Watch The Professor and his Tolarian Community College video about Planeswalker Points and getting rid of the old DCI system. Watch as he talks about removing the player rewards cards, and how terrible FNM has become.
2) Rudy from Alpha Investments talks about the poor card quality we have seen, going as far as the curled non-foil cards from Iconic Masters. He also has a video where some Chinese counterfeit cards which actually look better than real cards from WotC. Cards which have clear sharp text and more vivid art... and are not curled up.
3) The multiple emergency banning of cards, including cards which really are not that strong in standard and modern has hurt customer confidence.
4) The Magic Man Sam has talked about the backlash of Wizards getting rid of the Magic Invitationals and the cards created as a result. Some of the games most iconic cards come from that program. Shadowmage Infiltrator was once a $20 rare that has fallen flat, but will always be remembered. Dark Confidant, Snapcaster, Sad Robot and so forth.
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This is all off the top of my head.
I started in 2005 and magic seemed like this amazing sustainable game with a great company and a great community. They only thing that has changed is the company.
At every opportunity, they have pulled out of and dumped their best programs for supporting their players, and they have now suffered a 40% decline in the player base. What a shock!!! (sarcasm)
Who wants to go to FNM to get a double sided foil token? I personally don't even like foils, but back in the day I was able to win them and flip them for something of value to me. heck, when I was playing, we had things like Cabal Coffers, Lightning Grieves, Remand, and Thirst for Knowledge. Eventually they started giving out garbage commons and eventually cut it completely. Why even go? Why buy packs?
I would much rather save money, buy singles to improve my commander decks and buy into the new Commander 2018 decks whenever they come out. I have loved the 2013-2017 sets. I got Esper and Bant in 2013, mono black and Mono blue in 2014, Blue Red and Black Green in 2015, Red Esper and the Group Hug deck (though I wish I had gotten Saskia instead in hindsight) in 2016, and this year I have the Vampires while my wife has cats and Wizards and my best friend got the Dragons deck. I expect we will fall in love with the 2018 decks as well.
Despite having tried it, competitive magic was never something I ever really enjoied anyway. This is a fun game. I don't like the stress of competitive events. I can play commander for 5 straight hours, but if i have to travel to an event, play with a timer where I have to manage bathroom breaks and every turn has stress/pressure to not make mistakes because money and prizes are on the line... no thank you. Especially when I don't even care about the prizes. I much prefer showing up on my time to sit down and sling spells with friends at an LGS, or more importantly throw down at the kitchen table on the weekends.
I know that I am not alone.
UR Mizzix of the Izmagnus ~~~ Build your own win-condition: Finite Spellslinging
UR Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer ~~~ We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic ~~~ A Guide to dying slowly
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose ~~~ Marchesa's undying Marionettes
RGW Mayael the Anima ~~~ All Hail the Big Chungus
GWU Chulane, Teller of Tales ~~~ Permanents Only ETB Shenanigans
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant ~~~ Sidisi's Restless Servants
WUBRG The Ur-Dragon ~~~ Dragons eat your face
Most of the online TCG options have really popped up in more recent years and I feel like Hearthstone kind of showed the room for such a thing. The cost of wizard's standard is not a great pricing structure either when compared with some of these digital options where you might get free and or cheaper packs.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
WOTC takes notice and decides to support them with a product called Commander, however each iteration of this product has led to more must-have cards and while staples are not an inherently bad thing they do shape the landscape of what is played. During 2017 I had visited twenty different local game stores across several states and I had encountered no players running Generals/Commanders that were Pre-Original Mirrodin aside from what I would bring and the occasional Sliver Queen deck that would also be there. Decks tended to be Scars of Mirrodin onward aside from those like Sharuum the Hegemon, Doran, the Siege Tower, Zur the Enchanter or Arcum Dagsson.
The environment of EDH/Commander feels like it is moving to fast like approaching a singularity. Similarly to how technology and advancements is on that same course.