That is a card I generally don't like because of how easy it is to put into a lot of decks to just create a win condition where one did not exist before. I genuinely find Scepter Reversal as a much more oppressive thing than Paradox Engine could ever be just for the investment needed and the creation of mana without the needing as much outside spells.
I have also seen it cast just to fuel some big X spells Torment of Hailfire is a common one in this case that doesn't need the biggest X to be severely damaging.
That is a card I generally don't like because of how easy it is to put into a lot of decks to just create a win condition where one did not exist before. I genuinely find Scepter Reversal as a much more oppressive thing than Paradox Engine could ever be just for the investment needed and the creation of mana without the needing as much outside spells.
I have also seen it cast just to fuel some big X spells Torment of Hailfire is a common one in this case that doesn't need the biggest X to be severely damaging.
A generally agreeable assessment. The scepter reversal combo is easy as hell to use. Most of the time if you can assemble it the game will end on the spot. Paradox Engine gets a lot more flak than it deserves in this respect, despite requiring a lot more building around to go off.
Difference between dramatic scepter and paradox engine:
Good people can convince themselves it's OK to play paradox engine. You've given up being a good guy when you're jamming dramatic scepter.
Agree, in general. I didn't say PE isn't gross, it is if you have the environment to support it in dorks or rocks - I should know, it's part of my Dralnu build and it totally wins games. Sceptereversal is just a drag and drop where there's a lot more setup involved in Paradox. Sort of the difference between a 2-card insta-win combo and a 4-card jank combo. Both are gross if they go off, one just requires a little more finagling than the other.
well, it's a 2 card win combo with 3 mana worth of rocks that also make colored mana you need, and the spell outlets you need to win. PE takes marginally more setup but "a lot more" I wouldn't say
Yeah, I won't overly defend it, it's a fairly degenerate card. I don't see the concern over it being banned and such, but then I try not to abuse it overly, knowing how easily that can happen.
On one hand, I wish there were enough shuffle punishing cards to make an edh deck dedicated to them and Extract effects. On the other hand, shuffling takes forever, so it'd be miserable to play. On the 3rd hand, this card doesn't trigger if you make someone else shuffle, only if they do it to themselves, so screw that.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I see this as an answer against search. Imo too much of a silver bullet in the 100. I wonder how often it would actually work out when gathered and cast.
I've only ever seen this card do nothing or end the game immediately.
You know, the funny thing is I think this card really encapsulates most of everything that went wrong with Kaladesh. Like, we have the Not Avengers getting ready to fight the Not Empire, it goes broken with artifacts, it tries to be sneaky about its brokenness ("Oh what's the worst that this cheap common can do-wait what, seriously?"), and we have Ajani sitting in the back making strange faces at us until he brute forces his way into our nightmares.
Yeah I evaluated yesterday's card because I had a lot more to say about that than I did today's card. Like, all I can think of for Widespread Panic is that it's a straight to home video sequel to Stranglehold.
definitely an interesting card and not too expensive, but yeah I dont know if just that is worth a whole card slot. Unlike stranglehold which hoses two things, this could probably see play if it added one more relevant hose.
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The biggest problem with tutor hate is, it's basically only ramp hate. Usually when you're tutoring, it's for a win condition. A nice thought, but for 1 more, you get what you really want.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Ramp decks would love this card, so UGx would make this miserable.
EDIT: Wait, I think I misunderstood that...you have to even have the COLOR of the spell? Then yeah, I would say bad card. Not quite so 'bad it's funny', as void believes, IMO.
Ramp decks would love this card, so UGx would make this miserable.
EDIT: Wait, I think I misunderstood that...you have to even have the COLOR of the spell? Then yeah, I would say bad card. Not quite so 'bad it's funny', as void believes, IMO.
It's an odd one - if I see someone casting it from their hand, I'm usually not that scared. If I see someone trying to put it on an Isochron Scepter, I'm in full panic mode....
I mean there's not much to panic about over Isochron Scepter resolving and showing off a Dramatic Reversal. Unless the Dramatic Scepter player is an idiot, the game is over on the spot, or somebody has an answer on the spot.
... what is this?
Maybe in Sen Triplets? Oh wait, it's a nonbo there too lol
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How i feel about competitive players and casual players in EDH: The competitive are german tourists, the casual are italian tourists, both in a italian beach. The italians asking themselves "why are the germans here?" make a legitimate question, the answer is because the beach is beautiful, no matter the country you came from. The italians wanting to ban the germans are dumb, because if the germans pay for their stay and follow the rules like everyone else, they have the right to be in the beach. Hovewer, if the germans started to ask themselves "why are the italians here?"... they would be dumb as hell.
It pairs nicely with Chromatic Lantern, and in fringe cases opponents can still counter each others' stuff when the color requirements aren't too high. There's a lot of dual/tri-color decks out there and plenty of overlap. UGX could still benefit from it a lot by both being able to make a ton of mana and use it to help win counter wars. Big X spells would be hard for them to pay the cmc while you could still pay 1-3 for most counters.
Run it in a 5-color deck with all the cards that cost WUBRG?
I have a feeling it plays like a worse Zur's Weirding - everyone stops and kills you so the game can progress. Except maybe not, since if people are slamming big dumb spells they probably won't leave up the mana to counter any other big, dumb spells, so maybe it just gets ignored.
I've played with and against Ice Cave before. Most of the time it just backfires on who ever uses it. It does have the fun of making mana rocks and half-decent equipment never resolve.
It also does very weird political things. Trying to buy favor with the entire table to let things resolve is a thing that happens more often than people think. Then there's the ramp deck's ability to counter a lot more stuff than everyone else assuming the right color combo or lands.
How does this work with split cards? if i cast bound//determined, just the determined side, does that mean that other players only need a UG to counter it? or the cost of the whole card?
Also, does it allow for example each copy of a stormed hunting pack to get countered? the copies are just put on the stack, and not played, right? the original card that triggers the storm ability can get countered though, i get that.
Combos with vexing shusher? Actually, does it? if i cast a spell, ice cave triggers, i hold priority and shusher the spell. is that right? or is it cast spell, hold priority, shusher the spell, then ice cave on the stack? in that case, wouldn't the spell be countered before the shusher ability stops it from being countered?
I have also seen it cast just to fuel some big X spells Torment of Hailfire is a common one in this case that doesn't need the biggest X to be severely damaging.
A generally agreeable assessment. The scepter reversal combo is easy as hell to use. Most of the time if you can assemble it the game will end on the spot. Paradox Engine gets a lot more flak than it deserves in this respect, despite requiring a lot more building around to go off.
Good people can convince themselves it's OK to play paradox engine. You've given up being a good guy when you're jamming dramatic scepter.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Agree, in general. I didn't say PE isn't gross, it is if you have the environment to support it in dorks or rocks - I should know, it's part of my Dralnu build and it totally wins games. Sceptereversal is just a drag and drop where there's a lot more setup involved in Paradox. Sort of the difference between a 2-card insta-win combo and a 4-card jank combo. Both are gross if they go off, one just requires a little more finagling than the other.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
On one hand, I wish there were enough shuffle punishing cards to make an edh deck dedicated to them and Extract effects. On the other hand, shuffling takes forever, so it'd be miserable to play. On the 3rd hand, this card doesn't trigger if you make someone else shuffle, only if they do it to themselves, so screw that.
You know, the funny thing is I think this card really encapsulates most of everything that went wrong with Kaladesh. Like, we have the Not Avengers getting ready to fight the Not Empire, it goes broken with artifacts, it tries to be sneaky about its brokenness ("Oh what's the worst that this cheap common can do-wait what, seriously?"), and we have Ajani sitting in the back making strange faces at us until he brute forces his way into our nightmares.
Yeah I evaluated yesterday's card because I had a lot more to say about that than I did today's card. Like, all I can think of for Widespread Panic is that it's a straight to home video sequel to Stranglehold.
0/10
Really though, I like this design space, but I wish is was on a bear.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
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On phasing:
Bad card or miserable card? Porque no los dos?
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Ramp decks would love this card, so UGx would make this miserable.
EDIT: Wait, I think I misunderstood that...you have to even have the COLOR of the spell? Then yeah, I would say bad card. Not quite so 'bad it's funny', as void believes, IMO.
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
I’d play it with Mycosynth Lattice and Unwinding Clock.
....oh, that's why.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
... what is this?
Maybe in Sen Triplets? Oh wait, it's a nonbo there too lol
Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
I have a feeling it plays like a worse Zur's Weirding - everyone stops and kills you so the game can progress. Except maybe not, since if people are slamming big dumb spells they probably won't leave up the mana to counter any other big, dumb spells, so maybe it just gets ignored.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
It also does very weird political things. Trying to buy favor with the entire table to let things resolve is a thing that happens more often than people think. Then there's the ramp deck's ability to counter a lot more stuff than everyone else assuming the right color combo or lands.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
B Toshiro Umezawa
BG Pharika, God of Affliction - Necromancy and Politics
WWW The Church of Heliod
WBR Zurgo, Helmsmasher
RG Wort, the Raidmother
UBR Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
How does this work with split cards? if i cast bound//determined, just the determined side, does that mean that other players only need a UG to counter it? or the cost of the whole card?
Also, does it allow for example each copy of a stormed hunting pack to get countered? the copies are just put on the stack, and not played, right? the original card that triggers the storm ability can get countered though, i get that.
Combos with vexing shusher? Actually, does it? if i cast a spell, ice cave triggers, i hold priority and shusher the spell. is that right? or is it cast spell, hold priority, shusher the spell, then ice cave on the stack? in that case, wouldn't the spell be countered before the shusher ability stops it from being countered?
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom