I do think that EDH/Commander has failed to invoke the kind of nostalgia that most players felt about the game circa 1993/1994 while it was still in it's infancy because back then everyone was on a level playing field with no race toward the bottom.
What nostalgia are you talking about? As I illustrated earlier, at the competitive level, the best players found the best decks really fast. The rest of the casual players were sitting around having no idea what they were doing and making terrible decks out of garbage cards. How is that any different today? There are plenty of garbage decks and inexperienced casual new players who have no idea what they are doing either today.
Yeah it sucks when you play against Brian Weissman's "The Deck" or Turbo Stasis but that's the price you pay for that nostalgic feeling that isn't present in EDH/Commander. To some former Magic players it's the only desire to play anymore, EDH/Commander doesn't even come close.
Again, how is that any different today? You can still make a terrible deck to play with your friends, and then take it to a store and get dominated by good decks. What nostalgic feeling are you talking about? You sure are vague here. No real examples.
Everything about MTG nowadays has become too formulaic (...)
Again, it always has been with Inquest magazine, but shared knowledge and article took longer to spread the information around. A perfect example is the Sly deck which established the basic ratio of lands, spells and creatures for a fast aggressive burn deck that is still copied to this day.
The game is always evolving. When I started laying, "Draw-go" control was the only real way to play control for years. only in more recent times has that style completely died and been replaced with "tap out control," which is thanks to better cards being made. Cards with can take an active role in control instead of just a passive one. Blue Black Faeries was the start, but it certainly set the new standard of that style of play, where you can cast game changing creatures and take active control of games. Before faeiries, Sea Stompy was toying with the idea, but never took over Standard. The seed had been planted though and it grew from there. The game is always evolving and generally getting better. Are you nostalgic for the days of Ebony Rhino? I don't get it.
(...)with illustrations becoming too "politically correct"(...)
I can ONLY assume you mean cards like from alpha showing a pentagram, with its bondage faerie, and how magic got rid of demons and replaced them with horrors oops demons were brought back over 15 years ago. Maybe you are talking about how there are finally gay and transgender characters? If so, then you are coming off as bigoted, which I will happily assume you are not, as that would be the dumbest thing to complain about and make everything else you say irrelevant.
(...)where the "Magic" that a lot of players and collectors felt 25 years ago is dead and gone.
You really had ought to read more about resonance and the design philosophy from Magic 2010 onward. In a nutshell, when the first sets came out, they had a ot of resonance. Then over the years, with the creation of brand specific intellectual property (IP), that resonance was lost. Everyone knows what an angel, vampire, demon, dragon, elf, goblin, lightning bolt, fireball, and so forth are. When you hold one of those iconic cards, without even knowing the rules, you have certain expectations as to what they will do in game. Howeve,r what is a new player to the game going to think when they open a pack of New Phyrexia going to think? What is a Phyrexian? I have never heard of one of those outside of magic.
You see, they can get away with it with Eldrazi as cosmic eldritch horrors stolen from HP Lovecraft, Unicron fro transformers, Galactus from Marvel Comics, and so forth. Even the Titans from Greek myth. Old gods who have returned and you are but an insignificant ant to them.
The point being, that magic over the last 9 years or so has made a big push to return resonance to the game, and that you couldn't be further from the truth. Be it Innistrad and out return, Ahmanket's Egypt theme, Khans/Dragons of Tarkir, and so forth. The sets ooze story and resonance more than any sets since maybe Arabian Knights.
I'm sure Sheldon Menery had good intentions to revive whatever creative spark was left from MTG in order to help cure the monotony of netdeckers ruining creative thinking when it comes to deck building but at the end of the day his format isn't as widely respected as some people like to believe. It's becoming too competitive to the point for all the reasons why nobody wants to break into Legacy and Vintage. Old School 1993/1994 Magic may be too expensive due to how scarce the cards are with all the Reserved List staples but it still beats the kind of high variance you'd get from EDH/Commander where the low variance aspect isn't as toxic as the current environment for Standard, Modern, and Legacy.
You are no longer complaining about commander. You have become the "Old man yells at cloud" joke in the Simpsons at this point. You are just complaining about how you see magic as a whole,and you are demonstrably wrong. Comically wrong. "I can write a 10 page essay showing you how wrong you are but don't want to waste my time because it isn't worth it" kind of wrong.
There's an argument as to whether or not If Old School 1993/1994 Magic is the best place to put your time, money, and effort into compared to EDH/Commander. (...) Even If you're a newcomer that missed the boat on Old School Magic back when it was played 25 years ago you can still print off proxies with an ink jet printer.
No, there isn't. If I cared enough, i would ask to meet you on Magic Workstation to play old school 40 card 1993 magic with you and just win turn one all the time while you can play lands and Savannah lions or what ever casual jank you want to play and then you can run away with some excuse or complaint. Otherwise, you will also play a competitive turn 1 win combo deck and it comes down to who wins the coin flip, and we really might as well not even play magic... or we can use a ban list. oops, now we are going down the slippery slope that real magic went down that led us to today.
Maybe you want to play 60 card 4x copy magic? I will still beat you turn one every game with power 9 + Demonic tutor, channel, fireball, and so forth. Maybe we still need a ban or restricted list.
Shall I continue? Magic was far more broken back then that it is today.
You are tugging at the heart strings of nostalgia for a day when you and your friends played with bad cards and didn't know any better. That has nothing to do with the era of magic, but your own ignorance. Once you open Pandora's box of knowledge, there is no closing it.
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When it comes to commander, the lack of variance is the result of tutors. the ability to consistently get what you want from your deck is what makes games repetitive and streamlined. If you want to play commander with higher variance, then just start a group where the best tutors are frowned upon and everyone agrees to play without them. After all, when you can't go find anything you want in a 99 card singleton deck and are at the mercy of what you draw, then redundancy becomes king, and still some of the variance vanishes because you have percentages of similar effects with different names, and some being more powerful than others.
That is the nature of this game. You cannot change that, no matter how much fist waving at the sky you want to do about these darned kids and their elder dragons and their highlanders.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
The game has also become increasingly popular, meaning that they have to marginalize the products or formats that sell. Commander/EDH moves products which means that it hits stores like targets which draw people in. They do have duel decks and all that, but I don't think it's as appealing. LGS where I live don't have casual 60 card night, because it's just called 'standard' lol. LGSs need to support it more or else will eventually fade.
Computer generated art? What does political correctness have to do with digital painting? My favourite art is Bird Maiden but I just don't see how Dreamcaller Siren is a politically correct illustration just because it uses modern art techniques. It this just a way of saying you don't like the stricter style guides?
I've got nothing against the stricter style guides when it's got more to do with modern day cards not having that old feel to them anymore. Today's card illustrations have become less abstract by focusing too much on realism where it doesn't capture one's sense of imagination anymore. I personally don't believe that there's been any sort of political correctness throughout the evolution of Magic card illustrations when I was really going off of someone's opinion on YouTube where they felt that the change was negative to how they perceived what the game went through over the last 25 years. I should've been more straightforward on that and I apologize.
I think what really is killing magic are those collectors who played Magic: The investment over Magic: The Gathering....
They've been using MTG as a 401k retirement plan in the happenstance that they can sell off their Reserved List collections before they're worth pennies on the dollar from whoever buys out Wizards of the Coast.
What nostalgia are you talking about? As I illustrated earlier, at the competitive level, the best players found the best decks really fast. The rest of the casual players were sitting around having no idea what they were doing and making terrible decks out of garbage cards. How is that any different today? There are plenty of garbage decks and inexperienced casual new players who have no idea what they are doing either today.
The best players from the past found the best decks really fast because they were willing to innovate as opposed to today's players who would rather net deck to stay ahead of the competition since it's less time consuming while helping them get a better understanding of card ratios and consistency. More casual players nowadays have a much easier time innovating a deck for EDH/Commander as opposed to a 60 card Kitchen Table Casual deck where they're likely to get criticized over format legality for running specific cards. I've actually had that happen to me once when I was running Lotus Petal in a Dragonstorm/Epic Experiment combo deck I once ran when the person thought I was playing Modern instead of Legacy.
(...)with illustrations becoming too "politically correct"(...)
I can ONLY assume you mean cards like from alpha showing a pentagram, with its bondage faerie, and how magic got rid of demons and replaced them with horrors oops demons were brought back over 15 years ago. Maybe you are talking about how there are finally gay and transgender characters? If so, then you are coming off as bigoted, which I will happily assume you are not, as that would be the dumbest thing to complain about and make everything else you say irrelevant.
Don't get the wrong idea I wasn't trying to come off as being bigoted.
There's an argument as to whether or not If Old School 1993/1994 Magic is the best place to put your time, money, and effort into compared to EDH/Commander. (...) Even If you're a newcomer that missed the boat on Old School Magic back when it was played 25 years ago you can still print off proxies with an ink jet printer.
No, there isn't. If I cared enough, i would ask to meet you on Magic Workstation to play old school 40 card 1993 magic with you and just win turn one all the time while you can play lands and Savannah Lions or what ever casual jank you want to play and then you can run away with some excuse or complaint. Otherwise, you will also play a competitive turn 1 win combo deck and it comes down to who wins the coin flip, and we really might as well not even play magic... or we can use a ban list. oops, now we are going down the slippery slope that real magic went down that led us to today.
Maybe you want to play 60 card 4x copy magic? I will still beat you turn one every game with Power 9 + Demonic Tutor, Channel, Fireball, and so forth. Maybe we still need a ban or restricted list.
Shall I continue? Magic was far more broken back then that it is today.
You are tugging at the heart strings of nostalgia for a day when you and your friends played with bad cards and didn't know any better. That has nothing to do with the era of magic, but your own ignorance. Once you open Pandora's box of knowledge, there is no closing it.
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When it comes to commander, the lack of variance is the result of tutors. the ability to consistently get what you want from your deck is what makes games repetitive and streamlined. If you want to play commander with higher variance, then just start a group where the best tutors are frowned upon and everyone agrees to play without them. After all, when you can't go find anything you want in a 99 card singleton deck and are at the mercy of what you draw, then redundancy becomes king, and still some of the variance vanishes because you have percentages of similar effects with different names, and some being more powerful than others.
That is the nature of this game. You cannot change that, no matter how much fist waving at the sky you want to do about these darned kids and their elder dragons and their highlanders.
Fair enough. I guess a part of me was really curious to see what Old School 1993/1994 Magic was like when Edwin the Magic Engineer posted a YouTube video saying that it's the best format in the game. Truth be told I was in 4th grade at the age of 10-11 when MTG debuted as I only read about it in advertisements from collecting video game magazines at a time when I mainly played Retro Video Games. Yu-Gi-Oh! was my gateway into Trading Card Games/Collectible Card Games until I started playing MTG when 8th Edition was the latest Core Set with Psychatog and Mono Red Goblins being my first entry decks into the game until I found my calling with Mono Green Elves. I eventually tore the deck apart because it got too annoying at my locals.
The game has also become increasingly popular, meaning that they have to marginalize the products or formats that sell. Commander/EDH moves products which means that it hits stores like targets which draw people in. They do have duel decks and all that, but I don't think it's as appealing. LGS where I live don't have casual 60 card night, because it's just called 'standard' lol. LGSs need to support it more or else will eventually fade.
Drawing players away from local game stores just so that they can buy MTG products at big box retailers like Walmart, Target, and Amazon only takes away from growing player turnout for EDH/Commander when the format itself is too dependent on the success of Standard and Modern in order to keep these local game stores from going out of business. The only way to stay in business is through voluntary support for other Trading Card Games/Collectible Card Games aside from MTG. It doesn't make any sense to me why players would want to divert their physical product in favor of digital when there's no direct social interactivity that fulfills a sense of instant gratification that players are hoping to get from playing MTG Arena or Hearthstone that's completely non-existent.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
What nostalgia are you talking about? As I illustrated earlier, at the competitive level, the best players found the best decks really fast. The rest of the casual players were sitting around having no idea what they were doing and making terrible decks out of garbage cards. How is that any different today? There are plenty of garbage decks and inexperienced casual new players who have no idea what they are doing either today.
The best players from the past found the best decks really fast because they were willing to innovate as opposed to today's players who would rather net deck to stay ahead of the competition since it's less time consuming while helping them get a better understanding of card ratios and consistency. More casual players nowadays have a much easier time innovating a deck for EDH/Commander as opposed to a 60 card Kitchen Table Casual deck where they're likely to get criticized over format legality for running specific cards. I've actually had that happen to me once when I was running Lotus Petal in a Dragonstorm/Epic Experiment combo deck I once ran when the person thought I was playing Modern instead of Legacy.
I'm a little confused here. Drain Life was saying that the best players find the best decks regardless of era; you argue that was only true in the past and today everybody netdecks. Where do you think that netdecks come from? They're not, like, spontaneously generated by the internet. They are the result of top players innovating, taking their decks to tournaments, and then being refined through more innovation based on results and perceived metagames. In other words, like Drain Life said, exactly how it always has been.
As for the anecdote, that sounds more like a communication breakdown, maybe on your part, maybe on your opponent's part, than any fundamental problem with the game.
Perhaps the biggest reason people get upset after a game ends quickly isn't because they're poor sports. It's because they feel slighted. When players sit down to enjoy a game of Commander, they usually have an idea about what kind of a game they would like to create. For some players, it's a ruthless, combo-infested environment. For others, it's a grinding five-hour escapade. Regardless of what someone's looking for, when the interests of one player don't align with the interests of their opponents, people tend to get salty. People tend to feel as though they've had their time wasted because the game they sat down to play was not the kind of game they thought they signed up for. This is especially evident when one person ends the game as quickly as possible. It isn't that quick victories are wrong. It's that Commander isn't advertised as a competitive format. It's intended to be a beer and pretzels format. As such, players typically don't expect to walk into those sorts of games without warning, and those who do are frequently miffed as a result. It isn't that they're upset the game ended. They know all games must come to an end sometime. It's just they're upset about how the game ended.
It's ironic considering that MTG was originally intended to be something that was supposed to be quick and fun that people can play between games and at gaming conventions as it was never originally intended to replace D&D because that was the reason why Peter Adkison formed Wizards of the Coast before they were bought out by Hasbro. Nobody foresaw the kind of impact MTG would have to the point where there would be less people playing D&D and other Role-Playing Games.
Commander isn't advertised as a competitive format when the problem is that it's become the only viable format for most players to turn to due to the toxicity of Standard, Modern, and Legacy. As an end result, it ends up hurting all these other formats that are needed to drive growth for local game stores in order to stay in business so that players actually have a venue to play Commander. Casual players need to understand that Competitive players are the lifeblood of MTG, they are what drives Standard and Modern in order to make it possible for Casual players to play Commander.
I consider myself to be a competent Magic player, but I deliberately play with a low-powered deck. That isn't something I do because of new players, and it certainly isn't something I do because I'm on a budget. Hell, my deck probably totals to about one and a half grand. The reason I play with a low-powered deck is because the games of Commander I'm trying to create don't involve mega powerful cards. The games I find most enjoyable are the ones where players are engaged in a boxing match instead of a shootout. That's the norm for Commander, the sort of games the Commander Rules Committee encourage, and the sort of games players expect out of playing Commander.
It's really a matter of instant gratification when it comes to deck building philosophy, do you choose to deliberately play with a low-powered deck at the expense of having less fun than your opponent(s) or do you choose to deliberately play with a high-powered deck in order to get more enjoyment out of Commander games than your opponent(s)? While the latter may seem like a game of collusion (or Solitaire If it's Duel Commander) often times it's increasingly difficult to find the right balance.
Most players often base their decks' strategy off of their Commander's abilities in mind without trying to base these decks off of flavor alone because it's the easiest way to establish a foundation for what kind of Commander decks' they're trying to build. Vanilla Commanders are hard to build around unless you're able to add a flavor sub-theme to them, focus on Glorious Anthem abilities, or go Tribal. I do think that trying to build a Commander deck based on flavor alone can get in the way of what your Commander is wanting to accomplish even If it tends to go against the interests of your own playgroups.
I'm a little confused here. Drain Life was saying that the best players find the best decks regardless of era; you argue that was only true in the past and today everybody netdecks. Where do you think that netdecks come from? They're not, like, spontaneously generated by the internet. They are the result of top players innovating, taking their decks to tournaments, and then being refined through more innovation based on results and perceived metagames. In other words, like Drain Life said, exactly how it always has been.
As for the anecdote, that sounds more like a communication breakdown, maybe on your part, maybe on your opponent's part, than any fundamental problem with the game.
I do think that there's this perceived notion that every competitive player netdecks nowadays when that's not always the case when I think the real issue here is that there's some competitive players who aren't willing to innovate without relying on the Internet to get better. Patrick Chapin once said, "If you don't brew you have no heart, If you don't netdeck you have no brains."
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Commander is the best entry point for a new player after learning the basic rules of the game, especially if they have supportive friends who don't throw them into the deep end with crazy interactions. An out-of-the-box precon commander deck is a good price point for new players to get into a non-rotating format and start playing games. The decks generally appreciate in value and can be improved with singles or cards found in draft or sealed, which becomes something more accessible after learning the how to identify good cards. Instead of "getting into magic" by just being thrown into an experienced draft pod, or having to buy into a $200-$1200 constructed deck, commander is the best entry level product ever produced.
I think what really is killing magic are those collectors who played Magic: The investment over Magic: The Gathering....
They've been using MTG as a 401k retirement plan in the happenstance that they can sell off their Reserved List collections before they're worth pennies on the dollar from whoever buys out Wizards of the Coast.
I know why..I just don't like it and in fact IMO those people have done more harm than good to the game.
It's really a matter of instant gratification when it comes to deck building philosophy, do you choose to deliberately play with a low-powered deck at the expense of having less fun than your opponent(s) or do you choose to deliberately play with a high-powered deck in order to get more enjoyment out of Commander games than your opponent(s)?
I don't think this is true at all. You can play a lower powered deck and have more fun than your opponents, and you can play a higher powered one and have no fun. Having everyone hate you generally isn't fun. And winning with the weakest deck at the table is awesome.
Ofc if you're the only precon at a table of fast combo decks then sure, you probably won't have much fun, but as long as you're fairly close in power level multiplayer games tend to regulate themselves a fair bit. I don't think the balance is difficult to achieve at all, so long as you have some familiarity with the meta.
Standard is less popular because it is not as exciting or engaging as it once was. Lots of people would rather just play Commander or Modern. Can't blame them. Standard just feels weird, relative to other formats.
Commander isn't advertised as a competitive format when the problem is that it's become the only viable format for most players to turn to due to the toxicity of Standard, Modern, and Legacy. As an end result, it ends up hurting all these other formats that are needed to drive growth for local game stores in order to stay in business so that players actually have a venue to play Commander. Casual players need to understand that Competitive players are the lifeblood of MTG, they are what drives Standard and Modern in order to make it possible for Casual players to play Commander.
I'm pretty sure you have this backwards. Virtually everything that I've read online from LGS owners and WotC employees suggests that casual players are more of a sustaining force than competitive players. On the overall game side, there were somewhere between 12-20 million MtG players as of several years ago, and somewhere in the neighborhood of 500k DCI numbers (can find sources if anyone is interested - there's some guesswork and extrapolation involved). The vast majority of magic players aren't competitive enough to even go to FNM and there's a significant population who don't go to the LGS. I'd be very surprised if there were enough competitive players buying new product, either directly or via secondary sellers, to cover R&D, production, and distribution costs no matter how good constructed formats are. On the LGS side, the items where there's more money being made are sealed products, supplies, and non-MtG items like snacks and drinks. Margins on singles and constructed events are small. EDH players can contribute just as much to a store's livelihood as competitive players, because they're as interested in the higher margin goods as any of the constructed players. Probably more so, with the regular release of EDH precons.
Even getting past all that, EDH players don't need an LGS to play. It makes it easier to find players, especially if you don't have an established group, and it makes it easier to decide a location for some groups, but there's not any particular incentive to play at a shop much of the time. My group usually plays in a bar. We've also played in houses/apartments, restaurants, and a hospital. I can't tell you the last time I saw a constructed event outside of an LGS or large space reserved for that purpose. If either group is subsidizing the other, it's casual players propping up competitive players.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that both competitive and casual help to support wotc (and by extension, each other)?
All the info I see says that singles and packaged product are both profitable, but different stores do better with different things (although I welcome more detailed info, and if I remember I might ask my LGS owner). Personally I feel like I blow a lot of money on drafts relative to anything I see constructed players spending, but then I don't buy any singles from my LGSs as they don't usually have the selection I need (I do usually buy my sleeves from them, though, so between that and the drafts I think I do my patriotic duty).
Some interesting perspectives have been shared here. I like the review of the 'discussion thus far', presented by onering, and the point of DirkGently that Commander captures best the aspect of brewing and innovation that was suppose to be inherent to TCGs.
Just to reiterate - my initial argument started with the premise that Commander removed 60-card casual from the scene. That had two consequences:
1) it made people who played casual less interest in constructed formats by virtue of
(i) the fact that it was harder to port into 60-card constructed (a singleton collection makes it harder to go to 4-card each collection) and
(ii) 60-card is, essentially, a different game from 99 singleton + commander, even if you play commander 1v1
2) it created a feedback loop wherein people who play commander want newcomers to the game to also play commander, essentially 'stealing' players that could otherwise play 60-card magic.
I'm not saying that any of this above is a statement of fact, it is just a hypothesis.
People here countered my arguments by saying that Commander has positives effects by acting as a safety net that keeps people interested in Magic when they would otherwise leave. These same people also buy cards and they may call other people to play with them. Overall then, it becomes difficult to determine if the sales of new sets and the number of new players is being negatively or positively impacted by the existence of Commander.
I will add now a new consequence to my premise that only now just occurred to me:
Commander may be damaging Magic by lessening the pressure that players make on 60-card constructed formats.
I will explain:
If and when standard gets bad, people move to commander to play instead of abandoning the game or heavily criticizing WoTC. That might be problematic. The fact that frustrated players with the flagship format of Magic have a escape valve in commander means they won't try to pressure and criticize WoTC to make the company change things for the better. It is easier to just shrug at standard and play commander. However, since you didn't LEAVE the game, WoTC thinks its doing everything alright, even though their main format might be failing.
You may argue that "but wouldn't modern and legacy have the same effect?" Yes, but only to a certain extent, because the barrier to buy into these formats is huge. You can build a very cheap commander deck and still have fun with your friends. Very few budget decks in modern and legacy can compete at a local level, and basically none can compete at greater levels of play. Therefore, Commander is a cheap escape valve, which is important. On the long run though, this might be damaging: the lesser pressure applied to have a standard of greater quality might be compounding over the years, to the point where WoTC gets so off the mark with what 60-card constructed should be that people just don't wanna play it anymore, and the game collapses. Note, for instance, that the problem of netdecking that DirkGently pointed out is much smaller if you have a diverse meta, where people can brew to try to brawl with some decks and pray to ignore the others, but they can't ignore the main decks if there are just 2 or 3 of them.
So, what do you guys think of this possibility?
Its far worse then that, Commander is the gateway to Legacy. Commander allows you to have a taiste of some of the most powerful cards that are around. Manadrain, Sol Ring, Duel lands, Fetch lands, Sol Lands, Mass land destruction, Mass creature desturction,Stp, PTE, FoF, Mana rocks, skullclamp and honest god combo. No matter what the standard people tell you, people LIKE playing good cards. People like playing powerful cards. After someone has sunk their teeth in to EDH sorry my age is showing Commander powerful cards, gotten used to that smooth mana, That powerful removal, The good discard and land destruction. People don't want to go back to Shock and Murder when Doomblade and lighting bolt are on the docket. Wizards also printed them in mass The only good time they have printed a GOOD precon was Commander precons, Sol ring used to be hard to find(not rarity but actuly supply side) now they are flooded and they did this with LOTS of format staples. Basically they did with Commander what they SHOULD have done with Modern. I have noticed at least in my area that as commander grows so too does legacy. These people don't go back to T2 becuase they have had a taiste of good cards. Cards that standard won't give them. Mostly Commander, Legacy/draft and Modern in that order of popularity.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that both competitive and casual help to support wotc (and by extension, each other)?
All the info I see says that singles and packaged product are both profitable, but different stores do better with different things (although I welcome more detailed info, and if I remember I might ask my LGS owner). Personally I feel like I blow a lot of money on drafts relative to anything I see constructed players spending, but then I don't buy any singles from my LGSs as they don't usually have the selection I need (I do usually buy my sleeves from them, though, so between that and the drafts I think I do my patriotic duty).
Competitive play, particularly limited, definitely supports WotC and LGSs as well. Cards are still designed for them, someone is still opening packs for the singles they buy, and they're still buying other products at the LGS. My point was more that they're a smaller portion of the MtG playerbase and don't necessarily spend proportionally more than casual players. I feel that the segment of the MtG population that's willing to go online and discuss the game on a forum is going to overemphasize the importance of it (this entire thread is predicated on the idea that the game is dead if people don't play competitively) so it's worth trying to be a casual voice in the discussion. Statements like "Competitive players are the lifeblood of MTG, they are what drives Standard and Modern in order to make it possible for Casual players to play Commander" are elitist and incorrect no matter which way you slice it. Virtually no one starts as a competitive player. Casual players manage to play the game just fine without any competitive influence.
On margins, you can get a rough estimate by looking at buying and selling prices online. Grabbing the format staples for standard from mtggoldfish and looking at TCGplayer market buy/sell prices, average margin in USD of the top 10 cards in standard is $1.25, or 142.7%. If you pull out the commons that most players can reasonably be assumed to have (Negate and Duress) to make it a more accurate picture, those numbers are $1.54 and 73.1%. Highest margin is $4.37 for The Scarab God, lowest is $0.31 for Bomat Courier. For constructed events, the only one I go to on an even semi-regular basis is a legacy weekly that pays out 100% of entry fees in store credit (so margins for the event are just those of everything else in store, though it acts a lot like an interest free loan in many cases). I doubt events with less generous payouts are making much more than $1-2/head, or they're likely to have trouble drawing enough of a crowd to make it worth it. Compare that to water, soda, chips, or candy all of which can easily be purchased in bulk on the order of a few USD per dozen or less and sold individually for $0.75-1.00, a profit of $0.50-0.75 (2-300%). Boxes are sold by distributors for somewhere in the $70-80 range, then resold whole for $90-100+ or pieced into packs with MSRP $4 ($144 total, $126 at $3.50 a pack - still $46 profit). Selling a case of water or a box of loose packs arguably makes as much as someone coming in and buying a standard deck complete if you didn't open boxes for the singles, and I know a lot more people who are willing to buy a bottle or two of water each time they play than I do buying full decks in a single purchase. I'm sure there are outliers who do very well on large singles sales. I suspect the majority are relying on high volumes of small sales of a variety of products.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
Even getting past all that, EDH players don't need an LGS to play. It makes it easier to find players, especially if you don't have an established group, and it makes it easier to decide a location for some groups, but there's not any particular incentive to play at a shop much of the time. My group usually plays in a bar. We've also played in houses/apartments, restaurants, and a hospital. I can't tell you the last time I saw a constructed event outside of an LGS or large space reserved for that purpose. If either group is subsidizing the other, it's casual players propping up competitive players.
The EDH players you're referring to that don't need an LGS to play are those that are looking for excuses to avoid going to an LGS to play altogether by sitting at home and playing video games regardless If said LGS community is toxic or welcoming. To them they feel self-entitled to the point where they don't want to feel like they're being pressured into lowering their own standards just to have a good time when the reality is that they aren't being pressured at all. Today's society has made them more anti-social and misanthropic to the point where they sit around with decks but choose not to play them due to peer pressure.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
The EDH players you're referring to that don't need an LGS to play are those that are looking for excuses to avoid going to an LGS to play altogether by sitting at home and playing video games regardless If said LGS community is toxic or welcoming. To them they feel self-entitled to the point where they don't want to feel like they're being pressured into lowering their own standards just to have a good time when the reality is that they aren't being pressured at all. Today's society has made them more anti-social and misanthropic to the point where they sit around with decks but choose not to play them due to peer pressure.
That's reading a lot into enjoying the option to have a beer while playing EDH.
Why is an LGS any better for an EDH game than a kitchen table, a restaurant, or a break room? LGSs certainly offer something to a segment of the community, but they are not the exclusive option for casual play. I honestly have no idea where you're getting this idea that people who don't play at LGSs are antisocial misanthropes and I'm equally confused as to what "lowering their own standards" refers to.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
Even getting past all that, EDH players don't need an LGS to play. It makes it easier to find players, especially if you don't have an established group, and it makes it easier to decide a location for some groups, but there's not any particular incentive to play at a shop much of the time. My group usually plays in a bar. We've also played in houses/apartments, restaurants, and a hospital. I can't tell you the last time I saw a constructed event outside of an LGS or large space reserved for that purpose. If either group is subsidizing the other, it's casual players propping up competitive players.
The EDH players you're referring to that don't need an LGS to play are those that are looking for excuses to avoid going to an LGS to play altogether by sitting at home and playing video games regardless If said LGS community is toxic or welcoming. To them they feel self-entitled to the point where they don't want to feel like they're being pressured into lowering their own standards just to have a good time when the reality is that they aren't being pressured at all. Today's society has made them more anti-social and misanthropic to the point where they sit around with decks but choose not to play them due to peer pressure.
The amount of gross assumptions in this post is astounding. Not to mention the irony of seeing someone accusing others of being maladjusted, elitist and self-entited because not everyone enjoys melodramatic, judgmental people like the guy I'm quoting from above - they would rather enjoy the company of friends at home than play guys like this at the game store. "These guys are all social rejects. Let me give you an example of why they stay at home, but it's their fault." I think I could overdose on the sheer irony of this post.
P.S. - It's a little embarrassing that people actually gave this guy's thread enough thought for this to get to Page 6.
The EDH players you're referring to that don't need an LGS to play are those that are looking for excuses to avoid going to an LGS to play altogether by sitting at home and playing video games regardless If said LGS community is toxic or welcoming. To them they feel self-entitled to the point where they don't want to feel like they're being pressured into lowering their own standards just to have a good time when the reality is that they aren't being pressured at all. Today's society has made them more anti-social and misanthropic to the point where they sit around with decks but choose not to play them due to peer pressure.
You gotta be kidding me. Hands down, this has to be one of the most embarrassing post on here in a while.
It is called kitchen table magic for a reason...
Until a few months ago my city (225k inhabitants) didn't even have an LGS. Up to that point my playgroup really missed having one, especially since we only very rarely stumbled into new players and had to order even the smallest singles and equipment for MTG online.
Now that we have one we go there every now and then to play, but mostly to buy MTG stuff. I'd say 1/5 EDH nights we end up in the LGS instead of one of our homes, most of the times if no one of the players attending has enough room to house all of us.
I really enjoy meeting new faces, seeing unknown decks and sifting through binders of cards. But what do i like even more? Playing EDH in sweat pants and slippers, a full fridge nearby, my own bathroom, chit-chatting with non-playing roommates and soothing background music. How on earth would those be excuses to avoid an LGS, anti-social or misanthropic in any effing way?
P.S. - It's a little embarrassing that people actually gave this guy's thread enough thought for this to get to Page 6.
You know you're not obliged to read or post in my threads, right mate? If threads that generate interesting and diverse discussions bother you so much, just ignore them =)
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.
Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
The EDH players you're referring to that don't need an LGS to play are those that are looking for excuses to avoid going to an LGS to play altogether by sitting at home and playing video games regardless If said LGS community is toxic or welcoming. To them they feel self-entitled to the point where they don't want to feel like they're being pressured into lowering their own standards just to have a good time when the reality is that they aren't being pressured at all. Today's society has made them more anti-social and misanthropic to the point where they sit around with decks but choose not to play them due to peer pressure.
Let's do some comparisons, shall we?
My house vs. LGS
Location:
My house: 5 minutes away for the majority of our playgroup, for a supermarket for snacks, multiple fast food outlets for lunch/dinner.
LGS: 40minutes away for the majority of our playgroup.
Bathrooms:
My house: 2
LGS: 0
Space:
My house: enough to have 6 players at the main table, able to have 2 more tables, housing 12 players.
LGS: lots of space. 30-50 people.
Number of people present:
My house: 5-15*
LGS: 20-50
*max of 7 Magic players
Food:
My house: can bring whatever we want to eat. Won't lose our table. Can eat and play.
LGS: must buy snacks from store. Vould lose table when you leave. Can't bring food in.
Risk of getting cards stolen:
My house: no
LGS: yes
Able to control the temperature of the room:
My house: yes
LGS: no
Hours:
My house: 10am-1am
LGS: 9am-10pm
Holds Magic product:
My house: no
LGS: yes
So, when putting it down like that, the only way my LGS beats my house is they carry Magic product.
If you feel that being more comfortable in a non-LGS makes someone "self-entitled to the point where they don't want to feel like they're being pressured into lowering their own standard" then you need to get off that soap box you have and reflect on what you've said.
Look at it this way: I have space to play, amd accomodate my entire playgroup. Should I take up space at an LGS, which could push some people out who don't have a space or playgroup of their own?
Also, I haven't mentioned that LGS's often hold eventz, meaning their play space is unavailable.
Is Commander killing Magic? I doubt it. In my experience, it's sort of like a retirement home for grizzled Magic players. I've drafted, played standard, played modern -- before all that, I played kitchen table 60 (read 70-80) card constructed with tribal themes. Now I play Commander. It's all I want to play. Most of my friends are now, to varying degrees, Commander only players. It's very relaxing to step out of the competitive metagame, to step back in time when the brewing was as important as the playing. There's a pride in deck construction in Commander that can only otherwise be found in Limited, I think, unless you're in the 1% pro echelon with team backing and genius card evaluation skills. I'm not one of those. In Commander, I don't need to be. Commander is saving Magic by offering an environment for players who insist on brewing, but also recognize why brewing isn't going to serve them in the competitive arenas.
Why is an LGS any better for an EDH game than a kitchen table, a restaurant, or a break room? LGSs certainly offer something to a segment of the community, but they are not the exclusive option for casual play. I honestly have no idea where you're getting this idea that people who don't play at LGSs are antisocial misanthropes and I'm equally confused as to what "lowering their own standards" refers to.
Supporting LGSs isn't about supporting LGSs alone, it's to protect the hobby overall. If players end up going to other venues to play EDH then the online stores and big box retailers drive out LGSs. Once the LGS is gone then the larger online retailers will absorb the smaller one's leading to only a handful of places to buy and play in. If an online retailer exceeds a certain threshold of market shares that's when they'll start making special demands of the manufacturer/publisher. When that happens, gaming manufacturers will be forced to start cutting corners in order to keep up with increasing "accommodations" they will need to make for the online retailers.
So say goodbye to high quality MINI's, decent gauge card stock, comprehensive rulebooks, innovative games, etc. as they're being pushed to make more games "mass market friendly" in both price and complexity. Big box retailers are already driving out LGSs while the distributors and big suppliers are doing everything they can to stop it from happening. This isn't speculation as this has happened to other industries due to big box retailers getting big enough to make demands for them and demanded they cut corners in order to reduce the wholesale cost or else they would stop carrying their products. It would result in a 25% loss within the retail market simply because they had no choice but to comply.
As for the idea that people who don't play at LGSs are anti-social misanthropes, it's really a matter of not wanting to be obligated to be around people out in public instead of willing to adapt to the situation where they can make the best of something negative and turn it into something positive for their local playgroup or community. "Lowering their own standards" was referring to people who are willing to put up with immature playgroups for the sake of having fun playing EDH when they feel like they're much better off hanging out with others who are more mature. It can be hard to find good playgroups when it comes to EDH but in my experience you make the best of what you got to find that the people at the table you're playing with makes everything worthwhile.
The amount of gross assumptions in this post is astounding. Not to mention the irony of seeing someone accusing others of being maladjusted, elitist and self-entited because not everyone enjoys melodramatic, judgmental people like the guy I'm quoting from above - they would rather enjoy the company of friends at home than play guys like this at the game store. "These guys are all social rejects. Let me give you an example of why they stay at home, but it's their fault." I think I could overdose on the sheer irony of this post.
P.S. - It's a little embarrassing that people actually gave this guy's thread enough thought for this to get to Page 6.
If someone is deliberately choosing not to go to an LGS to play EDH then why bother playing at home instead when the LGS that supports the hobby that person plays is what's keeping it from going under? That'd be like solely relying on big box retailers for that person's source of cards when they don't carry card singles like LGSs do or by having to go through a long waiting period before their cards come in the mail. LGSs are struggling enough as it is to compete against online retailers because companies like Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro have let them down.
You gotta be kidding me. Hands down, this has to be one of the most embarrassing post on here in a while.
It is called kitchen table magic for a reason...
Until a few months ago my city (225k inhabitants) didn't even have an LGS. Up to that point my playgroup really missed having one, especially since we only very rarely stumbled into new players and had to order even the smallest singles and equipment for MTG online.
Now that we have one we go there every now and then to play, but mostly to buy MTG stuff. I'd say 1/5 EDH nights we end up in the LGS instead of one of our homes, most of the times if no one of the players attending has enough room to house all of us.
I really enjoy meeting new faces, seeing unknown decks and sifting through binders of cards. But what do i like even more? Playing EDH in sweat pants and slippers, a full fridge nearby, my own bathroom, chit-chatting with non-playing roommates and soothing background music. How on earth would those be excuses to avoid an LGS, anti-social or misanthropic in any effing way?
Congratulations, you just played yourself.
I thought "Kitchen Table" Magic was mainly associated with 60 card Casual decks, why does EDH/Commander have to follow when it's one of the most preferred formats aside from Pauper that gives people a reason to continue playing MTG where they don't have to deal with the toxicity of Standard, Modern, and Legacy? I get that the convenience is nice but what good is it going to do If the LGS supporting the hobby you play possibly goes out of business only to make it harder to purchase new cards and build decks? What happens when cards go scarce due to not enough copies in circulation If it gets to the point where everything's bought out?
So, when putting it down like that, the only way my LGS beats my house is they carry Magic product.
If you feel that being more comfortable in a non-LGS makes someone "self-entitled to the point where they don't want to feel like they're being pressured into lowering their own standard" then you need to get off that soap box you have and reflect on what you've said.
Look at it this way: I have space to play, amd accomodate my entire playgroup. Should I take up space at an LGS, which could push some people out who don't have a space or playgroup of their own?
Also, I haven't mentioned that LGS's often hold eventz, meaning their play space is unavailable.
You have a point in regards to table space availability when it comes to LGSs. Sometimes it's the fault of the event organizers who don't take other playgroups into consideration where depending on how often they do it will drive away more customers due to how much space the building is able to take in. That still doesn't mean there's no incentive to go to an LGS anymore.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Why is an LGS any better for an EDH game than a kitchen table, a restaurant, or a break room? LGSs certainly offer something to a segment of the community, but they are not the exclusive option for casual play. I honestly have no idea where you're getting this idea that people who don't play at LGSs are antisocial misanthropes and I'm equally confused as to what "lowering their own standards" refers to.
Supporting LGSs isn't about supporting LGSs alone, it's to protect the hobby overall. If players end up going to other venues to play EDH then the online stores and big box retailers drive out LGSs. Once the LGS is gone then the larger online retailers will absorb the smaller one's leading to only a handful of places to buy and play in. If an online retailer exceeds a certain threshold of market shares that's when they'll start making special demands of the manufacturer/publisher. When that happens, gaming manufacturers will be forced to start cutting corners in order to keep up with increasing "accommodations" they will need to make for the online retailers.
So say goodbye to high quality MINI's, decent gauge card stock, comprehensive rulebooks, innovative games, etc. as they're being pushed to make more games "mass market friendly" in both price and complexity. Big box retailers are already driving out LGSs while the distributors and big suppliers are doing everything they can to stop it from happening. This isn't speculation as this has happened to other industries due to big box retailers getting big enough to make demands for them and demanded they cut corners in order to reduce the wholesale cost or else they would stop carrying their products. It would result in a 25% loss within the retail market simply because they had no choice but to comply.
As for the idea that people who don't play at LGSs are anti-social misanthropes, it's really a matter of not wanting to be obligated to be around people out in public instead of willing to adapt to the situation where they can make the best of something negative and turn it into something positive for their local playgroup or community. "Lowering their own standards" was referring to people who are willing to put up with immature playgroups for the sake of having fun playing EDH when they feel like they're much better off hanging out with others who are much more mature. It can be hard to find good playgroups when it comes to EDH but in my experience you make the best of what you got to find that the people at the table you're playing with makes everything worthwhile.
The amount of gross assumptions in this post is astounding. Not to mention the irony of seeing someone accusing others of being maladjusted, elitist and self-entited because not everyone enjoys melodramatic, judgmental people like the guy I'm quoting from above - they would rather enjoy the company of friends at home than play guys like this at the game store. "These guys are all social rejects. Let me give you an example of why they stay at home, but it's their fault." I think I could overdose on the sheer irony of this post.
P.S. - It's a little embarrassing that people actually gave this guy's thread enough thought for this to get to Page 6.
If someone is deliberately choosing not to go to an LGS to play EDH then why bother playing at home instead when the LGS that supports the hobby that person plays is what's keeping it from going under? That'd be like solely relying on big box retailers for that person's source of cards when they don't carry card singles like LGSs do or by having to go through a waiting period before their cards come in the mail. LGSs are struggling enough as it is to compete against online retailers because companies like Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro have let them down.
So everybody needs to play a game that was designed to be played at home in the store to ensure that the hobby doesn't go under, despite the fact that many, many areas don't have stores within a 40 minute + drive, and its better to play with randos then friends.
Also, if I don't buy snacks at the LGS, I'm doing **** all to help their business. If all I want to do is play, all I'm doing is taking up space. I don't see how playing edh at am LGS helps them. Drafting does, and playing in tournaments does.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
So everybody needs to play a game that was designed to be played at home in the store to ensure that the hobby doesn't go under, despite the fact that many, many areas don't have stores within a 40 minute + drive, and its better to play with randos then friends.
Also, if I don't buy snacks at the LGS, I'm doing **** all to help their business. If all I want to do is play, all I'm doing is taking up space. I don't see how playing edh at am LGS helps them. Drafting does, and playing in tournaments does.
You're making it sound like as If MTG was meant to be played as a Board Game not a Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game that's reliant on the LGS to prevent the hobby from going under. I'm not saying it's better to play EDH with random people over friends when the whole point of the gaming genre itself is to directly interact with other people and forge friendships along the way. The reason why there aren't as many LGSs open within a 40 minute+ drive is mainly due to competition, the risks involved, as well as difficulty competing against online retailers. There has to be a viable solution.
I'm aware that there's a sense of guilt for taking up space for other gaming events when the whole point of going to an LGS is to play and hang out with your friends and/or newcomers regardless of what Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game you're playing. I advocated awhile back about the idea of Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro officially sanctioning Competitive EDH in much the same way they did with Pauper just recently which seems to be the other go to format over Standard that could give more MTG players a reason to show up more often at their LGS.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
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What nostalgia are you talking about? As I illustrated earlier, at the competitive level, the best players found the best decks really fast. The rest of the casual players were sitting around having no idea what they were doing and making terrible decks out of garbage cards. How is that any different today? There are plenty of garbage decks and inexperienced casual new players who have no idea what they are doing either today.
Again, how is that any different today? You can still make a terrible deck to play with your friends, and then take it to a store and get dominated by good decks. What nostalgic feeling are you talking about? You sure are vague here. No real examples.
Again, it always has been with Inquest magazine, but shared knowledge and article took longer to spread the information around. A perfect example is the Sly deck which established the basic ratio of lands, spells and creatures for a fast aggressive burn deck that is still copied to this day.
The game is always evolving. When I started laying, "Draw-go" control was the only real way to play control for years. only in more recent times has that style completely died and been replaced with "tap out control," which is thanks to better cards being made. Cards with can take an active role in control instead of just a passive one. Blue Black Faeries was the start, but it certainly set the new standard of that style of play, where you can cast game changing creatures and take active control of games. Before faeiries, Sea Stompy was toying with the idea, but never took over Standard. The seed had been planted though and it grew from there. The game is always evolving and generally getting better. Are you nostalgic for the days of Ebony Rhino? I don't get it.
I can ONLY assume you mean cards like from alpha showing a pentagram, with its bondage faerie, and how magic
got rid of demons and replaced them with horrorsoops demons were brought back over 15 years ago. Maybe you are talking about how there are finally gay and transgender characters? If so, then you are coming off as bigoted, which I will happily assume you are not, as that would be the dumbest thing to complain about and make everything else you say irrelevant.You really had ought to read more about resonance and the design philosophy from Magic 2010 onward. In a nutshell, when the first sets came out, they had a ot of resonance. Then over the years, with the creation of brand specific intellectual property (IP), that resonance was lost. Everyone knows what an angel, vampire, demon, dragon, elf, goblin, lightning bolt, fireball, and so forth are. When you hold one of those iconic cards, without even knowing the rules, you have certain expectations as to what they will do in game. Howeve,r what is a new player to the game going to think when they open a pack of New Phyrexia going to think? What is a Phyrexian? I have never heard of one of those outside of magic.
You see, they can get away with it with Eldrazi as cosmic eldritch horrors stolen from HP Lovecraft, Unicron fro transformers, Galactus from Marvel Comics, and so forth. Even the Titans from Greek myth. Old gods who have returned and you are but an insignificant ant to them.
The point being, that magic over the last 9 years or so has made a big push to return resonance to the game, and that you couldn't be further from the truth. Be it Innistrad and out return, Ahmanket's Egypt theme, Khans/Dragons of Tarkir, and so forth. The sets ooze story and resonance more than any sets since maybe Arabian Knights.
You are no longer complaining about commander. You have become the "Old man yells at cloud" joke in the Simpsons at this point. You are just complaining about how you see magic as a whole,and you are demonstrably wrong. Comically wrong. "I can write a 10 page essay showing you how wrong you are but don't want to waste my time because it isn't worth it" kind of wrong.
No, there isn't. If I cared enough, i would ask to meet you on Magic Workstation to play old school 40 card 1993 magic with you and just win turn one all the time while you can play lands and Savannah lions or what ever casual jank you want to play and then you can run away with some excuse or complaint. Otherwise, you will also play a competitive turn 1 win combo deck and it comes down to who wins the coin flip, and we really might as well not even play magic... or we can use a ban list. oops, now we are going down the slippery slope that real magic went down that led us to today.
Maybe you want to play 60 card 4x copy magic? I will still beat you turn one every game with power 9 + Demonic tutor, channel, fireball, and so forth. Maybe we still need a ban or restricted list.
Shall I continue? Magic was far more broken back then that it is today.
You are tugging at the heart strings of nostalgia for a day when you and your friends played with bad cards and didn't know any better. That has nothing to do with the era of magic, but your own ignorance. Once you open Pandora's box of knowledge, there is no closing it.
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When it comes to commander, the lack of variance is the result of tutors. the ability to consistently get what you want from your deck is what makes games repetitive and streamlined. If you want to play commander with higher variance, then just start a group where the best tutors are frowned upon and everyone agrees to play without them. After all, when you can't go find anything you want in a 99 card singleton deck and are at the mercy of what you draw, then redundancy becomes king, and still some of the variance vanishes because you have percentages of similar effects with different names, and some being more powerful than others.
That is the nature of this game. You cannot change that, no matter how much fist waving at the sky you want to do about these darned kids and their elder dragons and their highlanders.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I'm a little confused here. Drain Life was saying that the best players find the best decks regardless of era; you argue that was only true in the past and today everybody netdecks. Where do you think that netdecks come from? They're not, like, spontaneously generated by the internet. They are the result of top players innovating, taking their decks to tournaments, and then being refined through more innovation based on results and perceived metagames. In other words, like Drain Life said, exactly how it always has been.
As for the anecdote, that sounds more like a communication breakdown, maybe on your part, maybe on your opponent's part, than any fundamental problem with the game.
Commander isn't advertised as a competitive format when the problem is that it's become the only viable format for most players to turn to due to the toxicity of Standard, Modern, and Legacy. As an end result, it ends up hurting all these other formats that are needed to drive growth for local game stores in order to stay in business so that players actually have a venue to play Commander. Casual players need to understand that Competitive players are the lifeblood of MTG, they are what drives Standard and Modern in order to make it possible for Casual players to play Commander. It's really a matter of instant gratification when it comes to deck building philosophy, do you choose to deliberately play with a low-powered deck at the expense of having less fun than your opponent(s) or do you choose to deliberately play with a high-powered deck in order to get more enjoyment out of Commander games than your opponent(s)? While the latter may seem like a game of collusion (or Solitaire If it's Duel Commander) often times it's increasingly difficult to find the right balance.
Most players often base their decks' strategy off of their Commander's abilities in mind without trying to base these decks off of flavor alone because it's the easiest way to establish a foundation for what kind of Commander decks' they're trying to build. Vanilla Commanders are hard to build around unless you're able to add a flavor sub-theme to them, focus on Glorious Anthem abilities, or go Tribal. I do think that trying to build a Commander deck based on flavor alone can get in the way of what your Commander is wanting to accomplish even If it tends to go against the interests of your own playgroups. I do think that there's this perceived notion that every competitive player netdecks nowadays when that's not always the case when I think the real issue here is that there's some competitive players who aren't willing to innovate without relying on the Internet to get better. Patrick Chapin once said, "If you don't brew you have no heart, If you don't netdeck you have no brains."
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I know why..I just don't like it and in fact IMO those people have done more harm than good to the game.
Ofc if you're the only precon at a table of fast combo decks then sure, you probably won't have much fun, but as long as you're fairly close in power level multiplayer games tend to regulate themselves a fair bit. I don't think the balance is difficult to achieve at all, so long as you have some familiarity with the meta.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Even getting past all that, EDH players don't need an LGS to play. It makes it easier to find players, especially if you don't have an established group, and it makes it easier to decide a location for some groups, but there's not any particular incentive to play at a shop much of the time. My group usually plays in a bar. We've also played in houses/apartments, restaurants, and a hospital. I can't tell you the last time I saw a constructed event outside of an LGS or large space reserved for that purpose. If either group is subsidizing the other, it's casual players propping up competitive players.
All the info I see says that singles and packaged product are both profitable, but different stores do better with different things (although I welcome more detailed info, and if I remember I might ask my LGS owner). Personally I feel like I blow a lot of money on drafts relative to anything I see constructed players spending, but then I don't buy any singles from my LGSs as they don't usually have the selection I need (I do usually buy my sleeves from them, though, so between that and the drafts I think I do my patriotic duty).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Its far worse then that, Commander is the gateway to Legacy. Commander allows you to have a taiste of some of the most powerful cards that are around. Manadrain, Sol Ring, Duel lands, Fetch lands, Sol Lands, Mass land destruction, Mass creature desturction,Stp, PTE, FoF, Mana rocks, skullclamp and honest god combo. No matter what the standard people tell you, people LIKE playing good cards. People like playing powerful cards. After someone has sunk their teeth in to EDH sorry my age is showing Commander powerful cards, gotten used to that smooth mana, That powerful removal, The good discard and land destruction. People don't want to go back to Shock and Murder when Doomblade and lighting bolt are on the docket. Wizards also printed them in mass The only good time they have printed a GOOD precon was Commander precons, Sol ring used to be hard to find(not rarity but actuly supply side) now they are flooded and they did this with LOTS of format staples. Basically they did with Commander what they SHOULD have done with Modern. I have noticed at least in my area that as commander grows so too does legacy. These people don't go back to T2 becuase they have had a taiste of good cards. Cards that standard won't give them. Mostly Commander, Legacy/draft and Modern in that order of popularity.
On margins, you can get a rough estimate by looking at buying and selling prices online. Grabbing the format staples for standard from mtggoldfish and looking at TCGplayer market buy/sell prices, average margin in USD of the top 10 cards in standard is $1.25, or 142.7%. If you pull out the commons that most players can reasonably be assumed to have (Negate and Duress) to make it a more accurate picture, those numbers are $1.54 and 73.1%. Highest margin is $4.37 for The Scarab God, lowest is $0.31 for Bomat Courier. For constructed events, the only one I go to on an even semi-regular basis is a legacy weekly that pays out 100% of entry fees in store credit (so margins for the event are just those of everything else in store, though it acts a lot like an interest free loan in many cases). I doubt events with less generous payouts are making much more than $1-2/head, or they're likely to have trouble drawing enough of a crowd to make it worth it. Compare that to water, soda, chips, or candy all of which can easily be purchased in bulk on the order of a few USD per dozen or less and sold individually for $0.75-1.00, a profit of $0.50-0.75 (2-300%). Boxes are sold by distributors for somewhere in the $70-80 range, then resold whole for $90-100+ or pieced into packs with MSRP $4 ($144 total, $126 at $3.50 a pack - still $46 profit). Selling a case of water or a box of loose packs arguably makes as much as someone coming in and buying a standard deck complete if you didn't open boxes for the singles, and I know a lot more people who are willing to buy a bottle or two of water each time they play than I do buying full decks in a single purchase. I'm sure there are outliers who do very well on large singles sales. I suspect the majority are relying on high volumes of small sales of a variety of products.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Seems to me that Commander is one of the things that keeps players playing Magic. And going to their FLGS. And buying product.
For example, I’m always on the lookout for generals to consider, cards to replace others, etc.
Most of the EDH players I know (which is most of the Magic players I know, which is many :)) also play other formats. So there’s that too.
Why is an LGS any better for an EDH game than a kitchen table, a restaurant, or a break room? LGSs certainly offer something to a segment of the community, but they are not the exclusive option for casual play. I honestly have no idea where you're getting this idea that people who don't play at LGSs are antisocial misanthropes and I'm equally confused as to what "lowering their own standards" refers to.
The amount of gross assumptions in this post is astounding. Not to mention the irony of seeing someone accusing others of being maladjusted, elitist and self-entited because not everyone enjoys melodramatic, judgmental people like the guy I'm quoting from above - they would rather enjoy the company of friends at home than play guys like this at the game store. "These guys are all social rejects. Let me give you an example of why they stay at home, but it's their fault." I think I could overdose on the sheer irony of this post.
P.S. - It's a little embarrassing that people actually gave this guy's thread enough thought for this to get to Page 6.
(Also known as Xenphire)
It is called kitchen table magic for a reason...
Until a few months ago my city (225k inhabitants) didn't even have an LGS. Up to that point my playgroup really missed having one, especially since we only very rarely stumbled into new players and had to order even the smallest singles and equipment for MTG online.
Now that we have one we go there every now and then to play, but mostly to buy MTG stuff. I'd say 1/5 EDH nights we end up in the LGS instead of one of our homes, most of the times if no one of the players attending has enough room to house all of us.
I really enjoy meeting new faces, seeing unknown decks and sifting through binders of cards. But what do i like even more? Playing EDH in sweat pants and slippers, a full fridge nearby, my own bathroom, chit-chatting with non-playing roommates and soothing background music. How on earth would those be excuses to avoid an LGS, anti-social or misanthropic in any effing way?
Congratulations, you just played yourself.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Let's do some comparisons, shall we?
My house vs. LGS
Location:
My house: 5 minutes away for the majority of our playgroup, for a supermarket for snacks, multiple fast food outlets for lunch/dinner.
LGS: 40minutes away for the majority of our playgroup.
Bathrooms:
My house: 2
LGS: 0
Space:
My house: enough to have 6 players at the main table, able to have 2 more tables, housing 12 players.
LGS: lots of space. 30-50 people.
Number of people present:
My house: 5-15*
LGS: 20-50
*max of 7 Magic players
Food:
My house: can bring whatever we want to eat. Won't lose our table. Can eat and play.
LGS: must buy snacks from store. Vould lose table when you leave. Can't bring food in.
Risk of getting cards stolen:
My house: no
LGS: yes
Able to control the temperature of the room:
My house: yes
LGS: no
Hours:
My house: 10am-1am
LGS: 9am-10pm
Holds Magic product:
My house: no
LGS: yes
So, when putting it down like that, the only way my LGS beats my house is they carry Magic product.
If you feel that being more comfortable in a non-LGS makes someone "self-entitled to the point where they don't want to feel like they're being pressured into lowering their own standard" then you need to get off that soap box you have and reflect on what you've said.
Look at it this way: I have space to play, amd accomodate my entire playgroup. Should I take up space at an LGS, which could push some people out who don't have a space or playgroup of their own?
Also, I haven't mentioned that LGS's often hold eventz, meaning their play space is unavailable.
So say goodbye to high quality MINI's, decent gauge card stock, comprehensive rulebooks, innovative games, etc. as they're being pushed to make more games "mass market friendly" in both price and complexity. Big box retailers are already driving out LGSs while the distributors and big suppliers are doing everything they can to stop it from happening. This isn't speculation as this has happened to other industries due to big box retailers getting big enough to make demands for them and demanded they cut corners in order to reduce the wholesale cost or else they would stop carrying their products. It would result in a 25% loss within the retail market simply because they had no choice but to comply.
As for the idea that people who don't play at LGSs are anti-social misanthropes, it's really a matter of not wanting to be obligated to be around people out in public instead of willing to adapt to the situation where they can make the best of something negative and turn it into something positive for their local playgroup or community. "Lowering their own standards" was referring to people who are willing to put up with immature playgroups for the sake of having fun playing EDH when they feel like they're much better off hanging out with others who are more mature. It can be hard to find good playgroups when it comes to EDH but in my experience you make the best of what you got to find that the people at the table you're playing with makes everything worthwhile. If someone is deliberately choosing not to go to an LGS to play EDH then why bother playing at home instead when the LGS that supports the hobby that person plays is what's keeping it from going under? That'd be like solely relying on big box retailers for that person's source of cards when they don't carry card singles like LGSs do or by having to go through a long waiting period before their cards come in the mail. LGSs are struggling enough as it is to compete against online retailers because companies like Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro have let them down. I thought "Kitchen Table" Magic was mainly associated with 60 card Casual decks, why does EDH/Commander have to follow when it's one of the most preferred formats aside from Pauper that gives people a reason to continue playing MTG where they don't have to deal with the toxicity of Standard, Modern, and Legacy? I get that the convenience is nice but what good is it going to do If the LGS supporting the hobby you play possibly goes out of business only to make it harder to purchase new cards and build decks? What happens when cards go scarce due to not enough copies in circulation If it gets to the point where everything's bought out? You have a point in regards to table space availability when it comes to LGSs. Sometimes it's the fault of the event organizers who don't take other playgroups into consideration where depending on how often they do it will drive away more customers due to how much space the building is able to take in. That still doesn't mean there's no incentive to go to an LGS anymore.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
So everybody needs to play a game that was designed to be played at home in the store to ensure that the hobby doesn't go under, despite the fact that many, many areas don't have stores within a 40 minute + drive, and its better to play with randos then friends.
Also, if I don't buy snacks at the LGS, I'm doing **** all to help their business. If all I want to do is play, all I'm doing is taking up space. I don't see how playing edh at am LGS helps them. Drafting does, and playing in tournaments does.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'm aware that there's a sense of guilt for taking up space for other gaming events when the whole point of going to an LGS is to play and hang out with your friends and/or newcomers regardless of what Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game you're playing. I advocated awhile back about the idea of Wizards of the Coast/Hasbro officially sanctioning Competitive EDH in much the same way they did with Pauper just recently which seems to be the other go to format over Standard that could give more MTG players a reason to show up more often at their LGS.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta